Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun.

I recently acquired another Cape Gun. This makes number 6 in my collection. Although I just purchased it from a private party, I found it was listed for sale in the Rock Island Auction back in September of 2010. The only info I have is what was shown in that listing. (see pic) There are no caliber marks or proof marks and no serial number or assembly numbers. The only markings are on the barrels and both locks. I'd be interested to know the place and date of manufacture if possible. I have had a fellow suggest that the rifle caliber may be the long obsolete 11.6x82R, the Austrian / German version of the 450 bpe. A modern 450 bpe case is too large and will not fit into the chamber - it only goes in approx. 1 inch. Both the rifle and the shotgun chambers and bores are "mirror-bright" from muzzle to breech. It looks to be seldom fired, if at all.

Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.












cape gun pictures

One likely caliber would be 11.15X65R. My Sauer drilling, 1905 as I recall, is that caliber. A 2 1/2" .410 shotgun shell is a perfect fit. You may be able to use brass .410 empties to create your ammunition. I also shoot .410 shotshells in my Sauer. I can't see your links.

Austro-Hungarian for sure with the Lefaucheux platform & probably made in Wiepert but it is possibly that Poriska took a parts kit & made it.

L. Wußzinger Nachfolger, I do not recognize this firearms merchant right off.



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I can't get the photos to open up.
Mike

Hello eightbore,
Thanks for the reply.
The overall length of the cartridge is 3-1/4" - much longer than the 11.15x65R. A fellow on another forum suggested that the cartridge is an 11.6x82R. My pictures show the rifle and the chhamber cast dimensions.

I'm not sure why some can see the pictures, and others can't. this has happened before on this Forum.

Hello ellenbr,
Thanks for the reply.
I take it that you can see the pictures .. correct?

Hello ellenbr,
Thanks for the reply.
I can see the pictures just fine.

I'll try inserting a link to the photos on the original post above .......

To Buckstix
1. "L. wurzinger's Nachfolger" means "L.Wurzinger's successor"
2. Simply google "L.Wurzinger" and you will get 7 hits of L.Wurzinger guns/rifles
The most spectacular in James D. Julia spring 2011 auction ( now Morphy) sold for 9775 $.
In one of these is also the script "L.Wurzinger in Wien", so Franz Porizka took over some time his Viennese shop.
The Wurzinger guns/rifles date 1867 to 1875.
3. Check for the calibres in these hits, possibly one of these is also yours.
The Austrian gurus I knew on these old calibres are all gone.
Cheers
F.N.

Should be this cartridge: https://aukro.cz/naboj-11-6-x-82-r-450-6981778470

Kind regards,
Jani

Machine translation:
Buy a German hunting cartridge 11.6 x 82 R / 450. It was German modification of British charge 450 3-1/4 inch Express. Production started in 1879. A totally impressive cartridge with its size. Needless (no longer") authorized by 1890. I don't have Pay U. I don't send abroad.

Hello felix,
Thanks for the reply.
I appreciate the translation. It now makes it clear why that name was also on the barrel. Interesting that you mention that Werndl in the James Julia auction. I actually collect Werndl rifles, and have a similar Schuetzen Werndl, although mine is not as elaborate. I expect my rifle was made in the late 1870s up to 1880 .

Hello montenegrin,
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, that is the exact cartridge for this rifle. I'll be making some cartridges and will shoot this gun soon.

Hello Argo44,
Thanks for the reply.
I wonder what game the Austrians would be hunting with such a large cartridge.

Russians? There were Bear in the Carpathians and Trans-Sylvanian Alps...still are and they kill people every year even now,

Hello Argo44
Thanks for the reply.
I have just now checked for choke in the 16ga shotgun barrel. It is Imp cyl at .656 ... with such slight choke, only .006, erhaps it might have been intended for "ball" also.

Good eye there Mr. Neuberger and to a tip of the hat to you Jani, but I for one would expect that expertise from you.

Leopold Wurzinger, Büchsenmacher VII, Kaiserstraße 100

From an 1873 listting.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

buckstix,
See my comments in the GGCA Forum: re the corrected dimension on the chamber cast photo.
Mike

Hello ellenbr,
Thanks for the reply.
I will keep this information with the provenance folder for this gun.
Hello Der Ami,
Thanks for the reply.
As with most of my collectables, I have adapted a case for this one.



link to picture of custom case

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buckstix,
I couldn't get the photo to open up, but I saw the nice case on the GGCA Forum.
Mike

Hello Der Ami,
Thanks for the reply.

I also listed a link ... .. try that.

buckstix,
The link worked. Nice case to go with a nice rifle.
Mike

Hello Der Ami,
Thanks for the reply.

With the rifle caliber on this Cape Gun being so obsolete, and with brass for it being non-existent, and because I shoot all of my collectables, I came up with a simple solution. I rented a 450 bpe reamer for $35, and reamed the 11.6x82R chamber by hand. It took less than 30 minutes, and I now had a 450 bpe chamber. All the reamer did was to remove the sweeping taper in the middle of the chamber. That amounted to only about .010". The reamer also cut the rim thickness and diameter to standard dimensions. I have 3 other 450 bpe rifles, and tons of that brass and bullets. Tomorrow I go to the range for shooting.

buckstix,
See the comments I already wrote on the GGCA forum. At the time, I didn't know you already had 3 450 BPE's. You are still entitled to do it; but "Aw man", you could have had an 11.6x82R, there are da-n few people that have one.
Mike

A practical solution, and if it pleases the owner so be it.

I would have been inclined to modify a few cases instead of the rifle.

I've been following this with the question about why this caliber was created in the first place.

Is it because no self respecting Austrian would build a rifle for a British caliber?

Is it to prevent the .450 from being chambered due to load/pressure differences? Or bullet weight/type?

Was it to comply with some kind of legislation?

Perhaps to control ammunition supply to the maker or country?

Is this lost to history someplace or does anyone know?

In comparing the "Before" and "After" chamber dimensions, I'm just curious how reaming out the chamber to .450 BPE could accomplish REDUCING the diameter of the chamber at the case mouth from .490" to .479", REDUCING the chamber diameter in front of the rim from .550" to .545", and also REDUCING the rim thickness from .060" to .040"

A reamer that deposits metal in addition to removing it is indeed a remarkable thing!

Shotgunjones,
The gun was made before the "Mall Mart" and "Interior Net" came about, and many makers made their own reamers as well as loading the ammo for the rifles they built. This more or less insured repeat ammo sales. We complain now that many of these old rifles are not marked as to the cartridge it used. The one that made it knew what it shot, so the owner had to go back to him for ammo. It wasn't until the 1939 Proof law that German guns had to be marked by the common name of the cartridge it used.
Mike

Hello Der Ami,
Thanks for the reply.

I still have an 11.6x82R x 16ga Cape Gun. Its just able to shoot cartridges made from standard brass ... Since there were are no caliber markings anywhere to be found, it really didn't make an difference. Here's a test target ... I couldn't have done this without the "chamber improvement" ... see below ...


Hello Shotgunjones,
Thanks for the reply.

After ruining a dozen 450 bpe cases in an attempt to make just one 11.6x82R case, I called Dave at CH$D - 2years to get form and load dies.

As to the original cartridge, the following is from lancaster on a different forum ...

" .... this is the german-austrian version of the 450 3 1/4 BPE - the case follow the measurements of the older 450 BPE with coiled case http://old.municion.org/450/450Boxer.htm - - there you see it the conical base with a long cylindrical body follow this old cartridge. ... "

So it seams that later, the brass cases were made in the same shape to fit those early chambers.
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All very interesting and thank you all for the explanation and education.

It certainly does shoot.

Hello keith,
Thanks for the reply.
The illustration is an overlap using an existing 450bpe cartridge drawing - to merely illustrate the removal of the sweeping taper in the center of the existing chamber. Fortunately the rental reamer was also a "put-on" tool.

buckstix,
Since you are going to play with a lot of different rifles, it seems like it would be worthwhile for you to buy a lathe, if you don't already have one. If a 45-70 seating die( w/o stem) wouldn't work to get 450 cases to chamber, you could make a simple ring die to do it. You need one anyway for rims. I believe a lathe( and mill) is a requirement of life. Like doing what you want with your own rifle, you are entitled to decide for yourself whether you want a lathe or not.
Mike

Hello Der Ami,
Thanks for the reply.

I have a lathe, a milling machine, a tool post grinder, a drill press, etc. etc. I'm a retired gunsmith/machinist/design engineer. I've made many innovative reloading tools for obscure calibers, but for this 11.6x82r Cape Gun, it just wasn't feasible. I chose a very simple solution, because I'd rather be shooting this gun, instead of wasting a lot of needless effort to preserve a long obsolete caliber.

Well shoot, I wasted a lot of advice on someone I should have been listening to. Do you happen to have an extra steady rest or follower rest for a Clausing 5900?
Mike

Hello Der Ami,
Thanks for the reply.

I don't own a steady rest. I designed and built a special very sophisticated set-up for off-hand shooting my Big Bore Bolt Action and Double Rifles. Here's a picture of me shooting my 700 Nitro Express.

and also a you tube video ...

I have a boat cushion just like that one I use to shoot across the hood of my car...Geo

buckstix,
Good show- I'm glad to see you can still shoot heavy recoiling rifles, standing. If I do that, I can't keep my balance and will fall( I don't have a third hand for the walking stick). I had to give up shooting even the 404 Jeffery because of a plate in my neck and weird things recoil was doing. I found out I can do pretty well sitting, if I make the rest high enough to make me sit straight up, so my body rotates back with the recoil similar to standing. I found out it is faster to recover for the second shot if you don't have get up off the ground first.
Mike

Hello Geo. Mewbern,
Thanks for the reply.

Hello Der Ami,
Thanks for the reply.

I can still take the recoil, but iseems to get more as I get older. My 700 NE is a 2-step gun. You need to have room to take 2-steps back when absorbing the recoil. My 600 NE is a 1-1/2-step gun. As is also my A-Square 577 T-Rex and Ruger 600 JDJ. I've got a couple of 1-step guns also ... 500 NE & 475s & 470s & 458's, etc. ... anything below that I can keep my feet in place .. ie, 416s & 378s, & 375s.

buckstix,
You are still young though, wait until you get to be an "old fart". All kidding aside, if you start feeling tingling in your hands/arms and start dropping things, see a Dr. right away. I waited too long.
" If you wait until you need something to buy it, you have to pay too much"
Mike

Hello Der Ami,
Thanks for the reply.

And thanks for the advice.

Hello all,

I tired another load today. I loaded some 45 cal Hornady 325g Flex Tip Bullets. I got great results.

Velocities are near original 1800s velocity. A fun thump-er at 29 ft/lbs recoil.


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LINK TO 2ND PORISKA TARGET PHOTO <----

buckstix.
I still couldn't get the photo to open up, but I could see your great group on the GGCA forum, and I had a question about the foam filler over there.
Mike

Hello Der Ami,

I added a link to the target.

Thanks,
I added a general comment Re: fillers in the GGCA Forum.
Mike

Hello all,

Well, I got around to testing the 16ga barrel with 1oz lead balls today. I found that a "stiff" 3-dram load worked best. Lower velocities didn't do very well. The black powder load really "smoked". Here are today's results. The first shot went high - the other 4 were right-on with a 6-oclock hold. This should be great for hunting whitetail deer this Fall.
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16ga-ball-poriska-4

16ga-ball-poriska-2

Buckstix,
Great, and good on you for working the load out.
Mikr

**** UPDATE ****

I made it out to the range to pattern the 16ga shotgun barrel. I loaded a 3-dram load of 1oz of 7-1/2 = 338 pellets. The shotgun choke of this barrel measured .005", which is a SKEET choke. A skeet choke is recommended for close dove and woodcock hunting. Target is shown. With this result using shot, and the result using ball, and using the rifle, I'd be happy to take this gun into the field and test it on any size game, from dove, to deer, to boar or bear.



pattern from shotgun test