Up front, I'm not a big proponent of #9 shot, for much of anything that I use a shotgun for. I read recently that one 7 1/2 pellet has the same energy at 35 yards as two 9s. I've reloaded 9s in the past for doves and wild quail and have been disappointed with the number of solid hits that knock out feathers but fail to bring the bird down. I quit reloading 9s years ago for anything. I will point out that I am not a skeet shooter, but do think that 9s would be fine for the ranges at which skeet targets are shot.

I hunt early release quail (August release) regularly with a buddy who uses 9s exclusively. He seems to kill quail well with his, using a one ounce load in his 20. I use one ounce of 7 1/2s or 8s in my quail gun. I have eaten many quail he and I have killed and have found that, invariably, if I bite into a pellet in a quail breast it is a 9. It is my belief that 8s, and even moreso 7 1/2s, pass through the breast much more consistently than 9s, thus explaining my findings.

Others' findings and opinions would be appreciated.

Nothing to add except Amen. I shoot 7.5’s on birds and 8’s on clays. Don’t shoot skeet.

I am a fan of larger shot, my preference for quail, grouse, and pheasant is size 7, why 7 and not 7.5, just fell onto it when buying Nickel silver plated in the 80’s, it worked, I stuck with it. Maybe the same reason I fell into 16 ga.

My preference for nickel silver plated shot was founded on grouse I was harvesting in Alaska in the 80’s. I noticed early on that the plated shot pulled far fewer downing feathers in the wound tracks than soft lead did.

As for #9 shot, it works, Just not my thing save for clay.

Agree 100%. I don’t like 9s for any hunting application. Too many birds that are clearly hit but fly off. I just bought 3 flats of Winchester AA 9s because that’s all I could get. But I’ll shoot the 9s on informal clays and reload the hulls with hard 7.5s for doves.

9s always worked for me on quail over Pointers.
Stanton’s 35yard comparison didn’t apply, as birds were shot well within that range.
We generally let the split off birds go so they could re-covey.

Skeet and pen raised quail.

I suppose you could hunt woodcock or grouse with 9s, but, I never have.

I met Don Zutz at a skeet shoot at my local club, when I was a 30 something, and bought a few of his books. He had written what I had spent my time discovering to that point, a 1 ounce load of 6s out of something that you would hunt in the upper Midwest was about perfect.
I shoot some 7 1/2s at grouse early in the season, depending on what I have and what is on sale. But, for birds, that is the minimum.

7 1/2 or 8s at clay targets.

Not sure I have 9s in the house.

Best,
Ted

I do use #9s in 410 for dove hunting
and find them useful

Mike

I seldom shoot woodcock at longer range than typical skeet shots. I think that especially for those using standard 28ga loads when hunting woodcock, using 9's in open chokes will provide better pattern density than larger shot. There are quite a few references to shooting woodcock with 10's in hunting literature. I haven't used them often, but haven't been pleased with the results when I have. Birds knocked down, getting back up and flying off. That's not something that has been a problem for me with 9's. I also like 8 1/2's when I can find them--for both skeet and early season grouse and woodcock hunting.

Re the reference to the late Don Zutz, it's worth remembering that Zutz usually hunted dogless. Anyone who does that, I think, is well advise to use larger shot sizes and tighter chokes than those of us who hunt with dogs.

Some woodcockers shoot #9. Doodles don't seem to be as heavily feathered as bobwhites and 9s would bring them down shot at close range. Dogs used, of course, to find and retrieve a higher incidence of cripples than one might encounter with heavier shot.
I prefer #8 and #7.5 for doodles and wild quail shot over my dogs. RST has or had a woodcock load in #10 for one of the subgauges.
I don't shoot clays which explains my mediocre shooting skills and my relatively intact hearing.

Gil

Thanks for the responses so far, but no one seems to have addressed my experiences with 9s staying in the bird much more than 8s or 7 1/2s. I'd appreciate any comments about that. I was attempting to convey, probably poorly, the whole bag of reasons I don't use 9s. I may have failed to emphasize how important the "flesh imbedded shot" issue is to me. I enjoy my birds on the table, and biting into shot takes away a great deal of that enjoyment. It happens from time to time, sure. But, not nearly as often with larger shot as with 9s.

I've no doubt that 9s work perfectly for any small game birds at 25 yards or less. It decks 'em. I've done so many times in the past, and seen my buddy do it. But, when you hit a going away quail, or woodcock, or dove, in the rear at 20 yards and you don't have him in the core of the pattern, and see him drop a leg but keep barreling away, then what have you got? You've got another load of 9s to now attempt to knock down a wounded bird at 35 yards? Not suitable at all to me.

Anytime we use anything other than a single shot gun on birds we should be considering what that second shot may be like, and giving it just as much weighty consideration as the first. We talk about hunting over dogs as if it guarantees close shots. Well, it does often close the distances to a degree on the first shot, at the flush. But, what then? How about second shots at a wounded bird, or even an opportunity to double, but the second bird is out of range of the 9s? How many will, or are happy to, say to themselves "Nope, can't take that shot with 9s"?

I'm slowly using up my stash of .410 reloads, with 9s, on rattlers and cottonmouths. Works fine on them, and if it leaves shot in the meat it's not an issue for me. I don't eat them.

I don’t use nines on any game birds. Just not enough penetration to reach a vital. In the .410 I use 8’s, 7 1/2’s for 28 and above for birds. I do like 7’s for larger birds or later season when birds are bigger and feathers thicker. Early season Dove are well serviced with 8’s out to about 30-32 yards in my full choked .410. And to make sure of my ranges I do walk off and mark my shooting area with known distances from most angles of approach. The only times I shoot longer than that are when birds have clearly been hit by another and are leaving the field, perhaps to die unrecoverable. So I will try to dispatch them a bit beyond my normal shooting range. I hate waste of game birds.

I still use 9’s at skeet but nothing else. Plated shot does reduce feather dragging but it is expensive and hard to find for reloading. I long for the days when I could load copper plated 5’s for ducks and copper plated 2’s for geese. Those were the days to me.

Stan, I’ve shot a lot of wild quail and have settle on #7 exclusively and also use it for dove and pheasants. It seems to be the closest to a perfect shot size for various birds. I too have experienced the poor penetration of #9 on quail and have seen way too many wounded birds fly off to die later. In fact, on the country I hunt I tell newcomers I don’t allow it to be used on our birds. Fortunately I have several lifetimes supply of #7 squirreled away for reloading.

Stan,
Nothing really new to add from me, as I never really considered 9's for any bird. My go to loads are 8/7's right/left barrel early season Grouse and Woodcock and 7/5's later in the season. Speaking of which, Grousemas is just around the corner!
Karl

Fewer shot in the bird at the table is reason enough for me to avoid #9 for any bird, large or small. For the same reason, I have never used #7 1/2 for pheasants or decoyed ducks. #6 is as good, even for close birds and there are fewer of them in the meat. Stan, my friend, thanks for bringing up this old debate.

I probably should have specified in my earlier post that I used 9 in my open-choked barrel and 7.5 in my tighter barrel for quail.

Early season pheasants got a 12 gauge with 6s in the open and 4 or 5 ( when available ) for follow-up.
Late season winter pheasants got 4 all around , as they flush earlier and have thicker plumage.
I anchored more than one bird with heavy 4s that were wounded by a companion.

I always cleaned my own birds and could usually cut any shot out. Usually the shot would take a fragment of feather with it, making the entrance more evident. I won't say I didn't miss any, Stan, but I didn't miss many. Also took care of the bloodshot meat at the same time. When you have women and girl children involved in the cooking and eating of game, you make your life easier if you give them clean looking and "sweet smelling" meat to work with. I did use #9, along with 8s and 7 1/2s, but didn't show much preference between them, except didn't usually use the 9s on a dove field.
Mike

I would like to watch someone "cut any shot out" of twenty five or thirty doves shot with #9 shot after a good shoot with friends. Wake me up in the morning so I can watch you finish up. I've been hunting birds for 65 years and I've never seen anyone "cutting the shot out".

I purchased my first MEC loader, a used 600 Jr. as I recall, in 1969 from an avid quail and dove hunter; a guy named Bobby, a Viet Nam vet who'd lost part of his right hand in the war and who was upgrading his loading equipment. I knew nothing about reloading at the time and asked for "directions"; Bobby assured me that 1 1/8 oz. of #9 shot over a charge of 700X from a AA hull would be the perfect dove medicine. When I commented that I thought #9 shot might be a little light, his comment was that my 12-bore pattern would be so thick with shot that invariably I'd break a wing on virtually every bird hit; and although I'd probably be ringing more than my share of necks, recovery would be a very simple task. I found thru actual experience that his assessment was spot on; and as I gave most of my birds away anyway, I didn't care about imbedded shot. So I used #9 exclusively when dove shooting for several years before switching to mostly #8, and then to #7.5 for many of the reasons expressed herein (most of my shooting was confined to N. GA millet and wheat fields); but I've also killed wild quail, a few bunnies, and one old crow with #9 so #9 shot can be, and is effective when used in the right circumstances. Over the years I've experimented with a variety of shot sizes in 12-bore guns on dove, and whenever I'm serious about obtaining shot-free meat; I use #6 and even #4 shot, but #6 is my preference as the patterns are better. Either of those pellet sizes will penetrate a dove body thru and thru, and all it takes is one pellet strike. As to #7.5 and #8 shot pellets, I've lost count of the doves I've killed that had been wounded by those shot sizes; you start to clean the bird and discover a gangrenous area caused by a #7.5 or #8 shot pellet that failed to penetrate to the vitals and was imbedded and festering in breast muscle. I've often wondered how many birds are wounded in such manner each year that fly off and die from the resulting infections? I suspect very few recover well enough to resume flying. Based on my experience I doubt #9 shot wounds any more dove and quail that #7.5 and #8; and since a #9 is smaller, I suspect the recovery rate of birds wounded by #9 shot is higher than those birds wounded with the two larger shot sizes.

In my early un-informed and innocent reloading days, my arrogant B-I-L who was built like and seemingly as strong as a gorilla, called one day to inform me that he'd finally found a gun "man enough for him" and that he'd purchased all the shells the dealer had in stock. That gun was a 10-bore Spanish auto-ejector double gun with 3.5" chambers and 32" barrels; the shells consisted of 2 boxes (25 count) of paper hulled 3.5" magnums loaded with BB shot and 1 box of 2.875" magnum 4's. So I said great, now what are you going hunt with the gun (we didn't have geese in N. GA in those days); and he said he was taking the gun dove shooting as opening day was just around the corner. To which I responded, you're crazy; you can have the lead perfect but your pattern will be so full of holes the dove will fly thru unscathed. He hadn't thought about that little detail and asked if I had any suggestions. Being much more intelligent I said sure; meet me in at the shop (my reloading stuff was in the "shop"), so he did. Upon examining his Winchester shells, I declared a simple solution; all we had to do was pry open those star crimps, dump out the BB's, fill those hulls with #9, and reset the crimp. That's what we did, and with the hulls now filled to the brim with #9's we found the head of a 20 penny nail was the perfect tool to flatten the crimp; so using that nail and a hammer we tamped down and reset the crimps perfectly, then sealed same with dab of candle wax. He was now ready to take his prize gun dove shooting, but before doing so we felt it imperative that we test our reloading effort first. My B-I-L lived on a dirt road, so we stepped off approximately 100 yards; propped up a 55 gallon steel drum lid with a stick, and fired. Even at that distance the impact was sufficient to send the lid spinning. He commented on the recoil afterwards, but this was his new "man-sized" gun; so clearly additional recoil was to be expected, and was nothing a "real man" couldn't handle! Unfortunately we shot separate fields on opening day, but I saw my B-I-L afterwards and it was evident he had indeed found his "man-enough" gun. He was black, blue, green, and purple from his right elbow to the ear; I was able to restrain myself, but it was all I could do to keep from rolling in the dirt with laughter. He said that was the "kickinest" gun he'd ever fired, he'd actually been knocked on his butt several times; and even over the top of terrace row on one occasion. But by golly he'd bagged his limit! But give him credit for at least being stout enough to take the beating, as I learned he'd fired everyone of those doctored-up 3.5" shells; a normal intelligent man would have quit after the first shot.

I thought about that event afterwards and realized there's significant air space surrounding a 2 ounce stack of BB shot and virtually zero air space in a stack of #9's. I then recalled that our "reloaded" shells did feel quite heavy, so there could have been 3 ounces or more of shot in each one of those 3.5" mags; we never once considered that we should weigh the load. It's a wonder but the gun survived with zero damage, my B-I-L's bruises disappeared in a couple of weeks; and in the end his gun was proven "man enough". My father used to say that sometimes God Himself looks out for fools; He certainly did in that instance and we haven't tried that stunt again.

I also haven't hunted with or loaded #9 in years and years; but were I still shooting skeet, #9 remains my choice for 20-bore and smaller guns. Physical issues don't allow opportunities to shoot much anymore, but there's still a place for #9 shot in my opinion.

"I would like to watch someone "cut any shot out" of twenty five or thirty doves shot with #9 shot after a good shoot with friends. Wake me up in the morning so I can watch you finish up. I've been hunting birds for 65 years and I've never seen anyone "cutting the shot out".

I suppose it's the difference in way we were raised Brother Eightbore, whenever I took home game taken with a shotgun, I make every effort to "pick" all shot pellets out of the meat as there's nothing worse than biting down on a shot pellet except for breaking a tooth when doing so.
My wife now refuses to eat small game because what I just described happened to her. Another reason to pick shot holes is to remove feathers and hair dragged into the meat by a pellet; which material will sometimes actually stop a pellet. No one wants to bite into a piece of game and find a pellet covered by feathers and hair. But apparently consuming shot is not harmful to humans as an elderly hunting bud went into the hospital for some issue and where he was X-rayed. The X-ray showed a number of shot shell pellets in his gut that he'd swallowed over the years; they'd just never been passed.

Stan, regarding downrange energy and depth of penetration with 9's...

I used to shoot Skeet with both 8's an d 9's but in the colder months the 9's just didn't have it every time I hit a clay. I don't know if the clay targets get harder in the cold or if the powder didn't have enough oomph because of the cold, but I never had that problem with 8's.

I've never used 9's for hunting and I gave up shooting it entirely back then when I had poor results at Skeet.

Finding the occasional lead pellet in a dove, quail or pheasant has never really bothered me. I was once in London many years ago on business with a bunch of guys and we went out after work to a pretty fancy restaurant. I ordered pheasant and found a piece of lead shot in it. No big deal. Now steel and tungsten are a whole different matter. Those will really do some damage to your dental work.

This discussion on shot size made me remember something I had read in an old book titled "Hitting vs Missing With the Shotgun" Written by a Ruffed grouse hunter in 1898, S.T. Hammond.
In the book he says,

"The charges that I have used for many years in a 12-gauge seven pound cylinder bored gun, with entirely satisfactory results, are, for the right barrel- which I nearly always use first- three drams of good black powder with five-eights of an ounce of No 10 shot, and for the left barrel the same amount of powder with seven-eighths of an ounce of No. 8 shot. These charges give good penetration and pattern, while the recoil is scarcely noticeable. I do not give these particulars as a guide for anyone to follow until it has been shown by actual experiment that these charges are the best that can be found for the gun in use. Many cylinder bored guns will do good work with these
charges, while with others the performance is not at all satisfactory."

Eightbore,
You have more confidence in my shooting than I deserve. Also, the bag limit must have gone up since I was able to go to a dove field, in those days it was only 12.
Mike

9 shot is useful in the .410, particularly in the 2 1/2 “ and 2”” cartridges where the small (or in the 2” tiny) payload means that pattern density is likely to fail before pellet energy.

For some reason in British loaded cartridges the 2”” seems only to be found with 6 shot, although I have ( but won’t use as they are undoubtedly corrosive) a part box of Eley pre WW2 2” loaded with 8 that were probably intended for snipe.

I agree that in the 3” .410 7, 7.5 or 8 are more sensible choices.

Parabola

"For some reason in British loaded cartridges the 2”” seems only to be found with 6 shot"

Several years ago I came across some 2" .410 Italian made shells loaded with 3/8 ounce #4 shot; these things were tiny and I purchased a box specifically for my B-I-L to use in his Stevens double. We chased bunnies with beagle packs at that time; and since he never missed, I was thinking these tiny shells might level the playing field. They didn't, he used those shells to go 5 for 5 on our next hunt; and I found it impossible to believe those shells could be that effective. So when we returned home I stepped off about 20 yards and placed a "target", a 20" x 24" cardboard box with marked center. My B-I-L then shot the box using one of those tiny shells, after which we counted the pellet strikes produced; the total was three. So I was right, technically those shells weren't worth a crap; but they sure were effective for him that day. Sometimes simply being lucky works better than being good.

At home, we've always prided ourselves on being able to detect shot pellets in our game while eating. I always make a show of dropping the offending shot onto the edge of my plate where if dropped from just the right height onto a proper plate, makes a distinct 'ding' we all recognize...Geo

Stan, I'd guess that's why many hunters have a tighter choke in their 2nd barrel, and go with larger shot. That's what I do. Easy enough solution to the 2nd shot issue. But more often, I either put the woodcock on the ground with my first shot, or he's out of sight for a 2nd attempt. Two pockets in my vest: R for R barrel loads; L for L barrel loads. I do that with pretty much all the birds I hunt. Pheasants . . . if it's Brit 6's in the R barrel, then US 6 or 5's in the L. If US 6 in the R, then 5's in the L. The beauty of a double is that it's like having two single shots, each one set up for a different purpose. But in all the years I've hunted woodcock, usually with 9's or 8 1/2's in the R barrel, I can't recall ever intentionally going to the rear trigger for my first shot. But still, nice to have for a 2nd shot you have one.

Pellets in the meat . . . I guess I've never noticed they're that much of an issue. I definitely did notice that on a shot I had at a crossing woodcock with 10's . . . along with the problem I mentioned before about knocking down birds and having them fly off again.

Good comments about pheasants . . . although they don't really grow a thicker coat for the winter like some critters do. But when the season opens, especially if there have been a lot of late hatch birds, there will be plenty of immature roosters that don't have their full plumage yet. And some may survive the early season because it's hard to distinguish them as roosters. But usually, by the time it gets really cold, they've pretty much caught up to the old survivors as far as feathers go.

But there are a couple of other very good reasons to consider going to larger shot on pheasants later in the season. For one thing, cold weather causes them to eat more in order to put on additional fat to get them through the cold winter months (mostly after the season is over). And cold weather also has a negative impact on the velocity of your ammo, which means reduced energy and penetration. For which you can compensate by switching to larger shot.

Stan,
I used a few boxes of 9s on scales, in California, I found more shot in the birds taken with nines than 8 or 7.5 shot. I mainly use 8s or 7.5 shot for grouse, woodcock, and registered targets. I used 9s during one of our AF skeet shoots and found a lot of pellet bounce back with nines. Never bounce back with 8s.

I killed a few doves last year with some RST 9s in 3/4oz out of my 28. From the limit of 15 birds I had a few hit the ground and took to cover till I ran them. No nines in any of the birds when I cooked them. Maybe RST 9s could be harder than others on the market or most likely just got lucky

Rich

I don't find shot in every quail my buddy kills, but when I do find one in a quail it is nearly always one he killed with his 9s.

Another thought I've been mulling over is why people want to use 9s. I can only assume it is for pattern density. I can think of no other reason to choose them over larger shot. Okay ....... if we accept that 9s have lost most of their punch past 25 yards, the question that then comes to my mind is why anyone needs more density, at 25 yards and under, than 8s can provide. Does anyone seriously think that 8s are so large that they give patchy patterns at 25 yards? I use .410s a lot, and pattern all my loads, before using them on game, on my grease plate. I've never yet seen a pattern of 8s that was too patchy to dispatch a dove, quail or woodcock cleanly at 25 yards. I even have had spectacular results on an early season dove field with 1/2 oz. loads of 8s. So, if 8s will provide all the pattern density needed to cleanly take small game birds, why go to a pellet size with much less energy, like 9s, or (heaven forbid) 10s?

Larry, I know you can extend the usefulness of a doublegun by using two different loads in the two barrels, and I've tried it in my type hunting, with mixed results. I'd rather use the same philosophy with choosing shot size that I do with choosing chokes. Go with one that will do everything, even if it is not perfect for some situations. I shoot tighter chokes than most people I know and shoot with. I punched into NSCA Master class in 2010 using my MX-8 with .020" fixed choke in each barrel. I reason that tight chokes will break birds at all distances, even though they may not be the popular choice for close-in, unpredictable targets, like rabbits. I'll drop a spreader in for the close rabbit, but that is a luxury that sporting offers that hunting does not, necessarily. Same deal with me for shot size ........... I want to use one that will do it all, near or far. All that worrying with different loads for different barrels is a good idea ............. choke tubes are too, for sporting. But, I find great freedom and a greater ability to focus on the task at hand if I keep it simple. YMMV.

Stan, give it up. I have. I'm afraid to use my old axiom, "Learn to shoot", because it offends too many internet posters.

I'm not trying to convince anybody else with what I believe, Bill. I just enjoy hearing others' justifications and trying to make sense of them. Good way to learn.

I do agree with your axiom. You can't buy or gain, success with a shotgun by arguing. It's like learning to drive an Allison on the pad. It takes lots of seat time.

Stan, you're an outstanding shot and you work hard and consistently at being such; your skill level will not diminish regardless of the bore or shot size you choose to take afield.

Sounds you have some special azz licking sauce....I bet John gave you his secret recipe.

Next debate is #9 shot better for ground swatting quail ?

"Sounds you have some special azz licking sauce....I bet John gave you his secret recipe. Next debate is #9 shot better for ground swatting quail ?"

Well Mr. HoJo, I did meet Brother Stan some years ago, found him to be an honest and sincere individual; and a man I could respect. I've no idea what impression I may have made on Stan, but can assure everyone here that there's no "azz licking" going on in whatever unknown relationship we may have developed. But to insure you understand Mr. HoJo, I have the greatest respect for Brother Stan; and I made the comment above because I witnessed first hand Stan's marksmanship with a .410 side x side. Now on the other hand I haven't met you (at least to my knowledge as I can't recall the names of everyone I've ever met), but I have no respect for you personally; and if we were ever to meet I don't think I'd like you at all based on your doublegunshop posts, most of which are clearly either asinine or represent personal attacks. And to set the record straight, I have indeed taken my share of flying bobwhite quail with #9 shot, which I've confessed I used regularly for several years; and if you were any kind of upstanding man at all, you'd avoid making baseless accusations implying that I, or someone else you don't know from Adam is guilty of "ground swatting" quail. Perhaps you sir are guilty of such behavior and this is an instance of the pot attempting to call the kettle black? At any rate I'll never be offended by comments from the likes of you, as you seem to thrive on negativity; and have already insulted a number of posters here who are far better individuals than I'll ever be. I'm sure you're a very intelligent double gun man and what a pity that you'd rather indulge in insults than in any meaningful discussions. And given the number of members who have you on ignore, I've no choice other than to believe you are mostly despised; but rather than being shamed by your behavior, you instead wallow around in twisted orgasmic delight. May God strike me dead if I ever devolve into the kind of individual you have become.

Plenty of wisdom in that remark and skeet is a great game to learn how to do that, when its played as a low gun game and not w/a pre-mounted gun. That's where you'll see most 9's shot and they most certainly do have a use there.. and on snakes as Stan already mentioned. We [my bride & I] eat the dove shot here and that includes those 'breasted' and those picked and having their spines cut out being cleaned from the back and cooked 'skin on' and I don't like having a bird whose breast looks like the top of a salt shaker, regardless of shot size used to bag it. Honestly, I've found many more 8's or 7.5's in birds [dove & quail] than anything else. I don't know anyone personally that hunts game birds w/9's. Not saying that you can't; I just don't know anyone that does. I knew a flyer shooter of note that as his health deteriorated finally got to the point that he could only ride in a driven golf cart and shoot some planted pen raised quail w/a model 42. He told me that he was using AA skeet loads for that, but never mentioned if they were 8's or 9's & I never thot to ask. He did know how to shoot.

Fun, reading the remarks and comments. I use 7/8's oz. of 6's for dove, quail and feral pigeon in a 20 ga. When shooting factory ammo Federal field loads [the older ones] are my pref. even tho the hulls tend to split on some of them and flair the heads after some years of storage so one has to 'twist' them into a double gun or set them aside for dismantling, as those hulls that do that are unusable in a semi auto. When shooting reloads [all Winchester AA CF or Remington STS hulls], I use #6 or 7 lead shot for the same purposes and find it most satisfactory. Lead 6's & 7's don't oft stay in a dove or quail [Bob's].. from my observations. We don't eat feral pigeons, but do the Eurasian dove and there is no closed season as they are an 'invasive' species, so they may be taken year 'round and there is no limit. They are smaller than a rock dove/feral pigeon, but larger than a mourning dove, white-winged or white-tipped dove. You can find a pellet in one on occasion. I find the best rule when eating game birds is to do so w/caution, treating them the same as fish, sausages or crispy bacon. Probably more teeth have been broken eating chicken or pork chops than on shot. Dentist's would know more about that than I do.

Some hunters and shooters are convinced that people go with open chokes because they're poor shots. In the case of woodcock, especially early in the season, you either take close shots or you don't shoot at all. No choke at all is plenty, except maybe in the 28ga, where you might need some to make sure the pattern isn't too thin. If you use anything tighter than IC, then you'd better be using a light load of larger shot or you're going to do the bird severe damage--even if the pellets pass through the meat. 7/8 oz 9's or 8 1/2's--a standard skeet load for the 20ga--is a good choice. A 25 yard shot is long, and what works for skeet shooters will work just as well for woodcock hunters. Not as true with quail, because you can often wait a little before you pull the trigger. But you can't do much waiting to shoot at woodcock until the leaves are down, other than the rare bird that allows you an unobstructed look for very long.

Interesting discussion. Making it clear once more than there are different strokes for different folks.

Indeed, when it comes to choke choices, barrel lengths, stock dimensions, etc. For example, the last day I had on woodcock was with my friend/mentor Gil and his two Brittanys. We had a super day finding birds. I was using, for the first time on woodcock, my 28 ga. FAIR Verona O/U. I had in it a skeet choke (btm bl) and IC (top bl). It has 30" barrels. Thirty inch barrels are not exactly considered the proper length for woodcock in thick cover, but it worked quite well. Both Gil and I got our limits. And, I guess how much lead pellets in your meat bothers you is a personal thing, too. Bothers me a lot, so I do what I can to prevent it. However, lack of energy at range is NOT a personal issue, or shouldn't be. Having been shot numerous times in my life by careless people on dove fields I can testify to the punch a 7 1/2 or 8 has at 35+ yards. Never been shot with a #9 (and hope I never will be, for that matter I hope to never be shot with anything again). That's all anecdotal I know, but the ballistics charts don't lie, and I carry with me a reminder. Got shot by a careless shooter several seasons ago. I didn't think it had even penetrated the skin but, at my last dental checkup they took x-rays and showed them to me. That no. 8 had penetrated my upper lip at roughly 45 yards. My stand was farther then that from the shooter, but I was walking out in his general direction to pick up a dove I had just shot when he swung, carelessly, on a low dove and one pellet nailed me. It still had so much punch that it deformed the lead pellet upon hitting the bone structure above my upper front teeth.

I didn’t realize that you knew Dick Cheney.

Taking some bird shot to the face gets you some more street credibility Stan. FWIW, agree with your thoughts on 9s. For my experience, copper plated 6's sail through everything I hit with them. 9's are just for target practice.

Larry, the main problem I see with using smaller shot, such a 9's is that most of us aren't able to consistently hit our birds with the center of the pattern. I often only hit them with the fringe of the pattern. Using the 7's one pellet is often all that is needed to penetrate to the vitals but a single 9 seldom has enough energy to put a bird down hard but they fly off to die later. Now, all I shoot are wild birds and the action is quick and often unexpected and on very uneven ground with mesquite trees everywhere. So, quick intuitive reactions are critical and no time to plan where to center the bird.

This comment about #9s was made recently on another site.

"One of the better live bird shots I knew once told me he always loads high brass 9's for the rise and sometimes in both barrels, but he'd prefer 10's if they were available. Mark was a very quick shot."

This in an event where considerable sums of money are often on the line.

I have reached out to Paul (mel1541) and asked him if he would share his considerable experience with wild quail, doves and flyers, and his opinions of #9s for the same. I hope the idiocy that seems to pervade this place hasn't run him off, and that he will weigh in.

I never shoot 9’s at upland birds. I hunt primarily bobwhite quail and ruffed grouse over pointing dogs and prefer 7 1/2 shot, almost never shooting 8’s. I might use 9’s on a dedicated woodcock hunt, but I’m usually sorta bummed when my dogs point a timberdoodle instead of a grouse. Like the .410 (except for dove), #9 shot is a game crippler imho.

I made the mistake of shooting #9’s at a rabbue teal target at the US open a few weeks ago. Trap was about 20 yards and they threw the rabbue up at maybe 45-50 degrees. Fast too. I came up with the bright idea to use #9 and skeet choke since it was pretty close……BAD IDEA. I think that tiny shot may have just glanced right off that target. Shipwrecked my good score. Shot an 87 despite missing all 4 of those targets. I decided I’m not shooting any more #9 shot at sporting clays ever again after that fiasco. ;-)

Not much on clays now, back when I shot 16 yd. Trap- we all shot Federal Champion paper shells No. 7&1/2-- great load- also used those shells for years in the first barrel (imp. cyl.) of the M21 12 bore- used an express No. 6 shot in the left (mod) barrel-- seemed to work pretty well, back when we had pheasants to hunt here in MI-- season opened Oct. 20th- ran to Nov. 14- 2 roosters/daily limit. Now I read that our dipsticked DNR clowns are charging an extra $25.00 for a pheasant tag in addition to your base hunting license- what next?? RWTF

Joe, it's worth noting that "period" literature on shooting woodcock makes reference to using 10's. (John Alden Knight's "Woodcock", for example.) As I've noted above, I tried one box and determined that was enough for me. The good thing about 9's and open chokes is that they tend to fill out a pattern very nicely. Were that not true, skeet shooters wouldn't use them. And having walked around skeet fields and picked up unbroken targets with at least one hole in them--sometimes 2, rarely 3--it's a certainty that good skeet shooters aren't counting on single pellet hits to do the job. But they seem to work quite well on woodcock, which are often shot very close (and also very quick) before they disappear in the cover. Outdoor writer Steve Smith, who's shot a lot of woodcock and lives in northern Michigan where he doesn't need to travel much to find them, once paced off woodcock kills and recorded distances: Average of 13 yards for first shot kills; 15-16 for 2nd shot kills. They're not particularly fast, but they often don't need to fly far to be out of sight. That, I think, explains very open chokes and 9's. Maybe something larger in the tighter choked 2nd barrel.

I'm sure you have a bunch more experience on bobwhites than I do. I'd never use 9's on them. 8's seem to be a better choice, or even 7 1/2's. Especially the latter for a 2nd shot, because they're a lot faster than doodles. And most of the places I've hunted them, at least sometimes they stay in the open long enough that you can take longer shots than you're likely to get very often on woodcock.

Larry, Have you ever seen a woodcock fly off like a grouse? I sure have…flew like rockets and even made a similar explosive like noise typical of grouse. I’ve often wondered if the slow one’s are the birds which are exhausted after their long haul migration….and the fast ones are the well rested. I think so.

I'll answer just for fun. There are quail around but they are rare enough that I haven't seen one in thirty years and those were in a kennel club dog training area so the only thing I would use lead 9s on is woodcock that seem to always get up very close. I usually load for grouse though so at least 7.5s. The woodcock I flushed turkey hunting this spring confirm the ranges I remember. when I first started shooting trap I used 9s but that was forty years ago and I can't remember the results but I do remember I used 7.5s later on. Oh, and by the way, this might not apply here but when someone starts talking loads I always want to know the gauge, shot weight, shot size, and choke. Like when someone says "cylinder choke is the best all-around choke with modern ammunition".

Buzz, living where I do (northern Wisconsin), we have a pretty fair population of local birds. I've certainly seen flight birds that you almost had to nudge with your boot to get them airborne. But I'm not sure I've ever seen a woodcock's flight I'd compare to a rocket. It makes sense that they do fly faster when they're in the open, like flying down a trail or something.

Comment on flight birds vs locals: I've seen several articles that tell us woodcock breed and raise their young a lot further south than we once thought. I hunted them in Iowa for about a decade before I ever headed north to hunt them. Back then, the season opened in mid-September. We always found woodcock on our opening day hunts in northern Iowa. Pretty obvious that they wouldn't have been flight birds that early in the fall. And it turns out that some woodcock nest a good bit further south than Iowa.

That's a good point. I'd say 9's are fine through a gun with no choke if you're shooting at least 7/8 oz loads. I had a nice little 20ga Sauer from the 30's that I had opened to C/IC. Worked quite well with standard 20ga skeet loads both when shooting skeet and when hunting woodcock. If you're shooting a 28ga and standard skeet loads, you might want at least a little choke.

Larry I think he said cylinder choke was the best all around choke with modern ammunition.

Bottom line....

Only a total moron would shoot #9 sized shot or smaller at wild game.

If a woodcock is shot at 15 or 20 yards there is not one that could fly through the pattern of a cylinder bore gun using 7/8 or 1 ounce of 7 or 7 1/2. But the larger shot might make a mess if the pattern was centered. Maybe that is the reason puny 9’s are commonly used—less damage to the bird. Can’t think of another reason. (Oh, I’ve never even seen a woodcock, so guess I’m an armchair expert).

I am unsure if one size shot is more likely than another to stay in the bird. I do think that given the same weight of load, say 1oz, there are more 9’s than the larger shot and all other things being equal you get more 9’s in a bird than other shot. It might be more than just size as larger shot might pass though. I am not sure how much pass through penetration there would be. I would agree that larger shot penetrates more.

Ultimately if your find is happy with his load and it works for him, then that is enough.

Joe, you're absolutely right about a woodcock not being able to get through a pattern of 7 1/2s at 15-20 yards and, it's just my personal preference but, I'd rather have a tad more "meat damage" than bite a pellet. I get on a quail pretty quick occasionally, and you would think I'd center one in the pattern eventually. I've never had to throw a quail away from meat damage, shot with 8s out of a skeet choke. Not in years and years.


Size is the reason larger shot are more likely to pass through, Michael. Increased size means increased mass and amounts to increased momentum. Increased momentum means a higher likelihood of a shot passing through, all else being equal.

Stan, you shouldn't have to say that. Some things are so rudimentary and obvious that they shouldn't have to be pointed out. But here we are...

I have often found even # 6 or # 5 shot embedded in the meat of pheasants, especially when shot from the rear at greater ranges. But I rarely bit into any, because the wound channel is evident and it is easy to find the pellet. But it is still prudent to chew gently on any bird killed with a shotgun, and especially game cleaned by someone else.

I haven't used # 9 shot for years, and never on game. I think it stands to reason that the low mass and greater pellet count per ounce is going to dramatically increase the odds of finding shot in your meat. I recall that i#9's seemed more likely to merely chip clay targets without breaking them than larger shot, but really smoked them with a good center hit at close range. I suppose it would be great on starlings or grackles at relatively close range.

That X-ray of the shot pellet embedded in your gum was impressive. A few inches higher and you could have been permanently blinded. If someone did that to me, I can't imagine not calmly walking over and knocking him out.

I can recall one woodcock I shot that had very severe meat damage. It was an unusual incoming shot. Brain fart on my part. I shot it like a Station 8 at skeet rather than pivoting and shooting it going away. As best I can recall, I was using 7/8 oz of 8 1/2's in a gun choked somewhere between cylinder and skeet. Unlike a lot of hunters, I really enjoy the taste of woodcock. That one wasn't a total loss. I was able to salvage one side of the breast.

I also recall one bobwhite victim where my Brittany had difficulty deciding which piece to pick up. He finally decided on a wing. That one was shot with 7/8 oz 8's at close range . . . but through a modified choke.

I had a similar experience with a friend’s dog when I shot a young rabbit too far back with a .22 Hornet.

The dog, a 3/4 Labrador 1/4 Collie, was usually very efficient but my friend’s puzzlement he seem to be spending quite a while fiddling around.

He eventually came back with a disgusted look on his face preceded by a fan of rabbit legs that he was gingerly holding by the paws with the sticky bits as far as possible from his muzzle!

Huummm- the late Bert Popowski, Dean of crow shooters in a by-gone era- used 12 gauge No. 9 skeet loads in his Ithaca M37 with a modified choked barrel-- Of course, we are not shooting crows for the table, neither barn pigeons or other trash birds, and as he so wisely pointed out, 90% of the target area on a crow is the wings, they have slight body mass-- I once found a close out sale on a flat (10 boxes) of 12 ga. AA No. 9 skeet loads (about 10 years ago) and used them with great success on crows and barn pigeons. RWTF

Fox you read too much hOrse chit...

If I were a skeet shooter I would load9s a dedicated trapshooter 7 1/2s. Since I prefer sporting clays I like 7/8 or 1 ounce 8s works for all clay games and dog training over pen raised birds and also good for the few wild quail / dove and woodcock here in tidewater Va. when I travel to hunt Grouse I use 6s and Phesant#5.

I have called and shot crows for over thirty years in pecan orchards and edges of peanut fields. At the ranges we shoot crows 9s would be totally unsuitable. Having used everything from 4s to 8s I have settled on 6s as my favorite shot size for them. Fours work really well, too.

I get them in very close- tree top high- I used a Johnny Stewart cassette game caller (also for 'yotes in Winter- and we take a dead crow and wire his leg to that off a fluttering cripple, and fling it airborne and let it hang in the tree limbs- use the hawk and crow fight recording-and we take the 3 shot plugs out of our M12's-- bring lotsa shells-RWTF

Holy crap... you'd better delete this post ASAP. I can just see the guy who ratted out Hrenegade to the Michigan DNR several years ago for (legally) shooting bats now turning you in to the Humane Society and PETA.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...amp;Main=5494&Number=56078#Post56078

I ran calculations of 7/8 oz. #8 and #9 chilled lead at 1100 fps in KPY shotshell ballistics program to determine distance required for 1.5" penetration into ballistic gel.
#8 at 29.3 yards penetrated the gel 1.5" at a final velocity of 767 fps.
#9 at 10 yards penetrated the gel 1.5" at a final velocity of 863 fps.

At 29.3 yards, #9 penetrated .88" with a final velocity of 610 fps.
In all three calculations, the non lead shot ejecta was the same. Gil

Not trying to win a debate here, just proffering a somewhat widely held opinion and an anecdote.

Years ago I was dove shooting with a friend who used a SxS and 9 shot chill.
While walking out of the field, a great big cock Pheasant flushed at about 20 yards. It startled both of us as
we were in serious conversation about all the shots on dove we both made and missed. Though he shouldn't have and probably out of instinct,
he raised and fired one shot out of his IC choked bbl. That rooster absolutely folded stone cold dead in a big 'ole fluff of feathers.
I have bird hunted over 60 years now and have never seen anything like that before or since.

When we cleaned that bird we took note that not one single feather was pulled into the meat by the shot, and, not one penetration
hole could we find in that bird anywhere.

Sectional Density impact kills. Dove and pigeon shooters have know that for years, and little to no damage to the meat at all; in most cases,
they die by shock. With a dove, if you're not there to retrieve it quickly, often they have been known to "recover" and fly off.

They used to write about Sectional Density Impact quite a bit a number of years ago; I haven't seen much about it recently.

In the grouse woods for example I would consider it a poor choice as it likely wouldn't make it through the trees, branches, leaves or brush but
it might be said that the Sectional Density Impact of #9 shot keeps it from being relegated to the "useless" column.

With a lifetime of hunting in my rearview mirror, and about to start my 62nd season of shooting doves, I must respectfully disagree. The reason you don't hear much anymore about SDI alone killing is because it is bunk. The principle of blunt force trauma doesn't apply to shot pellets. Organ damage and blood loss kills. They used to talk about bullet shock killing, too. Don't hear much about that anymore either.

I have never picked up a dead dove in my life that did not have pellet holes in it, or have a broken wing bone from a pellet. And that number would now be somewhere north of 11,000 doves. When a dove flies off it isn't because it is recovering from some SDI. It is because it was hit with pellets in non-vital areas, IMHO. One parting question ........... if you knock down a dove and he recovers enough to fly off as you approach, and escapes, how do you know it had no holes in it from pellets? You never got to examine it.

That sectional density bunk is demonstrated when you get hit across the back with a load of small shot, none of which penetrates. It takes your breath away, but you get up and walk back to your shooting stand and continue on with your day.

Fox I got you an invite Stanley's dove hunt you taking #9s on the hunt ?

Was this yOu shooting at a dove last season hOmey? The profile looks right, based on pics yOu've posted of yOurself in the past.

Wasn't me Sanford....I haven't been dove shooting in years.

Is that the station you're putting Fox' on ?

I can't imagine shooting crows with 9's either.

I do recall reading the recommendations of one guy who talked about 9's at very high velocity for wild pheasants. Said he never found any pellets in the meat. That didn't quite make sense to me. Roster's lethality trials on pheasants and steel shot indicated that steel 6's, pretty much the ballistic equivalent of lead 7 1/2's, would do the job inside of 30 yards. I've shot a fair number of pheasants with 7 1/2's and they do work quite well at close range. But you also end up with a lot of shot in the meat.

Fox, you better take Stan up on his dove hunt offer. God only knows when Michigan will have an open dove season, if ever.

4’s seem like serious medicine for wild pheasants….9’s are a joke.

Yep.
A stiff load of 4s is the ticket for early-flushing late season pheasants.

Originally Posted by Buzz
"4’s seem like serious medicine for wild pheasants….9’s are a joke."

I experimented with 4 shot on a dove shoot years and years ago; they worked very well, zero cripples.
And although I no longer suggest using #9 shot for hunting anything, I don't see #9 shot as a "joke" either based on lots of experience; and I'll relate a couple of instances from the misspent days of my youth. The first was a crow. I was walking a tree line when I heard a calling crow flying in my direction; I stopped and listened, and the crow crossed the tree line about 25-30 yards almost directly overhead. I shot quickly and the crow never slowed, but then I saw a dangling leg. As I watched, the crow flew another 30 yards or so and folded like a rock; it was dead in mid-air, just took the bird 3-4 seconds to come to that realization.
On another occasion while dove hunting on an extremely slow day, I watched several buzzards slowly circling overhead as buzzards are prone to do. Bored ad nauseum and wanting to shoot my gun, I'm thinking if that buzzard comes much closer I'm going to salute him with my 12-bore; so the bird got closer and I saluted with one of my 700X powered #9 reloads. To my utter shock and amazement, the buzzard folded like a stone and fell directly towards my blind; and exiting my blind that afternoon was the fastest I've ever moved! Perhaps one of those tiny pellets brained that buzzard (?); but it couldn't have been killed any deader than if it'd been hit with a load of BB shot.
Again, and now much older and wiser, I don't advocate #9 shot for game birds; but there are gunners who prefer doing so and they do so because they believe in the success they've enjoyed using #9 shot. Clearly most posters here believe game shooting with #9 shot is unethical, and perhaps it is; but unethical or not it is legal, and will remain so until game laws are changed.

And let me also say that I fully understand and appreciate Brother Stan's attitude towards #9 shot, but I also want to point out the differences in the Georgia dove fields each of us shot/shoot over. My hunting areas were confined to N.E. Georgia, the Piedmont region of the state and an area replete with rolling hills; which geography limited the size of tillable areas, so dove fields were typically small consisting of 2-5 acres. The result was that most shots were 30 yards or less. In the South GA Coastal plains region of the state where Stan does most of his dove shooting farming is huge; fields are flat and some stretch as far as one can see. The result is that dove fields often consist of dozens and hundreds of acres. I've never had the opportunity to hunt a South GA field but folks I know who have reported that it took quite a few hunters just to keep the birds moving, and that shot opportunities were often at longer ranges. So clearly Stan prefers a larger shot size; and even when I was young and stupid I'd have had enough sense to use larger shot under those conditions.

In a lot of cases, a joke; yes. Not the shot size of choice, not suitable, yes, yes, yes. Serious medicine for pheasant - of course not.

But the thread is about usefulness. Whether anyone agrees or not, 9 shot possesses usefulness. Have snakes been mentioned yet?

I'm sorry I brought up Sectional Density Impact which Stan points out is bunk.
Still, that pheasant I witnessed die dead as can be at about 30 yards and the many dove I've witnessed die-right-now to 9 shot, and those
birds top gun talks about all proved to be vivid, memorable and lasting visual images which attest to just how useful 9 shot can be in certain instances.

Useless? My opinion is no.

Snakes? Yes, first post on page 2.

I prefer a cylinder-bored 12 gauge with #8s in my standby pest gun. I like the positive reinforcement visual I get when venomous snakes and skunks somersault when hit.

One-half ounce of 9s will remove the head forthwith ........... good enough for me. So, not totally useless.



Only reason I have any at all is that a reloading buddy found them so useless to him that he gave me three bags. That'll kill a lot of snakes at 1/2 oz. per load. One bag is being slowly used up that way. The other two are riding in the left side of my Allison to help balance the weight when I'm driving it with no passenger. Nines seem to work quite well for that.

A good snake is a dead snake for 99% of them..

People have different ideas about killing snakes. Scientists tell us that the snakes do more good than bad by controlling other vermin and should not be killed. Some snakes are protected. I am kind of ambivalent about it; I usually walk around a rattler or moccasin while turkey hunting, but I'll kill one on sight in a dove field or anywhere around my home. I don't harm non-venomous snakes if I can help it....Geo

Bill Hanus was a big fan of #9 for pheasant and other birds inside of 30 yards. Claims the sectional density "shock" kills them and the small pellets would penetrate head and neck while not penetrating feathers into the body. Charles "Nick" Hammack who developed the DR16 wad with Kevin at Downrange also says the same thing for phez in SD. They both claim light loads of 9 shot at high velocity do the trick best. Personally I want an oz. and a quarter of #5 @1200 fps on my November and later pheasants in SD. Bird numbers aren't what they used to be and only have so many days to hunt. I'm not going to pass on shooting at a bird that is "out of range" because I brought a knife to a gunfight. The dogs work too hard for that to happen.

Not a fan of 9 shot for either feathers or clays.



I'm with you and yes cold makes a difference. Not only harder but the targets that sit through freeze and thaw cycles get "punky" as they absorb moisture on the thaw cycle and 9 shot will go through them without breaking them. I went to 8 shot for skeet after my first couple of years in Mn. Even for 16 yard trap in the winter 8's will often just get dust off clays in the winter but 7.5 will break them. When I was younger and dumber used to shoot in the blizzard league against Wi. starting with the Red Eye shoot on Jan. 1 Temps are often in the twenties below zero, Fahrenheit, and you can tell the shooters that are using 8's they will get dust off a target but not break it occasionally. If they were from Mn. I would tell them if they were using 7.5 they would have broken that bird. If they were from Wi. I'd just smile. Actually we all are pretty good friends and the discussion about 7.5 vs. 8 in the winter is common. In the clubhouse with the heater cranked full blast.

Only use I have for 9 shot is to use it for sound and vibration isolation between my Polk towers and Velodyne subwoofers.



I also have 4 bags of 9 shot in the base of the printer stand that the swing arm monitor is connected to next to me to stabilize it. About the only thing I can think of where 9 shot is useful. Paid less than $10 a bag for it back then, now I have a small fortune in 9 shot ballast in my living room.

I kill venomous snakes on my property.
They’re safe from me anywhere else. We have big bull snakes here, and I welcome them to keep the field mice in check.

I kill poisonous snakes anywhere they may come in contact with a person. If I see one crossing a road, away from habitation or work areas, they get a pass. The one in the pic was at a gated entrance we go in and out of regularly, and have to get out of the truck to open and close the gate.

I do like the DR-16 wad. But I don't think I'm going to start using 9's for pheasants. For one thing, if you've got a rooster that's giving you a mostly going away angle, the head and neck become a very small target. I'd rather count on breaking wings and legs, and punching into other vital organs.

I'm pretty sure I've never shot a pheasant with 4's either. I like 5's well enough late season, but I really prefer 6's. I've shot a lot more pheasants inside of 30 yards than I have beyond 40. Late season roosters are tougher because they're all fully grown (vs the juveniles you'll shoot at the start of the season) and have also accumulated some fat. But depending on conditions and how much hunting pressure they've survived, they may not necessarily give you only long shots.

I like an ounce of 5 or 6 for 16ga pheasants.

12ga pheasants get 1oz or 1 1/8oz of 4 or 6

I might shoot 7 1/2 at Sharptails but like #6

Doves get 7/8 oz of #8

These kill what I shoot.

Chokes are over rated.

I don't kill snakes except in Africa.

I hope that doesn't come back to bite you ..............

Funny Stan! I've been around a lot of rattlesnakes in WY and ID. Had a hunting dog get bit in the face once. I quit killing them when I found one trying to get down a hole but his middle was to large because of the mouse he had inside. They are good rodent control.

Africa snakes are aggressive. Their venoms are neurotoxic and necrotic. Get bit by either and you are in deep sheet. I don't like messing with them.

There was three brothers that lived in my area that used 12 gauge A5 Brownings with high power #9 shells and they were deadly on a covey rise hunting quail. Bobby

American herpetologists are quick to say that no American venomous snakes are aggressive. That may be, but I've encountered a few big, rusty cottonmouths that had serious anger management issues. They don't try to get in the bateau with you because they are wanting to be friends. We've broken a few fine, handmade cypress paddles upon bringing them to bear edgewise across the backs of big, swimming cottonmouths alongside the boat. I doubt they eat many mice in the creeks and sloughs, either..

Rattlers when encountered almost always back away from you. Moccasins often come right at you. Just my observations...Geo

And the child will put his hand in the viper’s den…



__________________________
…but not yet.

I have been on a trip and had little time to read here, but I just read through this thread. I have never used #9 lead on game birds, but got a bag cheap and shot clays with it; seemed to work ok for that.

I haven't seen it mentioned in the thread, but I guess the assumption was that we are talking about lead #9 only. And while it may have limited uses, #9 tungsten is a different story. It is great for turkey hunting where you are trying to kill him by hitting the head or neck. There are also folks using it in waterfowl loads, most often duplexed with much larger steel shot.

I got this TSS info straight from Apex ammo....

"A TSS #9 pellet weighs 1.2 grains. #9's are the perfect TSS pellet size. More energy than lead 4's and equal energy to hevi shot 5's."

When I mentioned that according to one of my handloading manuals a lead #7 shot weighs 1.50 grains and lead #4 pellet weighs 3.30 grains they went into a density tail spin....

I'm still waiting on someone to explain to me how a lighter pellet leaving the muzzle at the same velocity could have more energy than a heavier pellet....when I questioned them on that they wanted to claim the #9 was more aerodynamic.

Only thing harder than TSS is the peoples head that fell for it.

You hit and don't kill a big swimming cottonmouth with a boat paddle and he might be riding in the boat with you....in my experiences with them they can be one of the most aggressive poisonous snakes out there especially in the spring.

jOe, one of these days you are going to try TSS and kill a couple of gobblers you know you couldn't have with lead shot. Until you see it for yourself I know you will never believe it, but there are a number of advantages to TSS, including the ability to shoot lightweight guns, reduced recoil, and the effectiveness of the ammunition. Besides that, you will never know the feeling of unlimited wealth one gets when he knows that every shot costs him $7.50 and he has to sight in his shotgun using that expensive ammo...Geo

"You hit and don't kill a big swimming cottonmouth with a boat paddle and he might be riding in the boat with you....in my experiences with them they can be one of the most aggressive poisonous snakes out there especially in the spring".

Every North GA frog gigger knows that you don't kill cotton mouth and copperhead snakes with the flat of a boat pattern; you use the edge of the paddle blade. In two pieces snakes can't/don't jump or climb. This method works every time provided you make contact; snakes can swim incredibly fast and can be by you in an instant! I also learned that gigging from a boat with someone who is deathly afraid of snakes can be more dangerous than the snake.

["I also learned that gigging from a boat with someone who is deathly afraid of snakes can be more dangerous than the snake." Topgun]


That's a fact! I've gone home soaked more than once when a buddy freaked out over a snake...Geo

A friend had to beat one to death with a golf club on a course in Houston.
The snake considered a water hazard as it’s territory, and kept advancing when he backed off.

I have spent over fifty years in the African bush and have only felt nervous about a snake a handful of times. Nervous enough to kill one only once, a small spitting cobra resident by a house with small children. It is sobering to look down and see a six foot puff adder at your feet, more so if your foot is coming down on it. Or to find a cobra in your tent or house, but I have yet to encounter an aggressive snake or one that didn't just want to get away.

Never liked being thigh deep in an Ozark stream and having a cottonmouth come for me but my few encounters with black mambas easily topped those.

George what part of this can you not comprehend'a....

Saw a guy blow a hole in a flat-bottomed wooden boat when a snake dropped out of a tree into it. Don't know what shot size he used but the pattern was really tight.

My son had a friend whose father had been a medical missionary in Cameroon. The father said two diseases they never saw in clinic were coronary artery disease and snakebite. They never saw CAD because the locals had no cars, cigarettes, or cheeseburgers. They never saw snakebite because no victims lived long enough to get to the clinic.

Yes, neurotoxin kills very quickly.

My grandfather was my fishing partner when I was a kid. He warned me many times that I better not ever jump out of the bateau when a snake dropped off a limb into it. I didn't, but I drew myself up tight against the front end more than once. Granddaddy would never move his feet or legs. He'd just pick up that long, skinny paddle and crunch that cottonmouth in the corner against the live well. Then, he'd casually pick it up with the paddle and drop it over the side into the lake, then pick up his reel, and resume fishing. I know it had to have excited him a little but I could never tell it.

Do you have any Burmese pythons in Georgia yet, or does Florida have them all? I think I'd go heavier than #9 for those things.

I think Stan wrestled a few pythons in the hen house.....

If we are really gOOd maybe Stanley will tell us again how his granpappy shot coveys of quail on the ground......he called it ground swatting.

No pythons up here yet. But, I'm in E. Central Georgia.They are thriving in the sub-tropical climate of the Everglades, and maybe some other areas of S.Florida. I don't think they'd do as well up here. Then again, up until about thirty years go there weren't any armadillos here either. As aggravating as they are, I hope this climate and topography is better suited to armadillos than pythons.

They are making headway in reducing the numbers in the Everglades, albeit with great efforts. I read they caught one last year that was 18.9' in length.

We been gOOd little boys Stanley tell us the ground swatting story aigain....

Did your granpappy invent he live well ?

jOe, you blew off the aerodynamics part. Simplify it by thinking which you could hurt a turkey the most with if you threw it at him with all your might: a baseball or balloon? Just try'in to help you out there. Maybe next time we'll get into the hard part about weight and density...Geo

I was assigned to CIA's Africa Division and posted to Morocco. We had venomous snakes, but they weren't a serious problem . . . although our gardener did find a pit viper in the backyard. I figured that was the embassy housing officer's problem. So I took the (dead) snake to work in a paper bag. Dumped it on his desk. In spite of which we remained friends.

Colleagues who'd been assigned sub-Sahara talked about places where everyone kept antivenin in the refrigerator. Black mambas being one of the major concerns.

A baseball has quite a bit more mass and sectional density than a balloon Geo. The point jOe was making was about kinetic energy, and the fact that a lead #4 or even #7 shot pellet weighs more than ##9 TSS pellet. Certainly, the denser TSS sphere will retain velocity better, but the comparison is nothing like comparing retained velocity of a baseball vs. a balloon.

Tell us the kinetic energy of a 1.2 gr. TSS shot pellet hitting a turkey at 30 yards and the kinetic energy of a 3.3 gr. #4 lead pellet at the same range and the same starting muzzle velocity. The real advantage of the TSS appears to be velocity retention and mostly pattern density. We have seen evidence that #9 TSS will certainly kill a turkey, and so will #4 lead shot. You could also kill a turkey with a single fastball to the head. But you could throw a thousand balloons at the turkey without knocking a single feather loose. Nice try.

Using as a standard, where 1.25 oz. of #9 TSS and 1.25 oz. of #4 lead shot begin to decrease to 1.5” of penetration with an initial muzzle velocity of 1100 fps the comparison of individual pellet expressed in ft. lbs. and energy density expressed in ft. lbs. per square inch:
If in fact Apex stated that #9 TSS has the better energy than #4 lead per individual pellet travelling at same velocity, that would be incorrect. However, at 1100 fps, a load of 1.25 oz of #9 TSS has 1.5” of ballistic gel penetration at 58 yards with an individual pellet energy of .78 ft. lbs., but an energy density level of 155.4 ft. lbs/square inch because there are 446.74 pellets of TSS in the 1.25 oz. load.
1.25 oz. of #4 lead contains 167.32 pellets. At 1100 fps, it has gel penetration of 1.5” at 59.6 yards with a final velocity of 531 fps with 2.04 ft. lbs of energy per individual pellet, but an energy density of 153.7 ft. lbs. /square inch.
While a 1.25 oz. #4 lead load has individual pellet energy greater than 1.25 oz. of TSS #9, it doesn’t have greater energy density than TSS.
Calculations based on KPY Shotshell Ballistics program. https://kpyshotshellballistics.com/
Gil

I've no experience with TSS shot, but from research conducted by my turkey hunting Friend, Buck Hamlin, pattern density is a more reliable killer of tom turkeys than shot size. Buck is a turkey fanatic and when I visited his shop some years ago he showed me his personal "research". On one wall of his shop were the neck vertebrae and skulls of all the gobblers he'd bagged to that point (he's added many more since); he'd cleaned all flesh from those bones and wired them together. As we visited he'd take down examples, pointing out and counting the shot holes in the bones; a couple of which showed two strikes, and his conclusion was that all that was required to kill a turkey was one pellet strike in the skull or neck vertebrae. So, and based on his personal research, he believed in pattern density and small shot; his favorite load at the time being hand a loaded 3" 12 gauge shell with 2 ounces of #8 shot. Buck is a tinkerer and for that season he was using an A-5 with a 3" chamber, and he'd modified the original barrel by installing one of his super tight choke tubes; he'd also installed a V-notch rear sight, which looked a bit odd as it was offset to the left side of the rib, but gave him the ability to consistently place the shot charge shot to shot. To prove the effectiveness of his modified Browning barrel, showed me a 40 yard pattern he'd fired with #8 shot; and 90% of the pattern could be covered with a ball cap! I don't think he uses the same gun year to year, but his weapon of choice is always something he's made or modified from muzzle loaders to vintage breech loaders; and they've all have been modified with super tight chokes designed to pattern effectively with #8 shot.

A baseball has quite a bit more mass and sectional density than a balloon Geo. The point jOe was making was about kinetic energy, and the fact that a lead #4 or even #7 shot pellet weighs more than ##9 TSS pellet. Certainly, the denser TSS sphere will retain velocity better, but the comparison is nothing like comparing retained velocity of a baseball vs. a balloon.

Tell us the kinetic energy of a 1.2 gr. TSS shot pellet hitting a turkey at 30 yards and the kinetic energy of a 3.3 gr. #4 lead pellet at the same range and the same starting muzzle velocity. The real advantage of the TSS appears to be velocity retention and mostly pattern density. We have seen evidence that #9 TSS will certainly kill a turkey, and so will #4 lead shot. You could also kill a turkey with a single fastball to the head. But you could throw a thousand balloons at the turkey without knocking a single feather loose. Nice try.

Pellets slow down in flight, due to friction with the air. Denser pellets retain speed better. So, the denser pellet will be traveling faster downrange than the less dense pellet, given the same muzzle velocity. That is why lead kills farther from the gun than steel, and why tungsten kills farther than lead.

I don't sell tungsten and I don't care if anyone buys it.

Another property of tungsten vs. lead is its hardness which makes it suitable for use is in small sizes that wouldn't be considered in lead. Put a lead shot on an anvil and hit with a hammer. It deforms and doesn't spring back. Do the same with a tungsten shot. I don't know if it deforms temporarily, but it doesn't deform permanently. I've seen the largest wingbone on a gobbler shattered by a #9 tungsten super shot at 35 yards. I've seen complete pass throughs of turkey bodies with #9 TSS shot at distances under 40 yards. Density and hardness were the reasons solid tungsten rods were used in non-explosive sabot rounds to penetrate tank armor before depleted uranium was used. The hardness of TSS is one reason it patterns tightly even without buffer. I have purposely omitted buffer in some loads because of the extreme pattern tightness. Gil

Is that a new term you thought up ?

Here is a screen shot of calculations for #4 Chilled Lead shot at 1100 fps muzzle velocity with the maximum distance for penetration of not less than 1.5" into ballistic gel.
Calculations are in the lower right hand corner above the calculate button.

Here are the results of #9 TSS. Note the material drop down menu is in display mode listing the types of shot the program can analyze. Gil

Gil I think you have gone nuts.


I am not shooting 1100 fps....and I am not shooting #4 chilled shot at ballistic jell.


I'm shooting 1200 fps with Copperplated #4 lead shot encapsulated in some type of liquid buffer that hardens around the shot.

A turkey is a thin skinned bird that's easy to kill if you hit them in the head or neck. A turkeys bones are light weight because they were made for flight....doesn't take much in the way of a pellet to break a turkeys bones.

Read and reread the above sentence if you need to "thin skinned bird that's easy to kill".


That is why idiots can kill them with #9 fairly dust sized shot.


I do not like a bunch of shot in my hard earned meat.

RelAx....go out this morning and shoot a pattern with your TSS pixie dust sized shot send it to your buddies and ya'll can sit around the computor and have a circle jerk while counting your 500 pellets in a 10" circle.


You are wasting your time trying to prove this nonsense to me.


Your time would be better spent banging that harder than TSS head of yours against a tree.

>>>A turkey is a thin skinned bird that's easy to kill if you hit them in the head or neck. A turkeys bones are light weight because they were made for flight....doesn't take much in the way of a pellet to break a turkeys bones.<<<

jOe, I am glad that you understand this now. We tried to explain it to you 15 years ago, but I didn't think you ever understood our argument.

It doesn't make any difference how much a pellet weighs, or even how much energy it carries. The only that matters is that the pellet is able to penetrate the head and neck bones at a reasonable hunting range, and years of shooting tss #9 has proven that it most certainly will do that. The smaller the pellet is, the more you can get into the shell and that makes it possible to produce denser patterns that are sure to hit bones if you are aiming your gun at the head/neck of the turkey.

I hunted them for years with #4 lead and there is no doubt in the world that those pellets would crush the bones of a turkey. The issue with them is there aren't nearly as many pellets as in the #9 tss, and that means that if your aim is a little off and only the edge of the pattern hits the turkey, it's very possible that none of the pellets actually hits a bone, and the turkey runs or flys away with shot in him. I remember that you posted on another forum that you had a season when you shot at 13 gobblers and killed only 7 of them. Any experienced turkey hunter knows that you didn't likely "miss" the 6 that got away; they all left there with shot in them. Some probably recovered, some probably didn't. There is a lot less chance of that happening with tss, though l think many hunters take away the real advantage of tss by setting their guns up with chokes that are too tight.

So the only real legitimate concern about shooting turkeys with tss is that it's possible to put a lot more pellets into the meat. I think an experienced hunter can eliminate this by shooting the turkey when he is in the right posture, and just making sure that you aim properly. It is about 16" from the top of a mature gobbler's head to the base of his neck. Here is a picture of a tss pattern I have handy, and it was shot with a 20 gauge gun with only a modified choke at 40 yards. This was when I was experimenting with a sxs gun and it shows the typical effect with a turkey load of the right barrel shooting to the right. That is a 10" circle drawn around the core of the pattern, so anyone can do the math and see that there is no reason to put shot into the breast if you are a decent shot. As you well know, the most important thing in making a clean kill is to have the turkey standing up straight with his head and neck exposed when you pull the trigger.




I wouldn't try to claim that I have never put any tss into a turkey breast, but I can honestly say that it has happened no more often with tss than it did with lead. If one is really concerned about it, I would suggest trying #7 tss. There are a lot fewer pellets than the #9 has, but it still has more than a #4 lead load. I have shot them with tss size 7, 8, 8.5, 9, 9.5 and even shot a couple with 10s. My conclusion is that it doesn't make much difference; any of them will kill the turkey if you have the gun on him.

I wouldn't expect you to want to change after a lifetime of using #4 lead. I once killed 22 in a row with my SBE and Winchester Supremes #4. The biggest advantage of the tss for me is that I can carry a very light 20 gauge gun and it has way less recoil than the 12, and is every bit as effective. Good luck in your hunting.

IIRC, Mr. Zutz used #6 to hunt grouse without a dog because #7 was not available and #7.5 was inadequate. He did quite a rant in "Handloading For Hunters" about the rise of #7.5 and the fall of #7. Either way, he preferred shot larger than #9.

Coosa I've understood it from the git go...I'm a good a shot as most...maybe even better than a few but not many people are Annie Oakley.

(By the way that little swarm of pixie dust sized shot n the picture looks to be way off....)

One thing I do know is I talk personally almost weekly with turkey hunters from all over the country with varying degrees of skill....hardly a month goes by that someone new calls me and talks turkey hunting, calling and turkey guns.

Most know how I feel about people that shoot that small shot...most won't admit they fell for the fA iry dust until they realize it was all bull.
A few I even blocked their numbers because they sent me a picture of a Turkey they shot with a .410 loaded with tss pixie dust size #9 shot....life is too short to waste time on idiots.

Most have to learn on their own the hard way....(some might never learn).

Once they figure out they been had then the hOrror stories start to flow....

Blown off wings....meat shot to hell and back....I knocked him down chased him and shot him two more times knocked him down each time and I never got him....teeth cracked on TSs #9 pixie dust size shot...last year a guy blew a hole in the turkeys body next to his wing lucky his second shot finished him off. The picture looked bad....more than a few have killed turkeys that had TSs #9s in the meat

Truth is I don't feel I need a hummingbird proof pattern to kill a turkey and I don't need that much shot to kill a turkey.

keep it up jOe...cum on here an kill off dim turkey varmints, sos mebbe de grouses will cum back...

an while you at hit...we could do wid ah lot less o dim hiker types from massataxus, as well...ware yo turkey huntin costume...an maybe jes scare erm enough dat day will run back down to thu peoples republic...an leave us alone...

Coosa you and Gil don't be skeered by them #4 size holes....why would I need to shoot a turkey with a #9 size pellet.

I know you guys like to use the ol'heavy gun argument....If it gets where you can't tote a 7 or 8 lb 12 gauge gun might be time to stay on the pOrch.

jOe, I said in my post that the pattern was off; it was the first shot I fired using a tss load in that 20 gauge sxs. It was a challenge to get it to shoot both barrels to the same POA, but I finally managed it. The point I was trying to make is that there is no reason to put shot into the breast if you know what you are doing.

I didn't like the idea of such small shot as #9 either when we first started handloading it 15 years ago. I started with #8 in a 12 gauge gun. A tss pellet that is #8 by diameter weighs what a size 6.4 would in lead. I have killed a good many turkeys with #6 lead, so I felt like #8 tss would work. It actually worked much better than I ever expected, and I eventually realized it was overkill and went to a 20 gauge. I still used #8 for a while, but so many folks were having success with #9 that I decided to try them. I had great results with them, but as I said in the other post, I don't think it really matters. The edge of the pattern is denser with #9, giving me a little more room for aiming error, but the advantage is very minor over size 8 or even 7.

If you go to a larger size than 7, you get fewer pellets in the load and you might as well use lead if we are talking about turkeys. As you said, doesn't take much to break a turkey's head or neck.

Well, I am not far from needing to stay on the porch. I got my AL 5 bird limit this past spring, but next year they are starting the season later and cutting the limit to 4. I don't think it will be long before they cut it to 2, and then one. There are more turkeys on the places I hunt than ever, but the government is not gonna let us continue to hunt them like they have during my lifetime. It looks like I picked a good time to get old.

I'd hate to go out on the porch with my last memories of shooting a cheap made childs gun stuffed with #9 magic pixie dust....

That is almost as bad as having turkey shooting memories of shooting turkey out of an enclosed blind with decoys sitting out front thinking you're a turkey hunter.

Coosa sounds like you missed the weight specks of the TSS versus LEAD SHOT that I posted....

You do know that at ranges of 15 to 30 or 35 yards you could do the same thing with 7 lead shot for a lot less money.....

A #7 lead pellet weighs more than a #9 TSS....that is just a fact that TSS promoters go nutts over when questioned about it.....density it's all about density....

Gil even made up a new imaginary thing called
"energy density".

Here's a link to a chart that shows the number of pellets per ounce of shot of various material:

http://www.tungstensupershots.com/viewtopic.php?t=7

This chart shows 254 pellets in an ounce of #8 tss, while there are 222 in an ounce of #6 lead. Lead #7 has 295. I don't see an issue with my statement that #8 tss is about the same weight as a 6.4 lead pellet.

My memories of the past turkey season are all good; I fired 5 shots and killed 5 turkeys. All of them were instantly dead. Can't ask for more than that from your equipment. If this turns out to be my last gobbler, I've still had a blessed life. My turkey gun was not very expensive, but I don't think it could be called a child's toy. Best of luck to all the turkey hunters on here.

Hey all, this thread reminded me of a guy who used to, or still does have an Outdoors Program. His name is Wayne Pearson and he claimed that he shot Pheasants using a .410 and #9 shot. Okay, sure! Anyway, the kicker with this story is rather "interesting". He claimed that he had an individual reload these killer shells for him. Okay, fine. But according to Wayne, the guy would individually pound/shape each shot into the shape of a football to make them more effective.

I guess that guy had a lot of time on his hands!

Just my contribution to this thread.

Best,

Greg

But according to Wayne, the guy would individually pound/shape each shot into the shape of a football to make them more effective.

Laces up????