Team,
I asked for, and received a very nice book for Christmas today (thanks Sis!)

As I sat down to read it, I came across a good quote, and I would like to solicit input from those of you who have used a 2" 12ga.
I normally shoot a 2oga, 26" RKLT Lightning, 6lb2oz, 1965 Super Posed with 7/8oz RSTs choked CYL/SKT for Grouse Woodcock.


Here's the info, and Merry Christmas

Book: The Traditional Side by Side, first edition, page 11
by Doug Stewart

The author says:
"On the light side, the 2" 12ga using 7/8oz loads shoots the shortest shot string known. It is deadly out to 35yards. It is like a pizza pan being thrown through the air."

Now I want one of the light nifty (and rare, not cheap) little guns. Love to hear your thoughts for the purpose of discussion.

How about just buying some 2" shells from RST and running them through a 2 1/2" 12 bore? Same thing?

If you were to compare a typical 2 inch 12 gauge to your superposed, it’s the difference between a Ferrari and an ox cart.

He didn’t say what gauge his super is…if it’s a 20 bore, I doubt it handles like a Ox cart. If his super is a 12 bore and depending on configuration…like a properly balanced super light…I highly doubt it handles like an ox cart either.

2” 12’s are overrated. Typically, a lot of them are ill balanced, especially Spanish made ones. Made to be light, which many of them are, but they usually sacrifice balance to achieve that. There are some gems out there, but they are few and far between.

The author of your book sounds like a hype man. A pizza pan huh? With what choke? Any choke? Ya right. The 12 is always going to be ballistically superior to smaller gauges, but light and well balanced 20’s and 16’s don’t take too much of a back seat to a 12 these days.

Nobody’s buying much of anything from RST these days either. They haven’t put much out in awhile.

Instead of seeking out a 2" gun, why not a lite weight 2 1/2" gun that you could shoot 7/8 , 1 oz. loads from. I chose to use a 5 lb. 12 oz. Churchill 12ga. chambered for 2 1/2" shells, which would be more available than the 2' ones. CZ, you have handled mine and I'm sure you would agree.
Karl

That’s true, I didn’t consider that he might be switching from a 20 gauge super to a 2 inch 12.

That might close the handling gap somewhat.

7.5lb o/u’s don’t feel the same as 6lb or lighter sxs’s.
And now I’m sure his super will turn out to be a skeletonized lightning with 24” barrels, a super short ultra low density stock, and only weigh 6 pounds.

The 2” 12ga from Britain is always light. Otherwise why bother? My 26” Irish Gallyon weighs 5 lb 4 oz, the same as my 28” 28ga sxs. The 12ga action is bigger than the 28ga, which is only significant if you carry one handed, which I do. Right now ammo is scarce except for 1-7/8” mini 12s in 7-1/2 shot. I have the components to load 2”, but I haven’t yet. I prefer 5s and 6s for pheasant. I would be more enthusiastic about the 2” 12ga if I didn’t have a 28ga. My gun is very light, and very pretty as well. I hunt with a man who favors his 2” 12ga to all others for upland game.

Lovely Churchill by the way, thanks for sharing!

Vol423- I wonder what attributes make your friend pull out this gun over others. Weight? Handling? Shot String?
I hunt with a man who favors his 2” 12ga to all others for upland game.

Same thing. In fact, 7/8 oz 2.5" shells would be the same thing. As would 7/8 oz 2.75" shells in a gun so chambered. The short shot string comes from the wide, 12 ga. bore, not the short cartridge case.

I love the 2” doubles. I’ve had probably a dozen or so and have never had one that was “I’ll balanced”. And I’ve had them in 26”, 27” and 28”. Maybe LeFusil’s Spanish made 2” guns were “I’ll balanced”. But the English version of a 2” double is a joy to carry and shoot.

You are going to need to find one pick it up and swing it. You also didn't say if you are use to shooting SxS. A good 2" 12 is going to be in the 5 1/2 lb or less. With RST not be able to find components, 2" shells are not readily available and no one knows when RST is going to start up again. However, they are a nice gun to carry and they are propositional to a 12 gauge. Like any light gun they do require you to be conscious of swinging it.

Ken

As light as my Churchill is, it shoots well. Being able to effectively shoot a light gun comes from muscle memory. Once you have it, it's hard to beat for game shooting.
Karl

A 2” 12 does nothing a 2 1/2” 16 or 20 won’t do just as well or better. I had one, 2” 12, which was a joy to carry. But a 2 1/2” 20 is just as much a joy to carry and easier to load for. I ended up selling my 2” 12 because it ended up filling a slot which multiple other guns did just as well or better. I had 16 and 20 with the same weight, same or heavier payload and which patterned just as well. Mine was choked IM in both barrels and had very nice patterns but nothing magical anymore than the 28 is a magical gauge. Hype is not hope.

Seems like one maker made them for 90% of the trade, so name means very little. Do be aware that to get the weight down they were struck very thin and often are even thinner than you might be comfortable shooting. Do not buy one without carefully measuring the barrels.

Some of the 2” factory shells are loaded so hot, they rattle your fillings. I loaded Federal Paper hulls with 15/16 shot and it was a joy to shoot. Then again I love paper hulls in all doubles.

If you find one you like buy it and scratch that itch. I lusted for a SuperBrite O/U for 20 years until I found one. Shot it so poorly that if I used it to shoot myself it would require two extra shells to finish the job. It was totally cool and I was satisfied having shot it for the time I owned it but like selling a boat, I shed no tears after it left. Buy right to sell painlessly later.

I’ve never owned a Spanish version or an English version….seen, handled, shot dozens and even hunted a couple of both varieties though…..not one of them made me want to own one. Not one.
I shoot a lot of wild birds every season, prairie birds, forest birds, and mountain birds…not one of those 2” guns would’ve suited any of my purposes…I have a light Churchill XXV 12 bore that comes in at 5 lbs 14 oz. and that sucker is dynamic and balanced right as most Churchills are. It’s much more versatile than any 2” 12 could hope to be.

I’m glad you’ve had good luck and those 2” guns work so well for you. You’re a lucky guy.

I like the uniqueness of the 2" 12 with its light weight and fast handling (my perception) for shooting in the tight woodcock covers I frequent.
The one depicted with the empty hull is an unbranded gun made by Skimin & Wood with 28" barrels. I added a leather pad to it which raised the weight of the gun from 5.5 lbs. to 5.75 lbs. The second gun I acquired this year and is also a Skimin & Wood gun but branded C. Hellis & Son with 26" barrels and a weight of 5 lbs., 7 oz. Both guns were made in the late 1930s and proofed for 7/8 oz. loads. I shoot published recipe handloads with a hybrid mixture of plastic gas seals and fiber wads. The plastic gas seals give me more consistent chronographed velocity than with nitro cards and fiber wads. Gil

I have shot a few 2 inchers, most made by William Ford. Superb handling and nice even patterns from all of them. The dainty feel and those super light barrels made me extra careful not to bump them against a tree branch.

I had no means to judge the shot string, but somewhere in my files there are photos of a 2 incher's patterns, spread evenly over a 70X100 centimeter printing plates at 30 meteres. The charges were 7/8 oz of No6. Coincidentally, on the same test we shot a Lancaster 12/20 and a Holland Royal. The little William Ford patterned as well as the other two.

If you want killing power, buy a bigger chambered gun. If you are enamored with the idea of a featherweight 12, short chamber, get one. What other people want or don't want is all over the map. Justifying it is not necessary. To paraphrase Amarillo Mike 'Once you pass the chicken joint on the way out of town to hunt birds, you've left practicality behind'.

Amen. I have repeated Mike's "chicken joint" observation but had attributed it to you over the years.
Gil

More than one guy, here, figured it out over the years.

Best,
Ted

I would like to own a 2" sxs but just for the uniqueness of owning one, I can't find any advantage in the field. I do shoot a 5 lb 15 oz 2 3/4" 12ga sxs and I have a 2 1/2" 12ga Darne at the same weight. On upland birds I find that 1 oz works in 12's, 16's and 20gauges.

On upland birds I find that 1 oz works in 12's, 16's and 20gauges.

True. For some reason a 1oz 2 1/2” 16ga is just a killer on the rare occasions I do my job

I've owned exactly one 2" 12ga. It was French, and it's the only French 2 incher I've ever seen. Just to scratch a very minor inch. Very light, couldn't hit squat with it, and I had no intention of reloading for it.

McIntosh breathed a bit of life into the 2", after which the Spanish made a few. But those Spanish 2 inchers weigh what a light Brit 2 1/2" 12 weighs: 6# neighborhood. The Brit 2 inchers are down in the 5 1/2# range or less

A 6lb.12 with 28” barrels is on my wish list

They get tough to shoot when the weight gets down around those parts. I’m coming to believe that some guys blame barrel regulation issues when they are struggling with a light gun.

Best,
Ted

A 6lb. 16 is what I shoot best but I like the heft of a 12 with my larger hands

That may well be but, I cannot fathom acquiring a shotgun and not immediately shooting it at the plate to determine POI, and what load it was regulated for, in the case of doubles.

Vintage, new, single barrel or double, repeater .............. doesn't matter. It's always the first thing that should be done before taking it to the field or woods, IMO.

Modern Spanish doubles are made a bit heavier because they have to be proofed at the same levels as 2 1?2" guns these days I am told. So while they are out there they might not be want you really want in a 2". There are several 2" doubles in the sealed bid auction coming up but beware many think the sealed bids are for cripples and dogs with only the very rarest bargain thrown in these days. I understand their view. If the gun was a fairly good example it would have made last months main sale but for whatever reason failed to live up to that standard. So buyer beware and with all 2" guns, watch those thin barrels. They all started out thin and never got better with age and cleanups.

Unless RST has added inventory recently, there are no 2” 12ga available there

I would be willing to bet the guys that do the 2” thing all own a reloader.

Best,
Ted

It’s probably heresy, but there has probably been a fair amount of modern 1 3/4” shells run through two inch guns?

Craig, I would think that most of us here and those that would deliberately buy a 2" 12 ga. would not be the "hold my beer and watch this" daredevil and intentionally run 2.75 shells through a gun clearly marked on the rib, usually in gold letters, "2 inch cases only". (Although the surgeon general's warning on cigarette packs has been a waste of ink.)
Gil

Craig may have been referring to these, the Federal 1 3/4" shorties:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020987736

??

Thanks Stan. Gil, 5/8oz. 1200fps loads are generally easy to come by, and moderately priced. I'm not saying that someone actually would buy a two inch gun, and use these shells, but there might be work arounds for the non reloader? Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of 2 3/4" loads in 2 1/2" guns, though there's a fair bit of expert opinion that it can be done, selectively.

Thanks, Stan, Craig. I had forgotten about the "shorty" shells made by Aguilla and didn't know about Feds. However, if they are built on the high end of SAAMI standards, the pressures would exceed what these 80-90 year old guns were built to digest on a steady diet regardless of load size. Gil

Out of curiosity; and with absolutely no intention to shoot it, I have tried to see if my 2" gun would accept a 2 1/2" cartridge if one should find its way into the cartridge bag by mistake and it most certainly would not fit. The forcing cones are such that it just will not go in. If there's space in the gun cabinet and you find a nice one it's worth buying. Lagopus.....

Here's a short history of the 2" 12 ga both here and in the UK and Spain.
https://shootingsportsman.com/short-shell-12-2-guns/ Gil

Gil, what cartridge did you use on those woodcocks you posted a picture of?

Carl, the shell is a paper Cheddite 2.5" trimmed to 2" loaded with 7/8 oz. #8. Gil

I bought a flat of 2 inch shells at a gun show for $75.00 earlier this year. I have plenty of 2 1/2 inch guns, but at that price, I can shoot them in a 2 1/2 inch gun.

I shot over 3 dozen grouse this fall and most were with the 2 inch shells I got at the gun show. They are not loud and don't kick much. It is like shooting a 20 gauge with a better pattern.

Has anyone in this discussion about the 12 gauge 2 inch chambered shotguns ever shot any of the RST 12 gauge 2 inch 3/4 ounce shot loads; and if so what is your opinion of them and their performance?

Stephen Howell

Anybody have any 2” pet loads? In looking at published data there are not a lot of options.

I recently purchased a Skimin & Wood 12 ga with 2" chambers. It was made for Kimball Arms Co Woburn Mass and comes complete with a Abercrombie & Fitch trunk style case. It has 27" barrels choked mod and full and is proved for 7/8 oz of shot. It weighs 5 lb 3 oz and is well balanced and lively in my hands.
I bought it because of the novelty of having a 2" gun. I haven't shot it yet but I will when weather permits. It will be fun to get a few ruffies next fall.

Well done, Bill. I was watching that listing with interest. Glad it went to you.

Handloading and pressure data on the 2 inch can be found in an old Gun Digest article titled "Two inches of pleasure and problems". Cannot remember the year, it was in the early 80s I think. IT details the acquisition and intention of the author to deepen the chamber to 2 1/2 till his gunsmith gauged the thickness. THen he started developing loads that would keep to acceptable pressure.

Thanks for the tip Shotgunlover. I just ordered an old copy from EBay. Once I read it I will post on some of the details.

Did you receive my pm??

I have low pressure 2.5" loads, but I wouldn't dream of altering the chambers on my guns to use them. That's a non-starter. YMMV. Gil

Got it! Thanks!

I read the Gun Digest article. The author buys a Holland and Holland Two Inch gun and then proceeds to do everything he can to shoot 11/8 oz loads out of it. He never discusses the guns proofs and his gunsmith agrees to open the chambers 1/8” because there is not enough wall thickness to go the full 1/2”. To me this is a story of how fine guns get ruined over time. The final insult is the loads that he has worked up and shot for a season when finally tested are 50% above saami maximum pressure. The article was published in 1978. Hopefully there is a better understanding now on how to use and enjoy these fine shotguns.

I recall also reading this article some years ago with complete horror. I think the misunderstanding arose from the fact that the Proof House insisted on proving the earliest 2" chamber guns with the same Proof Load as the 2 1/2" chamber guns and marking them at 1 1/8th. ounce the same way. With later negotiations with the Gunmakers they then started to mark them at 7/8th. ounce and 2 3/4 tons per square inch. I doubt you could fit much more than a 1/8th. inch card wad between powder and shot. I bet it kicked a bit! I hope not too many other tried the same trick! Lagopus.....