My W&C. Webley& Scott have this concealed cross bolt system. I have tried to find the name with no success.

Can you tell me the system name?

I think its called the "Greener" cross bolt which was used by several manufacturers. My Baikal IZH54 SxS has one.

Now I come to look more closely I see that its a concealed bolt as you explained and in that case the Greener type is probably incorrect.

It is still the same mechanism as a standard Greener bolt. The left side of bolt is cut off short and the hole through which it was installed is filled with a metal plug.

Thanks for your words, but is not the Greener cross bolt system. There's no filled hole on the left fence (side) as you can see.

A concealed or hidden 3rd(third) fastener typically denotes an upper rung or higher echelon offering.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Always superb info here:

http://www.hallowellco.com/concealed_third_fastener.htm

Now you didn't post an image of the breech so I assume it is the longer Greener(circular) extension

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I have previously owned a Thomas Wild hammer gun with this feature. Looking at my Webley & Scott book it does seem to feature in a number of their guns from the hammer gun era and beyond. Not all that common on other guns from what I see. Lagopus…..

If memory serves me correct, some Lindner-Daly A&D Body actions(like Diamond Quality, etc.) had the square version of the Greener.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...r--condition-.cfm?gun_id=100884532#lg-12

I couldn't tell for sure but further on the pics there is the square crossbolt.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/53191-2-402/

They really don't show a pic, but describe the offering as having an accessory of a >>hidden square crossbolt third fastener<< in the text.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks again, Raimey, Lagopus!

I saw the hallowellco.com info, but this gun is diferent.

Hope this pictures can help.

I've always wondered the purpose of the small >>set screw<< in the upper corner of the left side of the standing breech and if it was for retaining something; something like a plug?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Honestly, I don't know the function of the screw.

Are you sure there isn't a plug hidden under that circular engraving on the left fence/ball?

There’s a plug there, it’s just hidden well. The set screw in the breech face retains it. There is no other way for the cross bolt to be installed.

Thanks again!

It's seems but I don't think so.




This is not a complet circle.

Incidentally, here you can see the rail for oiling the ejectors.

Two pieces of steel can be peened together to be absolutely invisible if the steel is of similar type. Filed over, sanded over, engraved over, finished over, it's only time and effort.

The plug is there. It's not magic! The metal is closely fitted, probably peened a bit, and filed. Then sanded and polished. The engraving helps hide it too. And yes, it is retained by that set screw in the standing breech.

Ok, thank you!

Here's an Ferlach proofed sxs with a square concealed cross bolt. Sorry for the poor pictures.

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ub...p;Words=ogris&Search=true#Post273593

Thanks!

Beautiful shotgun! I like a lot german guns and have a Bernhard Merkel Suhl, but the cross bolt is not concealed.

There’s a pin in this knife bolster too and it doesn’t have engraving to help hide it. I know it’s there because 1) I watched Tony put it together and 2) the blade opens and closes.

Italian gun, featuring a hidden bolt. It was advertised as having that feature. No screw to retain it, not visible from outside the gun.





The actual catalog parts list from the gun does not show a cover for the hidden fastener being available for sale, much less actually being there. They do list the cover for the hinge pin, 35 cents got you a new one if the need arose.



I’ve looked with a 10X loupe, can’t see anything that demonstrates there is a hole in the left side to put the pin in.



Best,
Ted

Thanks for the info and the pictures, Ted!

Is the first time I read Richland trademark, despite in some webs tell that the company imported a variety of Spanish-made shotguns.

Engraving fence is similar to my shotgun.

Regards!

Prandelli and Gasperini was the builder, Richland imported the guns to the US. The Spanish guns that I have handled by the same importer are very poorly made, the Italian versions, more expensive in all cases, per the catalog, are decent guns, both the SXS and O/U versions.

I’m not saying there isn’t a cap on the left side, but, looking at the catalog, and studying the gun, I can’t find it if it is there. The lack of a screw from the front seems to throw cold water on the notion it is there, as well.

Best,
Ted

How would you get it in there if there is no hole?

Interference fit, tapered plug, polished off.

The light at the end of the tunnel.

The cross bolt doesn't have to be very long and there could be a milled slot in the frame to slide it in and the top lever would hold it .its magic or aliens that's my guess

Ted, Richland company would import shotguns manufactured by Zabala Hermanos. Of all the national gun industry, they made the simplest and cheapest shotguns. If someone wanted a side by side for hunting, they could have it at a very low price. Besides, Spanish SxS shotgun market had and have well made and resistant guns up to the best shotguns at lower prices than in other countries. That is why so many Spanish shotguns have been imported from other countries.

Back to the thread, the system of my shotgun and yours isn't Greener cross bolt. It has no name?

Actually, Richland Imported arms built by several different Italian and several different Spanish makers. I have observed that the Italian guns are uniformly good quality, and the Spanish guns were built to a lower price point. The Spaniards didn’t pick the price point, they simply supplied a gun to fulfill it.

Crummy guns, sadly. The truth hurts sometimes.

In the Richland catalog I have, period to the year of the gun, the fastener is referred to as a “Hidden Fourth fastener”. This provides an excellent example of the notion that you should take ad copy from a gunmakers catalog with a grain of salt, as there are not four fasteners on this gun. It would seem that the copy writers of most technical products, get things wrong occasionally, in their writing.

As to the actual, trade excepted name, that fits this type of bolting, I haven’t a clue. “Hidden Greener bolt” would seem to fit all the parameters, and differentiate between a visible Greener bolt, while giving credit as to who came up with a bolt through an extension of the barrels, at the top, with the familiar activation by the lever work.

That’s all I’ve got. I still can’t tell you with good certainty if there is a cap over the hole in the left side of the detonation of my gun, or, not.

Best,
Ted

I’ve got a gun as you describe. It’s a very old Stephen Grant SLE. It has a round cross-bolt that does not stick out the left side fence but does go through a superiorly placed top rib extension that has a round hole to accept the cross-bolt. There is a plug there on the left lateral/superior fence, however, that I can detect. There is also a very small screw on the left breech face, again lateral and somewhat superior (i wonder if the screw goes in a slot in the cross-bolt to keep the bolt aligned, or is it for dismantling the cross-bolt….I have no idea??). I don’t think this is called a ‘concealed’ extension per se, though. In my books, that’s what they call a Purdey 3rd bite which is completely hidden (i.e, Burrard). I’ve looked in all my books and find no mention of what we have. I’m thinking it is unamed, but don’t know for sure?? Maybe our English gunsmith friends will pipe in and enlighten us?

I always like to refer to the Purdey hidden fastener, the version centered between the firing pins as a “Purdey nose”, just to see the reactions in the room.

When well fitted, it was a clever idea.

Best,
Ted

I too would say >>concealed / hidden 3rd fastener<< or maybe a >>hidden Greener Crossbolt<< variant. I fancy the term >>Purdey Nose<< as well as >>Galand Nose<< or „Fermeture Liègeoise“. All these terms should net some info upon a search with our little database.



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>Triple(Verrou) Fermeture Syst�me Greener

Triple(Verrou) Fermeture Syst�me Purdey

Triple fermeture � h�lice tres robuste

etc.

But what I am looking for is a diagram of:

Triple(Verrou) Fermeture Syst�me Li�geoise or Fermeture Li�geoise<<

Some of our terms / letters / characters were bastardized on this recent thread:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...rds=Fermeture&Search=true#Post570380

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I hate the Greener cross bolt. I don't think it is necessary on a shotgun. That being said I will agree that is a very strong lock up, best used on rifles. My problem with it is most are pretty sharp and pointed and if you had a mishap with an open gun you could be cut or gouged by that bolt sticking out. It will draw blood! It cold also be damaged with an open gun fall and could raise a burr that could prevent the gun from closing all the way. The hidden one that you guys are discussing here is infinitely more desirable to me. But a nice high end Francotte with a Greener cross bolt would not be a deal breaker to me. You have to make some exceptions sometimes!

You must have fascinating nightmares.

Never have seen one that was pointed.

Not saying it didn’t happen. Betting not, however.


Best,
Ted

The way they are machined around the fence so they fit flush leaves a wedge shape. I didn't get my opinion from pictures, it comes from handling them. And since I worked with steel my hole life I know what can happen. I have seen some that where rounded where they protrude so those are not a problem.

Interesting comments generated by this thread. A locking system... necessary or not, I think is another interesting thread!

PD: There must be a lot of information in this forum about it, I supose.

Iv got this kind of nose protruding from the barrels on a 112 Bernardelli....it fits into a corresponding channel in the breech face....but has no locking mechanism to add to the double purdey unerbites to lock the action closed....more or less just to reduce any side to side movement...??...like sideclips..?

Also have a Sarasqueta with the same nose....but it also has a bar that locks on its top when the action is closed did bernardelli just cheap out on this....??..

I'd say so.... Can you pleasure us with a pic sometime?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

That „Fermeture Liègeoise“, or similar, crops up from time to time on ware retailed by J. Novotný, retailer of the House of 1000 guns.



Maybe I should make just a >>Nose<< thread?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Maybe they forgot to put the bolt in (Friday gun, Monday gun, too much Ouzo gun) when it was assembled? Might be good to have a look at the works and see if it was fitted for a bolt like that.

Best,
Ted

I guess I should have paired the „Fermeture Liègeoise“ - >>Galand Nose<< with the locking bar in the Standing Breech??





[

Serbus,


Raimey
rse

I wish the cross bolts on my Merkel side by sides were hidden in this fashion. They protrude and man are they sharp. One bloody right earlobe quickly teaches you to carry broken over the left shoulder instead of the right!

Beautiful gun, Raimey.

May be the answer of my question is in The British Boxlock Gun & Rifle, by Diggory Hadoke. He wrote about this:

Could be, could be. Great find.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

My Greener Imperial has a hidden crossbolt utilizing a plug held in place by a screw/pin on the breach face.

What type action is the Imperial?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I also have a Greener Imperial. It is a small frame 16 gauge, Whitworth barrels, on the Monarch frame , with Baker ejectors as I recall. It has a round crossbolt with a "hidden" bolt channel on the left lump, with a plug held in place with a small screw in the standing breech. The plug seems invisible unless you look very hard, knowing it was there.

You got any pictures of that? Sounds right up my alley

jsayers1, you can email me. My email is in my profile.