Some of us have had or know of guns we consider as unsafe to shoot...care to tell us about one?

From my experience they are generally owned by old Farmers. The guns are Belgian hammer guns that are Black Powder Proof; never, ever cleaned, loose on the action because they fire the heaviest loads they can find, the top lever held in place by an elastic band, invariably dented and only a combination of luck and the gods that protect old farmers have so far failed to blow them to pieces. I think that fits a number I have seen over the years. Lagopus.....

Any one that is pointed at you.


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Some of the guns sold by a guy in nh might qualify.and lonesome roads gets the prize for best answer

cum on guys...tell us about one...

here is the most recent one i have seen...a 12 gauge boxlock churchill that had been sleeved...barrel walls in front of chambers were only .060...way too thin for me...and no economical way to fix it...

I have a damascus 12 gauge gun with .080 in front of the chambers. I am comfortable shooting low pressure 1 ounce loads thru it. Minimum wall thickness everywhere else is .024 What works for me won't necessarily work for someone else. I also once owned a Beretta Vitoria 16 gauge made in 1949 that had original .017 wall thickness 7 inches from the muzzle. Never had a problem with factory ammo. Sold the gun because it didn't really fit me well and disclosed the thin walls to the new buyer.

12bore, shooting smokeless in a damascus gun is pushing it...doing so in such light barrels, is even more risky...

.017 seven inches down in a 16 is risky and could easily result in a bulge or an eruption if even a slight blockage occurs...

you were lucky shooting both guns...

other opinions?

Sounds like you don't have a lot of confidence in "old Farmers" sense about guns. You say you believe "old Farmers" never, ever cleaned old Belgian hammer guns. You believe they use the "heaviest loads they can find". You name "old Farmers" as the ones who use elastic bands to hold top levers in place. Why farmers, and old ones, in particular?

Yeah, here's mine. You're full of it. It didn't result in "an eruption", obviously. Why didn't it, ed, if it was unsafe?

well stan, this is about opinion...you may have different opinions...thats ok...but do try to behave in a gentlemanly fashion while participating in this thread on this fine forum...

In my 67 odd years of shotgunning, if the original question is about a certain make and model of shotgun, going way back in time, both happen to be of WRA mfg. first, the Model 1893 pumpgun- next the M11 semi-autoloader-- known in some areas as the "Widow maker"--Thomas Crossley Johnson did a masterful job on the M12 (and M1912)-- but he sure fubared WRA;s attempt to bring out a reliable semi-auto to compete with the Browning Auto-5. Just my 2 cents worth.. Now, as to the acerbic remarks made here about "old Farmers"--I can see 2 sides to that. It is true that non-landowners who don't wrest a living from the land, fighting Nature and the "middlemen", whether they are involved in dairy, beef, swine, poultry or cash cropping--do not seem to understand the "farm way"-- they see equipment stored outdoors, gravelled 2 track roads, barns with roofing torn loose from severe weather, and wonder-- what they fail to grasp is the fact that farming ain't a 9 to 5 5 day a week career-- even hobby farms take long hours of work to pay off-the other side is that Farmers know better than any other group I am aware of how to be good neighbors- in order to survive, that is a flat out fact of life.Farmers are the best folks the Good Lord put on the face of the earth, and I am lucky to have so many of them as trusted friends. RWTF

Okay ed, in a gentlemanly fashion, answer the question ................

stan, recently, an avid shooter i know of had a scary experience...seems like he occasionally shot skeet with a 12 gauge parker hammer gun with damascus barrels, using light smokeless loads...been doing so for quite awhile...well this summer, he was shooting as usual, when one of the barrels erupted, with a few inches of barrel being blown out...fortunately, no one was hurt...one never knows when one of these old guns is going to let go...if one must shoot guns with twist steel barrels, then do so only occasionally...and then only use shells loaded with powder the gun was designed for...ie: black powder...

and as for shooting .017 or similar thin barrel walls...a barrel blockage of any kind or a severe barrel dent will cause pressures to increase rapidly...in that situation, the thinner the barrel walls, the more likely there will be a bulge or eruption...i would think...

minimum barrel wall thickness of .030 is my standard for safety...others say .025 is ok...shooting anything below .025 is to risky for me...

foxie,your post above is your best in a long time...

That reply is so full of assumptions I won't even begin to address them. And, it didn't even begin to answer the question I asked.

how bout dis, with regard to shotgun barrels and aircraft engines: "failure is not an acceptable option"...

What we got heah, is…




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My old mzl conversion to 16ga cartridge using a mzl set of barrels soldered to a set of cut off 12ga barresl . I bought it in 1965 and proceeded to put hundreds of round of 16ga trap loads and 16ga magnum 5's for pheasants and ducks until I went in the service. Never knew Damascus was dangerous or there were such things a short chambers.

Damascus guns are more dangerous than vintage fluid steel ones? No more so if in good condition, still in proof, and you shoot loads they were proved for.



A couple of these are ML's but the others all shoot low pressure smokeless. Last year's photo so some have moved on, others added.

Winner winner, chicken dinner!

"one never knows when one of these old guns is going to let go...if one must shoot guns with twist steel barrels, then do so only occasionally...and then only use shells loaded with powder the gun was designed for...ie: black powder..."

Regulars here ed understand that you repeat things over and over, "facts" that you must know to be false, simply to draw attention to yourself by prolonging the same threads you initiate...over and over.
And to get a rise from those of us who know what you say is BS.

The problem is that visitors to the site may not know better.
So I'll take the bait and provide you some gratification and entertainment with this...for like the 15th time

Remington Arms 1893 "Guaranteed For Nitro Powder"



Parker Bros. 1893 Catalog
“Our guns are bored on the latest improved system for shooting Nitros, or Smokeless Powder, and all our guns are tested with some one of the most approved makes, and a tag accompanies each gun, giving the results of such a (pattern) test.”


Listing in the 1902 Sears catalog "Bored For Nitro or Black Powder"

gee guys, i know its hard to focus, but please do try to stay on topic...and remember this is about opinion...

any other specific examples of guns you consider as unsafe?

Stanton Hills, maybe it's just British farmers but that is from long experience. I'm sure some U.K. members may agree. The attitude seems to be one of 'well it hasn't blown up so far'. I've seen some real shockers in use. Rusty things propped up in cow shed windows, tucked round the back of tractor seats and even bits of welded patches on the barrels covering holes. Maybe it will be less so as a new generation takes over and guns here being as cheap as they are at the moment. Lagopus.....

lag, re your comment about welded patches on barrels...have seen more than one old, well used twist steel barrelled gun with similar repairs, except, pin holes were filled with brass looking material and then draw filed to blend in...

it is my understanding that because black powder pressure is relatively low, pin holes will develop in an old worn out twist barrel, before it will erupt...your view, if any...

Marlin has advised owners of their old hammer pump guns that they are unsafe to shoot. I don't recall exactly why, but it seems like there was something about firing out of battery.

Thanks for the reply, lagopus. Having farmed, and lived in a highly agricultural region, all of my life here I couldn't make a case that farmers have any corner on carelessness or foolhardiness concerning guns. It seems to be fairly and equally distributed throughout our society. Fools are where you find them, and carelessness seemingly abounds in every station.

Best, Stanton Hillis

Got to agree ,here in UK `farmers gun` is a well recognised term which immediately paints a mental picture that you describe....seen many such used over the years,most of which were proudly described as `good killers` or `hard hitters` . To the credit of their makers ,i`ve never heard of one that `let go`!!! In fact I`ve not seen any gun that burst or badly bulged other than due to an obstructed bore in my 50 yrs afield.

Seems to me I once read an article by a Brit- denegrating American boxlock guns- in particular he remarked that Parkers were stout guns, without grace or balance, and suitable for yeomen and farmers usage-- RWTF.

Ok, before I start. I am from a long line of farmers, grew up on the farm and have and still do dabble in it as an adult. I'll just say this. A lot of well abused crappy guns show up on the auctions when farmer's wives sell out the household! Now maybe the kids have kept the good stuff, but.

Case in point. We kept a Stevens Favorite inside the pump house along with a box of shells. It was there for convenient problem solving. Never wiped down, cleaned, lubed etc. It was a tool, nothing more. It is a shame as it was a relatively rare version as far as Stevens Favorites go. Probably worth a couple hundred now if it had received average care.

Chief

So there is no such thing as nitro proved Damascus barrels?

Ed, I remember going to fox drives when all sorts of agricultural folks would turn up and I've seen the odd puff of smoke come out of the side of the barrels. I guess a lot of these old guns have now gone to rest. It used to be common practice at the big estate houses that the boss would use the 'Purdey' until it was getting past its best and a new one would be bought. The old gun would then go to the Gamekeeper and well used until he received the later one passed down and then it would go to the Gardener for use against pests. Stored in the potting shed until the woodworm and rust saw it off. I think the worst example I ever saw; which I wish I had photographed, was a Boss hammer ejector. I had been re-stocked with a piece of timber normally seen holding fence wire in place. The barrels pitted inside and out and dented. The rust made it difficult to see any of the engraving and details. I almost wept! There was nothing that was remotely salvageable. A Boss hammer ejector that I doubt anyone on this forum would have given 10 dollars for and only then as a curiosity. Lagopus.....

Wall thickness...
(R) 3” from breech .105, 9” from breech .58, 13” from breech .43, 6” from muzzle .37
(L) 3” from breech .105, 9” from breech .57, 13” from breech .44, 6” from muzzle .36

I know it has been mentioned before on this forum that many of the American manufacturers at the turn of the 2oth century clearly stated that their damascus guns were just as safe with the new nitro powders as were the fluid steel built ones. Anything we do in life usually involves some sort of risk on a daily basis, from the food we eat, to the cars we drive, etc., etc. I will continue to shoot my damascus guns guns with low pressure smokeless loads because I feel they are safe for me and because I have done the research on my guns and deem them to be so. Your mileage may vary!

nice to know about guns you consider as safe to shoot...but the subject of this thread is about specific guns you consider to be unsafe to shoot...

I would disagree. This thread is about "unsafe" guns...whatever that means to different people. What one person considers safe another might not.

It's been almost 20 years so the details are a little fuzzy, but there was a period SASS Cowboy shooting where Marlin hammered pumps were allowed. There was a specific model when if it wasn't assembled correctly and/or checked on a frequent basis one of the safety features could fail which IIRC could cause the gun to fire out of battery causing the bolt to come out the back of the gun, hitting the shooter. This caused SASS to ban all pump shotguns except the Winchester 1897 in either 12 or 16 gauge and any replicas in those two calibers. The Marlins weren't very common and I only remember two couples who used them versus the hundreds of people who used the Winchester 1897.

Marlin, which had no control over these old guns and what ammo might be used, correctly covered themselves legally by saying the guns should no longer be used. The Winchesters did not have this design issue and apparently the Winchester company that made the 1897 pump shoguns had changed hand so many times that they could not be held liable even if there was an accident with a 1897 pump.

Calm down Stanley Ed didn't say anything bad about your ground swatting covey shooting grandpappy.

Luck has nothing to do with it. Being knowledeable of what you have is the important thing. It has been shown thru pressue testing that the pressure at 10" or less from the muzzle of most low pressure loads is 2000 p.s.i. or less. Definately no danger of of an eruption or even a bulge.