I've never really noticed this on any of my 12-bores before but... on sub-gauge guns I occasionally center a bird and it still flies off. I've had it happen twice today and once yesterday. In the past I somewhat blamed the ammo (7/8 ounce 16-bore loads) but these were 1-ounce RSTs. Today was a fairly blatant example where everything around the bird was clearly impacted and it escaped anyway, seemingly unscathed, with not a feather out of place (at least none I could later find). Ruffed grouse are exceedingly thin-skinned creatures in my experience and don't normally require a very hard hit to be taken, so I can't really explain it adequately to myself. I closely examined my normally-lethal Brummie 16 tonight for any visual clues as to what might be happening and then scrubbed the bejesus out of the tubes on my weapon. I will head out again tomorrow but....my faith is a bit shaken. If I hadn't already bagged several birds I would be even more concerned but...

I think grouse are a bit tougher than many folks really believe. Unless they just get hammered, you have to break a wing. It has little to do with ‘dirty’ barrels imho.

It happens. I doubt a dirty barrel changes a pattern much, but, felt wads compared to the plastic version of same sure the hell does. I remember Zutz giving recipes in books he wrote for loads to tighten or loosen patterns, but, I’ve only played with factory ammunition, and the promo stuff, in 12 gauge, all seems to pattern more densely then my chokes seem to be marked. My variety on the little gauges isn’t varied enough to make the call.

Remember, we call it “hunting” and not “killing”.

Best,
Ted

I agree with the above and would add that it's very easy to misread where your pattern went, by what you see as impact on the ground, in tree leaves, or on the water. I'm not saying you are wrong about having the bird in the center of your pattern, but at least accept that it is possible that you misread it, and that you didn't. Have you patterned the gun with these loads? And, maybe more importantly, have you shot the gun on a plate or large paper to "register" point of aim with point of impact?

All my patterning I've ever done has been with a dirty barrel, at least after the first shot. And, I've never seen one smidgen of difference.

One ounce of shot inside of 30 yards, with the bird centered in the pattern, should be a dead bird, regardless the gauge, if the shot size is sufficient and you're not getting blown patterns for some reason..

Ted: I tell myself that too. It's been a few years since I went through Zutz's book (always felt badly for his wife, driving that car) but I don't doubt the differences that plastic shot cups make over felt wads (I still have a few felt wad 20-gauge loads laying around in my gunroom and I eye them with some suspicion). If these RSTs were felt, I'd clearly try to blame them for this situation, but these are premium loads with modern shot cups. Unless RST has had a hiccup in their system at some time, I'm at a loss to explain this.

I have seen this happen to others, but I've never had this happen to me with a 12, only subgauge guns. Not hard to figure out why 12s are so successful. I had a 20 a few years ago that did this to me way too-often and I basically gave up on the gauge. 12s just do the job, day in and day out, so when you try to go away from that more lethal (but clearly more heavy) gauge you have a trade-off in lethality. 16s, with their 1-ounce loads seemed to be the best option for my needs and I've never doubted them...until lately.

Maybe you just missed

Stan: I have patterned this gun with these loads and was nothing but impressed. I'll pattern it again to confirm that fact (& for my own peace of mind). You're all right in that I have likely mis-read what I saw and have somehow missed what I was shooting at. I have been switching back and forth between this English gun and my little Turkish 28, so that may be playing into this. The English gun has much more lead built into it.

Some days the gun just has a bad day. It’s not you, the shooter, but the gun itself which suddenly fails to operate correctly as if it forgets how to form a perfect pattern. Your gun just had one of those days. Give it another chance to do better today. Give it a good talking to and try to encourage it to have a nice day.

Out it comes. Happens to me too frequently.

The late Ken Eyster who did a lot of custom choke & pattern regulation work for competition shooters would only evaluate patterns shot from well fouled barrels & felt that unfouled bbls
didn't produce optimum patterns.

I don't know if he was correct on this & any of my guns( hunting or competition) w/unchromed bbls always get the bbls wiped out at the end of the day.

For what it's worth, I have more "mystery misses" on grouse than any other bird so now I can add clean bbs to my list of excuses after the dog looks up at me in disgust.

I'm certainly not one of the experts here, but I always heard that dirty barrels made patterns tighter. It really does not matter to me because I'll clean my barrels at the first opportunity no matter what. The only time I've ever worried about shooting dirty barrels has been on hot barrel SA dove shoots where the plastic melts in my chambers and barrels...Geo

This may be an interesting topic to consider; do pitted barrels pattern better than smooth un-pitted barrels? I personally disdain pitted barrel tubes, but being that I collect and shoot vintage double guns and that such guns often have varying degrees of barrel pitting, is there a difference between the shooting qualities of those guns with pitted barrels and those with excellent bores. I haven't noticed any with the guns I've used but that could be attributed to the fact that my reloads use shot cups which serve to lessen pellet deformation. But, as regards pitted bores, I read a piece years ago (and I can't remember the source) whereby the author claimed that at one time some shooters subscribed to the theory that pitted barrels produced better patterns than un-pitted barrels; and further, that many such shooters often pissed thru their barrel tubes to hasten the pitting process. I've never been inclined to try this method myself; but has anyone experimented with and/or compared patterns produced by pitted vs. un-pitted barrels?

Hmm..????
Switching of guns and then unaccountable misses....could be a case of switching eye dominance?

Nash Buckingham's "Shootinist Gent'man_ Capt. Harold Money, shot a Win M97 12 bore, and reportedly never cleaned the barrel-humm? RWTF

As much as I sometimes would like to, blaming the equipment is usually the wrong course of action. Misses happen. Good days, bad days. That sort of thing.

As for dirty barrels, top level competition shooters can burn through several hundred rounds in a day. I am unaware of any of them, as in any, worrying about filth in their barrels. Some will even say they only clean their guns once or twice a year. And they keep breaking targets.

Tom: Greener seemed to think that "burnished" barrels improved patterns; 30,000 rounds with improved full choke pattern
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA227

I've not come across any study, vintage or modern, directly comparing pitted (and how to determine the level of pitting?) with smooth bores.
Of course a number of trap barrel specialist smiths, and their disciples, claim improved patterns with bore honing and choke magic

"Pattern Testing Results - Four Guns, One with a Wilkinson Barrel"
Neil Winston's comments start on p.6 and continue but unfortunately the images have been lost
https://www.trapshooters.com/thread...guns-one-with-a-wilkinson-barrel.302858/

I wonder if the buildup of plastic in the chokes might tighten the patterns if not properly cleaned. I've noticed that the buildup is particularly severe in my Guerini 28 gauge for some reason, but the choke tubes are easy to remove and soak and then run a brass brush on a handheld electric drill through.

I always foul the barrels of my competition gun before I start a tournament. I’m not sure if it’s really necessary, but it is for me. Otherwise, I may be thinking about that instead of the job at hand. Too much conscious mind and then a miss….

I have put over 1500 rounds through my 687 SP II Sporting in three hours and never noticed that the patterns tightened discernibly, shooting doves. The plastic would build up in the extended, and ported, chokes I was shooting, and a stainless steel tornado brush on a short handle would quickly remove it before the next shoot. I also cannot prove it doesn't tighten the pattern some, but when you're shooting that fast it's hard to notice. I was using IM and IC chokes most of the time.

Good question, R40X

Some people just worry too much....

Well....switched out guns and went back to killing birds dependably. Something changed because this gun used to throw shot exactly where I looked. I've had several unexplained misses lately (which were very troubling). Shot my 28 today and killed everything I pointed it at, and I think I've figured it out....my face changed. My wife's been stress baking lately (& I'm eating very well on this vacation) and...I've gained weight. I shoot left and when I cheek the gun it throws right now.

Well, what is a baked goods loving guy to do? Seems to me, the options are bend the stock a bit more, or, perish the thought, spend more time at the salad bar?

Curious to know how you approach this problem. Further, I wonder a bit about the guys who proclaim about unregulated barrels, after being cautioned by good English gunmakers, when the problem might be closer to home, so to speak.

I would have expected you to gain some weight with the step counts you were seeing, but, I would have guessed it was dense muscle replacing less dense muscle, or, fat at the end of the day. No offense intended, but, work makes you stronger and heavier.

That gorgeous little 16 is too nice to leave in the cabin.

Best,
Ted

eat less, think less...shoot more...