Hello guys, saw your forum and I thought you would be able to help me out.

I purchased a 14ga Damascus barrel double barrel shotgun and I want to know what would be a safe load or a start load for it.

I have had it checked by a gunsmith, he said that as long as I use blackpowder I will have no problems, this is a percussion muzzleloader, on the rib it is marked "Fine Twist".

I took off the barrels and the following proof marks are present:

The E over LG in an oval - star is solid.

178 - Pretty sure this means 17.8mm, which is 0.700in, which is what the muzzle measures, so a 14ga?

The "Perron" - on the outside of one of the chambers, visible while in the stock.

Reverse "B" "L" - made after 1852?

Crown over V - on one chamber

Crown over G - on one chamber

Crown over GI - on one chamber

Crown over X - on the breech block on both sides

"JM" - stamped on one barrel, covered by the stock, a makers mark I believe but cannot find anything to line up this mark.

Trying to figure out who made it and when and what load is appropriate.

I found an article on square loads, which says that 14ga is 3 dram with 1oz of shot or 3 1/4 dram with 1 1/4oz of shot.

Do these loads sound reasonable or should I be backing off to 28ga or 20ga type loads?

Does anyone know what type of pressure these BP charges may give?

Thanks

Hopefully the picture links work.

https://flic.kr/p/2kTyXv8

https://flic.kr/p/2kTrXnZ

https://flic.kr/p/2kTyXhH

https://flic.kr/p/2kTuSW7

https://flic.kr/p/2kTuoBD

https://flic.kr/p/2kTtyTd

https://flic.kr/p/2kTuon5

https://flic.kr/p/2kTtyLV

https://flic.kr/p/2kTtyGG

https://flic.kr/p/2kTuo9z

https://flic.kr/p/2kTyWkn

https://flic.kr/p/2kTrWc2

start with one ounce of shot and 70 grains of 2f black...tie gun to tire...attach lanyard to trigger...cap...stand around corner of barn...pull landyard...

after it goes bang,,,inspect gun for damage...repeat three more times, with same load...fire twice in both barrels...

if gun is still undamaged, it may be ok to fire in hand,,,or not...

There are several 'JM's here
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a%20a%20artisans%20identifies%20gb.htm#M

Pete Mikalajunas' maker's mark list had 'JM' as Joseph Monisse. I have no infro.

But the mark is likely that of the Stub Twist barrel makers Joseph et Jacques Moray of Nessonvaux. "Fine Twist" clearly indicates the gun was for the English speaking market.

Inspector's marks were spangled after 1877 so the gun dates before then

14 bore is .693". 13 bore is .710"

This is the earliest Belgian Proof House document I've found - in English!
Monthly Consular and Trade Reports, “Report by Consul Robertson on the Manufacture of Fire-Arms in the District of Verviers and Liege – (1853) Rules of the Proof House, Gun-Proof Establishment at Liege, Belgium”, 1885
https://books.google.com/books?id=7EhJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA142&lpg

A standard c. 1880 "Light" 12b English load was 2 3/4 Dram Curtis & Harvey No. 5 Black Powder with 1 oz. shot

Condition of your gun looks good from what I can see.
ML is addictive. I was shooting this one today. A 10 bore by Bales of Ipswich.

Square loads are very convenient. One dipper for both powder and shot. A 3/4 oz load will be a little more gentle on the wrist of your antique stock than a 1 oz, so there's that. For clays, I shoot 1 oz in my 10.

Any idea what a 3/4oz square load, so 2 dram (55gr) of FFg and 3/4oz of shot.

I was wondering about the stock, they do dry out over time and I completely agree on using a lighter load to mitigate recoil and any damage.

ed, I did have it inspected, the gunsmith who looked it over uses a Greener double to shoot turkeys every year, had no problem with shooting damascus as long as BP was used and within a reasonable load, not using massive loads and not shooting smokeless.

Drew, that is the correct text for the JM, thanks.

So based on what you see here this gun was made after 1853 "Perron" and before 1877, which is a nice way to narrow it down.

17.8mm equates to 0.700in, which is exactly what the bore measures, so probably not honed at all.

This gun would then be a 7 thou over bored 14ga.

I do have wads on order, there will be a lot more inspection first but based on what my local smith said I should be able to shoot light loads without concern, I doubt I will ever shoot heavy loads in it.

I just use an adjustable dipper. Weigh a dipper full of pellets to check that it's 3/4 oz, then tape it so the charge doesn't inadvertently change with use. Same volume of FFG and I don't worry about the powder weight or the drams.

Technically, the above use of the term "square load" is incorrect. As long as we all understand what JBL means by it, when he's referring to equal volumes of shot and powder, we're safe and sound. But, used properly, the term square load references the amount of shot that is necessary in any bore size to provide a shot column height equal to the bore's inside diameter. i.e., a .729" bore would require a shot column of .729" height to be considered a square load. The use of the same volume of propellant behind it doesn't make it a square load, as I have always understood the term.

I agree that equal volumes of FFg and shot (EVSP) will likely work well for you in that 14. For more detailed information on m/l loads get ahold of V M Starr's writings on it. But, EVSP has always worked well enough for me that I have never found the need to load otherwise, for birds or clays. But, if you're really into tuning patterns with a m/l shotgun that is unchoked (CYL) remember this old axiom: Less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead. Lowering the ratio of black to shot will usually slightly tighten the patterns, at a given range. Consequently, increasing the amount of black, in relation to the amount of shot, will usually open patterns.

Here's a great read for "new to m/l shotguns enthusiasts":

http://traditionalmuzzleloader.com/index.php/loading-the-smoothbore-gun

Best wishes ........

Thanks for the correction, Stan. I did misuse the term.

Thanks Stan, ya "Square" would refer to a load of shot equal to the bore diameter, gives less stringing, hence why a 410 3in 3/4oz load looks fine on paper but a 28ga 3/4oz load does better on game as that load fits the bore better.
I was using that link as a guide and they are referencing 1 and 1 1/8oz loads in the 14ga, but I was worried about that being too much for a 150 year old shotgun.

The 3/4oz load is about 330gr, I will see what Lee dipper works for that and then probably use that in pre-measured tubes for powder and shot for loads, that is what I do with powder for hunting with the Kentucky.

That is exactly the link I was working off of :), that article refers to modern ML shotguns though, which is why I am here, just wanting to make sure I do not do anything stupid and blow something up needlessly.

You guys are awesome.

I do not suspect this will surpass my favourite double gun but I hope to shoot it and hunt with it. My favourite double is a Western Arms "Long Range" 16ga, shot a number of grouse with it and a turkey a few years back, loves paper hull #5 loads and the smell of those paper hulls after shooting is amazing.

There we go, 3.4cc dipper gives me 320-340gr of # 7 1/2 shot depending on the scoop, on the Lee scale that works out to 50gr of FFg.

That's a fairly light load. I use about 68-72 grains FFg and about 3/4 ounce shot (ideally 8.5) for targets, and 1 ounce for upland game (usually 7.5 or 6's) in my 14 gauge. I use the same in my 15, 13, and 19 gauge muzzleloaders. Have lots of fun with it.

Ya, I know it is really light but a Belgian damascus that I cannot really trace the maker I want to keep it light.