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Posted By: Argo44 Brown bear attack in Alaska - gun in truck - 05/20/21 12:38 AM
I keep worrying about this stuff because son spends a lot of time up there with nothing more than bear spray. He has an 870...but clearly you need something you can get out in a hurry and put rounds down range. "Bear moved too fast to use a gun"

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Allen Minish was alone and surveying land for a real estate agent in a wooded, remote part of Alaska, putting some numbers into his GPS unit when he looked up and saw a large brown bear walking about 30 feet away.

“I saw him and he saw me at the same time, and it’s scary,” he said by phone Wednesday from his hospital bed in Anchorage, a day after being mauled by the bear in a chance encounter.

The mauling left Minish with a crushed jaw, a puncture wound in his scalp so deep the doctor told him he could see bone, lacerations and many stitches after a 4½-hour surgery. He also is wearing a patch over his right eye, saying the doctors are worried about it.

All that damage came from a very brief encounter — he estimates it lasted less than 10 seconds — after he startled the bear Tuesday morning just off the Richardson Highway, near Gulkana, located about 190 miles (306 kilometers) northeast of Anchorage.

The bear, which Minish said was larger than 300-pound black bears he has seen, charged and closed the ground between them in a few seconds.

Minish tried to dodge behind small spruce trees. That didn’t stop the bear; he went through them.

As the bear neared, Minish held up the pointed end of his surveying pole and pushed it toward the bear to keep it away from him.

The bear simply knocked it to the side, the force of which also knocked Minish to the ground.

“As he lunged up on top of me, I grabbed his lower jaw to pull him away,” he said, noting that’s how he got a puncture wound in his hand. “But he tossed me aside there, grabbed a quarter of my face.”

“He took a small bite and then he took a second bite, and the second bite is the one that broke the bones … and crushed my right cheek basically,” he said.

When the bear let go, Minish turned his face to the ground and put his hands over his head.

And then the bear just walked away.

He surmises the bear left because he no longer perceived Minish as a threat. The bear’s exit — Alaska State Troopers said later they did not locate the bear — gave him time assess damage.

“I realized I was in pretty bad shape because I had all this blood everywhere,” he said.

He called 911 on his cellphone. While he was talking to a dispatcher, he pulled off his surveyor’s vest and his T-shirt and wrapped them around his head in an attempt to stop the bleeding.

Then he waited 59 minutes for help to arrive. He knows that's how long it took because he later checked his cellphone record for the length of the time he was told to stay on the line with the dispatcher until rescue arrived.

At one point, he was able to give the dispatcher his exact coordinates from his GPS unit, but even that was a struggle.

“It took awhile to give them that because I had so much blood flowing into my eyes and on to the GPS, I kept having to wipe it all off,” he said.

He said one of the rescuers called him a hero after seeing how much blood was on the ground.

Rescuers tried to carry him through the woods to a road that parallels the nearby trans-Alaska pipeline to meet an ambulance. That didn’t work, and he said they had to help walk him a quarter mile through swamps, brush and trees. From there, he was taken to a nearby airport and flown to Providence Alaska Medical Center in Anchorage by a medical helicopter. He is listed in good condition at Providence.

Before help arrived, he worried about the bear returning to finish him off. “I kept hearing stuff,” he said, but every time he tried to lean up to look around, he became dizzy from the loss of blood.

“He didn’t come back, and so I just lay there and worried about it,” he said.

Minish, 61, has had his share of bear encounters over the 40 years he’s lived in Alaska, but nothing like this. He owns his own surveying and engineering business, which takes him into the wild often.

“That’s the one lesson learned,” he said. “I should have had somebody with me.”

He left his gun in the vehicle on this job but said it wouldn’t have mattered because the bear moved on him too fast for it to have been any use.

He can now add his name to the list of six people he knows who have been mauled by bears in Alaska.

“I guess I feel lucky,” Minish said of his encounter with the bear, after someone told him it’s better than being dead.

“In all honesty, it wouldn’t have mattered either way. You know, if it killed me, it killed me. I had a good life; I’m moving on. It didn’t kill me, so now let’s move on to the other direction of trying to stay alive,” he said.
When I lived up there I carried an S & W Model 19 to kill myself with before the bear did.
Your son has an 870, and that's good, but if it is not on his person it's not good. Jeff Cooper once wrote that a pistol is used to fight your way to the closest shotgun. That tells me that, in case of man or beast, carrying a big handgun on you is much better than a shotgun in a truck. Bears may, at times, attack very fast. But, there have also been many incidences where a handgun has warded off what may have been a fatal attack.
First lesson in Vietnam...Thanksgiving day 1966 in II Corps on a mission down near the III Corps border in intense triple canopy jungle with 6 companies of Montagnard strikers, I left my M-16 leaning against a tree and walked 20' feet away. A grizzled MSG jumped my a$$...I never did that again.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

But that's why I'm getting him a Glock 17 9mm...at least it's on him and it has 18 rounds that can be fired as fast as you pull the trigger. In weapons qualification (required for Afghanistan every 18 months) I could fire off 10 rounds in 1.5 seconds. I'd think paired with this round, at least you'd have a chance of hitting something.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388
I’m pretty sure I could kill a rat or goose.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/lif...tigers-and-bears-what-animal-would-win-f

And I’d pay money to watch Argo, Stan and Ted fight a bear.


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I’ll pass on the house cat.

I guess a tall stack of 9s is better than nothing, and I highly respect your combat experience, but I carry a .45. And, I practice with it, alone, not bullseye shooting, either. My theory is that, if I only have time to get off one or two rounds, I'd rather them pack a real punch than just poke a hole.
lonesome...with that slice...you'd better be carrying something when you look for your ball in the woods.
That's the problem Stan...hand gun skills are highly perishable. You can shoot on your farm...he theoretically could in Alaska as much as he wanted to but he's a kayaker and just won't do it. So I figure something that doesn't have huge recoil with a penetrator round...that he can draw and just pull the trigger might be better.

But in the end he still needs to practice getting the darned thing out of the holster and pulling a trigger. At least the Glock doesn't have a manual safety you have to think about. And three 9mm rounds = 1x .45 I should think.
Manual safeties on 1911 .45s are learned to be flipped off as the arm leaves the holster. I have ingrained that. My .45 rides cocked and locked. Condition One. Round chambered, hammer back, manual safety on. As it leaves the holster that manual safety is flipped off. The grip safety is already disabled by my grip. Arm is ready to be triggered by the time it is on target.

I do understand to some degree your trying to think ahead of your son, though. I know that my wife will never make herself familiar enough with a semi-automatic sidearm to flip off a safety, or rack the slide in case of a misfire. So, she has a S & W hammerless revolver in .38 Special, loaded with +Ps. No safety, no slide to reckon with. Just pull the trigger. And, when I bought it I chose it over a similar Ruger because the DA trigger pull was so much better.

We do the best we can, and trust in the Lord to do what we can't. He is able when we are not.
Posted By: LGF Re: Brown bear attack in Alaska - gun in truck - 05/20/21 04:40 AM
Argo, for your son you might consider a .45 modified to shoot .460 Rowland, a simple conversion on a 1911 https://clarkcustomguns.com/product/460-rowland-conversion-kit-for-1911/ or Glock 21 https://www.460rowland.com/

It is the ballistic equivalent of a light .44 Magnum: 230 gr at 1350 fps, or 255 gr at 1300 fps. When working around lions, I carry a high capacity Paraordnance, which holds 14 in the standard magazine or 17 with an extended basepad. Not nearly what you want for a big angry carnivore but a lot better than a 9mm or .45, or a long gun back in the truck.
Originally Posted by Argo44
ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Allen Minish was alone and surveying land for a real estate agent in a wooded, remote part of Alaska, putting some numbers into his GPS unit when he looked up and saw a large brown bear walking about 30 feet away.

Sounds like every day for me minus the Bear. We Surveyors should receive hazardous pay? I tote either a Biks/Combo(w/ sling) or a Belgian Poacher's Gun in 32 bore in the U.S. of A. Outside of that, whatever I can lay my hands on @ the time.

The Poacher's gun folds up well & will fit in a backpack. Currently the Turks offer one in 0.410.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
If there were worries getting an 870 transported through Canada, a pistol might even be more difficult. Similar with ammo, if your boy stumbles on what you want him to use while he's in Alaska, he should probably grab it. Sometimes, ammo retailers won't ship out of the lower 48.

If you haven't committed to the pistol quite yet, you could also look over a Glock in 10mm, and similar ammo, and give some thought to the holster?

I believe last summer, hikers killed two grizzlies in Montana and Wyoming national parks with handguns. There're many videos of big bears popping out on trails very close to hikers, sometimes chasing other game animals. There are other animals that can get agitated and agressive.
Originally Posted by craigd
If there were worries getting an 870 transported through Canada, a pistol might even be more difficult. Similar with ammo, if your boy stumbles on what you want him to use while he's in Alaska, he should probably grab it. Sometimes, ammo retailers won't ship out of the lower 48.

If you haven't committed to the pistol quite yet, you could also look over a Glock in 10mm, and similar ammo, and give some thought to the holster?

I believe last summer, hikers killed two grizzlies in Montana and Wyoming national parks with handguns. There're many videos of big bears popping out on trails very close to hikers, sometimes chasing other game animals. There are other animals that can get agitated and agressive.

A pistol will be next to impossible.
I just remembered that I purchased Dad a >>PaintBall<< pistol within the past couple years & it was really a non-lethal option with say 4 different nasty spheres loaded with odd stuff. I'll look for the name. I seem to recall it was a Byrna?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
9mm is on the low end of power but with it you have increased his ability to fight back from strong words and spit, to loud bangs and moderate hot lead. Now make sure you can get him to carry it 100% of the time. People who underestimate the risk often become slack about being prepared and after a period of nothing happening you naturally think nothing will ever happen.

That story above is too much like my personal experience except I was three times further away from the bear and I had a .270. Bears are faster than you ever dream they could be. Perhaps some bears will pause and hesitate before charging. Mine charged the second he saw me and was at top speed in ten feet. Bears are bad news to me. If I ever go back to Alaska I am either going to have a large caliber handgun or more likely a pump shotgun loaded as they say for bear. But most likely I’ll never step foot into the bush in Alaska again. The bears have me buffaloed.
Originally Posted by LGF
Argo, for your son you might consider a .45 modified to shoot .460 Rowland, a simple conversion on a 1911 https://clarkcustomguns.com/product/460-rowland-conversion-kit-for-1911/ or Glock 21 https://www.460rowland.com/

It is the ballistic equivalent of a light .44 Magnum: 230 gr at 1350 fps, or 255 gr at 1300 fps. When working around lions, I carry a high capacity Paraordnance, which holds 14 in the standard magazine or 17 with an extended basepad. Not nearly what you want for a big angry carnivore but a lot better than a 9mm or .45, or a long gun back in the truck.
There is also a magtech attachment that you slide the 1911 lower on and makes a compact 460 rowland carbine.
A good friend was filming a TV hunting show in AK. He's a great outdoorsman and hunter, but wasn't carrying while filming. A local asked if he had a bear gun. He said no, that he was watching close. The local handed him a short barrelled .44 mag. revolver to keep while he was there. My friend hefted it and said he bet it kicked bad, being so lightweight. Local said son, you won't even notice it when its in a grizzly's mouth.
Posted By: GLS Re: Brown bear attack in Alaska - gun in truck - 05/20/21 05:16 PM
I've always heard in bear country it's better to be with at least one other person. In that situation, big bore isn't required in a handgun. .22, .25 or .32 are sufficient. As the two of you flee from the bear, shoot friend in knee to slow him down.
Note to self.....Never hunt with Gil
For about the first thirty years I was going to Kodiak, AK, I never saw a bear while fishing anywhere around the road system. In the more recent 16 Moose & Goose has cracked down on ranchers, deer hunters and other locals keeping them shot down and now they are everywhere. I've been run out of fishing spots and they have been in our yard right in town.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Authorities shot rubber bullets at this young guy several times as he wandered the neighborhoods, and finally shot him when he went on the grade school grounds.
Well, you guys know guns better than I do. But here's my feeling on pistol vs. Bear. Nothing you can carry and fire by hand, except maybe a cut down M-79, is going to stop a Brown Bear, Polar Bear, or Grizzly simply by the lbs ft shock of the bullet itself. It would have to be well placed to have a chance of salvation. Some of you all are extremely well-trained and disciplined. But most people simply don't practice enough with their pistols. (which includes drawing from a holster and shooting).

So, why not carry something with which you can run off 10 shots in a second, combined with the above mentioned Alaskan made 147 grain penetrator round?

Ky that was a damned good shot under extreme pressure. Could you do it with a pistol under same pressure? - I'd take the 10 controllable rounds and do some research on where to place them. This is just me and knowing son and his interests.

He's here this weekend...think we'll go out and shoot my Glocks... haven't done that for awhile but I'm good - been through 8 qualifications and re-quals - maybe 500 rounds in each, drawing, shooting, tap-rack, clear malfunction, reload, get out of cars, shoot behind barriers, target identification under pressure, etc. so. yeah I'm good, right?..(oh wait, last time I drew and fired practicing a combat situation was...what? omg it was 4 years ago!!)
Originally Posted by GLS
I've always heard in bear country it's better to be with at least one other person. In that situation, big bore isn't required in a handgun. .22, .25 or .32 are sufficient. As the two of you flee from the bear, shoot friend in knee to slow him down.

Joke, but a Damn poor joke IMO
Posted By: GLS Re: Brown bear attack in Alaska - gun in truck - 05/21/21 10:35 AM
Originally Posted by ellenbr
Originally Posted by Argo44
ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Allen Minish was alone and surveying land for a real estate agent in a wooded, remote part of Alaska, putting some numbers into his GPS unit when he looked up and saw a large brown bear walking about 30 feet away.



The Poacher's gun folds up well & will fit in a backpack. Currently the Turks offer one in 0.410.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Both the Turkish Yildiz TK36 (.410) and TK 12 (12 ga.) are offered by Academy. They are lightweight (alloy actions) "knock-offs" of the old Beretta M412 folding series of single-shots. Gil
Posted By: GLS Re: Brown bear attack in Alaska - gun in truck - 05/21/21 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by DmColonial
Originally Posted by GLS
I've always heard in bear country it's better to be with at least one other person. In that situation, big bore isn't required in a handgun. .22, .25 or .32 are sufficient. As the two of you flee from the bear, shoot friend in knee to slow him down.

Joke, but a Damn poor joke IMO
Who said I was joking?
Originally Posted by DmColonial
Originally Posted by GLS
I've always heard in bear country it's better to be with at least one other person. In that situation, big bore isn't required in a handgun. .22, .25 or .32 are sufficient. As the two of you flee from the bear, shoot friend in knee to slow him down.

Joke, but a Damn poor joke IMO

Damn poor sense of humour, IMO

Come on, buddy. Lighten up. By any metric, it’s a good joke. Classic structure, good delivery, on topic. The one problem with it is Gil tells it all the time.
Originally Posted by GLS
Both the Turkish Yildiz TK36 (.410) and TK 12 (12 ga.) are offered by Academy. They are lightweight (alloy actions) "knock-offs" of the old Beretta M412 folding series of single-shots

The one to which I was referring is an odd Belgian platform hammer double. I'll go by the gunshop and see what the modell might be.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/the-poacher-s-companion

Here is the platform, top longarm.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Gil and I hunt woodcock in wild hog territory. Bumping into them in the thick cane and stuff is a distinct possibility. They're there. I don't worry about Gil's plan. My legs are longer ............and I plan to leave him in the dust.
Good to see you mentioned USMC Legend (among many) Col. Cooper- and his Gunsite academy in AZ-- one of Jeff's many fine instructors was also a believer in Jeff's theory about the handgun getting you to a shotgun-loaded with 00buckshot. My carry handgun is my Colt Combat Commander, from Armand Swensen's CA shop-and like you, I carry it (Yaqui slide holster) Cond 1-- but I also agree with your choice of the S&W 19 with .38 PSP rounds-- simple, 100% reliable even under combat stress, and no stress on springs, as with the 1911-A-1 and the Browning High-Power (my choice in a 9mm, followed by the Walther P-38. I have never been in Alaska-but for my defense shotgun, either my M25 guard and riot gun-20" cyl. bore barrel- or my Browning A-5 Belgian with the 24" open bored slug barrel-both with 00 buck- and NO Sling-just as in Africa- it could hang up in the brush in a high stress scenario-- Be Prepared and Use Enough Gun..
RWTF
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
Gil and I hunt woodcock in wild hog territory. Bumping into them in the thick cane and stuff is a distinct possibility. They're there. I don't worry about Gil's plan. My legs are longer ............and I plan to leave him in the dust.
I think GLS left out an important detail, make sure your buddy is faster than you, so you can get a clear shot grin
Originally Posted by GLS
Originally Posted by DmColonial
Originally Posted by GLS
I've always heard in bear country it's better to be with at least one other person. In that situation, big bore isn't required in a handgun. .22, .25 or .32 are sufficient. As the two of you flee from the bear, shoot friend in knee to slow him down.

Joke, but a Damn poor joke IMO
Who said I was joking?

LOL


____________________________
I don’t look calm to you?

Michael Fasbender- great job in his role as a German speaking British OSS operative- but learning another language and becoming fluent is not 100% the same as knowing the customs and habits- asmshown when he raised his right hand to signal Emil- the inn keeper, to bring "drei glazzer" 3 glasses- for the 30 year old Scotch the Gestapo Major had ordered for them. Dead give-away indeed. Great movie, as are all of Quentin's productions--RWTF
Posted By: GLS Re: Brown bear attack in Alaska - gun in truck - 05/21/21 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by ellenbr
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/the-poacher-s-companion

Here is the platform, top longarm.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Thanks. Interesting article. Neat little guns, especially the skeleton stock. The Yildiz is hammerless btw as is the Beretta 412. A couple of years ago I was biking out of the swamp with a turkey and my folder .410 and ran into two younger guys deep in the swamp that had walked in with automatics. They noted my gun and I later learned they had bought Yildiz .410s and had theirs similarly modified like mine. The finished guns weigh 3.25 lbs. One of the men was a former professional hunter in Tanzania. I ran into him this year while hunting turkeys and he said he had killed several birds with his .410. He wades out to the higher ground hammocks in waist deep water though the swamp in a bathing suit with his folder in a back pack with his bugtamer ghillie suit and once on the higher ground, puts on the bugtamer suit over his bathing suit while dripping wet. He hunts wearing Crocs. Not me, Kemo Sabe. Stan, we'll do our best to avoid those razorbacks. Wear those track shoes.
Gil
Posted By: GLS Re: Brown bear attack in Alaska - gun in truck - 05/21/21 04:46 PM
Here's a method that works on a knife attack, but may have shortcomings with a bear:
Originally Posted by GLS
Here's a method that works on a knife attack, but may have shortcomings with a bear:

Might work. Just have Ted test it first.


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Good thing the prickly cactus was there to break his fall after bouncing off that guardrail. Might have been hurt otherwise.

Argo44, that was a dumb asssss, lucky shot, not any expression of my skill. I had nightmares longer than you could imagine. Worse my wife had warned me I was going out into bear country and better be careful. I wasn’t and my wife gave me hell about it. My shot was desperation, a Hail Mary. It was perfect, in-spite of my lack of preparation.

When I was planning a Africa trip, which never happened, I shot a ton of .375 and .458 trying to get ready for any emergency. A charging bear is the North American version of charging big cat or buff. No bullet is too big, if well placed and none are big enough if poorly placed. But you got to shoot to have any chance and a 9mm should give you a lot of chances on a short time. Get him the gun, get him to practice a bit and make sure he keeps it on his person. Just like a rifle in the truck was not where it was needed, a pistol in a backpack will be impossible to quickly access. Get him a comfortable carry holster and have him wear it all the time. Hope he never needs it but am glad you are thinking about plan b for him.
I think the link to the 9mm ammo had an interesting story, but the guide that dispatched the small grizzly with the compact pistol was a really calm, accurate shot. I don’t think many handguns can transfer shock like a high power rifle round, so the thinking might be deep penetration.

I still remember watching some outdoor show where the host stumble and shot his African PH with a .458 solid. It supposedly passed through and through, and the guide was able to walk out and get to a hospital, but anyway, deep penetration might somewhat hope for good placement. Let your boy loose, emptying the magazine as quickly as possible, I don’t know, it may look more like fun than putting energy into a smaller target.

I think it’s a good thing that you folks are going to practice, it wouldn’t be the worst idea to have confidence that his pistol will feed that type of ammo, and being comfortable with one in the chamber. I think the most striking thing to me about the original story was the cell phone call for help. Your son probably has more dead spots than reception. Have fun at the range.
and that's why the senior NCO's run the unit--100%.
Some years ago I shot a Fallow doe with a .33 Winchester. I was crouching down finishing the gralloch ( she was too heavy for me to hoist into a tree) when a large black animal snuck up beside me and started chomping on the innards.

It gave me quite a fright until I remembered we don’t have bears in England, and realised it was my friend’s dog.
Originally Posted by craigd
I think the link to the 9mm ammo had an interesting story, but the guide that dispatched the small grizzly with the compact pistol was a really calm, accurate shot. I don’t think many handguns can transfer shock like a high power rifle round, so the thinking might be deep penetration.

I still remember watching some outdoor show where the host stumble and shot his African PH with a .458 solid. It supposedly passed through and through, and the guide was able to walk out and get to a hospital, but anyway, deep penetration might somewhat hope for good placement. Let your boy loose, emptying the magazine as quickly as possible, I don’t know, it may look more like fun than putting energy into a smaller target.

I think it’s a good thing that you folks are going to practice, it wouldn’t be the worst idea to have confidence that his pistol will feed that type of ammo, and being comfortable with one in the chamber. I think the most striking thing to me about the original story was the cell phone call for help. Your son probably has more dead spots than reception. Have fun at the range.
I don't practice for bears. I practice for the more likely desperate druggie.

Mine feeds 100% with Federal HydraShoks. And, if I couldn't have one in the pipe I would rather have a 4 foot long piece of 3/4" steel water pipe.
All you can do is prepare. I’ve heard of fly fisherman wading in with a short barreled 12 gauge or 44 carbine slung over their shoulders, must be a huge pain in the ass while fishing, but, less of a pain then meeting the wrong bear armed with a fishing pole. I’ve stumbled onto the remains of meth labs, twice, but, the druggies running them had moved on in both cases. Told the sheriff, anyway, he seemed less alarmed than I was. Found a jet ski on a trailer in the woods, miles from anything, called the sheriff when I got to the car, and it was gone before the sheriff arrived.
The black bears I have actually seen were always running away. Lucky, I guess.
There are many things about Canada I don’t understand. A guy lives in the bush, why do they care what gun he has? They aren’t coming to help no matter what happens.

Best,
Ted

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Nowhere near as weird as Detroit, however.
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
All you can do is prepare. I’ve heard of fly fisherman wading in with a short barreled 12 gauge or 44 carbine slung over their shoulders, must be a huge pain in the ass while fishing, but, less of a pain then meeting the wrong bear armed with a fishing pole. I’ve stumbled onto the remains of meth labs, twice, but, the druggies running them had moved on in both cases. Told the sheriff, anyway, he seemed less alarmed than I was. Found a jet ski on a trailer in the woods, miles from anything, called the sheriff when I got to the car, and it was gone before the sheriff arrived.
The black bears I have actually seen were always running away. Lucky, I guess.
There are many things about Canada I don’t understand. A guy lives in the bush, why do they care what gun he has? They aren’t coming to help no matter what happens.

Best,
Ted

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Nowhere near as weird as Detroit, however.

Not hard to figure out Ted. Our population is 90% urban. Tyranny of the majority.

We have nothing like your Senate that balances out the population majority of the House with balanced region (state) concerns.
["Not hard to figure out Ted. Our population is 90% urban. Tyranny of the majority.

We have nothing like your Senate that balances out the population majority of the House with balanced region (state) concerns."] canvasback
-----------------------------

In Georgia we once had what we called the county unit system. It offset the vast number of Atlanta area voters, and put the counties in charge. The one man one vote movement did away with that, and Atlanta not only controls our legislature but who wins the national elections here. The problem in the USA with the one man one vote argument is that our country is a republic not a strict democracy...Geo
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
…meeting the wrong bear armed with a fishing pole.

Imagine meeting the wrong bear armed with a four foot long piece of 3/4” steel water pipe.


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Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
…Canada...
This thread is drifting into a forbidden topic. I can feel it. Hockey.
Originally Posted by lonesome roads
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
…meeting the wrong bear armed with a fishing pole.

Imagine meeting the wrong bear armed with a four foot long piece of 3/4” steel water pipe.


______________________________
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
…Canada...
This thread is drifting into a forbidden topic. I can feel it. Hockey.


Per usual, you’re late, and missed the obvious.

Best,
Ted

____________________________________________
Detroit.
Posted By: keith Re: Brown bear attack in Alaska - gun in truck - 05/22/21 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by Geo. Newbern
["Not hard to figure out Ted. Our population is 90% urban. Tyranny of the majority.

We have nothing like your Senate that balances out the population majority of the House with balanced region (state) concerns."] canvasback
-----------------------------

In Georgia we once had what we called the county unit system. It offset the vast number of Atlanta area voters, and put the counties in charge. The one man one vote movement did away with that, and Atlanta not only controls our legislature but who wins the national elections here. The problem in the USA with the one man one vote argument is that our country is a republic not a strict democracy...Geo

No, the real problem is that Liberal Left Democrats and the Liberal Press have conspired to silence any mention of things like suitcases full of ballots that were pulled out from under tables late at night... after Republican Election Observers and members of the Press were sent home.

In fact, the narrative on this has now shifted dramatically. If you do a Google search on the matter now, you will be indoctrinated with the new Democrat Left propaganda that you should not believe what is clearly shown on the surveillance tapes. You are being told to not believe your own eyes. Actual Video evidence is quashed by utter bullshit and repeated lies.



This is but a small fraction of the "irregularities" that occurred in Democrat controlled States and Cities in the 2020 Election. One man-- One Vote is not a problem. The problem is dead people voting, people voting multiple times, ballot harvesting, highly questionable mail-in votes, lack of a paper trail for voting, and a lack of Voter I.D. requirements to make certain that only legal U.S. citizens vote one time. You have repeatedly been told that there is zero evidence of election fraud.... even in precincts where there is greater than 100% voter turn-out. And any questioning of the obvious is ridiculed or totally shut down by Social Media platforms like Facebook or Twitter. Censorship is alive and well. The fate of our Republic is very questionable.

I couldn't make a post about Toyota losing big lawsuits over rusted truck frames and racial discrimination against blacks and Asians, because it could hurt Liberal's feelings, so I probably shouldn't get my hopes up about this subject getting posted...

To get this thread back on track, a high capacity 9 m/m increases the odds that the shooter under attack might get very lucky, and poke out both of the grizzly bear's eyes. Then he can side-step the blinded bear. KY Jon admits that stopping a grizzly charge with a .270 bullet in the eye involved a lot of luck, but a lifetime of snap shooting at small moving clay targets and birds probably helped him to instinctively point his rifle toward the right place. The average handgun shooter has trouble keeping rapid fire double action shots on paper at 7 yards. Laying them into vital areas of a charging grizzly is a bit more problematic, and a pissed-off grizzly will cover 7 yards in a second or less. I think I'd prefer one short barrelled pump 12 gauge stuffed with slugs or large buckshot over a 9 m/m handgun in each hand.
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Originally Posted by lonesome roads
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
…meeting the wrong bear armed with a fishing pole.

Imagine meeting the wrong bear armed with a four foot long piece of 3/4” steel water pipe.


______________________________
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
…Canada...
This thread is drifting into a forbidden topic. I can feel it. Hockey.


Per usual, you’re late, and missed the obvious.

Best,
Ted



____________________________________________
Detroit.

+1
I was stationed in Anchorage for 9 years. In my spare time I was a Wildlife conservation officer. If I was not wearing the cloth of our nation, I was out and about hunting, fishing.

My personal carry bear gun was my King Cobra, loaded with very hot solids. I only fired it twice in anger towards a bear. That’s another story.

While performing my second fun job as a wildlife officer, my side arm was a SW 44 mag and 870 loaded with slugs.

For the two shots at the bear, I was fishing the Russian River, a gentleman was camped about 75 yards up stream. I knew fishermen were being pestered by a bear with all the shouting and get out of here going on most of the evening not dark at 2am , then all of a sudden a blood letting screams then a lot of shooting and screaming from others. I knew it was not good, it lasted less than 10 seconds, not sure how I got to the camper, but the Beer had him by the leg dragging him I shot twice at less than 3 yards. Another fisherman beside me fired 1 shot from a 454 which the bear was dispatched. Not sure who or what killed the bear Stan, the first 5 shots at point blank was a 45acp which did not dispatch the bear.

Guy was taken by ambulance and I spent an extra couple hrs filling out paperwork that was not planned for.
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
+1

Just hit the like button, Stan.

And keep on practicing. If you never run across a pissed off bear or druggie you can always hope for the revolution.


__________________________
Boston. Bruins.
I'll make my points like I want to. You continue to do so in your peculiar ways. I won't be running into any bears, Lonny. In the case of druggies I will be heeled with my .45.

As to the water pipe, sad that you can't differentiate between sarcasm and real life. Or maybe you can, but you feel you have to keep up some perceived persona. Whatever. But, when you can't discuss anything seriously without linking it to hockey, in some way or another, that persona that you try to keep up becomes meaningless. Rave on, though.

No wonder you're lonesome.
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
…In the case of druggies I will be heeled with my .45.

Praise the Lord…


_____________________________
…and pass the ammunition, eh.
Originally Posted by lonesome roads
Praise the Lord…


_____________________________
…and pass the ammunition, eh.

Yes ........ and amen.
Posted By: BEY Re: Brown bear attack in Alaska - gun in truck - 05/23/21 11:04 AM
https://www.outdoorlife.com/bear-defense-gun-shootout-magnum-revolvers-vs-10mm-autos/

10 mm glock
Interesting read, Brian. Thanks.

I understand the argument about ease of carry being important, so that the arm is always with you. But, just for curiosity sake, how does a load of 00, or 000 buckshot stack up in stopping a bear attack? I read it has been the choice of many African PHs when having to follow up a wounded leopard. But, a leopard is diminutive in size when compared to a bear. When I try to imagine a bear attack I cannot help but wish for a short barreled 12 ga. pump. Being a shotgunner a hundred times more than a pistolero I think I would be light years ahead of the game (pardon the pun) with a shotgun. In my work, which keeps me in rural and often isolated areas, I can possibly drive up on a drug deal going down, or be accosted by a meth-head wanting to steal my truck or tools to sell for a quick buck at anytime. Although the .45 is at my side in Condition One, there is a loaded 12 ga. in the truck, too. Concerning altercations which humans I've always agreed with Jeff Cooper who wrote that a pistol's purpose is to fight your way to the nearest shotgun.

But, back to the question, what would be the effectiveness of a load of buck to a bear's head, under charge? I'd think it would be a charge stopper, but would like to hear of specific examples.
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
Interesting read, Brian. Thanks.

I understand the argument about ease of carry being important, so that the arm is always with you. But, just for curiosity sake, how does a load of 00, or 000 buckshot stack up in stopping a bear attack? I read it has been the choice of many African PHs when having to follow up a wounded leopard. But, a leopard is diminutive in size when compared to a bear. When I try to imagine a bear attack I cannot help but wish for a short barreled 12 ga. pump. Being a shotgunner a hundred times more than a pistolero I think I would be light years ahead of the game (pardon the pun) with a shotgun. In my work, which keeps me in rural and often isolated areas, I can possibly drive up on a drug deal going down, or be accosted by a meth-head wanting to steal my truck or tools to sell for a quick buck at anytime. Although the .45 is at my side in Condition One, there is a loaded 12 ga. in the truck, too. Concerning altercations which humans I've always agreed with Jeff Cooper who wrote that a pistol's purpose is to fight your way to the nearest shotgun.

But, back to the question, what would be the effectiveness of a load of buck to a bear's head, under charge? I'd think it would be a charge stopper, but would like to hear of specific examples.

Oof. I just pray you never have any trouble.


_____________________________
The race is not to the swift nor the battle to the strong…
But time and chance happen to them all.
Thank you for that. I pray the same.
I was told that the logic of a shotgun and a bear
was blasts to the legs to end its’ ability to chase.
Posted By: GLS Re: Brown bear attack in Alaska - gun in truck - 05/23/21 01:50 PM
From reading the links, it appears that penetration is more important than expansion. 12 ga. tungsten buckshot would seem to be ideal for bear stoppage. I am not aware of it being commercially available, but it may be. Here's a discussion of it on bear, but the load discussed is 10 ga.
https://www.tungstensupershots.com/viewtopic.php?t=380
Gil
Stan, being a baby boomer, perhaps you could just pull out your lightsaber and Jedi that bear right down the middle. Personally I’d rather have that pump gun with two loads of buck shot followed up by a solid slugs for when times get nasty. Factory, 12 gauge, 3” slugs going Mach 2, seem to be the new norm. Painful to shoot I expect they would do the job. I figure I should be able to tag him twice with the buckshot and if wounded or if the buckshot failed to do the job it’s be time to get serious. I carry a pistol but am much happier with a pump gun in my hands.
The Meat Eater provides some first hand input here.

Excellent informational interview.
Posted By: GLS Re: Brown bear attack in Alaska - gun in truck - 05/23/21 06:33 PM
The Rinella interview and the reaction of those with him when the bear rushed in is the embodiment of the Mike Tyson statement: "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." I had such a moment woodcock hunting in wild hog territory. Abby had bayed a hog in the rivercane and fortunately she came when I whistled. I was in thick cane and laid my shotgun beside me while I went to one knee to leash Abby to get the hell out of Dodge. While leashing her, the sow charged. She must have been protecting her piglets. I saw her under 10 yards breaking cane as she ran towards me. I stood up, without the gun, and ran at her hollering with my arms up in the air waving. The thought of shooting her never entered my mind in the split second I reacted. Luckily, it was a bluff charge and she spun on her heels and ran away. If I did that with a charging brown bear the bear's first thought would be "I don't recall ordering this food delivery. How nice." Gil
This is so correct and is what I was talking about....and the experience described is similar to combat. That's why the saying, "you don't rise to the occasion, but rather sink to the level of your training," is true.

But frankly even realistic training (and the US army a number of years ago was able to simulate live combat in training which clearly saves lives), doesn't replace real-time experience. And even with experience traumatic surprise can still cause men to "opt out" or just "forget."

Maybe I'll let son stick to his 870 and bear spray.
Where a heavy revolver did save lives...but only one revolver, one (jammed) rifle, and a crossbow:

Eli Francovich, The Spokesman-Review, Spokane, Wash.
Sun, May 23, 2021, 11:01 AM
May 23—Trevor Schneider peered through his scope, a 1,000-pound brown bear made small by 1,410 feet of distance.

For Schneider, of Bonners Ferry, it was a reasonable shot. He's killed animals from farther, after all. He slowed his breathing, each breath condensing in the chill of the Alaskan evening.

It was 8 p.m. on May 13 and Schneider and his sister Tana Grenda were on their fourth day hunting coastal black bears on the southern side of the Alaskan peninsula.

They'd been dropped off by Grenda's husband along the beach on May 8, set up camp and promptly spent the next two days waiting out bad weather. When the skies cleared, they glassed the steep hillsides above them, eventually spotting a large brown bear they decided to stalk.

They left camp at 6 a.m. on May 13 and spent the next 14 hours hiking uphill, picking their way through thickets of alders and devil's club. Over the course of the final 2 miles they gained 2,000 feet of elevation, climbing through cliff bands, eventually topping out onto an alpine snow field. By 8 p.m., they'd traveled about 8 miles, crossing numerous streams, each carrying 50-pound backpacks.

That's where they saw their bear, one of many that had just come out of hibernation. In southern Alaska, these coastal brown bears grow big eating salmon. Unlike in the Lower 48, they are common animals. Already, Schneider and Grenda had passed by several large animals.

"They are salmon bears," Schneider said. "It's not like what we're used to in areas like North Idaho and Washington. You see bears like you see deer down here."

They closed in on the bear they'd spotted from the beach 8 miles below.

"We were going after a big one," he said. "We weren't going to shoot a small one."

He found his spot, 470 yards away, totally exposed on an open expanse of snow.

He aimed. Steadied his breath. And shot.

Once, twice and a third time. The .338 ultra mag (a large magnum cartridge good for long-distance shooting) pierced the bear's lung, the second high left on the animal's shoulder and the third through the bear's neck.

He tried to fire again, but his gun had jammed. Oh well, he figured, he'd fired three good shots on the bear.

Schneider examined his weapon to figure out what happened. Meanwhile, the bear started to move toward him. Schneider couldn't figure out what happened with his gun, and the bear, despite the three bullets, had zeroed in on them and was rapidly approaching.

They started to panic.

Bears are fast. An average member of the species can run 30 mph when threatened. For comparison's sake, Usain Bolt — the fastest human recorded — ran 27.78 mph when he set a record in the 100-meter run in 2009.

Bears are even faster going downhill on snow. They use their bodies "like a sled," Schneider said.

"He's working his way toward us and we're starting to panic," Schneider said. "I said, 'OK we have to run.' Basically, we have to buy time here."

They dropped their gear and headed downhill, angling toward three boulders, the only cover around. They got behind the boulders. The gun was still jammed. Grenda didn't have her own rifle.

This particular bear hunt in Alaska has specific rules. First, you can only apply for it every four years. Second, if you aren't a resident of Alaska the only way you can get a tag is by either hiring a guide (that costs) or going with a next of kin relative who is an Alaskan resident.

Grenda lives in Alaska, so, per the hunting regulations, she was Schneider's guide.

But also according to the rules, she was not allowed to shoot the bear.

The two opted to save weight and bring only one rifle, one bow and one pistol.

They made it to the rocks on the ridge line, but the bear continued to move forward. When it was about 150 yards away, the animal got "a hit of adrenaline like it almost took drugs."

"At that point it really started moving," Schneider said.

They ducked behind one of the boulders and Schneider pulled out his revolver, which held five .454 Casull rounds. He had five more rounds on his hip. Schneider, trying to stay crouched behind the rock, waited until the bear got closer.

He fired, aiming for the animal's face, but crouched as he was, he missed. He had four bullets left.

He stood up. Took aim.

"OK, I have four more shots," he said. "I have to make it count here.

"It's coming to us mouth open, huffing at a dead sprint."

His second shot hit the animal in the chest. At 5 yards he shot again, hitting the bear in its front shoulder.

That shot turned the animal, and it angled away from Schneider and his sister. He shot once more, hitting it broadside.

Schneider and his sister moved again, this time heading uphill and to the side, figuring it would be harder for the bear to get them. Once they put some space between them and the animal, they turned around and looked down. The bear had tumbled off the ridge, starting a small avalanche.

It wasn't moving.

Seeing this, Schneider and Grenda screamed — a howl of survival.

"We both thought we were going to die," Schneider said. "What is that going to feel like? Am I going to feel the pain of getting ripped apart?"

The two made their way back to the bear. Schneider poked it at least "30 times with my pistol" to make sure it was dead. As the adrenaline faded, Schneider sat on the ground, sick to his stomach.

The bear was huge, a 28 1/4 -inch skull and 10-foot-4.

"It looked like a prehistoric monster," he said.

The duo spent the next several hours skinning the animal and packing its pelt. They hiked down into the low country and spent a cold night sleeping under a tarp.

Schneider's pack weighed 150 pounds, he estimated. Grenda's was about 100 pounds.

The next day, they hiked back to their base camp on the beach. They did not pack out any of the bear meat.

"Their meat is very nasty," he said. "You're just required to take the hide and the skull for research purposes and stuff."

The final miles to camp were grueling, with both of them taking breaks every 50 to 100 yards.

"You take your body to failure and then you do it again and again and again," he said.

But they made it.

In retrospect, Schneider said they both should have had pistols and a backup rifle.

As for the jammed rifle, it was a freak accident. A spent cartridge had fallen into the front action, blocking the bolt from going all the way down.

"Super unlucky," Schneider said.

Schneider acknowledged the deadly truth of the situation. He and his sister barely escaped with their lives despite all the benefits of modern technology.

"We're nothing compared to these things," he said. "If you were to throw us out there with nothing, we don't stand a chance. The only way we stand a chance is with the technology and the tools."

The pure size of the animal, combined with the fact that it took seven high-powered bullets to kill it, underscored the power of nature and humanity's dependence on tools.

Schneider has realized this in the past. An avid hunter, he and his family run Stuck N The Rut, a popular YouTube hunting show. He's spent more time than most in the backcountry and has no illusions about his toughness relative to nature.

And yet, the encounter with the brown bear in Alaska drove the point home in a way nothing else had.

"It was a humbling experience in general to just have had that happen and to realize, 'OK we're not the top of the food chain,' " he said.

"When it comes down to it, we are weak. It doesn't take much for us to be hurt or injured."
My only armed encounter, so far, was in my backyard, and it wasn't with a bear. Two armed robbers had held up a grocery store in a tiny town a few miles from me. They escaped in a car and were ultimately forced to ditch the car a few hundred yards from my home and hid in the woods across the highway from my house. As the law enforcement all closed in I realized my family and I were literally in the middle of it all. One robber gave up and surrendered when the bloodhounds were released into the woods. The other held out until dusk, then ran out of the woods across the highway towards my house, where my wife, kids and mother were locked in. I was outside with a shotgun loaded with buckshot watching the law enforcement desperately try to handle the "situation". The robber, armed with a pistol, tried unsuccessfully to get into my house, then ran around the opposite side towards the rear. I met him on the opposite corner as he was trying to climb my back fence. I demanded he surrender, or I'd shoot. A (dumb) deputy hollered to me that I wasn't to do that, that was their job, at which time the robber leapt off the fence and proceeded to run across a hayfield behind my house. In an attempt to keep him in sight and not allow him to escape I ran behind him, a few yards away, keeping him in sight. The law enforcement finally decided to do something and opened fire at him from my yard. After some 40-50 rounds were expended someone finally hit him in the leg and he went down. Had he turned his pistol towards me earlier I would have undoubtedly used force on him. There was no way I was going to let him escape, and no way I was going to let him shoot me either.

It ended for the best, I guess, as he spent several years in a penitentiary. A far cry from a bear attack, but an armed encounter nonetheless.
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
....back to the question, what would be the effectiveness of a load of buck to a bear's head, under charge? I'd think it would be a charge stopper, but would like to hear of specific examples.
Try searching the newspaper, Great Falls Tribune, and there are articles about bird hunter encounters with grizzlies in Montana, and killing bears at close range with bird shot. There's a short, under twenty seconds, youtube video, 'bear charges after mountain goats', at Glacier National Park from July of 2020. It gives some idea how quick one might have to be at getting a shotgun slinged over a shoulder, into action.

There are supposedly dozens of maulings every year in Montana and Wyoming. There are articles from just a month ago of an experienced outdoors guide being attacked while fishing near Yellowstone, and dying a couple of days later. I figure if I'm hunting, I'll have a gun in my hands, but for just being out there, I've settled on keeping a .44 with heavy bullets, handy. I'm not worried about it, but a few years back, a young grizzly made the news moving through a duck hunting spot I've been to a few times. A friend in the Flathead area of MT had a backyard chicken coop torn up with claw marks eleven feet off the ground, and there were a few sightings by neighbors. The wildlife folks put out a barrel trap to try to relocate that bear, but it was hit by a pickup a few days later. But anyway, no doubt, I'm glad you and yours had a good ending.
Thanks, Craig, much appreciated.


Originally Posted by craigd
A friend in the Flathead area of MT had a backyard chicken coop torn up with claw marks eleven feet off the ground

That's impressive. As I sit here at my home computer desk I just looked up at the crown molding on my ten foot ceiling and tried to picture a bear that would stand high enough to claw one foot above that. Next time I am tempted to make a statement about being at the top of the food chain I'll likely remember that mental picture.
Gene, I'd encourage your son to try something that is fun, but at the same time provides training with the shotgun that might be life saving. It's shooting at clay pigeons from the hip. Some ranges won't allow it, but a backyard trap and a buddy are all that's needed to safely do so. It's lots of fun and it puts eye-hand coordination fully to the test. With the speed of a bear, in charge mode, there could be the possibility of not being able to get the shotgun unslung and properly mounted in time. A hip shot could be lifesaving, though certainly not the most desirable if time allowed. Even practice hip-shooting at a standard stationary silhouette would be good to ingrain the right visual pictures and muscle memory.

Once, in Argentina on a high volume dove shoot I was having an especially good afternoon, as far as hits to misses. Because of that, I was having lots of fun. I was using my trusty Beretta 687 SP II Sporting model in 20 gauge. On a lark I said to my bird boy "Ver este", and proceeded to kill the first six doves (incomers) straight, from the hip. I then couldn't hit another one, and we both had a big laugh on me. Practice like that is fun, and useful. I'd liken it to pistol practice where one has to draw and point-shoot without the luxury of the "Weaver Stance", and aiming. I was taught to practice this by a friend who served numerous tours in the Middle East as some type of special forces operative, then worked as a contractor there up until last year, when he retired and came home. My first tendency with this method, and live fire, was to shoot way low, although with good windage. A little more practice gets the round hitting up in the vitals, but it was eye opening for me just how low those first practice rounds went. When my friend pointed out how quickly an attacker can cover 21 ft. I could see the need of that type practice. There just may not be enough time for a proper Weaver stance.

Best wishes to your son. My eldest is mountain climber and hiker in AZ. I remind him often about the importance of not doing this alone, because of lions.
Stan, you are indeed a very lucky man. Not only did you survive a near death by drowning a year or so ago (freak accident-granted) but knowing the make-up of many deputies, that Barney Fife "dipity" could just as well shot you for "interferring" .. about 6 years ago here, Nov. deer season- a buck crossed the road at night right in front of my daughter's house and was hit by a passing truck, which kept going. My son-in-law called the Sheriff's 911- number- and waiting for the patrol car- the deer was lying on their front yard, still breathing, but not able to get up. The deputy told him that if my son-in;law had shot the deer to finish him off humanely, he would have to put his season tag on it to claim it, for the meat-but if the deputy finished him off, the meat would go to a public food bank- so my son-in-law put down his .30-30 and watched- the Deputy emptied his Glock into the deer's neck at close range, Jeff could see the grass clumps exploding around the deer, but as soon as the Deputy dumped his mag and reached for a fresh one, the deer got up and ran slowly away--RWTF
I realized that at the moment it went down, Francis. When those rounds started popping off in my direction I hit the deck face first and flattened myself like a hognosed snake. I told the high sheriff afterwards that he needed to see to it that his deputies spent some time on the range, that their shooting had been pitiful. And, the guy wasn't even shooting back at them.
Posted By: GLS Re: Brown bear attack in Alaska - gun in truck - 05/24/21 03:30 PM
Just this week I received an email from a friend about the border between Idaho and Washington being thick with mountain lions. Washington doesn't allow lion hunting but Idaho does. According to him, locals practice the three S's when it comes to lion safety. "Shoot, shovel and shut-up." I have friends that do the same when gators show up uninvited to their property. Gil
Actually, living about as close to the border of WA as one can, here in N ID, WA residents can hunt cougars! But WA did away, about a decade ago, of chasing cougars with dogs under much controversy. I suppose many hunters in WA now days purchase a cougar tag and manage to bag one incidental to big game hunting, with cougars being as elusive as they are.

I read the article in the Spokesman about the Bonner Ferry's hunter, he was a lucky puppy! I hunted brown/grizzly bears in AK, when I lived there and can vouch for the speed that they move. I never had any run ins with them and was thankful for that
Just let the grizzly have the horse that’s been flogged to death here.
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