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this thread is for you guys who wish to carry on the debate...on infernidummmm....
this looks interesting...

https://www.google.com/search?q=is+it+safe+to+shoot+smokeless+in+twist+barrels+%3F&rlz=1CATMUU_enUS964&oq=is+it+safe+to+shoot+smokeless+in+twist+barrels+%3F&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60.2201j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
ONLY IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!
how bout dis...the last paragraph in particular...

https://randywakeman.com/WeldedShotgunBarrels.pdf
Originally Posted by ed good
how biut dis...the last paragraph in particular...

https://randywakeman.com/WeldedShotgunBarrels.pdf

You’re a bigger dip$hit than Randy Wakeman, and that’s saying something right there.
well fusil, here is a link to wakeman's credentials...

https://randywakeman.com/about.htm

care to show yours?
I thought that the "Damascus Roulette" group had disappeared. Sherman Bell's articles, along with Doc Drew's posts here, pretty much answer that question.
Originally Posted by L. Brown
I thought that the "Damascus Roulette" group had disappeared. Sherman Bell's articles, along with Doc Drew's posts here, pretty much answer that question.

I was never a Damascus guy, Larry, but, I have moved on from being an old gun guy. Once you get to about the 1920s in age, the quality of steel used goes up logarithmically, and old wood is often nobodies friend. I don’t want to be the guy holding the bag on a stocked to the fences turn of the last century gun that needs a restock, or rebarrel.

Some Damascus ages better than others.

Best,
Ted
Edd is a con man finding a non-existent problem and saving everyone from it.
Originally Posted by L. Brown
I thought that the "Damascus Roulette" group had disappeared. Sherman Bell's articles, along with Doc Drew's posts here, pretty much answer that question.

We have seen examples of Damascus and Twist barrels that have blown up. We have also seen plenty of examples of Fluid Steel barrels that have blown up. The reasons they blew up have been varied. Some have blown due to overloads or bore obstructions. Some have blown due to dents, pitting, or being honed thin. Some have blown due to hidden defects within the metal.

The debate continues, and it will continue long after Ed is gone. There are still Skeet Clubs and shooting venues that won't permit shooting of Damascus guns for "Liability" reasons. And every so often, we will continue to hear or read about a Damascus, Twist, or Fluid Steel barrel that blows up for some reason or other. However, there is no comparison between the research done by Sherman Bell (or Buck Hamlin for that matter) and what Doc Drew has posted here. Sherman Bell conducted a series of tests to confirm or disprove what had been written and stated as fact about Damascus barrels for years. He performed actual destructive testing using loads of increasing pressure until his test barrels failed in dramatic fashion. He tested both Damascus and Fluid Steel barrels from the same gun maker using the same increasing loads. He worked with Tom Armbrust so the pressures produced by his loads were a known quantity. He personally analyzed the results, and recognized and stated the limitations of his testing, i.e., the limited sample size, etc.

Mr. Bell then continued testing to learn even more, and published the results in several detailed articles in the Double Gun Journal. The Preacher, on the other hand, has not done any of this sort of destructive testing, and has admitted that he only owns one Damascus barreled L. C. Smith OE grade with thin, pitted barrels. What he Copies and Pastes as Threads and Posts here is the work and research of other people... including Sherman Bell. Regurgitating the work done by others is no great revelation.

Since the recent death of the Damascus researcher Peter Mikalajunas, known here as PeteM, even his Damascus website and Damascus video links have been replaced with a blunt warning that you will blow your hand off if you shoot your Damascus barreled gun. The links to Pete's excellent website and copyrighted video is now redirected to https://gunlawsuits.org/glossary/damascus-barrels/

www.damascus-barrels.com

http://www.damascus-barrels.com/Movie.html

I still wish there was some way we could contact Pete's family to see if the contents of his website and his Damascus video was stored on a disc or hard drive, and could somehow be permanently archived in the FAQ forum here. It's a shame to see all of that knowledge lost forever.


Like the current debate with the Covid19 vaccines... there will continue to be believers and skeptics. I got the Moderna vaccine, and I shoot Damascus barreled guns with low pressure smokeless loads. No problem with either so far. I only wish I knew about Sherman Bell's results when I passed on great deals on a Damascus B Grade Lefever and a Damascus A Grade Harrington and Richardson (and many other nice Damascus guns), because I thought they were only good for wall hangers.
since when is asking questions and posting opinions a con?
I also believe Randy Wakeman is a dipshit. Have You read any of his scribelings? He is a gun writer who will pimp any crap that someone pays for. What Law enforcement agency would allow him to consult ? Ed Send him a couple of bucks and he will tout torched colored gun actions.
The American gun companies at the turn of the century touted their composite steel guns could handle any of the new nitro powders. Sherman Bell's work also shows this to be true. I don't load low pressure smokelss because I think the barrels might come apart if I don't, I load low pressure to save the wood and the recoil is easy on my old shoulders. Pressure is pressure no matter how you slice it. Get a wall thickness gauge and be smart about it. Everything in life is a risk. Just learn to deal with it!
well, what about what wakefield says about scale?
12bore: do you have a barrel wall thickness gauge? if so, pls share with us the thicknesses you consider safe for twist barrels...
Depends on the gun. Each gun is evaluated on a case by case basis.
keith, included in this old thread is a post by petem, in which he shows us a barrel drawing from 1891 that gives us some valuable data re suggested barrel wall thicknesses for twist type barrels...maybe there are more examples of pete's research that are waiting for discovery...


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=149280&page=1
Originally Posted by ed good
since when is asking questions and posting opinions a con?

It has more to do with motive.

John
Cuzin John one could see motive in your reply.

I shot black and smokeless out of my Damascus guns one thing I did notice was a different feel or ring in the barrels with smokeless powder.

I also moved on from antique guns....if I had a do over I'd only shoot proper black powder looking back I think smokeless powder is too hard on old Damascus guns.....reguardless of pressure. .
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Originally Posted by L. Brown
I thought that the "Damascus Roulette" group had disappeared. Sherman Bell's articles, along with Doc Drew's posts here, pretty much answer that question.

I was never a Damascus guy, Larry, but, I have moved on from being an old gun guy. Once you get to about the 1920s in age, the quality of steel used goes up logarithmically, and old wood is often nobodies friend. I don’t want to be the guy holding the bag on a stocked to the fences turn of the last century gun that needs a restock, or rebarrel.

Some Damascus ages better than others.

Best,
Ted

Ted, I think you took a bit of a diversion from the subject at hand. You're basically questioning whether we ought to shoot guns with Damascus barrels--or even century old guns with fluid steel barrels--with any loads. Most people who do so aren't likely to be using the heaviest and fastest modern shotshells in those guns. That's a personal call. You choose not to make it and provide your reasons for making that choice. Others go the other way and manage to avoid catastrophic failures.
Not questioning whether you should do it, Larry. Just pointing out that down here in Journeyman card land, where I reside, old guns can be a bridge too far. A few guys here need to hear what a money pit an old gun can be.

Best,
Ted

_______________________________________________________
Enough extra funds on hand to avoid living in Detroit is a good thing.
Sherman Bells tests only proved what they proved about the particular Damascus gun barrel he was testing.
Ted I never experienced the money pit on any I had....because I played it really careful and only fooled with higher graded good condition guns. I'd send an online purchase back in a New York minute.

A few guys at my club were scared to let me look at some they bought....because I'd see the faults they missed.

Higher grade guns back then had higher grade barrels on them....field grade had cheaper made lower graded barrels. I figured if I was going to risk eye or limb I'd hedge my bet.
Better to stay safe in your recliner and maintain that armchair xspurt status you have worked so hard to obtain frAnk.

It must suck to be that afraid of living.

Ted, I disagree with your take on shooting old guns. If you learn to buy old guns in nice shape they are rarely money pits. Becoming an educated buyer is not for everyone though, it takes work and finding the right gun takes patience. I waited years before I found the gun for me.

I shoot almost nothing but vintage guns and I rarely need to work on them(never have touched either of my shotguns for repair). My hunting partner shoots a British SxS from the 1880's and has put tens of thousands of rounds through it without a hiccup. Find one that has been well maintained and fits you, feed it appropriate ammo and you will rarely be disappointed.
Originally Posted by SKB
Better to stay safe in your recliner and maintain that armchair xspurt status you have worked so hard to obtain frAnk.

It must suck to be that afraid of living.

Ted, I disagree with your take on shooting old guns. If you learn to buy old guns in nice shape they are rarely money pits. Becoming an educated buyer is not for everyone though, it takes work and finding the right gun takes patience. I waited years before I found the gun for me.

I shoot almost nothing but vintage guns and I rarely need to work on them(never have touched either of my shotguns for repair). My hunting partner shoots a British SxS from the 1880's and has put tens of thousands of rounds through it without a hiccup. Find one that has been well maintained and fits you, feed it appropriate ammo and you will rarely be disappointed.

So, you got, like, what, three old guns, and your buddy has one? There have been far more horror stories than that right here over the years. Ever read about Terry Weiand’s Hussey? You are a gunsmith, I get it, but, there are lots of guys, maybe guys who punch a clock, who would be better served not trying to find good, old guns. If your buddy has an exceptional British gun from the 1880s, at the very least be honest, and admit that it is a rare find to discover any gun that old still in good, usable condition, and that it is a lucky find and not something everyone is going to pull off this week, or month or year. Your friend likely grasps that it has specific requirements for use in order for him to keep using it. You would be amazed at the people right here who don’t.

If you know what you are getting into, that is one thing. If you are going to see to the care, use and maintenance requirements, that is one thing. But, if you think that old gun will be your everyday shooter with off the shelf ammunition, and won’t ever need much more than a good cleaning, you might be better served with something newer. Like it or not, bunches of guys in a fit of nostalgia write the check for the gun first, and discover the limitations, or worse, problems, after viewing an internet posting of a gun for sale.

Producing steel was a new and developing science circa 1900. By 1920 it was much better sorted, and by 1945 it was pretty much mastered. Even run of the mill guns are built of better steel after the war.

Best,
Ted
I have a few more than 3 old guns, as does my hunting partner and many, many of my other clients. Guns from the 1880's in that condition are rare? That would depend upon your definition of rare, I have a safe full of them. The idea is that if you are looking for a good quality vintage gun, pay real money for condition. You pay for condition up front but you save on repairs. Buy low mileage, feed it properly, maintain it well and enjoy. No you cannot go to Wallyworld and buy ammo, yes you have to look after it, but many of us here are in the game for nostalgia. Would an auto loader be a more efficient Pheasant gun for me? Most likely but I have zero interest in that. Pretty sure you could shoot more grouse off an atv with a .22 than you are killing over your Setter, sure not much nostalgia in that though is there?

Yes indeed, steel certainly improved with time. That said, I have a lovely London built .500bpe from the 1870's with steel barrels that are holding up just fine for the intended purpose.

Besides, shopping for the keepers is half the fun. This one was built in 1894, all original and gets out to play sometimes.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
There you go SKB, consider yourself educated. Ted knows everything about everything.
seems like no one wants to address the scale issue...


well. then there is the thing about the use of acid flux in the 1800's to solder shotgun barrels together...the acid keeps working long after the barrels are joined...eventually resulting in paper thin barrel walls between the ribs...
Originally Posted by SKB
I have a few more than 3 old guns, as does my hunting partner and many, many of my other clients. Guns from the 1880's in that condition are rare? That would depend upon your definition of rare, I have a safe full of them. The idea is that if you are looking for a good quality vintage gun, pay real money for condition. You pay for condition up front but you save on repairs. Buy low mileage, feed it properly, maintain it well and enjoy. No you cannot go to Wallyworld and buy ammo, yes you have to look after it, but many of us here are in the game for nostalgia. Would an auto loader be a more efficient Pheasant gun for me? Most likely but I have zero interest in that. Pretty sure you could shoot more grouse off an atv with a .22 than you are killing over your Setter, sure not much nostalgia in that though is there?

Yes indeed, steel certainly improved with time. That said, I have a lovely London built .500bpe from the 1870's with steel barrels that are holding up just fine for the intended purpose.

Besides, shopping for the keepers is half the fun. This one was built in 1894, all original and gets out to play sometimes.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

My point, which, you sorta’ made for me, is, it takes money to be in that game. You missed it, twice. Not many Journeymen have the depth of pockets to get into the lightly used guns, or, to pay the right guy to heal one up.


Originally Posted by Hammergun
There you go SKB, consider yourself educated. Ted knows everything about everything.

Hardly. But, good to know who is a useless commentator on the subject at hand.

Got anything of value to add?

Best,
Ted
You do not have to start with Henry or Holland sidelocks you know Ted. I am not a wealthy man but I am able to outfit myself with some nice guns. I also drive a 2004 Toyota with 200K miles on it. Many folks buy a new 65K Pick up every few years which depreciates more than my Holland cost me as soon as you drive it off the lot. Life is full of choices, I enjoy hunting with fine guns and do not mind the cost. I put good money into bird dogs as well and have never regretted the capital invested in either.

Years ago, my first two Springers and my first really nice English gun. A Lincoln Jefferies BLNE that was nearly new when I bought it at the Vegas show in 2002. It had pretty much all its case colors, and had seen little use. I spent a whole 2500$ on it and shot a ton of wild birds with that gun from the Canadian border to Southern Kansas without ever having an issue with it.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
2002 was a pretty good time to be buying unused English guns. I owned a few. That said, the guns I see these days from England, at that pricing, seem “tired”.

Best,
Ted
A nice Webley 700 for 3K, hard to beat it:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...gauge-28-quot-bbls-.cfm?gun_id=101718767

A friend picked up a very high condition Alex Martin sidelock at Holts two years ago, delivered in hand for 4300$. The gun has 80% CC , great barrels and is cased. You have to look around but good deals exist.
Mine was a tough sell, you may remember it here a few years back. A 1964 NIB 700, straight stock, 30". Took about 3 years to get my $3K and that was NIB.

Guy who bought it promptly had the stock cut and chokes opened. In fact it was delivered to the smith.
Originally Posted by SKB
A nice Webley 700 for 3K, hard to beat it:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...gauge-28-quot-bbls-.cfm?gun_id=101718767

A friend picked up a very high condition Alex Martin sidelock at Holts two years ago, delivered in hand for 4300$. The gun has 80% CC , great barrels and is cased. You have to look around but good deals exist.

I think I said guys of average means would be better served with newer guns, Steve.

Like a 700. Didn’t say 700, but, you get the point.

Best,
Ted
Originally Posted by ed good
seems like no one wants to address the scale issue...


well. then there is the thing about the use of acid flux in the 1800's to solder shotgun barrels together...the acid keeps working long after the barrels are joined...eventually resulting in paper thin barrel walls between the ribs...

There really is no reason to address the scale issue Ed, because it is pretty much a non-issue. Scale begins to form as soon as red hot steel or iron comes in contact with the oxygen in the air. It is a form of oxidation that blacksmiths learned to control and remove when forge welding, long before they began making Damascus barrels. Over time, they discovered the best materials to use as fluxes to prevent scale when producing barrels, knives, swords, and other items. Some of these materials, like sodium tetraborate are still widely used today for forge welding. It is almost certain that a small amount of scale was trapped within the welds of Twist and Damascus, but it isn't enough to materially weaken the barrels. They were made with a built-in safety margin, and they were proof tested with high pressure loads. Like modern steel tubes that are proof tested, the defective ones don't usually make it out the door. Even after 100 years or more, Damascus barrels that are given proper care do not self destruct and rust away like a cancer is eating them from within. But even the best Kilby or Whitworth or Krupp fluid steel barrels will become pitted and dangerous if they are neglected and permitted to rust and corrode. There are literally millions of surviving Damascus guns that prove guys like Randy Wakeman wrong every day.

Same goes for the thing about acid flux being used to tin and solder barrels together. The flux is displaced by the molten solder, and none remains under the solder. As long as the corrosive residue is neutralized and flushed away after soldering, then there is nothing left in between those barrels to eat them away. And if that corrosive flux residue had been left in between our barrels and ribs, it sure wouldn't take over 100 years to eat holes in the tubes. The damage would have happened fairly soon after they were built.

What it boils down to is this... somewhere out there tonight... on some classic or muscle car forum, there is a guy saying he will never drive a 1963 Corvette split window coupe because it does not have 3 point seat belts and air bags. And there is another guy who says he would never drive a 1934 Deusenberg because it does not have dual circuit brake master cylinders, crush zones and engineered door and roof pillars to protect him in a crash. Most of us here grew up without ever wearing a bicycle helmet, riding in a protective infant car seat, or having pills in child-proof bottles and covers on receptacles. We played with fireworks and BB guns that could put your damn eye out. Somehow we survived. And I'll continue to live dangerously... shooting guns that have survived over 100 years without any problems. Besides, there are worse things than blowing up a gun:

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
I think I said a buyer should focus on condition, you get the point Ted.
Steve
Re new guns vs old: While some guys rave about the CSMC Model 21's they've bought, I've read comments from a couple guys--one of whom I know as an experienced shotgunner who isn't inclined to whine about minor problems--that theirs have been money pits.

And I'm pretty sure I commented here about my attempts to buy one of the Savage Fox A Grades (basically an RBL dressed up a bit to look like a Fox). Also a CSMC product. I eventually gave up. I now own a REAL Fox A Grade 16ga with brand new barrels (left over when Savage stopped making them.) Restocked, etc. That's a lot of new stuff on an old gun, but the action is still original Fox and I love it.
Glad it wasn’t your first gun, Larry. Otherwise you might be golfing.


Best,
Ted
Ted by now everyone knows SKB is a liberal internet pOser....
Better head back to the safety of your recliner frAnk, maybe grab a blanket along the way. At your advanced age I would not want you to catch a bug, it could be fatal. The pups and I posing last year with some wild SD roosters and my H&H.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Otherwise you might be golfing.

Beats work.


___________________________
I finally figured out why I look so bad in pictures. It’s my face. Ted S.
Originally Posted by SKB
Better head back to the safety of your recliner frAnk, maybe grab a blanket along the way. At your advanced age I would not want you to catch a bug, it could be fatal. The pups and I posing last year with some wild SD roosters and my H&H.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I know I'd sure like to have that old truck just sitting there rotting away in that field, Now you talking bout a money pit, that's it.
That one is not mine, though I do have a 37 Chevy pick up that is a money pit.
I swaer I saw that same truck in a back issue of SC- where in SD-looks like a great day with dawgs and "ditch parrots" RWTF
LARRY BROWN,

It is good to see that you are still alive, well, and still posting here. Do you have another book "in the works" ?

I hope you have an enjoyable hunting season this fall. I'll be going to Draper, South Dakota to hunt pheasants in a few weeks.
Originally Posted by SKB
Ted, I disagree with your take on shooting old guns. If you learn to buy old guns in nice shape they are rarely money pits. Becoming an educated buyer is not for everyone though, it takes work and finding the right gun takes patience. I waited years before I found the gun for me.

I shoot almost nothing but vintage guns and I rarely need to work on them(never have touched either of my shotguns for repair). My hunting partner shoots a British SxS from the 1880's and has put tens of thousands of rounds through it without a hiccup. Find one that has been well maintained and fits you, feed it appropriate ammo and you will rarely be disappointed.

Your premise was old guns, Steve. Hedged your bet by saying “Seldom” on the money pit thing, which, is not the same as never. Then you posted a picture of a youthful 700.

Which, leads right back to where I suggested the guys who might not want to end up with a money pit might start out.

Best,
Ted

________________________________________________________________
A good bender might take your mind off how ugly Detroit is, but, when you wake up you will realize
nothing, including you, is pretty in Detroit.
Kat timph is from detroit
If it is a graded Parker made after 1900, Bell pretty much proved that those were safe. But all guns
are laws unto themselves.
MN. and Calif. insure that AL-AK are still safe bets for armed righteous believers.



"The price that good men pay for indifference to public affairs
is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
Gee Ted I was trying to avoid promoting my own wares on the main board as you know who will have a cow but here you go, a between the wars gun that has been shot very little, tons of condition and I have it up for 1,100$. Today I will sell it to any board member for a grand even. What more do you want? They are out there. Pretty sure this one has had a few hundred rounds through it at most. Just to assure Ted that I'm not trying pawn off off a money pit on someone, this one comes with 1 year mechanical guarantee that covers parts and labor. Happy yet?

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ractor.cfm?gun_id=100951694&cdn_bp=1

A nice clean provincial ble for 1750$, sure looks honest:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...yd-son-ltd-12-gauge.cfm?gun_id=101714740
Interesting I have a George Graham sxs looks pretty much like this ec green I have had mine for 25 years mine is 6lb12 oz with a 1 1/4 oz proof. Never a problem just strip and clean every so often
Originally Posted by SKB
Gee Ted I was trying to avoid promoting my own wares on the main board as you know who will have a cow but here you go, a between the wars gun that has been shot very little, tons of condition and I have it up for 1,100$. Today I will sell it to any board member for a grand even. What more do you want? They are out there. Pretty sure this one has had a few hundred rounds through it at most. Just to assure Ted that I'm not trying pawn off off a money pit on someone, this one comes with 1 year mechanical guarantee that covers parts and labor. Happy yet?

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ractor.cfm?gun_id=100951694&cdn_bp=1

A nice clean provincial ble for 1750$, sure looks honest:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...yd-son-ltd-12-gauge.cfm?gun_id=101714740



Why do you put the dollar sign after the number?
Hard to say really, maybe because I deal with foreign currencies often.
Everytime I see one of your ads or post with it written that way, it’s like I’m chewing on tinfoil. 🤷🏽‍♂️
Oh, that is just the start of my grammatical short comings......
The Webley is a newer, nicer, gun, wearing a level of proof and chamber length making it ready to be used with typical American loads. Choked a bit tight in one bore, but, I could make that work.

I know a few newbs coming up into the field, millennial guys that will shoot an A5 Stalker, but, low and behold, they want a double, just not one that they have to play games with ammunition to use. The beards and tattoos throw me, but, they are guys who are inheriting hunting camps or spots in them, and they will be the guys I see in the field, for the most part, from now on.

I owned guns like the E C Green. I appreciate them, but, no longer use one. The price you have on it, and the lack of it moving demonstrates that it is a piece that has fallen from favor. Different people have different ideas about that, but, it is hard to argue it hasn’t happened.

Good luck with the sale. I’ve lived in times when it would have sold in five minutes, but, that ain’t now.

Best,
Ted
Originally Posted by mc
Kat timph is from detroit

Key word there is “from”

Best,
Ted

_____________________________________________________________
An ugly place, with ugly folk and their ugly motorcycles.
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
I know a few newbs coming up into the field, millennial guys that will shoot an A5 Stalker, but, low and behold, they want a double, just not one that they have to play games with ammunition to use. The beards and tattoos throw me, but, they are guys who are inheriting hunting camps or spots in them, and they will be the guys I see in the field, for the most part, from now on.

I owned guns like the E C Green. I appreciate them, but, no longer use one. The price you have on it, and the lack of it moving demonstrates that it is a piece that has fallen from favor. Different people have different ideas about that, but, it is hard to argue it hasn’t happened.

The beard guys are probably much closer to my age than the average board member on here (I am even debatably a millennial). I don't know anyone else my age who is into doubles, old doubles, or even hunts really, but I like those things and expect others like myself will eventually grow to appreciate them as well provided there is reasonable access and exposure.

In addition to classic doubles, I have owned a few Citoris and a Silver Pigeon, and just got bored with them very quickly. No feel, and no soul. The case of my Leech SLE smells hauntingly of century old oil and tobacco and creates this fascinating link between the past and the present for me. I also enjoy learning or attempting to learn the provenance of these items that have lived through the entirety of the 20th century and into the 21st. I think that sort of thing appeals to many people intuitively, like, say, quirky British bicycles, vintage vehicles, or weird tea pots. There are some minor annoyances to owning old guns, but those are easily overcome once the interest is stoked.

What I also find is that everywhere I take an old double, people of all ages are pretty fascinated by it and want to know more about it so I think there is the potential for an expansion of the hobby, it is just a question of how to bridge that gap. Notably, my first gun ever was a 1921 LC Smith featherweight 12 in decent shape that I paid $300 for a pawn shop in 2012. I had pretty much no experience in guns or shooting at that point. I had a gunsmith glue the hairline cracks at the lock plates for $100 and I was in business and shooting for a total investment of $400. I later sold it for over $600 and now have "graduated" to British SLEs. In any event, vintage doubles are financially accessible to pretty much every budget in my opinion. Frankly, if you shoot a lot, the main expenditure is ammo, not the implement itself anyway, right?

I could write ten pages about why I think this and other hobbies are stagnating, but my analysis would likely be anecdotal and the effort misspent. The one thing that I can recommend is that anyone who laments the demise of the hobby make some effort to spread it beyond your natural social and demographic boundaries...might help, might not, but at least an attempt was made.
keith, just read your post here...


makes sense re the topic...and cleverly done...
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Glad it wasn’t your first gun, Larry. Otherwise you might be golfing.


Best,
Ted

My first gun was a .410 single shot, Stevens. Passed down to me by my older brother. Second one, and the first I bought with my own $, saved up from pumping gas and fixing tires: Savage 420 OU, made back in the 30's. Came out about the same time as the Marlin 90. A Savage 420 actually makes a Marlin 90 look and feel sleek. The 90 survived WWII; the 420 did not. From then on, Savage offered only imported OU's.

And my experience with the 420 might explain why I'm a sxs guy.

But getting back to new vs old guns: AyA 4/53 suffered a broken striker recently. Just discovered that my SKB (late Japanese version) is in need of a top lever spring. Meanwhile, I have a 100+ year old Parker 16 I've shot a lot this year, as well as a nearly that old Fox Sterlingworth 20ga. Both those guns acquired new wood somewhere along the line. But as far as function goes, they keep on ticking.
I've been shooting old SxSs from around 2004. At this time I own around 14 SxSs, 10 of them are Damascus barreled guns, and nitro loads are shot in all my guns. Pressure is pressure, whether it comes from BP or nitro loads. No problems and the only break downs are the occasional broken spring, usually the top lever. They're all Parkers, Remingtons, or Uncle Dan Lefevers. All except the C grade 1894 Remington were 1000$ guns, give or take a couple of hundred bucks. Most were lower grade hunting guns - well used but still in nice condition. None are money pits. Oh I've spent 3 to 4 hundred on getting the Damascus barrels redone. Sometimes just to see what the Laminate barrels looked like when new or what nice case colors looked like, but that was a personal choice, not something that was necessary to keep it shooting.

I run the shotgun venue at my club, maybe 50 shooters . We shoot three times a week. I put on a SxS Shoot once a year in the spring. Out of the maybe 10 serious SxS shooters we have at the club, I can't remember anyone having any gun problems. Most the guys shoot the old guns and all shoot nitro powders. Guess we're all lucky to have all our body parts and guns not breaking down every other week. JMHO
Originally Posted by LeFusil
Everytime I see one of your ads or post with it written that way, it’s like I’m chewing on tinfoil. 🤷🏽‍♂️


Don't do that, Dustin. It's in short supply these days because of the popularity of tinfoil hats.
At the moment, all the guns I own and shoot are damascus. I do have an 40's era AYA 4 boxlock heading my way, just to have something to shoot modern loads in at the trap range, but truly modern guns just leave me cold. I get so much joy out of shooting my 1880's Husky's and my 1898 Lefever, that the question of if they are safe to shoot somehow seems silly to me after all these years. If you buy smartly as SKB alluded to, and feed it the right ammo, it's not an issue. Imho, life is too short to spend time worrying about it.

My 30" Lefever 12 special order gun. Weighs 6.6lbs:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

My 16b Husky 36 after I had the barrels re-browned and after I re-worked the stock:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

My twist damascus Husky 16:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
I have fired over 6,000 nitro (smokeless) cartridges through my Joseph Lang completed March 6, 1866 and rebarreled in Damascus by James Woodward circa 1872. Obviously I have no hesitation shooting it with the 2 1/2 inch cartridges it is proofed for.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]2008-01-30 006 by Robert Holliday, on Flickr
Mark I really like your dog painting on the stock
Originally Posted by mc
Mark I really like your dog painting on the stock

I think it would look a lot better on a canvas, or even a coffee mug. But that's just me.

Reminds me of a girl I worked with some years ago who was nice looking and had very attractive legs. She showed up one day with a big honking parrot tattoo on her calf, and it did nothing to improve her looks. People talked, but nobody had the nerve to ask her why she defaced herself. But at least the dog picture on a gunstock can be sanded off and refinished. A parrot tattoo is not so easy to get rid of.
Is food safe to eat?
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