I am possibly heading to North Dakota late October for a pheasant hunt. A friend that I would be heading out with has been out many times and has four English Setters that we would be hunting over. He has told me how tough these birds are and he looked at me like I was crazy when I told him that I would be taking my Citori VI 20 gauge. He said that they were shooting 1 3/4 oz. 12 gauge loads of #5 shot. He told me that I would be pissing in the wind with 1 oz. of #5 shot. I politely told him that I would be heading out for the experience and not interested in taking shots beyond 40-45 yards. Am I being unrealistic? Everything else that I own is an American sxs that is 100 years old and will not be shot with a payload of over 1 oz. of RST ammo, that I cannot get anyway. I have settled on the Fiocchi 1 oz. #5 Golden Pheasant based on some reviews that I have seen. I would not be opposed to 1 1/4 oz., 3" 20 ga. Golden Pheasant loads but, would prefer the lighter recoil shell unless I hear some real world data between the two. Thanks in advance to anyone that replies.

David

Better take 00 buck and bear spray sound like tough critters

I agree with your friend; big country pheasants are tough birds, a real prize, and easily lost in the thick stuff if not dead in the air.
But over good pointing dogs and by picking your shots, you'll do fine with the 1 oz. 5s. I'd go with IC/Full.

I’d borrow a 12 gauge, having had to finish off ( at 45 yards, #4 shot ) wounded pheasants that weren’t anchored by my companions who were using 20 gauge, #6 shot.

Since you will have plenty of dog-power, limiting your shots to flushing roosters would work with your 20. Don’t shoot at any pheasant that has reached “escape velocity”, locked wings, and started sailing away. Shoot them while they’re clawing for altitude.

I’d still rather have 12.
I wouldn’t bother with the 3” 20s.


Have fun; pheasants are a blast.

I agree with Drew’s choke advice.

You'll be more than fine, it will be early on in the season. Lots of young birds. Inside 40 yds. which if the dogs are worth feeding you should be. I'd pick 7.5/6 in a mod choke personally as 5's usually do not pattern great in a 20, your experience may vary. Shot a couple truckloads of UMW phez with a twenty over many years.
Enjoy!

Chief

watt findrick said...

why wound birds unnecessarily...

David,
I've "stoned" my share of N.D. pheasants with 1oz. # 5 RST with my 12 ga. SxS. Hunting with pointers and shooting mostly flushing birds at 40 yards or less with success.
Karl

Ed, Ed, Ed! It's basic ballistics. The only difference in any Ga. shot guns's "lethality" is pattern density at distance. a #6 out of a 12 hits no harder than a #6 out of a .410. If the pattern density is sufficient then any Ga. shotgun is sufficiently lethal for game. If the OP keeps his shots within 40 yds. with his 20 Ga. shooting #5 or #6 shot his chance of needlessly wounding birds is no better or worse than his ability to hit them.
Chief

The 3" GP #5 would be my choice in a 20 gauge Citori. I shoot that load in a 687L that weighs 6 pounds and a quarter and have no recoil problems.

It patterns fine, and anchors birds. You give up nothing to a 12 gauge and the gun carries MUCH easier.

Nice Karl! October's just ahead!

Thank you to all that have replied so far! I plan on patterning the #5 shells; to experiment with choke combos out of the citori. All shots will be held to 40-45 yards or less, hinging upon the patterning results.

Good idea to pattern the 1 Oz 5’s before you use them, #5 shot is kind of notorious for patterning like crap out of a 20 bore.

4 E-setters and he thinks you’ll be pissin in the wind? Sounds like he’s got some E-setters that act more like E-springers. That doesn’t sound very enjoyable if your a E-setter kind of guy (I’m a e-setter guy).

one ounce loads out of a six pound 20 bore kick like hell...and wound birds...

one and an eighth ounce loads out of a seven pound 12 bore kick less...and kill birds quicker...

Oh shut up you buffoon. I’ve CLEANLY killed hundreds of wild chukar, sharptails, huns & quail, blue & ruffed grouse…. and yes, even pheasants using 1 Oz of 6’s from numerous light 20 bore guns. If you can’t handle that recoil it’s probably time to hang it up. Most of my 20 bores are sub 6 lbs too.

Ed, you’re such a dingbat. The consummate gum flapper. Wish you’d just make like a tree and go.

Shockingly, 6 pounds is 96 ounces..

Ed needs to stick with subjects he knows something about, like acetylene torches.

oh well, maybe cock birds aint as tuff as they used to be...

an maybe bellasm will providw us with a report of how many birds he shot..an how many he rang their necks to finally kill erm...

or maybe he will seek expert advise elsewhere, an decide to "use enough gun"...

expert advise elsewhere:

https://projectupland.com/pheasant-hunting/how-to-choose-a-shotgun-for-pheasant-hunting-2/

and this too...

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2019/6/26/top-5-upland-loads

Fellas, even Herr Flammenwerfur auf Vermont-- any truth to the rumor that Fiocchi shells are known for having hard primers? Local dealer has 2 boxes of 12 ga. Fiocchi 1 ounce No. 8 target loads at $8.99/box- price sounds good in today's market, but just wonderin?? RWTF

When I was shooting a 20ga Browniing Lightning IC/IM the Fiocchi 2 3/4" 5's was my favorite and was deadly on wild MT and SD pheasants over our pointers. After going 12ga(it was lighter) I shot B&P High Pheasant 1oz 6's with no loss of effectiveness. Good dogs are more important that the load you shoot, the better the dog the easier shots you will have.

Wild Northeastern MT Birds, lightweight 12, 1oz 6's, super dog

cept wise ole cock birds used to run like hell at the sound of ah dawgs bell...they new watt came next...bang, bang!

they usually flushed out at about 50 yards, just out uv range... and one often heard a cackle, cackle sort of laughter, as they glided over to the next corn field, which was usually on the other side of a pond or a bog...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerbosma/14052632976

It’s been several decades (3) since I hunted wild pheasants. The group I had the pleasure to tag along with used 16 and 20 ga. Guns. I was the only guy out of 5 with a 12, so naturally I felt over gunned.

I used 1 1/8oz of 7.5 shot backed up with 1 1/2oz of 6s. We hunted over a couple pointers, and most birds were taken within 30-40 yards. I know One of the other guys was using 7.5 shot out of his 16. I believe all the other hunters were using 6s but it’s been to long to be 100-percent certain. However, I am pretty sure 6s were the choice of payload for this group.

The birds seemed to be everywhere and no matter what you were shooting, Roosters fell just as dead with the 20s and 16s as they did with my 12.

I remember being ribbed on using a 12 and hopefully I don’t run out of ammo as no one can loan me any shells. I took it as good humor and started to panic as I missed the first couple birds and the poking and ribbing continued until I got into my swing on getting on the gun.

Four setters, hmm. I have a friend with setters and he tends to go with a 12 gauge with a big load of 4's. I call them his "setter loads." He needs to break down the birds to up his chances of finding them. My point is that setters are not known as excellent game recovery dogs, and some owners will ramp up their loads based on this, although they either purposely fail to admit it, or are clueless to what a good recovery dog can do. Last year in South Dakota, and not on managed lands I used my 16 gauge double with good quality loads, in my case B&P 1 1/16 oz. 5's. My drahthaar recovered all 17 birds we put down. My partner had a 12, but he's not a good shot, and fringes most what he hits. I killed most of the birds. Just my observations over time.

Dave

Exactly my observation with #5s & Drahts. We hunt in the thickest of the thick in Kansas. I typically don a 12 bore but with 2 lads in tow I have started wielding a 20(3") bore drilling w/ short tubes. Typically I shoot 1 oz of #5 Diamond Shot Kents but if it is really thick I keep a few 3" 1 1/4 oz in my kit. I have found that I can aide the Boys Ellenburg with the shorter tubes than longer cartridges.

I have always had pattern issues w/ fixed choke Citoris & large shot. Smaller shot performs well. Also, I have noted more feather draw with the Fiocchi Nickel plated shot.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

None. I have no idea how shit like that starts.

Your concerns are unwarranted.
Your instincts are fine.
I run setters
The only accommodations I make are purely for my own comfort, and that would be, if a bird is flying out over a swale I don’t shoot it.

I stay away from 4’s in lead loads.
Any close or incoming birds get pulped.
If I’m shooting on an area that requires non-lead ammunition, if I am not shooting bismuth, I will use a 12 gauge that is steel ready. And go down two shot sizes for convenience. It’s not my preference.

3” 1 1/4 oz 20ga cartridges are lower velocity and don’t seem to perform for me as well as 1oz cartridges do.

RST’s 1oz #5 or #6 loads drop plenty of birds for me in most any gauge.
Here are some I shot in Nebraska in January, that should be late enough season.

I’ve used Fiocchi shotgun and handgun ammunition over the years and never noticed any problems.

12gauge field loads and 500 rounds of .45 ACP, IIRC.

I’ve been universally disappointed with the patterns of 1 1/4 of 4 shot out of 12 gauge guns with less than a modified choke. I like the idea of #4 shot running into pheasants, I don’t like the idea that there are but 168 pellets in that load.

Some Setters aren’t good downed game finders. Some are splendid, and a few can make a lab look incompetent on retrieve. That said, I’ve spent a lifetime comparing the nose on a typical Setter to anything else that runs, and have made my own decision on which is best. I have lost count of the number of times I’ve put a Setter in a field a lab just worked, and ended up moving birds.

YMMV.

Best,
Ted

Fiocchi Golden Pheasant 20 gauge shells are awesome. A bud of mine hunts Ruffed Grouse and that’s all he uses, but in 7 1/2 shot. Killers for sure. Remington Express 20 gauge shells are great too.

It appears that the traditional pre-season best load for pheasant thread has begun
Y'all remember the fella on Shooting Sportsman Forum maybe 10-12 years ago who fashioned his-self a pheasant expert...based on his extensive experience shooting pen-raised birds on a preserve in Alaska He advocated 1 oz. 7s in a 20g when would "go clean through a pheasant at 40 yards!" I think he finally admitted to having never been to the Dakotas for wild birds.
Bro. Larry no doubt remembers.

To the OP, please let us know how your pattern testing turns out. I'm afraid you will find some pheasant sized holes at 40 yds. with 1 oz 5s. I limited my shots to 30 - 35 yds., and avoided the straight going away shots with only back to hit at that distance. Lots of birds flinch and drop feathers only to fix their wings and sail away...then drop in some thick stuff and not to be found by good dogs.

Aaah, remembering Cush.
Those were the days.

Next thing you know, we’ll go fifty pages on GSP’s and the Cohanim. Lol


1300fps cartridges hit the bird harder than 1200fps cartridges. A nice confidence booster, and can marginally bridge the gap between a target shooter (slowing down) and a live animal (speeding up).

For the handful of people that maybe shoot at 5 wild birds a year, run what ya brung.
Confidence will help you more than cartridge choice.
Just follow through, and try to hit them in the front.

Ass packing pheasants is considered bad form. (Too many runners when they get raked from behind).

The difference in the GP line of cartridges, which is what we're talking about, is 45 FPS according to Fiocchi.

203GP5 20 3 Nickel Plated 1 1/4 1,200 5
20GP5 20 2 3/4 Nickel Plated 1 1,245 5

Time of flight and retained energy difference is negligible. I'll take the extra quarter ounce of shot (42 pellets +/-) anytime.


Maybe so, but that seems to be the only view I ever have. Thus a heavy load of #5. It breaks legs and wings and we don't have to chase all over hell to recover the birds.

Real hunting is not a Bob Abbett painting.

Those raking or fundament shots are extremely difficult as you have to employ / engage the shot with the least amount of feather draw and too it is optimum to shoot low & disable their running gear.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

That is just a great example of Kansas pheasants. We took a few distant raking / fundament shots on a Wile E.(Wily) Kansas Pheasant & as noted above he locked his wings and sailed some 300 metres. When we got there we were very suprised to find a huge raptor sitting atop the Kansas Pheasant. We debated on what exactly to do & if the raptor chose to fly off with him, we were going to improvise. The raptor chose to vacate the premises and when he pushed down on the Kansas Pheasant to take off, the pheasant bounced up and we had to shoot him again.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

"ass-packing" on staight away fezzants??" Akin to an Airborne Texas Heart Shot perhaps? I use a load of 7&1/2 shot in the right barrel of my 12 gauge M21- and an express load of No. 6 in the left tube- 12 gauge imp. cyl. and mod. chokes 28" tubes. I try to head shoot the birds, not always possible, and you are right, a crippled and running pheasant on the ground in heavy cover or swampy cat-tails-- a real job of work for the best retrievers- RWTF

gee foxie, once in ah while you make cents...

Something you may aspire to, Ed!

Even in the glory days of ringneck pheasant hunting in the U.S., the majority of shots presented were at flushed birds who were quickly trying to fly away from the dogs or the hunters, not toward them. You could stand there in your tweeds and breeks, and wait for the beaters and drivers to send an incoming bird or crossing shot your way. But it would be a very long wait. Early in the season, or on rainy days,when the birds were more prone to holding tight and flushing up close, it wasn't a big deal to get on a departing bird at under 20-25 yards, and # 6 shot dumped even big native birds handily. At those ranges, an open choke worked very well. Later in the season, I would often switch to # 5 shot, at least for the second shot.

I do recall one hunt with a couple buddies near a local swamp. We had only walked into the field about 50 yds, when a big ringneck went up right in front of the guy in the middle of the line. He knocked it down from the rear, seemingly dead as a stone. The range was under 30 yards. We went over to admire the long plumage before resuming our hunt. We went maybe another 100 yards when I noticed him yelling, frantically jumping up and down, and swatting at the game pouch in the back of his jacket. I walked over just in time to see the bird stick his head out, very much alive. I quickly grabbed it and gave his neck a quick twist, and ended the excitement. I don't think shooting from the rear was the problem, so much as where the pattern was centered.

October pheasants aren't particularly tough anywhere. Assuming a decent hatch, a strong majority of the roosters you'll be shooting will be birds of the year. They're not fully grown yet. You may well run into roosters that don't look like roosters, and you won't know they are unless they make a sort of juvenile squawk. If your buddy has decent dogs, you should get quite a few relatively close shots. The exception to that would be a day with very strong winds, which you do encounter in the Dakotas. Then they're going to be more jumpy and you may want to have some 3" shells along, just in case. Or a 12ga.

I've hunted pheasants in ND in mid-December, which is a very different game. I arrived at the end of the day, with a couple guys in my group just coming in with their birds. Those roosters were packing more fat than any wild pheasants I've ever seen. The only change I made was to switch from 1 1/8 oz 6's (I was shooting a 16ga) to the same load in 5's. Worked well when pattern intercepted bird. But one reason I prefer 6's rather than 5's most of the time: More shot (225/oz vs 170.) And if you don't happen to center the bird, 6's are plenty big to break legs and wings. And if you break a wing and a leg, you stand a very good chance of recovering the bird.

I wanted to thank everyone that replied to the thread, I have certainly learned a lot. I purchased some Fiocchi Golden Pheasant 20 gauge 1 oz, #5 shot shells. I plan on patterning them at various yardages with various choke restrictions. I will let everyone know how it all turns out once I get the wood back from the gunsmith... its in for an oil finish.