I have thought ribs were a gimmick for a long time now. But, then so is driven bird shooting. I suppose if you like eating more than hunting then you can peg and shoot.
Ribless over unders of high quality are not new. The Boss ribless under over has been around for decades. The Browning Superposed lightweight ribless is out of the thirties. The Perazzi ribless over under is a new variation and I would like to own one. The Galazan Inverness ribless is fairly new, and rare. The Boss is the most desired and hard to locate, but the others can be found.
I am sure that an Edwinson Green 16 bore over and under that I examined many years ago had no top rib.
It dated from about 1910, give or take a few years.
B Rizzini will make you one. Offered in their round body. I have seen some listed in the UK.
He mentions in the video that Spotarms, which is where he is at shooting this video has a Boss ribless. You can view it on their web site.
Franchi went one better in their old Faconet model, they took out the side ribs too. Other European makers followed with their specialised totally ribless OU models for Woodcock hunting.
Ribs are a strange throwback. In the age of CNC and CAD (yes even in London bests) makers resort to 13th century tinmakers methods to stick unnecessary ribs and create hidden rust spots.
Ribless over unders of high quality are not new. The Boss ribless under over has been around for decades. The Browning Superposed lightweight ribless is out of the thirties. The Perazzi ribless over under is a new variation and I would like to own one. The Galazan Inverness ribless is fairly new, and rare. The Boss is the most desired and hard to locate, but the others can be found.
Here's "the Original" that all the imitation efforts are about:
https://www.gmackinlay.com/product/12g-over-under-by-boss-co-29-x-2-1-2-barrels/
Palunc, where is this "spotarms" website? Thanks.
It helps when you have that other "r" in there.
Franchi went one better in their old Faconet model, they took out the side ribs too. Other European makers followed with their specialised totally ribless OU models for Woodcock hunting.
Ribs are a strange throwback. In the age of CNC and CAD (yes even in London bests) makers resort to 13th century tinmakers methods to stick unnecessary ribs and create hidden rust spots.
Marlin beat Franchi to the draw by a couple decades. Their Model 90, going back to the 30's, had no top rib. And they took the midrib out after WWII. Savage also made an OU without a top rib (Model 420/430) in this country back before WWII. After that, they went with OU's made in other countries.
Ribs are a strange throwback. In the age of CNC and CAD (yes even in London bests) makers resort to 13th century tinmakers methods to stick unnecessary ribs and create hidden rust spots.
I have shot a Valmet O/U with no top rib, on numerous occasions, and didn't particularly care for it. I find it notable that in over 14 years of shooting with and competing against (not that I was any threat), some of the best sporting clay shooters in the world I've not seen the first one that thinks (obviously, because of what they choose to shoot with) ribs are unnecessary.
The way he was salivating over the Pirazzi I bet they made him wear a bib when he handled the Boss.
I like a wide rib like the broadway....the wider the better.
Stan I never knew you were a wOrld class shooter who sponsored you ?
Let me guess Stans bAit shop.
The comb height is far more relevant than rib/no rib. I have a Remington 10-D that has the cool grooved lines on the 30" Full barrel. It is configured as a trap gun with a moderately high stock, it shoots easy on rising targets.
Got to be the Boss for me,they handle like none of the others!!!
Whether top ribs are necessary or not depends on the shooter's preference,naturally.
I was referring more to the side ribs on OUs and the bottom ribs on SXSs which create a hidden rust trap, not to mention the weight they add. And there is that tin smithing bit which seems to go contrary to all the precision work on the rest of the gun. There is also the strange practice of externally file striking the barrels to lighten them AFTER the ribs are laid, which by definition must lead to non concentric barrel walls, perhaps this is what Robin Brown had in mind when commenting about strength in the quotation below.
Dewey VIcknair on his site has pics of the rust revealed when ribs are removed for relaying. There are interesting pics here
http://oplognosia.com/?p=12389of the Alex Martin ribless SXS and a horrifying pic of a SXS with a burst. The rust weakened barrel burst, blowing off the ribs and bursting the other, also rust weakened barrel. I photographed the user's left arm too but that was too shocking to show.
Here is an excerpt re the Martin ribless guns made by A.A. Brown. The writer quotes one of the Brown gunmakers comments about ribless guns:
"Robin Brown explained that the Browns had made "many of the ribless guns for Alex Martin" and many of the XXVs sold by E. J. Churchill. Alex Martin advertised that its ribless guns were "lighter, stronger and better balanced than guns of ordinary construction." Other advantages claimed were: 1) A quarter pound of useless metal is removed. 2) Removing this weight from the barrels makes the gun lighter forward, giving the left arm less work, more control, and an easier swing. 3) The usual hollow space between the barrels in which corrosion can take place undetected is eliminated. Guns in which the barrels were constructed with spacers at the breech, muzzle, and mid-barrel have a long tradition with Scotland's gunmakers—both Daniel Fraser and James MacNaughton made them."
What is said applies I think to the side ribs of OUs.
I agree with Stan, a rib is an asset when shooting for the big bucks. However, I had my Galazan Inverness made without a rib because the gun looked so much like a Boss that I thought I would add that Boss feature. I have handled ribless Boss guns with 29" barrels and wouldn't fire the first shell out of them without a six ounce weight clamped to the lower barrel. Some of them weigh just over six pounds and balance terribly. When Don Shrum's collection came out, I had a chance to buy a mint ribless 29" Boss for very short money. I turned it down because it felt so bad in my hands. Of course, now I wish I owned it because it is worth about $50,000 more than it was offered to me for.
You and bOb Cash should get together and write a book....
Try a Perazzi ribless, which has a top rib but no side ribs. It was an option long before the Sportarm appeared.
The Beretta BL-1 is ribless, and in 12 gauge weighs 6 1/2lbs. I always thought with a little customization a BL-1 could be a diamond in the rough...without the expensive price tag of some other shotguns.
NCT the opening photo of this article:
http://oplognosia.com/?p=10506shows the personal OU of the Manton Gun company director, who was the former production manager for Holland and Holland. I believe it started life as a BL1, in Europe it has the model name Essential.
I looked at the Sportarm website, and whilst appreciating the Boss is being offered for about half the cost Boss would charge you to buy it new from them, to my mind the 1904 Edwinson Green 12 bore side lock ejector at about £5K looks to be far better value.
Shame that I haven’t got the spare £5K to put my money where my mouth is!
All the talk about great handling and low weight, due to lack of ribs is kinda lost on me. For that matter, all the bashing of the whole concept of ribs because of some perceived backwards or antiquated idea that the gun is less sound and prone to deterioration from rust, is too. Guns have been successfully built this way for hundreds of years, and I dare say if the world lasts another century and doubleguns are still around, they still will be. Why? Because "it" works. We're shooting 100+ year old guns that were built this way and they're sound as a dollar (okay, bad example).The ultimate critics are the consumers. When there becomes more that an infinitesimally small handful of people who demand ribless guns the makers may begin to notice. Ribs have reasons for being. A field gun without ribs becomes a place for twigs and other trash to get hungup, and accumulate.Top ribs contribute to better shooting and some of us like the wide ones like on many of the old Philly Fox guns. Krieghoffs have been built without side ribs, and other makes as well, for target work, for decades. Are they better than the best target guns with side ribs? Not IMO. Light weight alone does not necessarily contribute to better shooting, and "better handling" is still a moving target that people grasp for, even when they have no clue what it is.
Tell me about the gun that you picked up at the range and shot a round with, and shot the highest score of your life. Tell me about the gun you carried to a dove field and shot 80% with, when you're normally a 50% shooter. Tell me about the little quail gun that you can't miss with, when you've always shot your old favorite with mediocre success. Then, we'll try to determine what, and why, these guns made a difference in your shooting. But, if all you've got to tout is " it's different", "it's radical" or "it's lighter than it's counterparts", or "it's got no place for rust to hide", count me as uninterested.
I hear Yiltz is coming out with a ribb'less fOe tin.
Stan has Yiltz contacted you for your input yet ?
A comment from someone who makes a living out of relaying ribs is an answer to Stanton. It is from Art Isaacson, of Art's Gunshop..
"There are two kinds of ribs, those that came unstuck and those that will become unstuck".
For me, seeing the rust when ribs are lifted off, is enough to prove that side ribs (and bottom ribs on a SXS) do more harm than good. Top ribs are a pointing aid for many shooter and in any case, they do not create hidden rust traps.
I’ll have to look at my 12 gauge Darne P-19, but I know that my 10 gauge Darne R-10 has only a top rib. That contributes to its being a very svelte (for a 10 gauge) 7 pounds 3 ounces.
A comment from someone who makes a living out of relaying ribs is an answer to Stanton. It is from Art Isaacson, of Art's Gunshop..
"There are two kinds of ribs, those that came unstuck and those that will become unstuck".
For me, seeing the rust when ribs are lifted off, is enough to prove that side ribs (and bottom ribs on a SXS) do more harm than good. Top ribs are a pointing aid for many shooter and in any case, they do not create hidden rust traps.
I've pulled damaged top ribs off more than one Fox that are nearing centenary status. No significant rust, certainly not enough to cause any pitting. Not saying all doubleguns are like that. Art may well be right, and I may be wrong .......maybe we just haven't waited long enough, eh? Maybe it'll just take another hundred years or so to prove his prediction.
You make it sound like every double gun with side ribs and bottom ribs are dying of cancer and rusting through to the bores, and we'd be better off not shooting them at all. Meanwhile, the rest of the double gunning world goes about business as usual, shooting these doomed double barrels.
Wonder if Art lumps all doubles with ribs into the same category. Even those with brazed on ribs, I suppose.
The sky is not falling, SL.
The sky is not falling.... till it does when an unlucky owner is faced with the cost of relaying ribs. God help him if it is a best gun.
What is the use of the side ribs on OUs and the bottom rib on SXS? It is not structural, gunmakers themselves often state that the ribs do not hold barrels together. They provide no function in pointing.
Their rust trapping potential is undeniable and often seen in photographs.
Darne did away with the bottom rib on some models, Martin did away with both bottom and top ribs. Numerous OUs have no side ribs with no loss in performance.
Rather than side and bottom ribs it might be a better idea to exploit the weight savings and keep some barrel wall thickness that is way more useful.
As for brazed on ribs, there the whole barrel assembly is brought to 650 degrees centigrade just to stick on those bits of rib, it is thermal overkill, done to avoid loose ribs in low grade guns.
A comment from someone who makes a living out of relaying ribs is an answer to Stanton. It is from Art Isaacson, of Art's Gunshop..
"There are two kinds of ribs, those that came unstuck and those that will become unstuck".
For me, seeing the rust when ribs are lifted off, is enough to prove that side ribs (and bottom ribs on a SXS) do more harm than good. Top ribs are a pointing aid for many shooter and in any case, they do not create hidden rust traps.
Art has decades of experience and knows his audience well---just view his videos on Youtube and you will see that he one of the most expert gunsmiths of Brownings in the world. His reputation is stellar.
So with that in mind I ask myself who was his audience when he said that? Was it a covey of amateur gun enthusiast or maybe a gun writer who had not practical experience at the gunsmith's bench? If I had been there (I am also an old guy like Art) I would have likely asked " Well, Art is that what I can expect as to the life of ribs on my shotgun barrels that you re-layed for me in your shop?" He would have grinned and said "no, my re-layed ribs last forever."
This is exactly what happens on 80% of shotguns --the ribs last for a lifetime of shooting.
I remember a long discussion with the late Jack Rowe of Birmingham gun trade, and the discussion of how barrels and ribs have to be properly tinned with acid flux and solder (preferable 95-100% Tin) and then the barrels and ribs washed in hot water and a neutralizer to remove 100% of the traces of acid--then then ribs are re-layed with rosin and solder. I also remember him talking about those gunmakers and gunsmiths who did not remove the acid completely which in true Jack Rowe form he called them " Shitty Gunmakers".
The Perazzi that prompted this discussion is certainly nice. However, OU's will benefit from a ventilated rib if they are intended for high-volume shooting. The ventilated rib will dissipate the heat and associated heatwave visual distortions that appear above the barrel when the barrels get hot. I have an OU with a solid top rib that will develop heatwave distortions during a quick round of skeet. No issues with similar guns using ventilated ribs. So, yes, at least ventilated ribs serve a purpose. Brister and others have also written about the benefit of top ribs.
Bushveld, Reading your description of the proper laying of ribs leads to the thought "why do all this for bits that provide no functional benefit".
The top rib has a function, as Bluestem notes. Plus, top ribs do not provide hidden rust places and if they come loose there is only one rib to relay, in a gun that has no side ribs that is. As for the handling gains, they could be had, in a Boss or other OU, by omitting the side ribs and keeping the top rib. That would merit the title ribless more than the removal of the top rib alone.
I wish I could post comments made by gunsmiths when they relay ribs, they involve the mother and sisters of the guy who invented ribs, in English, Italian and Spanish. The comments are as inventive as the contraptions gunsmiths make to hold ribs while soldering.
Bushveld, Reading your description of the proper laying of ribs leads to the thought "why do all this for bits that provide no functional benefit".
A question that maybe you would do well to spend more time considering. The best gunmakers in the world devised the bottom, and side ribs for S X Ss and O/Us. A very, very small number of guns without those ribs were made to try to create a niche market, in hopes the creators could convince the world that everyone else was wrong. Since the world hasn't beaten a path to their doors, doesn't that raise a red flag for you? It does me. They haven't built a better mousetrap.
On the same line of thought, why hasn't wood been replaced with synthetics on ALL new guns built? Wood is arcane, unstable, it shrinks, it cracks, it breaks. I dare say there is at least as big a business in the gun repair trade restocking old doubleguns as there is relaying their ribs. Why hasn't some stable, lightweight, material replaced wood? Because wood looks right, it has beauty. Same thing with ribs on shotguns. Looking at a ribless shotgun leaves me feeling sorry for it, kinda like a castrated boydog.
Anyway, interesting discussion, and my opinion is just that, mine alone and carries no more weight than anyone else's. Thanks for your thoughts, but as I said earlier ........... count me unconvinced.
It was an aesthetics thing all along. The gap between the barrels is visually bothersome. It can be dealt with without resorting to the process described by Bushveld above.
But aesthetics does have the upper hand. I plead guilty, I put a high grade walnut stock and forend on a Baikal single barrel.
Bushveld, Reading your description of the proper laying of ribs leads to the thought "why do all this for bits that provide no functional benefit".
The top rib has a function, as Bluestem notes. Plus, top ribs do not provide hidden rust places and if they come loose there is only one rib to relay, in a gun that has no side ribs that is. As for the handling gains, they could be had, in a Boss or other OU, by omitting the side ribs and keeping the top rib. That would merit the title ribless more than the removal of the top rib alone.
I wish I could post comments made by gunsmiths when they relay ribs, they involve the mother and sisters of the guy who invented ribs, in English, Italian and Spanish. The comments are as inventive as the contraptions gunsmiths make to hold ribs while soldering.
I can understand your disappointment in not have the knowledge and ability to post comments by gunsmiths. It takes a long time to learn the trade and in this regard and for example it took me considerable time to learn how to make barrel sets and several years to learn the basics of engraving. But do not despair. Not everyone has the technical ability and mechanical skills to be a gunsmith and that is OK, the same person may have the artistic talent to be an outstanding engraver. I do not have this artistic ability and will only ever be at best a craftsman engraver. I have found that to my way of thinking it is more important for me to understand my inabilities and focus on reinforcing them than otherwise. However, there is one ability that I have that has helped me greatly it is that I know that I do not know what I do not know.
As to the discussion of whether guns should have ribs, I have little to no interest in that. My interest lies in proper making and installation of barrel ribs. For example few gunsmiths understand that the smaller the gap between the rib and barrel in its fitting and soldering the greater the strength. It seems counter intuitive that a .001" gap between the barrel and the rib is greatly stronger after soldering than a .003"-.004" gap, but it is.
Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell
[quote=Shotgunlover]Bushveld, Reading your description of the proper laying of ribs leads to the thought "why do all this for bits that provide no functional benefit".
I have found that to my way of thinking it is more important for me to understand my inabilities and focus on reinforcing them than otherwise. However, there is one ability that I have that has helped me greatly it is that I know that I do not know what I do not know.
As to the discussion of whether guns should have ribs, I have little to no interest in that. My interest lies in proper making and installation of barrel ribs. For example few gunsmiths understand that the smaller the gap between the rib and barrel in its fitting and soldering the greater the strength. It seems counter intuitive that a .001" gap between the barrel and the rib is greatly stronger after soldering than a .003"-.004" gap, but it is.
Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell
'The Master said, Yu, shall I teach you what knowledge is? When you know a thing, to recognize that you know it, and when you do not know a thing, to recognize that you do not know it. That is knowledge."
Confucius, 551-479 BC, from Analects
i know very little, but i would ask for opinions regarding French guns (such as the Manufrance Ideal) which utilize an I beam type rib, that is one piece and centrally located between the tubes. this seems inherently superior, as is claimed by MF. it is held in "tension" between the tubes and it's monolithic nature would seem to be much less likely to permit separation than the usual two piece rib, which is fundamentally wedged between the diverging tube radius, and depends entirely upon precise fitting and careful soldiering skills.
best regards,
tom
Michael McIntosh has a chapter entitled "Lore: Barrel Flip" in his book More Shotguns and Shooting. In it he talks about how the dynamic forces of the shot create barrel flexing and harmonic vibration, which is influenced by barrel orientation (i.e. OU vs SxS) and barrel length (long barrels flex more than short barrels and have a longer degree of arc from the chamber). He notes that on a SxS the center of the shot swarm will angle low right from the start and the distance will grow "geometrically with distance." This can be mitigated by a properly fitted stock. OU's are more rigid vertically and "they aren't as affected by harmonic vibration." Thus, according to MM's chapter (with a reference to Burrard), factors that influences the amount of barrel flex and harmonic vibration will also influence the the amount of barrel flip. Ribs on a SxS certainly contribute to the overall rigidity of the barrel assembly, which will influence barrel flip and the associated point of impact.
I've had two top ribs to come loose from shooting, a Perazzi and a Valmet, both of which are were soft soldered when built. I lost no sleep over having to have either one relaid. My sky didn't fall, it didn't even rain. I consider it a cost of doing business.
BTW, never have had a bottom or side rib to come loose. Hmmm........
Graybeard,
Re the one piece Ideal rib. One English trained gunsmith dealing with his first Ideal repair called it "the cleverest thing the French ever invented". It saved him a lot of fitting and fiddling with clamps and wedges.
Graybeard,
Re the one piece Ideal rib. One English trained gunsmith dealing with his first Ideal repair called it "the cleverest thing the French ever invented". It saved him a lot of fitting and fiddling with clamps and wedges.
What is their procedure for regulation of the barrels, before finishing off?
"I can understand your disappointment in not have the knowledge and ability to post comments by gunsmiths."
Modesty and forum standards, not lack of (anatomical) knowledge held me from repeating some of the phrases. LOL
Ted is the resident expert in French guns, perhaps he knows how the I beam ribs were fitted before soldering atthe factory.
I have seen the "I" ribs off the guns during repairs. The barrels grip the "I" beam rib pretty firmly along the whole length and need light clamping only at the muzzles during soldering. The process looked much easier and was faster than that used in two rib relaying.
The ribs I saw being relaid were all swamped ribs sitting pretty low between the barrels. I do not know if Manufrance made "I" ribs in any other shape other than swamped for the Ideal.
[/quote] However, I had my Galazan Inverness made without a rib because the gun looked so much like a Boss[/quote]
The csmc O/Us with the Italian Brecia(sp?) looking actions all have what look to me like an "I" beam mid rib. This doesn't apply to the Christian Hunter and I haven't looked closely at an A10. I know this is a little off topic but the one piece mid rib was brought up in conversation, and I've never heard it mentioned before regarding the csmc guns.
BTW I understand you ordered yours without a top rib.