Busy day, I needed this. Key selling point:

"Hand polished with steel wool."

It wasn't rough-scraped with a wire wheel and buffing wheel like all your other guns are. No sir, this one was lovingly, carefully, scuffed...er..."polished"...with steel wool...by hand. This is an artisan skill, the hallmark of someone with a keen eye for quality and a meticulous aesthetic.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...amascus-2-3-4-quot-.cfm?gun_id=101739133


NDG

looks like the camera lens was also buffed

Amazing what some sellers hope a buyer will believe isn't it. Doesn't appear to be close to an 85% gun to me either, and he's way off with the mfg. date; the serial number and gun features date that gun to about 1897-98, certainly not 1905-07.

I saw that too, Tom. I just kinda glossed over that and his manfacture range after his steel wool comment. On the condition thing...I've never really decided whether people who miss obvious, glaring flaws are just purposely skating past, trying to sell the item? Of if they honestly just don't "see" it, because they don't possess a meticulous enough interest. I used to be certain is was most the former, but after some eye opening interactions, I now believe it's the latter. A large number of people just don't "see" a lot...even stuff that to you and I would be glaringly obvious.

NDG

75% of the wood is still attached to the gun?

We probably need a sticky with an unofficial glossery.

Buffed/sanded/stripped barrels = "hand polished"
Cut shotgun barrels = "coach gun" or "cowboy gun"
Cut rifle barrels = "carbine" or "saddle gun"
85% gun = "minty"
70% gun = "excellent"
50% gun = "club gun"
35% gun = "servicable" or "shooter"
utter trash = "gunsmith special"
not even uncommon = "scarce"
uncommon = "rare"
rust = "patina"

NDG

"A large number of people just don't "see" a lot...even stuff that to you and I would be glaringly obvious."

And it seems a fair number of dealers can't "see" it either, although I'm convinced they do; it's just that the profit motive is more important than personal integrity. Some may be aware of a recent northeast auction where the highlight was to be a 16-bore LC Smith Deluxe; one of only two produced. Well interestingly, it just so happens that there was another, and different 16-bore LC Smith Deluxe with the same serial number that sold at auction several years ago. So the auction company was advised that the gun they had for auction was a duplicate serial number and most likely a fake; and the photos I saw revealed that the gun was indeed an obvious fake. Not wishing to risk their reputation, the auction house revised their description to accurately reflect the gun and it sold for $15K (the auctioneer had advised me that he had received one bid of $250K prior to the gun being exposed as a fake). Now here's the kicker; the gun was being sold by the widow of the owner who had been suckered by an LC Smith "expert" into believing the gun was authentic, and therefore well worth the $120K he paid. He'd purchased this and several other now suspect Smith guns from the same individual, paying big bucks in the process; and did so going to his grave convinced that the sale of his collection would be a great retirement/nest egg strategy for his wife and kids. Obviously his widow is pissed! I understand she had already contacted the seller who still claims that that gun was "right in every detail". I know this seller and he has probably owned and sold more Smith guns than anyone living. Based on what little I know, I'm inclined to believe a fraud was committed by the seller, but I'm not an attorney? I've no idea as to the eventual outcome of this situation, but the seller has already been advised by the widow that he will be hearing from her attorney.
I've no idea how many faked high-grade Smith guns there may be floating around; but I'm aware of this gun and a fake A-3 twenty gauge. Both were sold by the same dealer and I understand the A-3 was sold for six figures also. This kind of stuff saddens and frustrates me personally, especially when this individual is a member of the LCSCA; an organization in which I've been deeply involved for so many years as regards promoting the organization, and in research of the Smith gun. I'll never say a high-grade LC can't be faked nowadays, as anything is possible; but with the detailed information we now have available, doing so will be extremely difficult. Faker's simply fail to address all the minute details.

well worn with lots of dings and scratches = character

if you are selling, refinished = restored

if you are buying, refinished = redone

high priced = collectible

unusual = unique

i like it = wonderful

price recently lowered = bargain

i could not find another one like it = rare

i like the way it looks and handles = delightful

no obvious flaws = nice

i like the way it looks = cool

nobodys altered it = original

made prior to ww2 = classic

looks pretty good = fine

if you are selling, old gun = collectible firearm

if you are buying, old gun = old gun

Tom,

WOW, a member of LCSCA, no less. That's problematic. Especially if the seller is someone on who's word collector advice is dispensed. And the problem is, not everyone will know. I mean, I see a certain fallen 'engraving book author' quoted everywhere there is mention of a famous engraver, and I think to myself...even if he really did have true knowledge and expertise...how can one believe any of it without suspecting now? How much of what he wrote was just made up to make himself sound like an expert?

Between shysters value profit over reputation, and genuinely crazy people who covet forum thread notoriety..."Beans" is NOT the only one...he just blew up the loudest, but he's still active on other forums and guys there have no idea he's 3 beers shy of a 6-pack. One of our own LACA guys almost went down a wormhole with that dude...had him hooked on some secret oddball connection between Dan Lefever and L.C. Smith, or some such nonsense. It's enough to make me sour a bit on collecting doubles. I find myself spending more time with vintage 22s. There isn't enough money in them to attract serious collectors (yet), so dealers only dabble. Ammo is cheap, and it doesn't require a drive to 'the club' to go shooting.

Besides, I've about had it with 'concerned' guys running up to me with 'safety advice' about shooting Damascus guns every time they see me dusting the course with one of my Lefevers. The last guy was in my party, and he stood 30 feet away each time I shot...amazed I just didn't seem to be dying.

"Because my brother-in-law, he told me a story about a guy...you can read it on the the internet, just Google..."

I've given up explaining. I just say something glib, like "wow that's crazy...you should definitely stand further back, then." I can't recall his name...Randy something...a gun writer. He's often quoted in these encounters, so he must be a 'leading light' of Damascus knowledge.

All the same, my guns just stubbornly refuse to blow up. So miraculously, I'm still here.

NDG

if something is too good to be true...it probably is not...

such as...very rare double guns, black powder colts and winchesters... and of course confederate guns...all in excellent condish...

It takes a ton of skill to be poor enough to avoid collector firearms of any type. I’ve spent a lifetime perfecting that skill.

Ask me about my 1100.

Best,
Ted

Never handled one of those...I'm also not clear on the difference between the 1100 and the 11-87, so please teach.

NDG

No Nudge, "Beans" is certainly not the only one who covets forum notoriety, and as a result, pure unadulterated crap gets repeated that can lead to naive people getting taken by fakers, counterfeiters, and upgraders. And unfortunately, fakes are not all that uncommon in the high grade collectible gun market. Look at the difference in the price between the $250,000 that L.C. Smith Topgun mentioned was bid up to, and the $15,000 it sold for after the facts were revealed. Quite a profit motive there. And quite a nasty hit on the widow who was selling it.

Just take a look at these statements that were made right here back in late July in the "Acier Cockerill" Thread:


Now why would anyone make that sheer conjecture stating that Krupp likely licensed Cockerill-Ougrée to produce tubes marked as "Fluss Stahl Krupp Essen" when they also had the Acier Cockerill or LLH touch mark???

And why on Earth would he make such an absurd statement only a few sentences after noting that there was a 20 ga L.C.Smith Monogram Grade gun that surfaced in 2015 that had a second set of barrels that had the L.C. Smith "Crown" stamp, the LLH stamp on the left barrel, and also are marked “Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel”??? Are we to assume that Sir Joseph Whitworth also licensed LLH to produce barrels with his name stamped or engraved on them???... with zero evidence that ever happened???

I was going to comment upon this conjecture, that some here will swallow as pure Gospel, back in July. But I figured that my comments would likely be censored. Who knows... maybe they will be censored now, even if this serves as an example of how self-styled "forum experts" or shady dealers might propagate the notion that an obvious fake might be the real deal. In our "Woke" New World, it is much more important to censor the truth than it is to hurt some sensitive feelings by confronting obvious B.S.

Me... if I am contemplating the purchase of a high grade double, and I see both an LLH or Acier Cockerill touch mark, and either "Krupp Fluss Stahl Essen" or "Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel" on the same set of barrels... I am going to put my checkbook away right now, and start looking at DNA under the fingernails evidence! I am certainly NOT going to assume that either Krupp or Sir Joseph Whitworth licensed a Belgian tube manufacturer to produce barrels with their name on them.

If there was true collecting and not hoarding there would not be such incidents.

That is a collector type question. Not relevant, I’m afraid.

Next question.

Best,
Ted

An 11-87 is different than an 1100 unless it is an 1100G3 then it is an 11-87 with 1100 marked on it. Does that clarify anything

Well described, Sir- sad details indeed regarding a highly unscrupulous dealer- shades of the late Herschel Chaddick, although his favorite for frauds was Th Old Reliable, or so I have been told. I'm gping out on a limb, just "spitballing", but I am guessing that the "Defrauder" and his "Deffraudee" live in smallish Eastern Seaboarderin States- take you pick-- one solid reason for collecting and shooting Parker Trojans and L.C. Smith Fultons--dang near impossible to counterfeit, due to frame shaping differences--RWTF

I think in all this, the thing that surprises me most, is that there are apparently a not small number of artisans who are both HIGHLY skilled and HIGHLY unethical. I guess I would presume one's ego, alone, would lessen the odds of that. People who can make rare things generally desire the acknowledgement of that. I "get" it, profit is also a strong motive. All the same...

NDG