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Posted By: Nudge "Best on the planet?" - 09/08/21 06:12 PM
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...intage-firearms-inc.cfm?gun_id=101695038

Does it unnerve me that one dealer seems to have almost every impossible to find variation of vintage American double? Somewhat...yeah. Even Lebron doesn't dominate his peers that well. But as always I judge the gun, and trust my eyes, more than anything.

As such, the headline grabbed me on this gun. And while the price is certainly dear, the pics are amazing...and frankly might even be in the ballpark...until the last image. Importantly, note this dealer quote:

"THIS DE IS FACTORY ORIGINAL IN EVERY WAY".

Now look carefully at the underside of the barrels in the last pic, just in front of the forearm hanger.

Um...

NDG
Posted By: dblgnfix Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/08/21 07:50 PM
It is a beautiful gun but another thing I noticed were the butt plate screws. filed and polished off.
However I don't doubt that there isn't another one around as good.
Posted By: 67galaxie Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/08/21 08:19 PM
and the blued screws
Posted By: 67galaxie Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/08/21 08:20 PM
It's damn gorgeous though
Posted By: builder Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/08/21 10:06 PM
It is damn gorgeous! After looking at the pics I thought 15K. Pretty close.

I have done business with Jay and he is a real stand up guy. I would happily do business with him again.

It is not my gun nor do I know who owns it.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/08/21 10:17 PM
I've got a 32" A grade A H Fox right now that I bought from Jay many, many years ago ......... before he named his gun business. The price was very fair and it was a good transaction.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: Nudge Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/08/21 11:25 PM
The hole behind the forarm hanger is a weeping hole. It's necessary when refinishing barrels so the rib cures correctly.

I cant speak to the man's reputation. But I also can't rectify "factory original in every way"...with that hole.

NDG
Posted By: Researcher Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/08/21 11:40 PM
Back in mid-July we discussed that listing on the AHFCA site, where I mentioned that that gun was listed as refinished in the in the June 2003 Bonhams auction catalog.

This one from Josh looks much more "right" --

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ed-condition-.cfm?gun_id=101727952#lg-10
Posted By: LeFusil Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/08/21 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by Nudge
The hole behind the forarm hanger is a weeping hole. It's necessary when refinishing barrels so the rib cures correctly.

I cant speak to the man's reputation. But I also can't rectify "factory original in every way"...with that hole.

NDG

A weep hole is most definitely not an indicator of a refinish job. MANY, especially American made doubles, came from the factory with said weep holes already drilled in them.

With that said, I don’t think I agree with Jay about the gun being 100% original to include the finishes. My spidey sense is telling me that this beautiful, high grade, very rare, American made double has seen some work. The gun just does not carry the patina it should have, even if it spent its life in a climate controlled storage area. The finishes, specifically the barrels and the furniture just look a little too new in my opinion (not that that means a thing btw!).

It’s a gorgeous gun, regardless.
Posted By: ed good Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/09/21 12:34 AM
that gun transends its utilitarian value as a firearm...it belongs in a museum of american art...
Posted By: Nudge Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/09/21 12:41 AM
If true...."MANY" from the factory with weep holes...that is news to me.

Are you talking about Crescent quality guns? Maybe I've been living in Lefever land too long, so Im only used to guns made properly. Sneider certainly didn't either, nor Syracuse, to my kmowledge.

I'm quite curious...please tell WHICH makers of FINE American doubles sent guns out the door with weep holes in the rib...as ORIGINALLY constructed?

Again, not doubles sold in hardware stores meant to be laid in the dirt while one weeded the garden. I mean fine guns.

It's my understanding -- and PLEASE correct me -- that the very reason you need this hole is because you are refinishing a barrel set which is already struck. There would be no need for this when the barrels were originally made, as they'd have been rough finished BEFORE they were struck. So why would they ever need a weep hole when originally made?

If you know better, please explain. Im not a gunsmith...i just collect them.

NDG
Posted By: ed good Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/09/21 12:49 AM
lc smith...
Posted By: Hammergun Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/09/21 12:51 AM
Beautiful gun. Patina on the case colors looks right but that trigger guard has been re-blued.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/09/21 02:31 AM
Also notice some of the finish on the forearm has run over onto the forend iron. I agree, a beautiful gun but most metal and all the wood is refinished. And as mentioned earlier, the screws aren’t right.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/09/21 12:02 PM
I do love that checkering pattern. That would be a nice one to replicate on a custom stocked S X S.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/09/21 01:11 PM
L.C. Smiths are found with weep holes, but most (unmodified) barrels do not have them

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

A No. 3 that has the "barrel loop support reinforcing wedge"
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/09/21 01:41 PM
Never saw another higher grade Remington with blue screws. I have owned EE and DE Remingtons and the screws are color case hardened. I have many pictures of the Remingtons in high grade, and none of those pictures show blued screws.

Dave's notation of the gun in Bonham's auction seems to tell the truth.
Posted By: LeFusil Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/09/21 02:05 PM
Model 21’s will have plugged weep holes from the factory. Many LC’s have weep holes from the factory, I’ve owned 3, original field grades that did. I’ve also owned Ithaca NID’s that were drilled from the factory. Some Lefevers that were assembled by Ithaca are also found to have weep holes.
I’ve seen factory original LC’s with weep holes in different areas. Usually found right after the loop, some later LC’s might have had the weep hole in the reinforcing rib, and were plugged with a small screw. I have only seen guns with fluid steel barrels with these weep holes, I just haven’t had my hands on enough Damascus examples from each maker to have an opinion regarding those barrels.

I can only assume that the reason for the weep holes was that in a mass production process as most American guns were manufactured…the solder joints weren’t always 100% flawless, so when the barrels got boiled/steamed during whatever blacking process that company used, moisture was present between the ribs and these sets were drilled and oiled during the QC process. This would sort of explain why some are and some aren’t found with the weep holes.


Btw…..there are a few informative post from this forum over the years discussing weep holes found on various types and makes of guns, whether they are factory original or not, etc.
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/09/21 02:18 PM
I view the barrels as having ejectors, hence a 3E-Drewbie.. RWTF
Posted By: Tom Findrick Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/09/21 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
I've got a 32" A grade A H Fox right now that I bought from Jay many, many years ago ......... before he named his gun business. The price was very fair and it was a good transaction.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Beautiful gun.
Posted By: canvasback Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/09/21 07:50 PM
Lovely gun but I would have preferred to buy the 16 ga EE two barrel set at auction last year for $10K hammer price and oversee the restoration with CJO than buy a D grade that someone else refinished incorrectly.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/10/21 10:29 AM
Stanford we ain't talking about no Fox...are you ever going to get over yourself ?
Posted By: ed good Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/10/21 07:33 PM
jOe, jes cause dis thread is about ah particularly wonderful remington made work of art, dont mean hit cant also be bout stan an his foxie fox...you should no dat by now...
Posted By: Researcher Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/10/21 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by canvasback
Lovely gun but I would have preferred to buy the 16 ga EE two barrel set at auction last year for $10K hammer price and oversee the restoration with CJO than buy a D grade that someone else refinished incorrectly.

Was that 112990 that we discussed on this site back in October 2015? That is the only EE-Grade 16-gauge with two sets of barrels that I have recorded. Half-pistol grip, heel & toe plates and the original barrels 30-inch with the serial number correctly on the right barrel flat. The extra barrels 28-inch with the serial number on the left barrel flat, a DD3 Remington repair code - D = September, D = 1935 - with no second forearm. If that DD3 is legit, that must be the last set of Damascus barrels ever worked on at Ilion.
Posted By: canvasback Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/11/21 12:37 AM
Researcher, yes it was. My contact picked it up from the owner for about $5K and quite quickly consigned it to auction. No work was done on it prior to the auction. I had just decided I wanted to try to buy it and when I got in touch with my contact he laughed and said “I just decided the same thing last month”

Oh well. I snoozed so I loosed. Haha.
Posted By: Researcher Re: "Best on the planet?" - 09/11/21 03:06 PM
FWIW The first high grade 16-gauge I've recorded is 110475 an EEO-Grade with full pistol grip, 28-inch barrels and a Silvers pad which sold in the June 2003 Bonhams Auction. Then three E quality guns in the 112xxx range.
EEO-Grade 112429 with full pistol grip and 30-inch barrels sold by Tommy Guns on Guns International in 2018. EE-Grade 112829 with 28-inch Peiper P. barrels, half-pistol grip and heel & toe plates --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

sold in the last Julia's Auction, March 2018, for $34,500.

EE-Grade 112990 with 30-inch Peiper P. barrels, half-pistol grip and heel & toe plates --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The extra 28-inch barrels are Oxford 4. S. J.

Hopefully in the future when we see it restored it won't have blued screws!!
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