Dickisnon Amrs 20/28 SxS special order shotgun. Excess headpsace in one barrel. the following is the narrative with supporting emails showing the poor cusomter service of Dickinson and their even worse "gunsmith repair". Dickinson was given ample iopportunity to make this right. They did not. The photo at the end speaks ofr itself.

I would never guy a Dickinson and would disocurage anyone form ever buying one based on the terrible cusormer support and shade tree mechanoc re[airs they say are safe and acceptable.
BUYERS BEWARE.

Background: My friend ordered and received his shotgun in 2017 through me.
He received the gun and the 20 Ga barrels worked without problem. The 28 Ga barrels had frequent misfires. He examined the dud rounds and observed light strikes on the primers.
He contacted Dickinson and was instructed by the company to return the gun for examination and possible repair. He shipped the shotgun back to Dickinson. Dickinson told him they would reimburse him for shipping. They did not,

Dickinson repaired it and sent it back. The initial repair resolved the misfire issue but caused the ejector not to work after firing 3 or 4 rounds.
My customer sent it back again. The second repair just increased the number of rounds that could be fired to between 25 and 50 before the ejector stopped working again.
Each time the gun was sent to the company he was told that he would be reimbursed for shipping since the gun was under warranty.

I was able to inspect the gun after he continued to experience issues after the company had the opportunity to resolve the functioning issues twice.
Upon examination, on the 28 Ga. Barrels, the right ejector blade was approximately .020” below the rear of the barrel breech face. And the corresponding rim cut was at least .020” deeper than the other chamber rim recess which created a headspace issue for the right barrel. The shell rested too far down in the chamber for the firing pin to reliably contact the primer and fire the shell.
The “Gunsmith” who they had repair the misfire problem had added a small glob of TIG weld to the back side of the ejector blade to raise the ejector blade up to hold the cartridge against the breech face/firing pin to theoretically correct the problem.

My friend had sent me photos of the ejector blade when he got it back and I told him that the ejector blade is never used to regulate headspace and that is exactly what the person who did that repair attempted to do. I told him it was not correct and that no experienced double gun gunsmith would do something like that. I further explained to him that the rim cuts in the back of the barrels are what regulates headspace and not the ejector blades. But that is what the person who repaired the gun attempted to pass off .

On July 8, 2021, Dickinson even admits “ The return invoice from Pisco states "right ejector has been fitted to tighten headspace. Repaired and test fired...alot." They state they worked the ejector to correct headspace. As you can see from the email traffic, Dickinson did not conduct themselves in a positive business manner. Their repair of the gun was well below sub standard. And their unwillingness to correct a glaring issue is plainly evident.

Dickinson’s website states the following: “At Dickinson Arms, we are building our reputation one shotgun and one customer at a time. When you buy a Dickinson shotgun, you become part of our family — and we pledge to support you with the finest products and the best U.S.-based customer support in the industry.” Based on the repair my customer received, I think they are grossly exaggerating their commitment to quality.

Dickinson never responded back after he complained the third time. They never got back to him as they said they would once they heard from their factory.
For those of you who say I am only presenting one side of the story, read Dickinson’s replies and responses to the issue. In their emails they acknowledge the headspace issue and their remedy is to add a gob of weld on the backside of an ejector blade to correct it. Find me a double gun gunsmith who would say that is an acceptable method to correct the issue.

Here is the email traffic , hopefully in chronological order.

-----Original Message-----
From: WordPress <wordpress@dickinsonarms.com>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 8:12 AM
To: Dickinson Info <info@dickinsonarms.com>
Subject: Message from Dickinson
You received a message from Dickinson <https://dickinsonarms.com>
COL Mark Warnecke
troutbrook84@gmail.com
Message:
I have a Dickinson Estate 20/28 gauge (SN TRP0370) that I purchased new with select walnut from Dickinson USA. I had a misfire issue in 2018 with the 28 gauge barrels and returned the gun for repairs. This issue was resolved, though I was never reimbursed for shipping as promised. I have only fired a few shots through the 28 gauge barrels since, until the other day, when I fired 50 rounds. Almost immediately the right barrel would not eject. I took the gun apart at home, and remove the ejectors for inspection. First thing I noticed was the large amount of powder residue around the action/breech/ ejectors. Upon removal of the right barrel ejector I immediately notice a defect in that there was a protrusion of metal on the face of the ejector towards the chamber. This does not allow the ejector to sit flush against the rear of the chamber/barrel. In fact there is a gap of .020 inches. I believe the simple resolution if for you to send me a new right barrel ejector 28 gauge for my estate. I can provide pictures of the manufacture defect on the ejector if you would like. I look forward to a speedy resolution, thank you.

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 2:01 PM Kristian Valenzuela <kristian@dickinsonarms.com> wrote:
Hello Mark,
I cant do anything about the reimbursement, but I’ll help you out and we will cover shipping to our warranty service center this time only for you. FYI All repairs need to be handled by our gunsmith to preserve the warranty.
Please forward me your information below and I will forward you a UPS shipping label to send your shotgun in for service. Make sure to include this information with the gun for our gunsmith to reference.
Name
Phone#
Shipping Address
Shotgun model and serial #
Package weight and dimensions
Description of Problem
Thank you,
Kristian Valenzuela
Warehouse Manager
Dickinson, LLC
www.dickinsonarms.com e: kristian@dickinsonarms.com

From: Mark Warnecke <troutbrook84@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 4:09 AM
To: Kristian Valenzuela <kristian@dickinsonarms.com>
Subject: Re: 20/28ga Issue

Kristian,
Here is the information you requested for repair and shipping UPS shipping label.
Name: COL (R) Mark Warnecke
Phone: 845-417-1993
Shipping Address: 31 Nurses Road, Olmstedville, NY 12857
Model: Dickinson Estate 20/28 Gauge with upgraded wood, SN TRP0370
Package: 36inX11inX4in. Weight 9 Lbs 12 oz.
Description of problem: I have a Dickinson Estate 20/28 gauge (SN TRP0370) that I purchased new with select walnut from Dickinson USA. I had a misfire issue in 2018 with the 28 gauge barrels and returned the gun for repairs. This issue was resolved, though I was never reimbursed for shipping as promised. I have only fired a few shots through the 28 gauge barrels since, until the other day, when I fired 50 rounds. Almost immediately the right barrel would not eject. I took the gun apart at home, and removed the ejectors for inspection. First thing I noticed was the large amount of powder residue around the action/breech/ ejectors. Upon removal of the right barrel ejector I immediately notice a defect in that there was a protrusion of metal on the face of the ejector towards the chamber. This does not allow the ejector to sit flush against the rear of the chamber/barrel in the rim recess. In fact there is a gap of .020 inches. I believe after consultation with my gunsmith that the right ejector needs to be replaced and the rim recess checked to insure that it is to specifications and not cut to deep . I can provide pictures of the defect on the ejector if you would like. I look forward to a speedy resolution, thank you.
Thank you.
COL (R) Mark Warnecke

From: Mark Warnecke <troutbrook84@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 8, 2021 2:52 PM
To: Kristian Valenzuela <kristian@dickinsonarms.com>; Brian Perazone <bpgunsmith@catskill.net>
Subject: Re: 20/28ga Issue
Kristian,
I received the gun back, but much to my disappointment, the right ejector has not been replaced as it should have been. It's the same ejector, 20 thousands thinner than the left ejector, with the original cobed repair of welding metal to it to increase thickness to "fix" the original miss fire issue (and I use the word fix loosely). I don't understand why, when I included pictures of the problem and a clear identification of the original unsatisfactory repair, the ejector was not replaced as it should have been. The original repair was done incorrectly and nothing is being done to rectify that. I want a new ejector. This gun should have never cleared the factory with that ejector in it. The first time it was sent in the ejector should have been replaced. The second time it was sent in the ejector should have been replaced.
The return invoice from Pisco states "right ejector has been fitted to tighten headspace. Repaired and test fired...alot." Again as you can see in the photo I sent you, the ejector should have been replaced. If the headspace was off, why was it returned from them the first time? As we all know, miss fire is a common symptom of incorrect headspace, and the photo shows how they "repaired" by gobbing a weld spot on to adjust headspace (again, repair is not correct, cobbed it would be more accurate). I would strongly suggest that you contract with a more competent gunsmithing company for your repairs.

I am including my gunsmith in this email. Please advise.
COL (R) Mark Warnecke

From: bpgunsmith@catskill.net <bpgunsmith@catskill.net>
Sent: Friday, July 9, 2021 5:06 PM
To: 'Mark Warnecke' <troutbrook84@gmail.com>; Kristian Valenzuela <kristian@dickinsonarms.com>
Subject: RE: 20/28ga Issue

As the dealer/gunsmith who sold this shotgun to Mark, I have to weigh in.
I have more than 42 years as a school trained gunsmith. I know my business. And I know how to not repair a shotgun with headspace issues. The “repair” that was done on that shotgun was absolutely the worst shade tree mechanic work I have seen on a double gun.
The gun clearly has excess headspace. The rim recess (which controls headspace) was cut too deep. That’s why your “mechanic built up the underside of the extractor in hopes that the ejector blade would hold the cartridge high enough for the firing pin to contact the primer with enough force to fire the cartridge. Ejectors and extractors are not designed to regulate headspace. NEVER!
The fact that your repairman built up the underside with a dab of weld is a clear indication that he recognized the problem was excess headspace.
The only way to fix that barrel correctly is to either cut the recess and insert a ring to create a new seat for the rim recess to be cut and recut the cartridge rim recess to the proper depth to headspace correctly and do all of the attendant polishing/rebluing to make it right or re-barrel the gun. I would imagine that it would be far more practical to send it back to have a new set of barrels fit and properly headspaced.
Short of that, this “repair” should be an embarrassment for a company that touts itself as selling high quality SxS shotguns for the discriminating bird hunter and shooter. I do not know of a single real gunsmith who would do that sort of “repair” to fix that issue.
To put it bluntly, you need to either rebarrel the gun with a new set of barrels or refund the customer his money. I am sure that the many double gun sites and shotgun sites that people discuss shotguns on would find it quite interesting to see the photos of the type of customer support they would receive from a company if they buy their product. I have had several inquiries from potential customers for Dickinson shotguns since Mark has had this issue. I have held them off form purchasing until I saw how this would be resolved. After two attempts at resolving this issue and the subsequent cobb job repairs made, I cannot at this time recommend or sell Dickinson shotguns. If this is not resolved to my customers full satisfaction, I will post photos of the cobb job repair and a detailed narrative of the issues plaguing this shotgun and let the shotgunners of the world decide for themselves what is right and wrong.

If you take issue with my observations and comments, I challenge you to show me a reputable shotgun gunsmith that would agree that your method of repair was an acceptable method.
Brian
B. PERAZONE GUNSMITH
07 FFL, CLASS 2 SOT

From: Aykut Bekmez <aykut@dickinsonarms.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2021 6:29 PM
To: bpgunsmith@catskill.net; troutbrook84@gmail.com
Subject: RE: 20/28ga Issue
Hello Brain and Mark,
We do not have over sized extractors. The repair made to the gun is safe and will function reliably.
However, I will still speak with gunsmith team at the factory and get back to you.
Ike
Manager
Dickinson, LLC
p: (805) 978 - 8565
f: (805) 978 - 8564
a: 5140 Commerce Ave. Unit A&B, Moorpark, CA 93021
w: www.dickinsonarms.com e: aykut@dickinsonarms.com

<troutbrook84@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2021 4:45 PM
To: Brian Perazone <bpgunsmith@catskill.net>
Cc: Aykut Bekmez <aykut@dickinsonarms.com>
Subject: Re: 20/28ga Issue
And the "repair" isn't working. Extractor is sticking again. Is this really what your company stands for?
On Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 18:37 <bpgunsmith@catskill.net> wrote:
while that repair may be safe, it is not appropriate. That would be done an rusty an H&R single shot shotgun by some tractor mechanic. Not a on a fine double gun. None of your gunsmiths can say with a straight face that’s appropriate.
That would be the equivalent of peening the barrel lug to tighten the gun if it was off face.
Ejectors and extractors are not designed for nor were ever intended to regulate headspace.
That is an absolutely horrible repair and this does not reflect well on your products and customer service.
Brian
B. PERAZONE GUNSMITH
07 FFL, CLASS 2 SOT

<troutbrook84@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2021 1:19 PM
To: Aykut Bekmez <aykut@dickinsonarms.com>
Cc: Brian Perazone <bpgunsmith@catskill.net>
Subject: Re: 20/28ga Issue
Here is what you will do. You will check the rim recess for proper depth. If it is not proper depth you will replace the barrels. If it is the proper depth you will replace the right ejector which is too thin. Period. This is the third time I will be sending this gun back, and that is an indication of your company's unwillingness to listen to what the issue is and/or incompetent gunsmith for repair and/or an unwilling to properly repair in the first place. Are you going to tell me that putting a spot weld on the back of the ejector was the proper repair? I will await your reply. If you are unwilling to properly repair the gun as I and my gunsmith have stated, I will not waste my time sending it back for a third time. I will await your reply.
COL (R) Mark Warnecke
On Fri, Jul 16, 2021, 15:32 Aykut Bekmez <aykut@dickinsonarms.com> wrote:
Hello Mark,

Please provide me below information for shipping label. We will test your gun for extractor problem.
Name
Phone#
Shipping Address
Shotgun model and serial #
Package weight and dimensions

Ike

Ike Bekmez
Manager
Dickinson, LLC
p: (805) 978 - 8565
f: (805) 978 - 8564
a: 5140 Commerce Ave. Unit A&B, Moorpark, CA 93021
w: www.dickinsonarms.com e: aykut@dickinsonarms.com


On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 7:12 PM Aykut Bekmez <aykut@dickinsonarms.com> wrote:
Hello Mark,

We cant give you an answer until we diagnose the problem. I am just talking about this recent event. It is your decision to send it back or not. I have a gunsmith report that states the gun has been test fired with over 25 and it is working properly. You are claiming that the extractor is still sticking , this is our priority at the moment. If the extractor sticking situation continues, yes, we will diagnose why the issue persists. However, until we see the gun or receive a another report from a secondary gunsmith located here in California, I wont able to give you any answer at the moment.
For the rest of the problem which your previous emails state, until I hear back from the factory I wont able to get back to you with a straight answer. The Turkish factory is unfortunately on a National holiday at the moment, I am waiting to hear from them.
Best,
Ike Bekmez
Manager
Dickinson, LLC

<troutbrook84@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2021 4:36 PM
To: Aykut Bekmez <aykut@dickinsonarms.com>
Cc: bpgunsmith@catskill.net
Subject: Re: 20/28ga Issue
Your, as you call him "gunsmith" has had the gun twice. First he cobbed a repair by spot welding the back of the ejector. Even when this was pointed out and shown to him in pictures I sent, you still refuse to admit, that the first time the gun was sent with a misfire problem, he did not properly address the issue. Whatever the source of the problem, spot welding the back of the ejector was not the answer. Unless you and your company agree to make the corrections the LTC (R) Perazone, my gunsmith, has told you need to be done, I will not send the gun back A THIRD TIME!!!! Instead I will share my experience with you product and your service with the shotgun and bird hunting community.

COL (R) Mark Warnecke

Hello Mark,

Again I apologize for the inconvenience, we approved the original repair to the gun as we do not have any extractors to replace the original one with. This repair was not to your liking however be aware that it is safe and reliable. We are contacting the factory as we speak to find a resolution. We understand the weld fix is not ideal and not to your liking, keep in mind I must speak with the factory which takes a few days. Again, we will need the shotgun back and we are sending it to a different local gunsmith to confirm your claims, not our Warranty Service Center, to get a 3rd party diagnosis. Your demands and threats are noted, keep in mind we are still doing our best to assist you and need time to address this issue.

Best,


Ike Bekmez
Manager
Dickinson, LLC
p: (805) 978 - 8565
f: (805) 978 - 8564
a: 5140 Commerce Ave. Unit A&B, Moorpark, CA 93021
w: www.dickinsonarms.com e: aykut@dickinsonarms.com

You are not alone in your experience with Dickinson.
Whomever does their work in CA cannot even generously be called a hack.
I wonder if their vise even has jaw liners.

Best to find someone with integrity that has gained real experience working on them.
You aren’t going to get anywhere with them.

I bought a Dickinson, two barrel set gun, from Cabella's about 5 years ago. I planned to use it as a rainy day gun. It was a nice looking gun and I liked the idea of having 20 and 28 gauge barrels that fit one receiver. Well, I never used the 28 gauge barrels because the gun was about one pound heavier with those verses having the 20 bore barrels on. I shot the Dickinson several times at my club and the gun was about flawless and with no issues perceived. Trigger pull was acceptable and the gun fit me rather well. I was pleased with it.

I was out in Montana and it looked like it might rain so I took The Dickinson afield for the first time. It rained but not very hard and for about 10 minutes. When the rain stopped I wiped the gun down with a towel in the field. I made sure the gun was completely dry before I stowed it away in the slip. Sometime after that (I can't recall now if it was later that day, or the next morning) the gun barrels and top rib started to show major rust areas. The top rib had rust extending along its entire length and the barrels had spot rust in many places. The stock looked like I poured acid on it. I got home, refinished the stock, cleaned up the rib and barrels so they looked almost new and sold the gun. I then resolved that I would never, ever think of owning another Dickinson gun again, or any Turkish gun for that matter.

Yes, the price is attractive but as the saying goes, "you get what you pay for".

Guess I just got lucky ........

Twice.

I am truly sorry for other's misfortunes with them. I've had no mechanical problems with my two Turkish S X Ss, and no wood finish issues, and no rust problems, in spite of using them in high humidity, rain, and high heat conditions shooting doves. I got more than "what I paid for".

Not going to get into a debate over Turkish guns. It wouldn't change anyone's mind anyway. Simply stating my experiences.

Colonel, if I may, you have an exemplary service record, if I, as a retired USMC NCO, might comment. Now how does a E-7 know this. Sir, you have more patience than I could ever imagine, in dealing with these "Numbnutted clowns that import the Dickinson shotguns from Turkey. I'm not a gunsmith, but I have a solid background as a now retired tool&die welder, so I know quite well the TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) and Plasma Arc welding processes-- You are 100% correct in that this "field fix" was NOT the right way to proceed to cure the right hand barrel headspacing issue with your shotgun. I served as an Armorer (MOS 2125) and qualified up to and including the Browning M-2 (Ma Deuce) Cal. .50MG--not sibe-by-side or over-under shotguns I'll grant you, but the principles of proper gun repair and maintenance cover a broad spectrum, do they not. ??

We all owe you a salute for bringing this sad sorry to our attention- Luckily your detailed history of this Major League FUBAR of your shotgun and its lack of inspection and quality control in its manufacture will serve as a warning to others here. And thank you for your service to our Country. RWTF

Brian,

Thank you for the well presented post re. Dickinson Arms unspeakably poor customer service. One would think that a reputable company would simply supply & fit a new set of barrels.

Comments on exemplary service should bring rewards for the provider & botched work + poor service as you have described should have consequences for the perpetrator. Everyone makes an occasional mistake but it is how the mistake is dealt with that really matters.

I think the picture is probably worth a million? words.

It’s comforting to know they are consistent.

Don’t have to worry about second chances.

a few dickinson estate model box locks have passed thru my hands...mostly 20's and a 410...no problems, no complaints, so far...

never had anything to do with one of the 20/28 ga two barrels sets...dont see the point of that any hows...

I have 3 Dickinsons: 26, 20, and 28. No problems with any of them. No wood or metal issues. No issues - period. As to the 20 / 28 two barreled set referred to by Brian, I would have guessed that the weight of the 28 barrels on the 20 frame would have been heavier due to having to maintain the correct lines of the gun with thicker barrels. Fit? I cant comment, other than the fit and finish on all three of mine is superb. Sometimes we get unlucky and it appears that a couple here have experienced that. I would defer from condemning a particular brand of gun because of two or three unfortunate incidents with service. Like someone else said, no intention of changing anyones mind, just stating my opinion based upon my personal experience.

Ah, let's correct that 26 and make it 16!!!

I was looking forward to a new thread on reloading for the 26 bore

Brian: Thanks for posting that. I have never even been tempted to buy one but for sure never would after reading your account. Gil

Almost bought a straight grip 28 gauge with 30 inch barrels at the Cabelas in Hamburg Pa that had killer wood. Got home and then called back to Hamburg to purchase the gun, and the price quoted to me on the phone was 200 bucks higher then what I was told in the store. I described what the fellow looked like that had given me the quote and they said yes he worked there but he had told me the wrong price. Somewhat pissed off I told them no thanks and hung up. Probably a good thing now, but that wood sure was pretty.

Knowing that you can wipe your ass with their warranties and guarantees should be reflected in the price.

The hack gunsmithing work and lack of concern for finishes pretty much ended it for me with them.

The fact that others have had no problems seems immaterial.

The point is that if they sell you something that's clearly defective you're dead in the water.

Valuable information.

This company certainly has no monopoly on poor customer service but the ejector 'warranty solution' takes the cake.

A couple thousand dollars for a shotgun means different things to different people.

Dickinson shotguns do have a place in the market.

You just have to understand where you are at if it decides to no longer work.

I must confess, I burst out laughing when the guy at the dealer had the temerity to tell me it was going to be $140 to ship a defective brand new shotgun back-and-forth to California.
And then when it came back, it looked like it had gone for a ride in a fish scaler.

I like shooting it, but no way in hell is it ever going anywhere near the manufacturer’s service center ever again.

I have been over the moon ever since I canceled my order for the ornate model.

And finally, there just isn’t anywhere else to get a 28 gauge, trigger plate action, straight grip, multi choke, shotgun, for two grand.

Agreed. This is why this post is so valuable.


Except that's not what he got. He received a defective barrel set that will apparently not be replaced.

Buying third world unsupported stuff is a game for a rich man.

If you can afford the loss, roll the dice.

I do appreciate the time and effort Brian took to inform us about the poor customer service on the defective Dickenson Arms shotgun that was purchased by his friend.

I seriously doubt if there is any manufacturer, either U.S. or foreign based, that has a 100% zero defects rate. Even the best Quality Control and Final Inspection processes seem to still let a few defective items slip through to be sold, whether they are guns, automobiles, appliances, electronics, etc. It therefore matters very little then that the majority of buyers of those products received good quality items, and are happy with their purchase. What matters is how the Company responds to Warranty and Repair Claims for the few products that were defective.

It is obvious that the headspace of this defective shotgun was not checked after the chamber was bored. It is totally unacceptable for a Shotgun Warranty Repair Gunsmith to attempt to compensate for a rim recess that was bored too deep by crudely shimming out the ejectors with a spot of TIG weld.

If Brian decided to sell this shotgun here, and did not disclose the headspace defect and Bubba repair, people here would be calling him a shyster.

If we heard that Old Ed Lander did something like this, most everyone here would be correctly critical of such a crude Bubba repair. I do understand that breech pressures with a shotgun are a fraction of rifle chamber pressures. I also know that shotshells headspace on the rim. So in this instance, the majority of the rim will be unsupported, other than the portion supported by the shimmed-out ejectors. My question is whether the chamber pressure will blow out the unsupported part of the rim, and possibly create an unsafe condition if the thin brass or steel rim splits???

In any event, Dickenson should either replace the defective barrels, or just bite the bullet and replace the entire gun. Lemons like this do nothing for the reputation of any manufacturer. If I had been contemplating the purchase of a Dickenson shotgun, the responses Brian received concerning this defect would make me very reluctant to proceed.

I appreciate the detailed account of the so-called repairs, too. Though I have had zero problems with two Turkish brands I would never send my Dickinson to their repair facility after reading of this botched repair job. If and when it ever needs attention it will go to my go-to double gunsmith.

I'm still glad I bought the Dickinson, because the other options for under $2K 30" barreled .410 S X Ss, with ejectors, are slim. I have another one, the FAIR Iside, but it was more in the $2400 range.

SRH

Having had the Browning factory repair rep in Missouri accuse me of attempting a theft by deception when I asked Browning to just look at a gun to determine what could be done with it, I can I understand the frustration and anger things like this bring. While I'll never buy another Browning product of any type, and I tell everyone about my experience with Browning at every opportunity, I know that most shooters will most likely never have to deal with such gross incompetence and unforgivable, inept, and outrageous customer service. But, I still recommend going to someone other than Browning factory service for repairs.

Keith,
no dount there are products that get tghrough QA/QC that are not up to par.

the issue here is that this gun was sold with a set of barrels with a chamber cut too deep, hence excess headspace, hence out of spec. if Dickinson simply replaced the barrels, all would have been good.

My friend/client simply cant tolerate the gun any longer. He knows its damaged goods and now, regardless of what the factory says, he wont keep it. kind of like finding out your girlfriend cheated on you and then apoligized and swore she would never do it again. the relationship will never be the same, just like this gun.

the gun will be offered for sale with full disoclosure of the issue with the 28 ga barrels.

yeah, an keet...kinda shoddy of you to bad mouth old ed here...

ed lander was my go to gunsmith for about 20 years, for most repair and refinish work...old ed is 94 now and is retired...

some history...ed lander appreticed with kirkland bros.in boston in his mid teens...in 1944, he was drafted into the u.s. army...because of his gunsmithing training, he became an armorer...he worked first at an arms repair depot in italy and later at the fn factory in belgium...upon his discharge in 1946, he started a general gunsmithing business in massachusetts and in the 1970's, moved back to new hampshire, where he was born and raised...old retired in 2020, after working as a general gunsmith for almost 75 years!

he always did fine work for me...his first priority for any gun work he did was safety...if asked to do something to a gun that he felt was not safe , he would refuse the work...myself and others miss old ed and his abilities as a general gunsmith...

as to the headspace problem described here, old ed would just smile and say, sorry, cant help you with that...

Brian, that is essentially what I said. In addition, I am questioning whether the Bubba repair might actually present a safety hazard now that a large portion of the shotshell rims are unsupported at the moment of firing.

In my opinion. I think it would have been best for Dickenson to simply replace the entire gun. I seriously doubt if their repair facility has the means, skills, or materials to make or fit a new set of barrels... especially since they apparently don't even stock replacement ejectors.

Replacing the entire gun would also have been a better choice from the standpoint of customer relations. If someone in my company handled a defective product claim in this manner, I am quite sure he would soon be out of a job. Perhaps at this point, your next move should be to forward this entire Thread to someone much higher up in the Dickenson organization. Someone with more clout and more brains might realize just how valuable it is to maintain a good reputation. Good luck.

Ed, I used the example of your gunsmith friend Old Ed simply because of the great number of times people here criticized work that you attributed to him.... mostly torch coloring of shotgun actions. I absolutely did not bad mouth him here.

Sorry that you were unable to grasp that. Maybe you can give Old Ed a call and ask him how he would have handled repairs on a new double with excessive headspace.

Why couldn’t they have welded up the chamber lip and re-machined the headspace area where the rim of the cartridge sits and then replace/fit a new extractor? Would have been cheaper than a new set of barrels. That tig weld job on the extractor seat was bubba at his best.

Welding the rim and recutting the rim recess would be a real trick. The standard repair is to soft solder in a ring and cut it to proper depth. Brownell's has sold kits in the past to accomplish this repair.

Is this POS double a monoblocked barrel design. High heat input from TIG would most likely pull the barrel chamber at the rim "Out of Round" and as heat transfers through a pipe (gun barrel) you would have to use a copper plug to dam or localize the heat, which when input of same hits the rim, will move around the circle of the rim and chamber- odds are about 9 to 1 you will do far more harm than good. Agree with the "Bubba" analysis of the build-up weld as shown in the foto. RWTF

All true and then you have the additional issue of reamer chatter. Reamers are designed to work on smooth surfaces, which Tig welds are not. It might be able to be done via laser welding but likely not at a reasonable price point.

keet, some here do not like some of old ed's case color work...some do...most dont care...

bottom line...all of the guns recolored by old ed for me were sold years ago...with no complaints...and no returns...

and your ignorance of old eds work as a general gunsmith is apparent...

"old Ed's ---most don't care-- I do, somewhar, as the late old Edward and yours truly both share a background as Armorers working for Uncle Sam. Granted, a detail strip of a M-1 Garand is not the same as timing the ejectors on a Boss or Parker- and Eddie, I am not surprised at your remark about "No returns"-- Your policy on that has more "boilerplate" clauses than a boatload of Philadelphia lawyers could dream up-- 180 degrees away from that of the lates: Bill Jaqua, Thad Scott and Don Criswell-hands down.. RWTF

foxie, i have no idea what you are rambling about...and frankly, to paraphrase rhett, i don give ah damn...

OK Edmund- I'll spell it out for you. I was reflecting as to how, in some slight way, your now deceased gunsmith friend and yours truly seem to have similar backgrounds- both of us were Armorers in the Military- then, when you took a run at the "Never had a gun that Ed Lander smithed for you returned after you sold it, I remarked on your so-called refund return policy-IMO, as in past years I bought guns from Bill Jaqua in Findlay, OH- I use his 3 day NQA full return policy as the golden mean-also used by Thad Scott and Dan Criswell-get it?? Roxie

foxie...

a. old ed is still alive...

b. my return policy is flexible...

c. have a nice day...

Eddie- may I quote "my return policy is flexible" To which I reply: "So are rubber vibrators- aka "Ladies'Home Companions"-- but with either one, someone gets screwed. I have read and re=read your "return or refund policy terms in your ads on Gun Broker- frankly, I don't like the odds of me ever getting a full refund if the gun I bought was not right for me, for whatever reasons--worked like a charm for my friend the late Bill Jaqua, not so much for the late Texas con man and "best little gunshoppe in TX--wonder where that crook is now- no, not really- RWTF

not to worry foxie...ah wood nevah nevah evah knowingly be party to puttin ah weapon in yo hands...

Not even an A.H.Fox Phila mfg. graded shotgun? According to the late Michael MxIntosh- America's Finest-- I knda agree with the Michael Meister-RWTF

i need to sleep nights...

if i were to sell you a gun, i would be up all night worrying that you would shoot yourself in the foot or something...

and as to a grade fox guns, they are a joy...

take a look at this one...

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...n-16-gauge-28-quot-.cfm?gun_id=101759347

Sweet looking gun indeed. Wrong gauge though. Never warmed up to the 16 gauge like I do the 12's. I'll keep it in mind this Sat. going to an area gun show and a dealer I know has a 12 gauge AE- 30" No. 3 wt. barrels- also has a clean VHE 12 gauge same configuration-No. 2 frame size, as Parker never used a numerical scale for barrel wts.- they just stamped it on the flats--Not to worry about me shooting myself in the foot, or any other part of my body--Every gun I handle is considered to be a loaded gun- too bad that ego-stricken actor Baldwin didn't seem to follow that caution- RWTF

Fox first I ever heard mention that you were an Amorer....

Were you by chance on PT 109 with Stan the rAceboat rebel ?

foxie, be careful...12 ga guns are a dog on the market these days...pay no more than two grand for a nice fox or parker...

Pardon my Southern but Fox ain't buying jAck Chit....

What say Foxey

pt 109...wuz dat ware eva ree body wuz ah sleep an day got run ova by ah jap de stroyer?

or is you re ferrin to anutter pt 109?

here yah go foxie...


https://www.gunbroker.com/item/917657370

Not too muckin' futch, Joseph. right now-a-days, good time to hang onto what you got, and invest cautiously in high end guns-even good pre-1964 Winchesters, not always that easy to unload at a solid profit margin as in the pre-Covid days. So this ol' Fox ain't likely to lay out $1500 for the A.H. Fox (Phila gun) AE 12 gauge #3wt, 30" Krupp barrels-at least not right now.RWTF

foxie, you jes gonna sit dare an watch yo cash pile shrink, day by day...

I know this post has devolved somewhat but in the FWIW column, I just got invited to chase a bunch of quail (like 100!) at a local pet and shoot tomorrow and I will be taking my "awful" Dickenson 28/.410 (28 tubes on a .410 frame). It worked so-well on ruffed grouse up in the North Woods I figured on quail it should be about perfect. 5 1/4 lbs of easy carry and pockets full of ammo that don't really weigh anything.



When it rains it pours I guess (as I've been cutting up deer all day today). Now I'll have to find even more room in the freezer, sheesh!

This thread is more about the failure of Dickinson Arms to properly deal with a manufacturing defect rather than the basic good design of the product!

I Have a Kreighoff Essencia boxlock (trigger plate action) 16 ga which (I think) has origins in the same Turkish, but much modified action forging. Nothing wrong with the design, just how it is put together.

I have to ask.

What makes you think your Essencia has anything to do with Turkey?
Jens Ziegenhahn sources his actions in Germany, not Turkey.

Unless something has grievously changed.

OK- but a shot at World history reveals the Kaiser Willie allied with some Turk Mustapha in WW1- and Turkish troops carried Mauset K98's , along with C96 Mauser Pistolen forever-perhaps that's where the roots of the infidels penetrating the ranks of Dem Meisterbuchenmacher Guild have their origin?? RWTF

Please try to show some restraint with your tangential retorts, Run. Not judging, just asking...
JR

CZ,

Just speculation on my part but if you compare the action of the Zigenhahn built Essencia (boxlock as Krieghoff calls it) to the Dickinson guns there is very similar basic shape & dimensions to the actions & trigger plates, the placing of the triggers & the cocking lever pivot pins are the same & both guns use shoe lump/platform lump bbls in which the which the lumps appear to be identical.

Merkel has been part of of a Turkish firearms/bbl manufacturing organization for some time & I read somewhere that Ziegehahn sourced his bbls from Merkel so draw your own conclusions from this. My Essencia carries 11/2010 Suhl proof marks so this is not a recent development.

Correction: Merkel is currently owned by CARACAL which is headquartered in the United Arab Emirates but I think there was/is a Turkish connection in the not too distant past but I can't locate the source of that info at the moment.

The Zigenhahn built Essencia action has much more detail/machine work in it (ie. replaceable hinge, pin, disc set strikers scalloped action back & the stock is secured with a conventional breech pin & hand pin arrangement as opposed to the Dickinson's draw bolt stock attachment) + the Essencia uses an Anson style forend attachment rather than the Deely style that the Dickinson uses.

I'm not knocking the Essencia or the Dickinson & I'm not suggesting Ziegenhahn sources completed actions from Turkey but I do suspect that there is some commonality in the rough action parts & possibly the lump portion of the bbl assembly between the two guns. Not much different that the same basic frames being used to produce Chevy Suburban & Cadillac Escalade SUVs or what was done w/ firearms manufacture in the British trade.

I like my Essencia (fixed choke 16 ga w/29" bbls English grip gun @ 5lb 15oz) nice handling / good looking gun w/excellent trigger pulls.

After action report....am sitting here with 20 quail to clean, plus one bonus bird (chukar). Saw some wonderful dog work and decent cover yesterday. Walked the equivalent of 5 plus miles and burned almost 85 28-gauge shells. Had a few shells not go on command (Federal 6s) but the Fiocchi 7 1/2s worked flawlessly (not sure why). The light gun and lighter shells really helped me keep up with both the dogs and the birds. Most of my fellow hunters were sucking a bit of wind by the end (as was I) but unlike the rest, I wasn't complaining about gun weight.