Just lost a huge thread to this !@#$#%^&!!! system (got to remember to take my own advice about saving regularly). Had an interesting situation develop in this last large family reunion I attended with my wife & son in eastern North Carolina. At least two of the young men in attendance there were seriously dedicated outdoorsmen. Considering where they live (the Virginia/Washington, DC metroplex) that is a very hard thing to achieve and then maintain. I was fascinated with their intensity and interest in fishing this man-made warm-water reservoir the reunion compound was located on. I had facilitated their pursuits somewhat by adding a pontoon boat to the rental for the week and they were using almost every waking minute to pursue the local fauna (in this case fish, and by my estimation, nothing very special). We discussed the usual subjects associated with the activity (tackle, tactics, bait, etc.) and then I raised the question about what type of hunting they pursued. Their answers somewhat floored me. The net, net of that conversation was this....what I've always taken for granted about my hunting activities they have to almost fight for. The planning, the scheming, the sacrifices and economic liabilities that they have to overcome to just hunt a doe whitetail is daunting to the point of unreasonable. Yet... they pursue it with a fervor (almost religious!) that I probably could have never mustered. The world has clearly changed dramatically since I hit the ground here in the late 1950s. Rural areas have shrunken dramatically and hunt-able game populations arguably don't even exist in many (if not most) of the now vast metroplexes on either coast. Yet here these young men are, desperately pursuing these time-honored traditions. Where does that come from? What drives them to go to those lengths to just have a few scant hours of time afield? Now...both of these young men either come from military families or are active military themselves so "the warrior ethic" is very familiar. One is active Marine Corp reserve, the other is an EMT. Both are early in their careers (and family life) and are just scraping by. After much consideration (& feeling very-much like a glutton that needed to do something decently generous), I have invited both to come out west to see what big game hunting is like out here (arguably before it is too-late to do so, for a number of reasons). Neither will be able to afford out-of-state tags (now $600 for a cow elk tag here in Colorado) so they'll be largely acting as Sherpas, but both jumped at the chance like I'd just offered a painfree trip to Valhalla. What says the cognoscenti here on the subject? Where does this visceral drive to hunt come from?

Don’t know how young but teenage boys and young men have an almost infinite ability to focus when something catches them. Could be a sport, could be learning, could be anything. But when their passion for something is lit, the rest of the world is only their to support them. Lol. It’s fun to watch.

I saw one of my nephews go from never having held a golf club to the US Junior in three years. And he lived in Winnipeg at the time. All courses closed from early October to mid May.

Kudos to you sir.

Where the drive to hunt comes from is different from one hunter to the next, but with mentors like you it won’t easily be snuffed out.

That drive is passed on from the male members of a family to the next generation, starting at teen years-still traces of Robert Ruark's "The Old Man and The Boy" and Corey Ford's Lower 40 are extant today, in this goofy age of transsex crap, high tech computer based gizmos, whatever. Son-in-law and long time hunting pal have been taking my namesake oldest grandson (16) out summer nights for woodchucks- he loves it, and is saving for his first high-power BA rifle-- important thing is, strict gun safety-- so, there is hope. RWTF

The perspective of an evolutionary biologist (please note that the website substitutes [censored] for the genus name of modern humans and our immediate ancestors):

The evolution of hunting skills and meat eating was the single most important development in human evolution. Access to the large quantities of protein and fat in meat (compared to the largely vegetarian diet of our pre-hunting predecessors) allowed the growth and elaboration of our energy-hungry brain, and that in turn led to increasing ability to communicate, plan, and coordinate complex activities, e.g. hunting and dealings with the other group of [censored] erectus on the far side of the valley.

I am convinced that the first great leap in this process was the development of the ability to throw stones hard and accurately: all of a sudden, we could drive lions, hyenas, and leopards off their kills without getting up close and personal, where a glorified monkey stands no chance. This led to a stage of our evolution where we got most of our meat largely through scavenging from real predators, but stone-throwing also made small game vulnerable, and eventually led to the development of spears to kill larger game.

Because of the profound importance of hunting up until the development of farming and livestock domestication say 12,000 years ago (less than 0.5% of our history as the genus [censored]), the urge to hunt is rooted at least three million years back in our genome, and many of us males are still firmly in the sway of those ancient genes.

Like sex and the propagation of the species, , there’s a pleasure seeking aspect to it.

It’s a basic drive.

CZ: I know it is for me, and LGF is spot on about the almost-genetic pull of it. But....such activities are considered largely anachronistic and even cruel by vast swaths of the general population these days. My own son is interested but.... if it wasn't convenient (caused mostly by yours truly funding and then planning for it almost year-round now) it probably wouldn't happen for him. I have always maintained that you had to have come from a hunting family (or at least a hunting culture) to continue to pursue it throughout your lifetime. Neither of these two young men come from either that I know of. I'm perplexed, pleasantly so, but still a bit surprised by it.

Again the Meat Eater comes through,this time with a good documentary on this very question.

Stars in the Sky on Netflix

Well stated LGF. I'm with the anthropologists that believe bipedalism (the erectus part) and use of tools like spears let man move into the world's grasslands, the greatest source of meat protein. I don't believe it is mere coincidence that CO2 levels began their slow rise about 7000 years ago, 5000 years after deglaciation, as newer tools allowed agriculture and the domestication of animals. Between the two, the carbon stored in the soil by the deep fibrous roots of the grasses began to be used to raise annual crops and animals. Much of the Middle East was once grassland ('milk and honey" come to mind). Forest soils contain little carbon. Have no data, but I believe much or possibly even more of the recent increase in atmospheric CO2 can be attributed to the conversion of most of the grasslands in the Western Hemisphere with new mechanical tools powered by other carbon-rich substances.

So if we are going to try and reduce CO2 in our atmosphere, we should be planting perennial grasses on existing cropland rather than trees on poor forest soils. Management? Prescribed burning and and grazing of course. Then all we have to do is keep from starving!

Hal, I agree 100% and wish there were more emphasis on restoring grasslands and their soils. It is not only the western hemisphere. I work in East Africa, where truly vast regions of former grassland have been turned into rock desert by overgrazing just in the last century. As you say, the same is true of the Mediterranean and Middle East, but there it happened much longer ago, and I would guess that central Asia has also been desertified by livestock. Plus our Southwest and much of Mexico, and probably large chunks of Australia in the last few centuries.

It's in their genes.

I think the urge to hunt is more of a primal instinct.

The strength of the urge is also dependent upon the game.



Image posted from my cell phone.... for those who continue to say it isn't possible.

Interesting question! I have two brothers, one older and one younger. We grew up in a hunting household and a small community where hunting was a big part of the culture, big game predominately. My older brother rarely hunted big game but did hunt waterfowl and forest grouse and as he got older he gave up hunting altogether. My younger brother hunted, again, predominately waterfowl and forest grouse, but as he's gotten older he still hunts waterfowl and uplands but has become more involved with big game hunting, mainly deer. Myself, I hunt about everything available and when young, it was always a conundrum for me, which to hunt elk or waterfowl, since they opened up on the same day. I still hunt as often as I'm able and will as long as I am physically able, waterfowl, upland birds and big game and since turkeys were planted in our area and have thrived, I've added that to the list.

I have nephews, who's dad was not a hunter, but they've always been interested in hunting and some who are not interested at all in hunting. Same with my son. I used to take him out hunting regularly when I lived in AK for ptarmigan on a snogo, but as he got older he lost interest completely and doesn't hunt now.

I've often thought about our differences (my brothers and I) in our attitude toward hunting, where we all grew up in the same household, had the same opportunities to hunt, yet, I was the only one that was and am still somewhat fanatical about it, although a bit less so than when I was younger. I don't really have an answer concerning the urge to hunt. I suppose it's an innate urge that's stronger in some, than others.

Same nature vs. nurture argument mankind has always had. Some folks have the urge to hunt some don't. The answer to the question posed in this thread is that both matter. Nurture can overcome nature or nature might overcome nurture. I was from a non hunting family but had a hunting Grandfather and Uncle I idolized because they were hunters. I've been a bloodthirsty throwback all my life...Geo

The urge to hunt is not a fixed trait. There are those who lust to kill anything that moves from early age to death. Some start out blood-thirsty but evolve to hunt selectivley or not at all as they age. The only thing I recall ed saying that I agreed with some years ago was that he couldn't see shooting a dove. I still enjoy hunting but associate it with food gathering more that "sport". That wasn't always the case. Almost all the men in my family were hunters,though most were southerners and bird hunters. I grew up wanting to incoporate all their hunting interests. Perhaps I managed that for a while. I tend to agree with Aldo Leopold that what we killed without thinking when we were young was a mistake hard to atone for. Nowadays the idea of "varmint" hunting seems wrong. We have made varmints of ourselves, not by intention, but by our very success. It remains to be seen if we have the wisdom to recitify that error. I hope we do and believe it's still possible.

Years from now, old timers will be sipping keto friendly cocktails and saying, I'm a throwback to the emasculation awakening, had a warm beer once when I was young-n-dumb.

I also came from, not an non-hunting, but an actively anti-hunting family. The writing appeared on the wall when I became an enthusiastic young naturalist at age 11 and lived for my weekend small mammal trapping expeditions, which resulted in properly prepared scientific specimens. I went completely over to the dark side when employed by the Fish and Wildlife Service in the Aleutians one summer, trapping and shooting introduced Arctic foxes, which had decimated waterfowl and seabird populations and were being eliminated in order to restore the Aleutian Canada goose, which the foxes had eaten to near extinction. In spite of that introduction to hunting, which has preoccupied me ever since, I abhor predator and prairie dog killing as pointless destruction. It is my duty as an ecologist, however, to maintain the balance of nature by spending the winter in a duck blind.

Bill, I don't have much optimism about the human race recifying our errors. A small fraction is aware of what we have done to nature, but the overwhelming majority couldn't care less. It is even worse in the developing world, where wildlife is just about gone, and awareness and concern hover at about zero.

There is a podcast on Youtube called GRIDLESSNESS, about a Canadian family that moved "off-grid". Father, mother, and about 5 girls ranging from about ten to seventeen. Those young girls put an urban-suburban boy to shame in skills they have acquired. Not that a boy similarly raised wouldn't compete quite well. Those kids hunt, fishing, raise farm animals, weld, do construction and help their parents a lot. They all seem very happy doing it too. It makes one think that what they are doing has tremendous value. Oh, they get a lot of flak for their hunting and fishing from the inept and clueless, but they know better. I think if you take any kid, early enough, and teach him or her the skills and show them the opportunities they'll revert back to something the Greta Thunbergs of the world would run from like a scalded cat, and perhaps make the world better.

Like many, I suppose, I hunt for many reasons, but a major part of it now is for the unique foodstuffs that it brings to my larder and table. I have, accordingly, narrowed my efforts to maximize for the best table fare species and focus mostly on them. I'd like to think that I never killed wantonly, but I'm fairly sure I'm not perfect in that regard. Our traditions of fair-chase public hunting and large conservation efforts (Pittman-Robertson, Ducks Unlimited, etc., comes to mind) in this great county have endlessly blessed me and my forefathers. I hope those traditions continue for my son and following generations but... it seems that we are coming to a crossroads on that subject. I too hear that in the rest of the world, those opportunities are either going or are largely gone. I dearly hope that we don't go down that road here as well. It has been a birthright that I have so enjoyed. To lose that would most-surely deeply alter our understanding of one's personal freedom and liberty.

FallCreekFan: I wanted you to know that while I am slow, I do eventually get there. I found and watched Steven Rinella's "Stars in the Sky: A Hunting Story" on Netflix tonight. Made in 2018, it's probably the first time I've ever seen (or heard) this subject adequately discussed. Mr. Rinella does a very good job here, well worth seeing this one.

I may just give that tv show a look.

I’ve known for myself that it’s never been about the food, that’s what grocery stores are for. I for most just like being there, and will gladly line up someone else to take a shot or have the good fishing position. I pull the trigger secondarily a little for the thrill and maybe the trophy. And by trophy, I just mean to me and not necessarily in any one else’s eyes.

No doubt, whatever name it goes by, varmint hunting just brings too much pleasure for me to pass up. I also have little doubt that many of these critters are pests that’re not welcomed by ranchers and farmers, in some areas, and there’s no doubt in my mind that many of these critters directly threaten nesting waterfowl and upland birds. My game spotting ability really gets sharpened on varmints, just a few weeks ago I leveled off on a beady little eye that was looking back at me that turned out to be a Hun, in short supply for a few years and maybe coming back, we’ll see.

I have loved to hunt for as long as I can remember, still do but the focus on the kill has lessened with time. I love putting time in during the pursuit and seeing the amazing things our natural world has to offer. I hunt as much as I can from September through January and pretty well feed myself on wild meat. I buy bacon and lunchmeat at the store but otherwise it is Venison and wild birds as my main source of protien. I will hunt as long as I am able and the dogs and I put miles in everyday on the trail in an effort to say at it as long as possible. As for the decline in the interest in hunting, it may have begun a long time ago.

I like most of Steve Rinella’s shows, but I had to laugh at one episode of duck hunting where he lamented about being unable to connect because he’d lost his front bead!!!

For the last five years I have been taking kids dove hunting in my fields. To be accurate I try to take fathers and sons but a few have not had a father willing or interested in going. One mom came with her son and this year is returning with her daughter. Son will be with one of my sons on another peg. Not talking big numbers but everyone has had a positive experience and all but on have returned once or more. For many I think the urge to hunt first needs the opportunity to hunt and a mentor. I’ve got a place, can provide all the gear and will try to include other family members in the experience. All they need is interest to try it.

We started out as either hunters or gatherers. Did the hunters evolve toward domestication of animals and the gatherers toward agriculturalists? Even though hunters killed off the large Pleistocene mammals in many areas, I believe the agriculturalists have caused far more environmental harm and loss of species diversity by deforestation, wetland drainage, impounding water, and turning the grassland sod upside down than have the hunters (trappers and fishermen included).

Well, I guess I'm a double damage doer ............ a hunter and an "agriculturist".

But really, when people start bashing agriculture, they shouldn't talk with their mouths full. How about all the urban development that has taken millions of acres out of the pristine pre-humo-sapien environment. Guess that's okay, since you didn't mention it.

Makes me want to vomit with all the urban sprawl. I’m afraid the Chinese will be taking over soon, especially with this clown for a President, and then what?

I think we were both hunters and gatherers for the great bulk of human and pre-human history and we certainly eradicated all the large mammals (and huge birds) from most of the world - Africa was the exception because the gradual evolution of human hunting gave that fauna time to evolve antipredator behavior towards human hunting. Subsequent to those extinctions, I don't think that agriculture per se was responsible for environmental devastation - that has been due to the immense increase in human numbers that agriculture, domestic livestock, and much more recently, medicine, has made possible. The earth would be in fine shape if there were perhaps one billion people; with eight billion, we and our children are witnessing the eradication of a vast number of species and the destruction of most ecosystems. All environmental problems are the result of too many people.

War and/or disease will soon keep the huge population in check, I’m sadly betting….

It’s my heart not my stomach that drive me to get up at 4:00 AM. I love eating quail but it’s the excitement of hunting with my dogs with a nice gun that fires me up.
When I open the back door at that time of day the dogs already know we are going hunting. It’s the rhythmic tap of their tails against the side of the dog box letting me know how excited they are to be going hunting.
It’s the whine and pawing at the doors as all 3 or 4 dogs dogs all shake with excitement wanting to be the first on the ground.
It’s the knowledge they have of knowing the tracking collar needs to go on before the hunt and with the strapping it on their excitement knowing the game is about to begin.
It’s the tweet on the whistle and at the sound launching like a horse from the starting gate out into the hills.
It’s the amazement again as I watch them cut into the wind making wide casts across the oak covered hill sides. Watching as they cover 100’s of yards in mear seconds.
Watching as at one moment they are on a dead run the next moment slamming on the brakes to become staunch as a statue.
It’s the walking up to that dog and observing it with its head held high and it’s mouth slightly open pulling the scent through its nose and out its mouth tasting the scent of the birds.
It’s that few seconds when you push ahead flushing the covey. The sound of the birds with their distinct TWURRRRRRRR as they rise up screaming through the opening in the oak trees.
It’s your heart racing and the adrenaline pumping that although you know it’s about to come always makes you jump just a little as you are flooded with excitement.
It’s the memory you will carry of the sight picture you capture as you swing on the bird and the at the report the dropping of a bird and with feathers still in the air. That secondary flush that seems to come many times yet still catches you by surprise and seems to jump start your heart once more.
Finally it’s your special hunting partner racing past you to make the retrieve. With her locating the bird many times out of sight for a moment, then the reappearance with the bird held in her mouth as she brings it to you.
Then as quickly as you put the bird in your vest she launches out back to business and refocused on finding that next bird.

Very well put, Ghostrider. May I add to that the look on your retriever's face as he sits beside you, scanning the sky for doves, and how the expression changes as one approaches, in anticipation of a possible retrieve.

rmb and ed notwithstanding, I have found nothing in shotgunning that tops the thrill and satisfaction of executing a planned double on incoming doves, when you kill the first one with the tight barrel so far out there that you can kill the second with the more open barrel and both hit the ground in front of you. Until you've done that it is hard to explain how far out the first one must be when you hit the rear trigger. Neither have I found, for that matter, many things that I enjoy on the table more than well prepared dove.

Only thing that can top that thrill Stan is running down the river with my Grand pappy in his race boat shooting doves as they rose from the sand bars....nothing like turning round the bend boat almost touching the shore at 100 mph and shooting two doves with my .410 without letting off the throttle. (sometimes we were going so fast we ground swatted them before they could get off the ground).


After a few cold beers there's nothing thing like doves wrapped in bacon on a grill....eat the bacon throw the dove away.

Didn't really mean to bash agriculture. It is the main reason our species dominates Earth. Just that tillage to raise (mostly) annual crops has caused far more environmental damage then grazing or subsistence hunting or fishing. The land area affected certainly is many times greater than that used for habitations, roads, or other such developments. Besides, much of that development is on soils or terrain unsuitable for agriculture. Kind of interesting that when my eight ancestors came here, five listed their occupations as farmers and three as hunters.

Staying a little on topic with this... The only family members I had that hunted where my grandfather from my mom's side. On my dad's side it was his grandfather and all his family from his moms side but he never hunted a thing. All were dead and gone by the time I was old enough to handle a gun, so no family hunting experience for me to get me into it when I was younger. I got lucky in my late 20's and a fellow I used to work with offered to take me bird hunting over his dogs after we became friends and fished for a season. Man that was fun, so I took it up and started collecting doubles and figuring out how to upland hunt. FWIW, my politics were already well established at the time, so it is possible to overcome all this divisive BS with a man's instinct to be outdoors and just be a man. That friend now lives a days drive away, and still sees the world very differently from me, but we still shoot the sh!t often and drop everything to get together and hunt and fish when we can. Can happen to anybody Lloyd. Nice job on adding the boat to the rental. That must made additional fun for you guys.

Hal, seven billion people can’t live by hunting or subsistence methods. Where people are forced to do it today, like Africa or India, the environment and wildlife suffer. Unless you can find a humane way to reduce the population by 80-90% intensive agriculture is the only answer.

You sure you've got what it takes, hOmey?



Takes more than just the urge to hunt.........

Soylent Green or Mogadishu gutter rat…


Soylent Green is a 1973 American ecological dystopian thriller film directed by Richard Fleischer, and starring Charlton Heston, Leigh Taylor-Young and Edward G. Robinson in his final film role. Loosely based on the 1966 science fiction novel Make Room! Make Room! by Harry Harrison, the film combines both police procedural and science fiction genres: the investigation into the murder of a wealthy businessman; and a dystopian future of dying oceans and year-round humidity due to the greenhouse effect, resulting in suffering from pollution, poverty, overpopulation, euthanasia, and depleted resources.[2]

Plot

By the year 2022, the cumulative effects of overpopulation, pollution, and some apparent climate catastrophe have caused severe worldwide shortages of food, water and housing. There are 40 million people in New York City alone, where only the city's elite can afford spacious apartments, clean water, and natural food, and even then at horrendously high prices. The homes of the elite usually include concubines who are referred to as "furniture" and serve the tenants as slaves.


…pick your poison….and pass the hot sauce.


____________________________
Well, Little Jimmy canvasback…
The Kucherov presser was pretty funny, eh?

Aw, jeez, must not be an actual golf or hockey thread that needs soiling. Somebody start one, quick.



Best,
Ted
_______________________________________________
A man’s got to know his limitations....

Of course intensive agriculture is the 'only answer' to feed humans and has been for many centuries. But it has been the main cause of our most serious environmental problems, among them lower air quality, drought, soil erosion and loss of natural productivity. That is why we are forced to fertilize with nitrogen from natural gas and obtain potassium and phosphorus by mining. It is the reason we need to develop and restore perennial food crops for ourselves and our domestic livestock. We are working on the problem, for example development of perennial grains like wheat (Triticale) and production of fruits and vegetables indoors. I read of a system that would employ nut trees with an understory of vine crops. All is not lost, as a recent study predicts a population peak of 8.7 billion people in the not too distant future followed by a slow decline. So hopefully subsistence and sport hunting will not totally disappear as a human activity, especially among the few, the proud, the doublegun shooters!

Wheat and triticale are not the same thing, and triticale is nothing new. It's been around since the 1800s. All it is is a cross between wheat and rye, and it requires very similar amounts of fertilizer. And, you're wrong about us "being forced" to fertilize because of loss of natural productivity and erosion. While it is true that "new ground" yields much better the first year than older production soils, we fertilize to produce yields that are very high, higher than any new ground could ever produce without fertilizer. We've got to feed the world, ya' know.

You're making the same arguments that the tree huggers and pro-organic people have for decades. Problem is, they won't stand up under the harsh light of reality.

The modern farmer has it made...fertilize, spray and poison the weeds with a concoction of mixed weed killers a scientist couldn't hope to figure out.... followed by no till planting of genetically modified seed....maybe spray again with a concoction of mixed weed killers then.spray and poison every insect known to man a few tines then sit back and plAy on the computer all day until harvest time...did I miss anything Stan ?

And people wonder why we have no quail.

Your ignorance constantly amazes me. It knows no bounds.

Weber Weber, once again a great post on your forum is dragged into the sewer. What a damn shame.
The forum where we can all share knowledge, camaraderie, and brotherly love.
LOL.

Yeah, not sure what Stan’s and Ted’s problem is.

The urge to commercial hunt?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to...meol16&reflink=article_copyURL_share


___________________________
Кучеров!

You missed fungicides and insecticides Joe. True most chemical treatments are for weeds, but I have a huge bee operation at my place, and the keeper now figures he loses about 40% annually to colony collapse that times with applications of those chemicals. He in turn has to spray all his hives for throat mites and fungi. Most of the insects around my place have disappeared, along with several formerly common insectivorous birds. Gotta admit its nice to be in my garden and not be bothered with 'skeeters and deer flies.

Stan Triticale was just one of the grains agronomists were or are trying to breed to develop a stronger perennial habit. The effort must have failed as have not heard much about it for years. Yes they would also require fertilizer. You must live in an area with an entirely different agricultural system than the upper midwest. I don't know a single farmer that does not fertilize annually with urea or anhydrous N, even here in former grassland with some of the richest soils in the world. And many apply pellets with K and P also. OK they were not 'forced' to do it, they have to do it if they want a decent yield. Pre-emerge and post-emerge herbicides are a must. Very little 'new ground' around here as most of the homesteaders native pastures are long gone. But when the sod was first broken, yields were plentiful for many years and the native annual weeds were not much of a problem. One reason they called those in the ancient lake plains "Bonanza Farms.'

Don't know all the arguments of the 'the tree huggers and pro-organic people' as far as land use and feeding the world is concerned. But you are right as many are just wishful thinkers who propose a world that no longer exists or can exist. They remind me of those that use the term 'recyclable energy' as though Newton's Law does not apply to them like it does to the rest of us.

To stay on topic I believe the urge to hunt is an innate behavioral survival mechanism that has persisted in human males for a couple million years.

Hal, you need to read more carefully I guess. I dunno why you got the impression I live in an area that doesn't "fertilize annually". This is what I said, verbatim:


Please note the small word "we", meaning, I'm included.

I may be looking at your posts through a telescope backwards but your phrases like "stronger perennial habit" screams catch phrases of the dreamers, to me. Either a plant is a perennial, or it's an annual. Dunno what you mean by "stronger perennial habit".

Anyway, enough of this. I hunt because I enjoy the challenge, the meat, and the elements. I don't have an urge. It's part of me, it's who I am. 'Nuff said.

The "Spare the plow"...
"No till farmer" looking for the easy way out has decimated wild game populations nation wide.

Deep down you know it's true Stan.

That statement is so far wrong I'm not even going to go to the trouble to point out all the errors. The typical armchair expert's "ideas". Someone else can correct you for awhile. I'm wearied of it.

The American farmer has let the big chemical companies turn their agriculture fields into basically toxic waste dumps....

You know I'm right Stan....think back to when you were a real farmer or has it been so long you forgot.

When is the last time you cultivated a field Stan ?

I guess I'll let the rancher who is kind enough to let me hunt on his no til land that his posion is not up to snuff. Thanks for the education frAnk. I'm amazed that the place is crawling with Sharptail, Prairie Chickens and Pheasants as well as both Whitetail and Mule Deer. Clearly the man is not doing something right.

Nice bean and cotton fields in the pictures SteveO'.

Where’s the beef?


__________________________
Никита Игоревич Кучеров

Backstraps wrapped in bacon tonight on the grill from this guy, I eat very little beef.

I meant where’s the ranchers cattle.


________________________
KLM line.

He rotates them between areas. The operation is huge, tens of thousands of acres in production, some areas left fallow, some crop land, some pasture land.

SKB, jOe, Amen.

Stan this is what I meant by breeding for 'perennial habit'. These are not 'dreamers' doing the research. In real life, some farmer/ranchers in low-rainfall areas or areas with thin topsoil have saved their operations by planting perennial grasses on land formerly used for annual crops. Perennial legumes are often used to rebuild soil fertility, and water retention structures for livestock sometimes follow. Good for the landowners and good for us with the urge to hunt.

https://sites.psu.edu/futureoffood/2016/02/21/annual-to-perennial-corn/

Great looking buck with the smokepole SKB! Here's mine from a few years ago as well (& the only "trophy" I've ever really kept). I mostly hunt does anymore (tags are much easier to get these days and they arguably eat better).



Perhaps I'm ignorant of some component of it, but I was always of the understanding that farmers (and ranchers) play a critical part of the conservation ethic. If not for their ongoing efforts (and for the most part, their love of the land they steward) most game animals would be largely out of luck and huntable numbers simply wouldn't exit.

Great buck Lloyd! Tons of character, love the kicker on him.

My circle of friends that still hunt deer (a circle that has grown smaller, of late) are gravitating toward the primitive arms license, for the longer season, and fewer people in the woods. Some years it seems as if the rut might be over before the season starts, but, that is the only complaint I’ve ever heard.


Firearms deer season has been a three ring circus for pretty much my whole life in Minnesota.

Best,
Ted

Not around here Lloyd.

Farmers around here, manage their acreage by the square millimeter.

They allow nothing to exist within their properties that doesn’t add to their bottom line.
If there is taxpayer money available to enhance their operation, they work cooperatively to get as much of it as they can.

I think every tiled field in the Saginaw Valley has been re-worked in the last five years.

Hedgerow? What’s a hedgerow?

Think of it as a patchwork of pool tables divided by asphalt.

Every so often some of the big operators will allow a woodlot to exist, just so that their kids can have a place to hang deer stands.
But deer are seen as a scourge that really needs to be eliminated. I don’t see much conservation in that.

Hal, out of the 1300 acres of row crops (we are growing this year corn, cotton and peanuts) my son and I farm we bottom plowed 300 acres (peanut land), disced and bedded another 500, and minumum-tilled the rest into cover crops of wheat or oats. Doves and quail nest in the cover crops, ON THE GROUND! Saw it for myself this spring, eggs in the nests. It is a proven FACT that no-till and minimum till farming practices increase the organic matter in the soil and sequester higher levels of carbon than with crops that are grown with conventional tillage. That nice aroma you smell when a plow goes through the soil and tears it up is carbon being broken down and going into the atmosphere. There are stupid and ignorant people who refuse to understand that, however. Crop residue and cover crops also foster high numbers of insects which do not necessarily harm the crops planted into it, but feed songbirds and quail. Insects are the main source of protein for quail, and cover crop and no-till practices harbor huge numbers of grasshoppers in this area, perhaps other regions as well. The insecticides we spray to control CERTAIN SPECIES of insects are 99% pyrethroids, and have been for nearly 20 years. Same family of chemicals used in our homes to control roaches, silverfish, earwigs, etc. Totally harmless to mammals and birds, with no secondary kill to birds from eating the insects killed by them. These insecticides are made from chrysanthemums, grown by the thousands of acres in Africa for harvest and processing into pyrethroids.

You may understand much of this already, but there are obviously some who do not, and don't really care to IMO. For them ignorance is bliss.

They're all looking for the Government check....let's spray another round of chemicals.

It’d be revolutionary if Stan sent it back.


__________________________
You say you want a revolution? LOL 😂

Good land management Stan and congratulations on your cover crops. Yes doves regularly nest on the ground around here also. I'm a big fan of no-till and minimum-till and know first hand of it's benefit for wildlife. And nice not seeing the ditches with black topsoil blown in like was so common during the old summerfallow days. Even this year we had many newly-seeded fields eroding so bad it created zero visibility for drivers, so there are still some serious problems with conventional tillage, at least up here in the grain belt. I still worry about the effects of ag chemicals, especially as weeds develop resistance to them. As they say "Mother Nature always bats last."

We set aside three acres of land this spring that won't be planted to cash crops for 5 years, at least, and signed it up in the NRCS Monarch Butterfly enhancement program. It seems there is a decline in the numbers of Monarchs and they feel it is because of a decline in the plant population that they feed upon, which is butterfly milkweed. We bought milkweed/pollinator seed out of Texas (VERY EXPENSIVE) and planted it in the spring on those 3 acres. I'm hoping to get some pictures of Monarchs pollinating it later in the summer. Pretty cool. It's a program any landowner can potentially qualify for. NRCS has come a long ways in the last few years in promoting wildlife habitat, soil conservation and improved water quality with the programs they offer to the public.

Not targeting you, Hal, but I wonder often when I hear the hue and cry over "farm chemicals" being used if the same people buy all certified organic food, so that they can ensure they ingest nothing "foreign". I also wonder if they refuse to take pharmaceutical chemicals, "labeled" as medicines to alleviate the public's fear. They trust the FDA, and the EPA when it comes to believing their data on pollution, etc., but don't trust them when it comes to the labeling of pesticides. That's a bit disingenuous, eh? Wonder if they use only organic soaps and cleaning products in their homes? The list is endless, but anyone with a mind can see that we are surrounded by "chemicals" everyday that cause us no harm, but that enhance our lives and keep our bank accounts much fatter. If pesticides were banned, and the food supply was forced to be produced without them, there would be rioting in the streets over food prices and short supply. If people understood the years of testing that is necessary to get EPA approval of just one new pesticide for agricultural use they might pause and think before complaining............ with their mouths full. I'll be 70 in October, and have handled and applied pesticides myself for 50 years. I know dozens of other farmers that can say the same thing. I am on no prescription medications other than a drop of Timolol in my right eye each morning for glaucoma. If pesticides were as bad as much of the public thinks they are I'd have been dead years ago. Remember, I handle and apply them, plus I eat from the same food supply that most everyone else does. The same "chemicals" that are deadly to avians are deadly to mammals. If the quail are "gone" because of them why are the deer thriving? They eat our crops directly after we apply pesticides, by the thousands of acres, and can't wait to get back for more, and have two to three fawns every spring. Turkeys are so populous here as to be a nuisance at times. Doves can't wait to get their crop full of corn, wheat or peanuts, and we have them by the tens of thousands every season.

Think for yourselves, people. Don't fall for all the knee-jerk hype you hear from the treehuggers. You only embolden and give them credibility when you do that.

Guess you haven't heard Sanford....turkey populations have been on a pretty sharp decline.

Let's not compare mammals to ground nesting birds....

Bird has nest in the field farmers wets birds and nests down with chemicals several times and you're going to tell us how safe the mixtures are.

Chemical dependant farmers like you like to trash talk growing Organic because Organic equals work...(cuts down on Stans computer time).

Organic equals smaller yields cutting down on Sanfords profit....

I suspect if you took the time to figure in the actual cost of Chemicals and Genetically modified seed you might find lower yields more attractive.

What amazes me is we pay big bucks for other countries oil and we feed them damn near for free.

Sure true that farmers have been forced to use synthetic or mined fertilizers and manmade molecules to stay competitive in the global food market. I am not complacent about that development. Seems like just yesterday I was dusting potatoes with Paris green in the WWII Victory Gardens and a few years later filling gallon jugs with DDT laden fly spray for the cows. Then came Silent Spring and feeding the world got very complex. Today around here we have black flags flying around the cropfields as warnings that Dicamba has been mixed with the usual Glyphosate when sprayed on genetically modified ("Round Up Ready') soybeans and corn. Farmers, not environmental whackos, are suing one another because of Dicamba drift.
All this because of the development of herbicide resistance in weeds. Another rather frightening way to fight such resistance is to use compounds that stop photosynthesis completely. This is what we call "Double Knock" where Glyphosate goes on first, followed in a few days by a Paraquat "burn down' before seeding. Now there is talk about genetically modified wheat. So field weeds like pigeongrass, wild mustard, and pigweed have almost disappeared and seem to have taken our good dove hunting with them. Guess I'm just a worry-wart, but it has dampened by urge to hunt those wonderful little gamebirds that used to be seen by the hundreds in the wheat stubble and come to my waterholes every evening during the late summer and fall.

Devoting 3 acres of a farm to butterfly production is quite impressive. There aren't many folks willing to devote their time, money, and resources to a project like that for a non-game species. Stan, don't you just love it when people who have never spent one thin dime of their own money for wildlife management are so willing to tell you how you are doing it wrong?

Here's a suggestion for anyone who wants more wildlife of whatever kind you like - stop spending your extra money on things like bass boats, golfing trips, and expensive shotguns. Then take that money and buy your own tract of land and then spend the time and money to produce the kind of wildlife you want. Anyone can do it if you are willing to make it a priority.

No answer Stan....

Let me guess you're out mixing chemicals for the morning wildlife bAth.

I'm surprised this thread has turned into a farmer bashing fest. American farmers are pretty regulated as far as I can see. There is a limit to how much habitat preservation can go on and still run a farming business. I don't really see the feed the world argument as justifying environmental abuse because our farmers are so good now that hungry people aren't in the picture and profit lies in the above the rim surpluses produced, but I do believe agricultural regulation keeps things at a safe level...Geo

George I bet you still believe in the Easter Bunny.

We have the urge to hunt but there is nothing left to hunt but squirrels, deer and few turkeys around here.

This is not a "farmer bash" it's a Farming practice bash....something no one wants to take on.

If it helps, hoJo I am still P.O. about the quail/insecticide connection...Geo

Great example of "it's better to be thought of as an idiot than to type stupid sh it on the internet and remove all doubt". Lmao...
JR

If it helps, George, it's better to be pissed off than to be pissed on.
JR

I am lucky enough to be able to hunt a very large produce farmers farms. They use alot of chemicals. They have gotten into predator hunting and have always done scheduled burns. The quail have good cover. I have always been surrounded by quail no matter where I set up to turkey hunt. More so the past 5 years. Our hunting club for deer and ducks is turning out to be the same way. The population is booming from the young guys predator hunting. The urge to hunt I think is just experiencing something new and being able to harvest. It's primal and we should all stick together to preserve it. Teach the new and young folks and learn from the experienced.

I would seem that nothing in this world is very simple anymore. The tendrils of administrative control have crept into just about every aspect of our lives. This thread certainly wasn't started to bash farmers or anyone else but it has exposed the level of difficulty everybody now seems to face in order to farm or even hunt (or just about any other pursuit, frivolous or otherwise). Purely by accident, we've been watching "Clarkson's Farm" on Amazon lately. Car guy Jeremy Clarkson (late of Top Gear fame on the BBC) has a new series on him running a farm in the Cotswolds' section of Great Briton. The show is largely focused on his famously-irreverent approach to life being a humorous complication to the very serious business of running a large farm. The lesson for me, however, was how egregiously controlled every aspect of his farm is by local and then even national government entities. I was hoping that in the US of A that isn't the case but from what I'm gathering here... is that simply isn't correct. One thing that is very clear (at least to me) is that the margins in farming there (as in here as well, I suspect) are usually very thin, and balanced against all of the inherent risks that come with any farming or ranching enterprise...I'm surprised that so many still do it. Thank God that they do IMHO.

I had thought any educated person would have understood that when I used the term "P.O." above I meant "particularly offended" . But if JR prefers the scatological interpretation, I guess that's just him...Geo

You would be in the severe minority with that thinking, George. And scatological refers to doo doo, not tee tee. I've been pissed off a lot about many things of late, so I suppose I'm in the same shape.
JR

Don't feel bad, John. I had no idea P.O. meant "particularly offended", either. Guess we're both uneducated.

More like you both are smart azzes....

Hmmm....

Pigweed is the most noxious weed on Planet Earth.
JR

Butterflies love it....

You still have butterflies? Few insects around here anymore and the insectivorous birds have about abandoned my 26-ac. woodlot. Cliff Swallows and Barn Swallows quit nesting on my house and barn. Now half the soybeans are planted with neonic coated seeds. Really deadly stuff that also gets into the leaves and pollen.

Well said, Stan-you might as well have quoted the late Nash Buckingham. Sure wish we had a legal dove season here in MI- went out yesterday afternoon for barn pigeons, cut 44 acre field of Winter Wheat- doves all over the farm area, and the smallish pond holding water in the corner also was hosting about 30 Canadas-they skedaddled when I shot the first "shitty-bird"- I tracked a few high incomers from my hide- I need to get a swiveling camo seat, as very few incomers follow a straight line-- and I prop up the dead ones in the stubble for decoys- No law against tracking a dove or even a duck or goose in flight, just can't shoot- doves, probably never see the ban lifted in MI in my lifetime, ducks and geese in October-although the best hunting for waterfowl hereabouts in always in early Nov. RWTF

Michigan….no dove season because that’s illegal, but you can legally buy and smoke all the marijuana you want. Go figure, seems a little bit whacky, eh.

Urge to hunt may get sated up here as it looks like Canada will open up next month. Hope the Covid Delta variant (mutation?) does not hinder that plan.