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Posted By: FallCreekFan “Sensibly priced” - 02/12/22 05:24 PM
I see that McKay Brown has been sold. Have always admired his lovely round actions. Had to smile, though, when he stated that he was “truly delighted” that his “sensibly priced” guns would continue to be made. The side-by-sides start at $78,000.

Regardless, thank you, sir, for your marvelous guns.


https://shootingsportsman.com/mckay-brown-changes-ownership/
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/13/22 01:19 PM
Per kilogram cost a best gun goes about 30 000 dollars while a Ferrari is only about 150.

I have seen the hand stitching of the leather interiors of high end cars, and please do not try to tell me that that type of craftsmanship is not on par with lock making or stocking. It is.

Back in the golden days of gunmaking, the early 1900s, a best gun cost a 1/4 of a naval officers annual salary. Today it costs about double. Something simply does not add up.

Let us hope the new owners will make round actions truly affordable.
Posted By: SKB Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/13/22 01:26 PM
The cost of labor has risen greatly since the early 1900's.

How does your cost per kilo equation work out for a new Rolex?

78k for new round action, nobody is getting rich and compared to a new London gun it is a bargain. Overhead these days is brutal, I do not expect to see new Best guns coming down in price anytime soon.
Posted By: John Roberts Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/13/22 04:03 PM
To multi-millionaires, none of the conspicuous consumption items like Ferraris, Rolexes, or London Best doubles prices are of real concern.
JR
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/13/22 05:30 PM
0
Originally Posted by Shotgunlover
Per kilogram cost a best gun goes about 30 000 dollars while a Ferrari is only about 150.

I have seen the hand stitching of the leather interiors of high end cars, and please do not try to tell me that that type of craftsmanship is not on par with lock making or stocking. It is.

Back in the golden days of gunmaking, the early 1900s, a best gun cost a 1/4 of a naval officers annual salary. Today it costs about double. Something simply does not add up.

Let us hope the new owners will make round actions truly affordable.

I don’t believe the standard of living that a turn of the last century laborer had is comparable to someone in the trade, today.

Remember the famous photo of the English stocker, working into his 90s, (his name escapes me at the moment) who was given a pair of briar pipes in thanks for his decades of labor? I ‘gotta believe a stock maker, working a shift in his 90s, is a guy who is financially cornered, and really doesn’t have a choice in the matter. He is blessed that he can, but, I’d bet he wouldn’t if he had an option.

Those guys aren’t there, anymore. They don’t have to be. That is built into the gun price. There are places where the same turn of the century business model could be utilized, today, think North Korea, China, India, or, anyplace else you wouldn’t want to live. They could make it happen.

But, you wouldn’t buy the gun.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/13/22 05:43 PM
I am reminded of the YouTube channel about a car called, “Influenzo”.
The aspirational market is real, and robust.

You can have all kinds of upscale items, just not simultaneously.

If I lived in perpetual sunshine, I would definitely want to drive a 308 for fun. It’s like a go cart for adults.
But “Influenzo” makes it real. Aston Martin’s can be even worse!

A white Chevrolet Impala with tinted windows will have to do.
Posted By: LeFusil Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/13/22 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
0
Originally Posted by Shotgunlover
Per kilogram cost a best gun goes about 30 000 dollars while a Ferrari is only about 150.

I have seen the hand stitching of the leather interiors of high end cars, and please do not try to tell me that that type of craftsmanship is not on par with lock making or stocking. It is.

Back in the golden days of gunmaking, the early 1900s, a best gun cost a 1/4 of a naval officers annual salary. Today it costs about double. Something simply does not add up.

Let us hope the new owners will make round actions truly affordable.

I don’t believe the standard of living that a turn of the last century laborer had is comparable to someone in the trade, today.

Remember the famous photo of the English stocker, working into his 90s, (his name escapes me at the moment) who was given a pair of briar pipes in thanks for his decades of labor? I ‘gotta believe a stock maker, working a shift in his 90s, is a guy who is financially cornered, and really doesn’t have a choice in the matter. He is blessed that he can, but, I’d bet he wouldn’t if he had an option.

Those guys aren’t there, anymore. They don’t have to be. That is built into the gun price. There are places where the same turn of the century business model could be utilized, today, think North Korea, China, India, or, anyplace else you wouldn’t want to live. They could make it happen.

But, you wouldn’t buy the gun.

Best,
Ted

Ebenezer Hands. Stocker for Wilkes. He did it that long because he could and that’s what people from his generation did. Retirement was considered a death sentence. Both of my grandfathers were the same way….one stopped farming in his late 60’s and then worked on a crew that built bridges.
The other was forced into retirement in his late 60’s when the plantation closed down and then went to work cleaning the schools. They didn’t have to keep working, they both were smart with their money….they did it because they wanted to. Old school mentalities. Such a foreign way of thinking in this day and age, hard to understand for us modern folk.
I doubt Ebenezer Hands took months off from work to go hunting and he definitely didn’t tell folks he wasn’t taking on anymore work. I know a few old school trained guys that still think the same way Ebenezer did.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/13/22 06:08 PM
That’s him. Might just be me, but, the look on his face in the photo didn’t seem to be one of gratitude. More like disbelief.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: LeFusil Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/13/22 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
That’s him. Might just be me, but, the look on his face in the photo didn’t seem to be one of gratitude. More like disbelief.

Best,
Ted

The interpretation of his look to me is “quit bothering me, I’ve got work to do”. 😂
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/13/22 06:35 PM
I’ve known people like that. But, they weren’t in their 90s.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: LeFusil Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/13/22 06:38 PM
Well, most don’t make it into their 90’s either. Working or otherwise.
Posted By: Brittany Man Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/13/22 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by LeFusil
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
0
Originally Posted by Shotgunlover
Per kilogram cost a best gun goes about 30 000 dollars while a Ferrari is only about 150.

I have seen the hand stitching of the leather interiors of high end cars, and please do not try to tell me that that type of craftsmanship is not on par with lock making or stocking. It is.

Back in the golden days of gunmaking, the early 1900s, a best gun cost a 1/4 of a naval officers annual salary. Today it costs about double. Something simply does not add up.

Let us hope the new owners will make round actions truly affordable.

I don’t believe the standard of living that a turn of the last century laborer had is comparable to someone in the trade, today.

Remember the famous photo of the English stocker, working into his 90s, (his name escapes me at the moment) who was given a pair of briar pipes in thanks for his decades of labor? I ‘gotta believe a stock maker, working a shift in his 90s, is a guy who is financially cornered, and really doesn’t have a choice in the matter. He is blessed that he can, but, I’d bet he wouldn’t if he had an option.

Those guys aren’t there, anymore. They don’t have to be. That is built into the gun price. There are places where the same turn of the century business model could be utilized, today, think North Korea, China, India, or, anyplace else you wouldn’t want to live. They could make it happen.

But, you wouldn’t buy the gun.

Best,
Ted

Ebenezer Hands. Stocker for Wilkes. He did it that long because he could and that’s what people from his generation did. Retirement was considered a death sentence. Both of my grandfathers were the same way….one stopped farming in his late 60’s and then worked on a crew that built bridges.
The other was forced into retirement in his late 60’s when the plantation closed down and then went to work cleaning the schools. They didn’t have to keep working, they both were smart with their money….they did it because they wanted to. Old school mentalities. Such a foreign way of thinking in this day and age, hard to understand for us modern folk.
I doubt Ebenezer Hands took months off from work to go hunting and he definitely didn’t tell folks he wasn’t taking on anymore work. I know a few old school trained guys that still think the same way Ebenezer did.

I agree with the sentiment but the photo of Ebenezer Hands is in Don Masters book on Atkins, Grant & Lang page 252 . The presenter is W.R.H. Robson of AG&L & Hands is listed a former Watson stocker.

Masters mentions Hands again in the section on AG&L in his Churchill book on page 306 that Hands was still working for AG&L & "as a special concession to his age, he was allowed to leave work at 4PM" & that he died in 1962 @ 91.
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 08:40 AM
Bruce Owens, the former production manager at Purdeys wrote an article in Shooting Sportsman back in 2012 if I recall right. His revelations about the use of CNC machinery and the economic benefits resulting from this move are interesting. The move decreased dependence on hand work. So let us stop using that "hand work is expensive" excuse.

Modern technology also reduced inventories and the related costs. The writer poses the question whether any of these economies is reflected in the final retail price and comments that this is a question for the marketing people.

Perazzi and their barrel batch testing comes to mind as a case for comparison. They waste one in every 60 barrel sets in pressure testing. They are constantly evolving their product, yet you can still buy an MX8 for ten thousand Euros. How much more overhead than the Perazzi factory do the British gunmakers bear to justify their astronomical prices!

Last time I checked Perazzi were still located in the relatively expensive industrial area of northern Italy, not in North Korea.

Brand name exploitation and ruthless marketing is at work in some cases. And not just in guns. Any mundane item, ie oil bottles, scarves, knives etc bearing a famous maker's name is marked up to the hilt. Not much R&D or hand work goes into a thermos bottle to quadruple its price, a name stamp it all it takes.
Posted By: SKB Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 10:23 AM
Do you know what a new multi-axis CNC mill(just one of the machines required) costs? Wire EDM, Sinker EDM, CNC lathe? Trained operators and engineers are not cheap. Parts that come off the machines still need a pile of hand work.

Do you know of Ian Clark? Ian supplies many of the Best makers with raw parts including the new rising bites from Rigby. The guns still take many, many hours of highly skilled hand work to complete, even using the most modern technology.

How many guns do Perazzi sell in year? And the British Best makers? Not the same game.


I will agree with you about the oil bottles and scarves.
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 01:10 PM
Back when they still used hand work a best gun cost 100 guineas, a mass produced BSA boxlock about 25. A ratio of four to one. A best was about a quarter of the annual salary of mid to high level government employee, ie armed forces commissioned officer or civil servant. No wonder back then it was normal for a new shooter to be gifted a best on his 21st birthday.

In the 60s my local gunshop, Whaley's in Hornsey road, sold a Baikal IZ27 for 70 pounds, a Remington 1100 for 120, a Webley and Scott for 156. Our local butcher ordered a Holland and Holland for 1500 pounds. At the time a skilled worker at the Ford Dagenham plant earned about 75 pounds a week. We were still in the hand work era yet prices were affordable, for regular people. The ratio between a best and a medium grade boxlock went to about ten to one.

Today prices for best guns are multiples of the annual salaries of the professions mentioned above. I quote those salaries because they are precisely recorded over the years and a reliable comparative standard. The ratio between best and medium grade guns is off the charts.

Perazzi make about 2000 guns a year. Perhaps if the others charged similar prices they might sell more too, and become serious businesses like Perazzi as opposed to gun boutiques.
Posted By: Saskbooknut Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 01:43 PM
My understanding is that Old British gun workers kept working, primarily because they needed the income. They never earned enough to save significant money, and the State Pension wasn't enough to live on.
My Grandfather hit mandatory retirement age as an electrician for the Council, and immediately went to work in an orchard until age 85. His Council pension wouldn't buy a good bottle of Scotch, in his last year's. My Aunt cared for him.
Things were pretty tough for the elderly, in the 60s and 70s in Britain. The situation is still tough for the working poor, with current inflation.
Posted By: canvasback Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 02:06 PM
According to Rocketman's auction data, a vintage London Best from one of the big four will sell for roughly twice what an equivalent gun, in original quality and current condition, from a Birmingham maker would fetch. That extra cost is the cost of the brand value.

No reason to imagine that isn't somewhat true for new guns. Brand value has real impact. And there isn't much value for Purdey, or Boss or DMB not charging for the value inherent in their brand reputation.

The way into the Best gun market is to build a Best gun and sell it for a price that reflects that you have no reputation....no brand value. Much like DMB did 40 years ago.
Posted By: craigd Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by canvasback
....That extra cost is the cost of the brand value.

No reason to imagine that isn't somewhat true for new guns. Brand value has real impact. And there isn't much value for Purdey, or Boss or DMB not charging for the value inherent in their brand reputation....
The perception of value might be why the big name London makers have been purchased by large conglomerates. After profits have been dispersed to companies that have invested in capitalizing on brand reputation, the big names may be operating closer to how McKay Brown does on the shop floor.
Posted By: Nitrah Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 03:57 PM
I worked for one of the large drywall manufacturers for most of my adult career. We charged what the market would bear, sometimes we printed money and other times we laid people off and closed plants. I assume D McKay Brown was smart, so when he started he repaired others guns and when he felt strongly enough started building the RA gun under his name. Pretty sure he gradually raised prices in order to cover overhead and profit knowing with his staff he could only make about 20-30 guns a year. If orders poured in giving him a long backlog he probably raised prices until it leveled off at what he considered a adequate period, say 18 months.
I recall reading years ago that most of the workmen for Purdey's and their kind couldn't afford one of their own guns. If you are a small shop like Mckay Brown why would you not charge the most you can to maintain the business at a good level.
I have a friend with several Mckay Browns and admit a bias as I think they are as nice as any gun I have seen including Purdey's, Holland etc.
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 04:37 PM
And, DMB has a thriving repair and restoration business taking care of the scions of his brand.

They buy a lot, and they sell a lot.
Posted By: Owenjj3 Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 04:45 PM
If you read the article closely, you noticed "Grant is deeply knowledgeable about deploying modern gunmaking processes..." To me, this sounds like the new owner has more, or improved, CNC machining in mind, although I know that DMB was using CNC well before he sold. According to Dallas, David was a pioneer in the use of CNC techniques. Hand finishing was still required and took many hours of painstaking work, even with the CNC head start. Recently, Graham Mackinlay in Scotland sold a DMB SxS that was the "last of the non-CNC" SxS. The statement in the description implied that the early guns were superior. Both of my DMB's are pre-CNC and I must say that you can feel the quality each time you push the top lever (I have no CNC'd guns for reference). With the DMB action, the point at which the top lever lets the barrels fall with the energy from the compressed springs is definitely magical. The tolerances must be so precise. But, of course I am a round action nut and completely biased. If you go to the Southern this year, find one on a table and open it a few times and see if you agree with my sentiments. And ask the vendor, "is this one pre-CNC" and see what they say...
Posted By: SKB Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 04:51 PM
Who was the engraver on your early DMB guns? I know Charles Lee did quite a few of them.
Posted By: gunmaker Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 06:46 PM
New Best quality guns aren’t in the same ballpark as Perazzi because their clientele base doesn’t want such, nor is that the branding such manufacturers have built. Us po’ folk will just have to be happy with our Perazzi’s and second hand junk.
Posted By: gunmaker Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by Owenjj3
If you read the article closely, you noticed "Grant is deeply knowledgeable about deploying modern gunmaking processes..." To me, this sounds like the new owner has more, or improved, CNC machining in mind, although I know that DMB was using CNC well before he sold. According to Dallas, David was a pioneer in the use of CNC techniques. Hand finishing was still required and took many hours of painstaking work, even with the CNC head start. Recently, Graham Mackinlay in Scotland sold a DMB SxS that was the "last of the non-CNC" SxS. The statement in the description implied that the early guns were superior. Both of my DMB's are pre-CNC and I must say that you can feel the quality each time you push the top lever (I have no CNC'd guns for reference). With the DMB action, the point at which the top lever lets the barrels fall with the energy from the compressed springs is definitely magical. The tolerances must be so precise. But, of course I am a round action nut and completely biased. If you go to the Southern this year, find one on a table and open it a few times and see if you agree with my sentiments. And ask the vendor, "is this one pre-CNC" and see what they say...

CNC is just another means that comes in an endless form of “completion”. CNC can create a product that is so far from finished you’d question why even bother, to a product that requires 1% or less hand work. Can you imagine the hoopla when those pesky manual machines came about!
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 08:10 PM
Hand or machine was the subject in a meeting with Sandro Lucchini of Armitalia. He was showing me a set of five Holland style sidelocks he had just finished for an American client.

"Hand built?" I asked looking at the lockwork.

"No, when I want quality and perfectly squared parts I use the milling machine" he replied. That was years before the advent of CNC that is way more precise than the old milling machines.

Hands I think are probably best at fitting and getting the feel just right. Machines do some things better, faster and more easily.

Insisting that rough work like dimensioning a forging, should be done by hand so the object can have the title "hand built" is a bit sadistic to the worker, while making no difference to the finished part. Those who go for that sort of thing should be made to file a steel forging for eight hours. See how they like it.
Posted By: Carl46 Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 10:10 PM
Shades of Downton Abbey, where one rings a little bell, and someone rushes to sit on the loo and warm it for you. If one is able to pay 50 servants so that one needs not pour one's drink or button one's shirt, one might think $78,000 "sensible" for a gun. Those of us who have to make economic choices find it more sensible to buy our round action guns from Chapuis for $5500 and spend the rest on fuel, cartridges, and trespass fees.

DMB guns are lovely. Had Grandfather taken his covered wagon to the part of Texas that has oil under it instead of the part that grows wheat, I might have some. I console myself with the thought that we are supposed to look at the bird, not the gun.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 10:15 PM
But, when the birds are not flying the gun is a very nice distraction. grin
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/14/22 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by gunmaker
New Best quality guns aren’t in the same ballpark as Perazzi because their clientele base doesn’t want such, nor is that the branding such manufacturers have built. Us po’ folk will just have to be happy with our Perazzi’s and second hand junk.

Agreed, 100%. And, happy I am. Even though I don't desire one, at this point, I can very much appreciate the DMBs, the Ds and Ms. Shot one recently. handled another rare one. Gorgeous guns.
Posted By: canvasback Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/15/22 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by craigd
Originally Posted by canvasback
....That extra cost is the cost of the brand value.

No reason to imagine that isn't somewhat true for new guns. Brand value has real impact. And there isn't much value for Purdey, or Boss or DMB not charging for the value inherent in their brand reputation....
The perception of value might be why the big name London makers have been purchased by large conglomerates. After profits have been dispersed to companies that have invested in capitalizing on brand reputation, the big names may be operating closer to how McKay Brown does on the shop floor.

I think you are probably right.
Posted By: Owenjj3 Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/15/22 04:17 AM
Steve, Lee did one in rose and scroll and Hunt the other in large scroll. I purchased the SxS for about £16k, or about the price of a mid grade? Perazzi. It has been enjoyed on the grouse moor but still has plenty of remaining life for my purposes. Oh, and it weighs a mere 5lbs 15oz, so it is a true joy to carry, hunt and shoot.
Posted By: SKB Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/15/22 09:39 AM
Rose and Scroll by Charles is hard to beat, sounds like you picked it up right too! Enjoy them both in good health.
Steve
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/15/22 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by Owenjj3
Steve, Lee did one in rose and scroll and Hunt the other in large scroll. I purchased the SxS for about £16k, or about the price of a mid grade? Perazzi. It has been enjoyed on the grouse moor but still has plenty of remaining life for my purposes. Oh, and it weighs a mere 5lbs 15oz, so it is a true joy to carry, hunt and shoot.

Extensive photos would be much appreciated. It is likely the only way I'll ever experience on these.
Posted By: Owenjj3 Re: “Sensibly priced” - 02/15/22 07:32 PM
I think I may have the engravers backward now that I look at them but nonetheless, at least here is a photo of the engraving...


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