I recently picked up what appears to be a French shotgun and was wondering if anybody would have information on this firearm or the maker.

What I have is:
2 barrel set 30” with beautiful Damascus barrels.

One set has a 12 GA smoothbore on the right barrel and the other barrel is slightly smaller (16 ga) and has rifling for a slug I assume. One barrel is stamped 16.5 and the other barrel stamped 17.8. Barrels are mirror.

Second set has twin 12 GA smoothbore barrels. one barrel stamped 18.2. The other is not stamped. Barrels are mirror.

The barrels have "H. Giltay" stamped on the underside and also faintly the name "Bernard" there is a name in front of "Bernard" but is unreadable.

They appear to have a Belgium proof mark and an oval with a crown above the initials EB. There is also an oval with the initials AC.

The rib is scribed "Alb. Fornes' Arqur A Strasbourg”

The stock has a hand grip safety. I have never seen anything like that.

The trigger guard has gold initials “RG” under a gold crown.

It does not appear to have a serial number on it.

Not sure this is enough info on the gun to determine age or possible value.

[img][img]https://i.imgur.com/YukIw9W.jpg[/img][/img]
[img][img]https://i.imgur.com/lyvmank.jpg[/img][/img]
[img][img]https://i.imgur.com/PTlf990.jpg[/img][/img]
[img][img]https://i.imgur.com/Jep73x4.jpg[/img][/img]
[img][img]https://i.imgur.com/jWODxGe.jpg[/img][/img]
[img][img]https://i.imgur.com/lB3j0fB.jpg[/img][/img]


Thanks for your help,

Steve

Interesting, >>H. Giltay<<. It should read >>Léopold Bernard<< but since there isn't a serial number on the lower rib it may read >>Eugène(Henri) Bernard<< or similar.

Lovely Lefaucheux platform with straighthand stock.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

What initials are in the oval low on the tubeset, >>LB<< or >>EB<<??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Does it have a Grip Safety? Looks like some odd Lever on the underside of the stock?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

There is an oval with the initials EB under a crown.

Steve

Thank you for taking the time to read my post. Yes it does have a working grip safety. I have never seen that on a shotgun.

Regards,
Steve

Alb. Fornès Arquebusiers Á Strasbourg

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Henri Eugène Bernard not Léopold Bermand then.


http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20b/a%20bernard%20henri%20eugene%20gb.htm

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

It is a Belgian Lefaucheux platform peddled by a French Firearms merchant. I don't see anything French regarding French mechanics or makers(Arquebusiers).


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

So Alb. Fornes is the gun builder? or the merchant who the gun was built for? Since Strasbourg is in France, I thought Fornes was a gun builder in France using Belgium proofed barrels.

Regards,
Steve

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Serbus,

Raimey
rse

No, it appears that it passed thru the Liège proof facility so Fornès ordered it from Liège & retailed it.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Was a grip safety something that was common during that time?
Can you offer a date range for the gun?

Also is there any significance to the gold grown and initials on the trigger guard?


Regards,
Steve

Strasbourg was part of Germany 1871-1918. Saint Etienne gunmakers bitched about Paris effete barrel makers using Belgian barrels from as early as the 1870's. It looks like this gun went further than that.

This said - beautiful percussion gun.

Thanks Argo44, I think it is a nice looking gun however it is a not a percussion gun but a centerfire hammer gun.

I had one martini too many...Sorry. Gosh... Covid, age, what to say.

But in my defense with this picture only....Darn it it looks percussion-like - the case must conceal the break - and looking at the hammers...duhhhhhhh:

No worries. I enjoy my martinis as well 😀.
I just wanted to clarify for anybody else that read the post.

Thanks for your replies. Would you have an idea for how old it is?

Are there any touchmarks on the water-table / frame? Could you pleasure us with images of any & all marks?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

It is a Henri Roux action so with the fences, marks, etc. I would hazard a wild guess of late 1870s or 1880s? The origin of that particular grip safety will more than likely narrow the date range.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I will take some pics and post tonight of all markings.

Regards,
Steve

http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20g/a%20giltay%20h%20gb.htm

Looks like Liège mechanic H. Giltay was pretty prolific during the period?


Serbus,

Raimey
rs

Took some photos during my lunch.
The water table has no markings.


Here are some close ups of the barrel markings. This is the 12 ga barrels.





Here are pics of the other barrel. 12 ga one side and the other a rifled barrel with flip up sight and the front bead which appears to be adjustable for windage.

Ah, I bet the rifled tube is for a solid projectile version of the scattergun cartridge. Is the rifling straight or helical(for want of a better term)?

Looks like a monogram on the standing breech. Could you pleasure us with a pic of it?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

With the >>Perron<< proofmark, it was made in Liege.

Looks like the inspector's mark has a crown so that puts it circa 1877.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The rifling is helical



The standing breech has no markings. I think that you see where the welding line of the insert for a better word or fake dolls head if that makes sense.







Regards,

Steve

Are the hammers non-rebounding or rebounding? That too would narrow the date too.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

They are rebounding. Interesting though is that the Perron marking is on the barrel that has the rifling on the left and smooth bore on the right. The other barrel does not have that marking.

Regards,
Steve

Not really sure but on those early central-fire breech-loaders, there was only a single proof on one tube noting proof of the whole lot? I believe that changed with the 1888 rules. If not in 1888, then for sure in 1891 followed by an addendum in 1893 forced by the hand of the Germans.


>>A Lefaucheux double-barreled shotgun would then carry these marks

a) temporary proof mark for single barrels, the intertwined EL.

b) the final proof mark of the barrels, already regulated and soldered, the ELG in "an" oval.

c:) after fitting the barrels and fitting the action, the finishing the gun, the Perron, the final proof mark is applied.<<

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

But I would have expected to see it on the water-table, but that may have been a later rules change?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thank you for all of the information! How can you keep this all straight?
I appreciate all of your the time with my gun. It’s not a high end gun but it has taken me on a journey of learning.

Thanks again for all of your help and if you think of anything else, don’t hesitate to post.

Best regards,

Steve

I am fairly confident that the encircled AC is that of Aimé Coquilhat (1854-1880 - dates registered with the Liège prof facility???) @ 1 rue des Augustins in Liège.

I do hope Dr. Hause pops in to give an ID of the pattern welded tubes.

Too there are some crown experts here too that might put a title with the Gold Crown.



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ah, we've been chewing on this stuff for 15+ years so every once in a while a Blind Hog finds an acorn?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, I'll work on info for the >>Grip Safeety<<. I well know of the German version and maybe(as typical) they lifted it from the Belgians???


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=181974&page=2

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=328939

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=427020&p=3451396

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey really really likes moules and frites.

I have seen the same exact grip safety on a Belgian SXS hammer gun. The gothic script seems to indicate the name DARRY.

That hammer gun also had an unusual action, similar to an English Daw with the cylindrical locking bolt mating with a recess under the barrels and non rebounding hammers.

tête de caboche, and I just might be a >>Cabbage Head<< too??


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

One other thing on the pattern welded tubes, Léopold Bernard of Paris was THE premier tube maker & everyone, everyone emulated him. I don't recall if or how Eugene was related, but he copied Léopold's protocol and that's why Eugene used the stamps he used.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>Re E. Bernard
While digging around the net I found the remnant of an 1865 law suit from L Bernard against the Eastern railroad company.
The law suit alleges that E Bernard was a French tradesman who moved to Liege and started marking guns with "E Bernard canonnier a Paris". The law suit also alleges that Eugene was marking anybody's gun with his name for a fee (2.50 Frs). That would explain why so many of them are around. (I found a whole bunch on naturabuy.fr vs a few real Bernard barelled guns).
Not having jurisdiction on the Belgians, Bernard sued the railroad company that transported them. He lost, but the E Bernard weapons were confiscated and his rights were confirmed.<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...rds=tradesman&Search=true#Post316390

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

In my unsolicited opinion, the gun is a "Roux Type", it has a rectangular locking lug, whereas a Roux's lug would be round. Also the German firm Meffert used a very similar grip safety, which firm was first is worthy of Raimey's research.
Mike

No lie, I am a huge fan of moules and enjoy a big bait every chance I get at a local Asian buffet. Although they, along with oysters, are bottom feeders and pickup ah some nasties, I still enjoy my fair share & a bit more. I attribute it to being hatched in Mobile??


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Anyone care to make a stab @ the correct term in French for shotgun with grip safety, or similar? I thought a Clément mechanic might be the culprit but no joy thus far. Well, if pistol grip safeties migrated to scatterguns??

https://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Clement/clement.html



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>fusil de chasse avec poignée de sécurité en stock<<

A bastard attempt mind you, but it is headed in the right direction?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Externally, the grip safety looks like a 'Manton style' that blocks movement of the triggers.
In my experience, these are the most commonly seen.

Steve comes thru in a clinch. Oh the depth of knowledge here.....





So the Belgians adopted Manton's novel addition.

[


Cheers & Serbus,

Raimey
rse

My apologies for not paying attention.
The barrels are Bernard I
Made by one of several Liege Bernards, or more likely acquired from a tube maker and just stamped 'EB'
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fMs-Mn60ei9QsRcHT5Urm_eHobzJnaDKZiP3FP0fXb0/edit

I don't find an 'AC' in the Syndicat des Fabricants de Canons de Fusil de la Vesdre so Bro. Raimey's guess is better than mine.

Wow, you guys should get together and write a book or do a podcast! So I am gathering that the Belgium gun makers stole designs, used fake barrel stamps and sold inexpensive “replicas”. I have to say that finding the Manton designed grip safety and looking at my gun it appears that my statement is correct. Kind of like what China does now 😀.

So much to learn. Does anybody want to take a stab at my gun’s value?

Regards
Steve

"fusil de chasse avec poignée de sécurité en stock"

Not bad Raimey...actually I haven't a clue an searching passionlachasse etc. nothing comes up. but here are comments on the French terms:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480959

The gun is a SxS muzzle loader so technically it should be called".
-- Fusil à percussion (percussion gun)
-- Fusil à chargement par la bouche (muzzle loading rifle)
-- Fusil de chasse juxtaposé à chargement par la bouche (SxS muzzle loading shotgun)
-- Fusil de chasse à percussion juxtaposé à chargement par la bouche (SxS muzzleloading hammergun shotgun)

The stock should be:
-- la crosse anglaise (straight stock)
-- poingee (pistol grip)

The safety should be:
-- sécurité; sûreté (safety)
-- levier de sécurité (safety lever)

So I'd hazard the following:
Fusil de chasse à percussion juxtaposé à chargement par la bouche avec levier de sécurité en dessous de la crosse anglaise.

I really wouldn't state it that way as the Chinese aren't all that smart as they steal technology @ every turn(pay the Eastern Europeans and Russians to do their hacking dirty-work) and the Belgians could make a pricepoint weapon one day & an upper rung the next and not check up, while the Chinese don't care about the Sigma/error/QA-QC and they just turn out junk all the time .

True Eugene Bernard was in it for the Benjamins but the mechanic here used a parts kit & IMPORTED the Manton Safety Grip technology to meet the whims of his client. I don't think I've seen a 2 Barrel Set that was a box of junk. The Belgians were very talented and worked for pennies so they were heavily sourced for pricepoint weapons. Really after say circa 1870, no gunmaking centre in the world could turn out quality pattern welded tubes for the price as the Belgians could. They did have pride in their work but would make what one ordered.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Argo for the effort and I sure wish I could have worked in the language of French whilst in school but I was too consumed w/ 1s & 0s and their associated protocol. It would have been most beneficial being in the oh so many French speaking provinces.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Some additional thoughts on the 'grip safety' - aka - the 'safety guard.'

The Purdey/Wyatt Patent No.4218 of 1818 blocked both the hammer and trigger. The 'Manton style,' to which
I previously referred, blocked the triggers. J.H. Walsh, author of The Sportsman's Gun and Rifle (1882)
credited Manton with the design - but there is no patent that supports his attribution. Additionally, Neal and
Back's definitive books on the Mantons make no such claim.

There were a number of designs available. The Purdey/Wyatt and the 'Manton style' used a long bar below the
trigger guard tang. The difference of their operation might not be apparent to a casual observer. Powell
used another design as well, that I can't link to a patent. It had a 1 1/4" by 1/4" rectangular piece that
substituted for the longer bar of other designs.

I have documented these safeties being installed on Powell guns as late as 1909. If you are familiar with the design
of the grip safety on a M1911 Colt - you'll note that it blocks the trigger in a manner similar to the "Manton style."

Not to be outdone, the Rossons (P.J. & C.S.) were granted Patent No.4883 in 1913 for a grip safety.

One more image to post for Steve.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I was trying to either scan or convert to jpeg & Steve beat me to it.

Thanks Steve for all the effort.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Argo--Haven't looked here in detail in some time. Good catch on Strasbourg/Germany. I spotted that and was about to post, then saw you'd already noticed.

On your translation, I might be inclined to make a minor change in word order: Fusil de chasse juxtapose a percussion . . . Probably works either way.

I thought about that Larry..we need our French friend to comment. But actually "à percussion" by definition includes "à chargement par la bouche." So it could be simplified and agree that "juxtapose" could go before the other modifiers.

Gene, simple is always better. But whenever I look at a French translation of English, it always seems to be about twice as long. Your change would make it 1 1/2 times as long.

Fab has weighed in:

Salut Argo,

"Fusil de chasse juxtaposé à percussion centrale et sécurité à la poignée". Voilà ce que l'on dit en langage courant en français.

Etant donné que c'est une percussion centrale, il n'est pas nécessaire d'écrire le mode de chargement.