I've had to re-create this thread twice because I managed to fat-finger my keyboard somehow.....expletive deleted!!!! Don't remember this being a problem in the older system here. Going forward, when the mood strikes to write something I'll be saving in !@#$%$$$## stages (more expletives deleted). One last time.... I've never had much time for target guns for a number of reasons, the biggest being financial (to be truthful) but also because as a more non-standard shooter (southpaw and central vision) I'd found that stackbarrels don't much work for me. I also had largely come to the conclusion that clay games were the realm of softer and older folks who wouldn't (or couldn't) hunt. Fast forward to yesterday, which found me strolling along at a local club with two associates, blazing away. Now, I was the baby of the bunch by at least a few years but clearly...I'm fast on my way to becoming a codger-in-training. I'd even managed to show up with a mostly empty (only one set of barrels) in a 2- barreled gun case, In my defense, I'd had several distractions (a few Margareta's for dinner the night before, combined with a dead primary SUV 1st thing in the morning (because of an unclosed passenger door)) which does tend to disturb my inner-peace, but I digress. Instead of the small-gauge event we'd loosely planned, I ending up shooting a borrowed and monstrous Turkish 12-bore target gun w/no safety and 32-inch, ported and choke-tubed barrels. I fit me very poorly (mostly because it had been adjusted for a severely righthanded shooter) but to my surprise, I seemed to shoot it fairly well. There was a corporate event at the range that we'd been unaware of, so we were confined to the back-half of the course where all the targets were clearly....more difficult. No matter, I some how managed to solve most of those target situations with aplomb. I'd hate to have to lug this beast over hill and dale, and I'd like to think that my standard Spanish 12-bore side-lock would have served me almost as well but....the expression about "horses for courses" does seem to apply here. Is there such a thing as a "reasonable" target gun out there for us south paws? And by reasonable, I mean seriously dirt-cheap as I'm unconvinced that I'll ever get much use out of it.
No, it would not have Lloyd. You would been beat up with a game gun like you describe. Weight is your friend on a Sporting Clays gun, assuming it's in the correct places. Sounds like you've been bitten.
Are you talking trap, or other stuff? Given your parameters, for trap, it is going to be hard to beat an older BT99, Lloyd. Hell, there are take-off stocks for sale for the things on the sites, that could be whittled to a bit closer to your dimensions. Seems like 1-2K would get you to look like a regular on any club field, not cheap, but, cheaper than most anything else.
Well....maybe. After 100 shells it hardly felt like I'd done anything, except maybe have a good walk. My mid-70s aged shooting companion has a little cart to shove things around on (both the guns and the ammo) making even that bridge-timber seem fairly portable. My Arrieta does seem to leave me a bit battered after that many shots. This CZ I was shooting wasn't nearly as badly built as I had expected. Any feedback here on the seriously cheap options I might have? At $100 a pop for both the targets and the shells, I can't see this as being a regular activity. Maybe 10 years ago, but not now given the world we're currently occupying.
Ted: this was sporting clays, which at least begins to mimic real hunting conditions. I guess I'd thought target guns were target guns...how silly of me.
Paul Roberts persuaded me to buy a second hand B. Rizzini Sporter, and I haven’t regretted the decision. You could do worse if you can find a tidy one second hand. B. Rizzini supply spare stocks, and their barrels interchange without gunsmithing.
I think if your buddies are regulars on the sporting clays range, ask them to keep on the watch for any club member or aqaintance guns that become available, and consider them on an individual basis. I would not imagine or hope that it would have cross usefulness in the field, except maybe for blind hunting.
Also, it was a great thing that you could find shells, but that might not be regularly so. Maybe, build your stash when you can and not wait for the gun if you figure it's happening anyway. Maybe, shoot your field guns for now, and possibly a better value will come with some patience, good luck with it.
Going with a used gun can drastically change the cost of a target gun. Clay shooters are notorious for trying to buy a higher score by swapping guns, many of which may be only broken in good. For example, my first Perazzi was an Ithaca imported MX 8 that I got for $1800, about 16 years ago. I shot it for a year or two and had the opportunity to buy a Winchester imported MX 8 with much less usage for $2550, AIR. I'm still shooting it. Bargains come along from time to time. The trick is to have enough expendable cash on hand at any time to not have to pass on a bargain when it comes along. For me that means not shopping around for guns to buy at "market prices".
To educate myself, I detoured through both Cabelas and Sportsmans Warehouse on my way to Costco today. Zero ammo (at least shotgun) anywhere. Guns, other than the black stuff and handguns, were in short supply too. My fear is that I'm a day or two late to play these shotgun games with any frequency. I'll haunt some of my older buddies but....just dont know.
What I'm hearing from the grapevine is that Purdeys (and many other high-end items, fancy bamboo rods, boats, RVs, even watches)) are selling briskly these days. Endless speculations as to the cause of all that, but my more well-heeled friends have clearly made a note of it.
I did price out that CZ lender I was shooting yesterday and they are almost "dirt cheap", so....more looking around I suppose. I could always peddle the pile of some of my inherited (and largely unused) long guns here and build something of a war chest. God knows I need the space in manland.
Sorry Mr. Fox, done in by spell-check yet again. I made these most recent versions with Patron Silver and found them to be quite satisfying.
A dirt cheap clays gun? Nothing at all wrong with a Rem 1100 or something like a Winchester SX3 clays version. Last I looked, they were still pretty available in the secondary market. Must have an O/U? Find an old Citori field gun. Not too expensive and they run almost forever. Want a dedicated clays O/U that is not too pricey? Find a Ruger Red Label Sporting Clays in 12 or 20 with 30" barrels. I have one in 20 and I prefer it to my 687 (as a shooter, not as a looker).
My sporting clays shooting partners largely shoot side by side field guns by choice. They are high scoring shots to a man. Your Arietta wears you down because you are shooting ammunition too heavy for the game and the gun. My friends shoot one ounce or 7/8 ounce 12 and 20 gauge loads at 1200 fps. They can be shot all day without a recoil problem. Remember, you are not doing this for a living and a missed bird at longer range is not the end of the world.
Used k32 is a hell of a gun for leftys as stocks were usually neutral. Bohler barrels, great mechanical triggers. Often in 32". 30 inch 8.5lb gun for 2k ish not uncommon.
Browning CXS is a good starter-1500
ATA Turkish clone of beretta 680 series for under 1k
No apology needed- anything like a spell checker is a mystery to me. FYI- the Margarita was named after Hemingway's 3rd wife, Martha Gellhorn.invented at the Floridita (little flower) Bar in Havana, circa 1939-- Colorado- love to have fly fished there, when I was fly fishing all over Montana-I got hooked on top drawer cane fly rods in the 1980's-- glad to hear the market is still solid for them-after I'm gone, son-in-law will sell them for my "estate", as it were. The Denver Wright & McGill fly rods were equal in quality to the pe-fire H.L.Leonards (IMO) and Stan (now Steve) Bogdan's fly reels better than Walkers, Vom Hofe's and Hardy Perfects, again, IMO. Do you fly fish by chance. I hear that you need the landowner's permission to float the rivers in CO- not the case in MT-- anyway, sounds like you have an appreciation for the finer things in life- Tight Lines-- RWTF
Fwiw, I'm pretty sure Lloyd is looking for a $700 gun at the most, and hopes he doesn't find it. When someone says "dirt cheap", they usually mean dirt cheap. Two big dump-truck loads of good dirt is now that much, delivered. JR
Mr. Roberts is right, a $700 gun would be torture. I've got an 870 express or two (certainly heavy enough) I could use but I am afflicted by the two tube thing here as well. I'm also a southpaw, which further complicates things. I did manage to locate my old Pacific rotary press (366?) that my elk hunting buddy used for the Boy Scouts. All that remains is finding the rolling ingredients which seem to be in short supply as well these days. Old Brownings and Rugers aside, there seems to be lots of options as I cast my eye over the vastness of the internet. I haven't even begun to troll through the few used guns shops we have here. It's fun to have something to look for so I'll enjoy the process. Not sure that time is exactly on my side, but I'm in no hurry. I suppose that once I get the gun, I'll need a cart too, and perhaps some of the lovely attire?
Mr. Fox: Before Wright & McGill took over there was the Goodwin Granger company, and those fly rods dominate my arsenal here (along with a few select Heddons). I even have an Edward's quad just to keep things diverse. I've owned a number of older Hardy reels (& still have a bunch of the newer ones) but have settled on pre-war (30s) Pfluegers to keep my blue collar cane in good company. I even use silk lines on occasion. Fly fishing in Colorado has suffered from all of the growth along the Front Range to the point where I now mostly go to Wyoming. My problem is that I remember how good it used to be.
The Miroku OU's (and sxs as well, if you don't mind being odd man out and shooting a sxs at SC) are very reliable and very good buys on the used market. Likewise, you might also pick up either an Ithaca-imported SKB or a Citori, older versions without choke tubes. You will struggle to find anything longer than 28" barrels, and chokes will often be M/F which you'll want to open some for targets. I have no problem shooting 100 sporting clays with 16ga sxs that weigh 6 1/2# or less, although that's mostly with 7/8 oz reloads, using some 1 oz factory loads for longer targets. Any of the guns I recommended above will work fine for you all day shooting 1 oz 12ga target loads.
Laying all jokes beside. Take a look at the Rizzini sporters. The one with the sideplate action fully engraved looks great as well as their new one that copies the Perazzi. Yildiz also is making a Perazzi clone that looks great and is a super deal. There are tons of videos on You Tube about them. Check them out.
The Miroku OU's (and sxs as well, if you don't mind being odd man out and shooting a sxs at SC) are very reliable and very good buys on the used market. Likewise, you might also pick up either an Ithaca-imported SKB or a Citori, older versions without choke tubes. You will struggle to find anything longer than 28" barrels, and chokes will often be M/F which you'll want to open some for targets. I have no problem shooting 100 sporting clays with 16ga sxs that weigh 6 1/2# or less, although that's mostly with 7/8 oz reloads, using some 1 oz factory loads for longer targets. Any of the guns I recommended above will work fine for you all day shooting 1 oz 12ga target loads.
SKB SxS are being bought by cowboy shooters who then have the barrels chopped, the action slicked up and sometimes convert the inertia trigger to mechanical triggers. I doubt there are going to be very many inexpensive SxS SKB's to be found.
For a new SxS under $1000, I think the entry level CZ is about the only SxS. I've seen them as low as $599 + sales tax and I was impressed at the build quality on the one I bought. Certainly far better than a Stoeger or used Stevens 311, which are the only other inexpensive SxS I've seen recently. I do think that the CZ double might be a little light for sporting clays or any other shooting sport where you might fire 100+ shells a day.
Mr. Brown: The Mirokus are great guns and good values that would likely serve with distinction, as would many others O/Us (SKB, ATA, Yildiz, etc.). I actually have a heavier CZ SxS boxlock that I bought for my son last year to shoot ducks with. Combining that with 1 ounce loads should work nicely. As Mr. Roberts surmised earlier, I'm evaluating being "bitten" by this new (at least to me) distraction and the reality of shouldering yet another shooting hobby in the present political & economic climate. No matter, I'm confident that it will all work out. I just have to decide what suits me.
Mr. Nelson: You are correct. I was being overly critical of something I clearly don't know much about. You can take the boy out of the country...
Laying all jokes beside. Take a look at the Rizzini sporters. The one with the sideplate action fully engraved looks great as well as their new one that copies the Perazzi. Yildiz also is making a Perazzi clone that looks great and is a super deal. There are tons of videos on You Tube about them. Check them out.
None of which are $700 guns........ all jokes Aside.
There are a ton of post WW-II Merkel's, Sauer's, Simson, Husqvarna's, BRNO's coming out of Europe right now that are quite reasonable. Many are in questionable condition but there are some very serviceable ones to be had. Most are 28" = or- and choked Full and Tighter Yet, but that's not a problem. I picked up a pair of Hungarian FEG's w/ejector for under $500 for the pair and are very reliable.
Pre 1966 Superposed, K-32, Miroku, all available in 30", all available under $1500. These three would be my choices. My 30" K-32 cost me $775, my 32" Miroku cost me $1000, I only buy minty Superposed, so they are a bit higher.
There is a Lames Spa 801 O/U trap for sale on gunbroker no reserve open offer 475.These were imported from Italy ,I believe maker was P Faverzani 30 inch tubes F/IM
There is a Lames Spa 801 O/U trap for sale on gunbroker no reserve open offer 475.These were imported from Italy ,I believe maker was P Faverzani 30 inch tubes F/IM
I very briefly owned a Lames O/U in the late 1970s. Bought it at a Woolco, of all places. I think I paid $150 for It at the time. It was too heavy to hunt with and I quickly swapped it off for something else,’although I can no longer remember what.
It was a pretty nice gun for the money, although not the right tool for the task as I didn’t shoot skeet or trap at the time.
At the price indicated, that would be a pretty good buy.
The "target gun" is the least expensive component in the competition arena. I have 100,000 plus registered ATA targets, many of my fellow shooters claim around $1.00 per target as travel, ammo, day fees and all the supporting costs are added in. In 30 years of shooting I have maybe 5 different trap guns that were used specifically for competition. If you are just making empty shells at the range it saves a lot of money.
The "target gun" is the least expensive component in the competition arena.
Amen.
I estimate I've shot at 56K targets with my $2550 MX 8. That's 560 rounds of sporting. $2550 divided by 560 equals $4.55 per round for the gun cost. At an average of $5 per box for shells, and $25 per round for targets, and $45 in mileage costs (to and from) for each round, I've spent roughly $90 per round in other costs besides the gun cost. I'd say that puts the cost of a good target gun into perspective. And no one should be fooled, having a really good target gun makes a difference. JMO,YMMV.
The very point I was making in my post. Don't buy a hunting gun to shoot lots of targets. Buy a target gun that has had an easy life. K-32, Superposed low mileage, Miroku, also low mileage. My number one choice would be a 682 Beretta, also low mileage.
He ain't gonna shoot a lot of targets, guys. I mean, dang. JR
Sometimes, these things snowball, and take on a life of their own. Lloyd is pretty spry, and I could see him shooting 3-5 days a week, if that is what he wants to do. He ain’t gonna’ work, forever.
The disconnect seems to be target gun, and dirt cheap, used in the same sentence. Somebody up there, mentioned a gas gun, like an 1100. That gets you more than one shot, single sighting plane, easy recoil, and, pretty close to dirt cheap. When Lloyd decides to step up to a gun that isn’t dirt cheap, he’ll be ready.
Buy that guy a Blue Ribbon.
Best, Ted
____________________________________________ The beer, Lonny, not tobacco.
1100s are easy to shoot, less easy to keep shooting. I was given a brand new one on my 16th b'day. I terrorized doves and quail with it at first, then over a few years bought two more barrels for it and used it for ducks and deer, back when we used to run deer with dogs. Then, I began to shoot sporting clays with it. I had learned how to maintain a 1100, but they will sustain just so many rounds, then they are toast, and will need extensive repairs to keep them going. I shot mine at sporting until the magazine tube gave up the ghost and came out of the action. Sent it off to be resoldered, and reblued. Shot it at sporting some more until magazine tube came out again. Had it repaired again and put it in the safe, where it resides ...........retired.
They are fine for occasional rounds of clays, but they will not hold up to really hard use, in my opinion based on my experience. In their favor, they are one of the easiest guns to shoot well that I have ever found. By well, I mean a high percentage of hits to shots fired. But, maybe mine just fit me well enough.
Years ago, Hastings sold 32” barrels for Browning A5 shotguns. Hmm. You could look the part with the loooong barrel, and A5s are sort of thick on the ground at the moment. Not a gas gun, but, recoil with 1 Oz loads out of a long action semi auto with that tube would be nonexistent. Would probably still fit the dirt cheap part of the equation. All our A5s seem to run pretty well, all of them are 60+ years old.
Beretta A300. New: $650 or less (black synthetic) - $950 (sporting clays model), with a few versions in between. Proven gas system and adjustable stock shims. Think of it as the shotgun version of a Glock, which a friend of mine used to say came with zero pride of ownership. But they work...
He wants an o/u, but never mind that. Keep on recommending... JR
I guess I read the “Well, maybe” answer to your assumption about an O/U, back on page one, as leaving a little room for ingenuity, especially considering one of the parameters was dirt cheap.
Regretfully, no, Ted. I'm not much on going cheap on any kind of gun. The old salesman's adage "quality is remembered long after price is forgotten" hold very true with firearms. One exception right now is the Turkish semi-autos like the Citadel line. True bargains. JR
Great suggestions all, my thanks for the well-considered input! This is a new game for me, one I truly know very little about. I certainly have my biases towards doubles, but everything else is open to consideration. After a few days of internet searches and even some local gunshop visits I know a lot more than I did when all this started. As seems to be now-normal in the gun world, the options are nearly endless. New guns have come onto the market in the last few years that seem, at least initially, to be very good values but....enough time hasn't passed to fully determine if they really are. I'm also faced with the present realities of recent political change severely affecting the core economics of shooting (and possibly gun ownership itself). That causes me to approach this whole process with even more than my normal deliberation.
I don't generally just throw money at a situation and expect to be happy with the results. Hearsay evidence is happily accepted and considered, as well as other anecdotal input, but... I already am familiar with many of the time-honored gunmakers being mentioned here and know from first-hand experience that their products are genuinely worthy of most of the praise being heaped upon them. It is very likely that, in the end, I'll do the safe thing and go with a known entity. But....I may have to get there in a roundabout fashion. I'm sure I'll have lots of questions before I'm done.
Lloyd, I been thinking about your posting. I am sure you want to keep a certain "cool" factor to your shotgun addition. Find a Remington Model 32, TC or field version. The prices have not really gone up much in the last few years. I love to shoot my first year TC (w/2 triggers) for trap, AND I look and feel very cool doing it.
I can’t think of any $700 o/u target guns, maybe a clapped out Citori special sporting clays edition. Occasionally you can stumble upon a longer barreled SKB field gun.
Probably the finest gun you’ll find in that price is a later production Winchester Super X-1
My left-handed requirement tends to limit my options just a bit. But even with that, I have found several well-used $750 range guns that would likely work. What I'm faced with now is risking some money on a relatively unknown maker or going with a much safer bet. "Dirt Cheap" as it turns out seems to range from $750 to about $1,500. After that, the sky's the limit. Hard-used Citoris, Berettas, Kreigoffs (and even Perrazzis) are available locally, but most look like they've had very tough lives and the prices they command aren't really very attractive. For many of these guns, it feels like you're just paying for the name. SKB makes a lefty sporter that looks to be almost perfect for my perceived needs. CZ, Yildiz, ATA, and others are making some fairly respectable entry-level sporting guns and YouTube is loaded with their reviews. Tristar even makes a pretty wild looking sporting clays gun (the TT-115) that is so different from anything I've ever shot that I'm frankly... intrigued. "Volume shooting" is something that I've never considered before (for all the reasons I've mentioned above) so it's fun to explore something new. The idea of an older Model 32 Remington is intriguing, from a nostalgic perspective, but even those guns aren't inexpensive any more (at least for decent examples) and I'm still fighting the left-handed challenge with them as well. It seems that being "late to the party" has some advantages after all, at least in light of all these newer options. Fun to contemplate, if nothing else.
One warning about later made Browning O/U(s). If they've had a lot of rounds through them they will soon need rebolting. I've seen way too many shooting with a rubber band around the wrist and top lever to help prevent it from partially opening on the first shot. And, I've known of many more than that that have been sent back to Browning for rebolting.
Flame away. Just reporting what I've seen over the last 20 years.
Almost forgot this- I have fished in Wyoming, when Mae and I and our youngest daughter visited Yellowstone, 2 summers after the 1998 fires that raged there- One early evening, on the Firehole, a cub reporter from the Gazette came upon me casting and asked if he could snap some fotos-"Sure, I said"-- I was fishing my favorite 6 wt. rod- a Merrick-Stoner 8'6" one tip (took this same rod with Hardy Perfect reel up to the Bow River in Calgary 2 years before-I managed to catch and release 2 nice fish, on a Dave's hopper--when he asked me my name and where I lived, for the article in the paper, my 'smart ass" side came out- I told him my name was Bernie Schweinfurt, from Princeton NJ-- bingo!!!
If you want a really good gun cheap, look for an old Perazzi Comp-1 trap gun. They are the older type guns, but still really good guns and cheap for what they are. Still more than $700 though. I agree with the other guys, if $700 is the limit, go automatic.
One warning about later made Browning O/U(s). If they've had a lot of rounds through them they will soon need rebolting. I've seen way too many shooting with a rubber band around the wrist and top lever to help prevent it from partially opening on the first shot. And, I've known of many more than that that have been sent back to Browning for rebolting.
Flame away. Just reporting what I've seen over the last 20 years.
What are you doing making a statement like that?! Oh and don't forget the issue with the Browning lower firing pin for the last couple of decades. When do you suppose they will get that finally figured out? Been held up shooting in different venues by that and FTF than any all other guns. Combined.
Lloyd you couldn't have picked the worst time to wake and smell the coffee. Because of ammo and reloading components not being available. But don't give up, keep trying each and every gun you can. The TT-15 (it is not TT-115) turkish made Tristar, erh nicknamed the Bi-star on Trapshooters.com is not going to be the most reliable gun you can get. You don't have to get the best but you want something reliable. But more importantly something that fits you. Period. As mentioned the cost of the gun is nothing compared to the cost of ammo.
My youngest son 15 years ago was the Mn. ATA Class Runner Up at Alex with one of my B. Rizzini guns, we modified it for Trap. As mentioned the cost for registered ATA was ~$1 a round and is even more now. But you are shooting SC to have fun. Oh and welcome, about time
Olaf does exist in real life. I have a picture of him.
Now that is a Duck Tower. At Horse and Hunt where they hold National SC shoots and FITASC. I shoot for fun and my friends do too. We are serious but having fun is the most important part of the game. And most of my friends shoot SxS guns.
In addition to hard core target guns. But we download payloads for the lighter SxS guns on clays. Right now going to be hard for you to do that. Next Saturday going to start off my SC year by shooting with a friend that is coming down from Silver Bay, Mn. for his brothers funeral and shoot at Caribou. We will be shooting SxS guns. After buying the buggy for SC didn't leave much left over for SxS target guns and that is my lowly Winchester 23, but have been adding to the collection. REALLY fond of the Dickinson Sporting guns, which are made in Turkey by AKUS and have one each in 12 and 20.
They work well. For me.
Take your time. Shoot every gun you can get your hands on. But most importantly have fun. Good luck, and take your time. And enjoy the journey.
CI: I'm in it for the fun, period. And I don't doubt that the gun is the least expensive part of it. Appreciate the heads-up on the "Bi-Star", kind-of I figured that the low end guns would have lots of issues but... I love to find the rose in the thorns. That Dickenson looks like great fun! I should look into one of those too. Also, what is that long-barreled box lock in the 1st rack pix, 2nd from right? I'm guessing it has the weight to sop-up loads of punishment as well.
While I'm at it, what other sxs gun are popular with your buddies for clays? Anything big and solid with long tubes should fit the bill I suspect, as long as it fits the shooter as well. I'm normally not a single trigger guy but in this application I would think it should be perfect. And....big, heavy, 12 boxlocks are wayyyy out of style these days so that might be a great solution for me here.
Lloyd the middle gun is a Winchester 21 that has been restored and restocked. The gun to the left of it is also a Win 21, first year that has also been restocked and restored. They are both 30" but the LOP on the middle gun is long. Those guns are spendy, very spendy!
My friends own and shoot pretty everything across the board out there. Most of us reload and download to lighter loads when using hunting guns for clays. To get into a target SxS at a reasonable price with a reliable gun I think it is hard to beat a 12 ga. BSS with 30" barrels. If they fit you. Some are non selective triggers but that is a non issue for me. One less thing to think about. As you mentioned the 12 ga. guns are usually heavier and demand is not as great as it is for sub gage guns.
Nothing wrong with a semi auto either as your main clays gun. In a SA wouldn't hesitate to get anything from a Tristar G2 up through Beretta A400. And the G2 is right where your initial price was. Especially if a person was used to a pump gun. To be honest seems like most people shoot a single barrel better than doubles, no matter which way they are stacked. As long as the gun fits you, that is key. Most shooters will be glad to let you try their gun out on a station if you ask them. Don't be afraid to ask!
With you being left handed it is even more critical if you can try before you buy. Most of the semiauto guns out there now have shims that you can adjust the gun for fit. Including fitting cast for a lefty. Just a thought.
CI: I thought those two guns were 21s, but I just wasn't sure. Very nice! The BSS suggestion is an excellent one. Over the years I've seen (& sold) several large, long and heavy boxlocks with single triggers that I knew were well-made but just didn't fit my personal model for hunting (unless I was thinking about waterfowl). The non-tox situation sort-of obviated my interest in those guns over the years but I did admire the better made versions. I know the autos are very popular but....I just can't warm up to them. I'll either find a good intro stackbarrel or I'll find the appropriate boxlock to fit to my purposes.
Lloyd, there's one that I forgot to mention, the Valmet. Same lockup at the Kreighoffs and Remingtons. There have been many of them made and sold, they were also in production under the name Tikka, and now, apparently, Marocchi. Machine made guns, but held to such close tolerances that barrels will often interchange with no need for fitting. I owned and shot a 412ST for years (32" barreled), but they're readily available in other barrel lengths. Very, very tough guns. My friend Charlie Boswell, who developed and founded the CompNChoke line of choke tubes shoots one exclusively at clays. He owns a Kreighoff, has owned a Perazzi, in fact just about every target O/U in existence. But, he shoots the Valmet better than any of them.
Evidently, a Marocchi 612 can be ordered with double triggers at the list price of $1500. I can't speak for the quality of the Marocchi, but the design is unquestionable in durability.
Two friends shot Valmets for years, high volume. One shot the International Skeet circuit, did so well that Stoeger sent him a backup gun, free of charge. They didn't want my friend to break his gun at a shoot and not have a backup. I don't think he ever needed it.
Is there any satisfaction in having a quality, left handed, target gun sitting in the safe, that you can’t afford to shoot as intended?
I can’t help but notice at our club, that the families that bring their kids out to enjoy breaking some clay targets, aren’t out there week-in and week-out. They come out with Hunter grade shotguns whenever they feel like they want to have a fun afternoon together.
CZ: Well, with the current ammo situation that is exactly what is holding me a bay, just a little bit. Truly the source my reticence so-far. Dedicating (relatively) big resources for a gun that can or will be only used sparingly just doesn't make a lot of sense at the moment. Easing into these waters carefully, more-so than normal. It's not like I don't have other options.
Stan: We had a Valmet or two in my time at MW Reynolds and they were very interesting units. That sliding hood over the breech, much like the Remington 32s (& the French design that Remington pilfered that I can't now-recall) is what I remember of them. Don't think I've ever seen a dedicated LH gun from them, but who knows?
Truthfully, of the three clubs that I am a member of, the only clubs where the children are raised in a competitive target shooting environment, are the children of business owners.
We did have one kid who was a national trap phenomena, that his father I had received a considerable settlement and took early retirement.
Pretty much the rest of all the young people come in with a parent, shoot a little bit in the spring, a little bit at the end of summer, maybe some in September, but that’s it. It’s actually quite a joy to see the young men, never women, come back with their fathers to shoot after they have gone off to college. It’s nice to see the young men growing into manhood, and continuing to enjoy the shooting scores.
What I’m saying in no way changes how much fun it is, or questions of the nobility of entering the shooting sports, I’m just pointing out that for most working folks there’s a heavy dose of reality involved about the money side of it. It’s an expensive hobby, and current circumstances have made it worse.
Lloyd, Petrik. I think the Petrik came first, then the Remington. To a very large degree, the French Petriks are light, well balanced hunting guns with double triggers. Not saying they can’t run heavy, but, usually, they don’t. The Bruchets were building them for a time, and for some reason moved away from that to a Blitz action O/U that, to me, was a sad excuse of a hunting implement.
This week, I have been taking stock of the guns around the place. There are many, the remains of two collections that were left to me after the death of friends and family, and my own accumulation. It is pretty evident that my days of shooting as a southpaw are behind me, and my efforts to shoot right (so to speak) aren’t really coming to fruition as I had hoped. 50 years of muscle memory is hard to overcome. I’m not saying I am going to quit, but, I do believe I am at the point where I need to hire some help. My best hunting arm, the restocked Darne R10, a gun that cannot be changed without new wood, a gun with 20+ seasons of use, won’t fit me, and likely will never fit me again. I also have a hell of a time manipulating the action of a Darne with my right hand, a problem aggravated by some recent arthritis in both of them. I have a lot of years running big folders and cutters in commercial and trade binderys. The chickens are here. Coupled with the above is the fact I have lattice in the remaining right eye, and an increased risk for a detachment of the retina, the same thing that brought me here with my left eye, in that eye. Recoil needs to be considered, and dealt with, to help keep that risk in check.
Slowly, the Ithaca pumps, and auto shotguns are being converted back to right handed safeties. But, the changes to come are sobering.
I know it is a rare thing Ted but have you considered a cross over stocked double? Left shoulder using the right eye. I looked for one for several years and just found one on a recent Holt's Auction. Still waiting for it to arrive and it has a cracked stock to deal with then sad to say. But the stock repairs looks straight forwards and if I shoot it well I can always have a new one duplicated. I have had to learn how to shoot going from right handed to left handed and then back again after several year. Mine was to cure a flinch problem that had just about forced me to stop shooting.
Sorry to hear you're not getting long well with learning to shoot with the other eye, Ted. I don't know how you feel about .410s, but they would solve the other eye issue, dealing with recoil. They'll break clays, kill small game and .........as showed us some years ago by Chuck Heald, wild pheasants. New loads take turkeys out like a direct hit by lightning. Non-tox loads are available and, while I have not done so yet, I know they would take woodies and teal cleanly at proper range. Recoil with 1/2 oz. loads is just about non-existent. I know shells have always been higher priced than other gauges, but if it meant shooting shotguns or not I'd just have to bite the bullet, pardon the pun.
I know none of this deals with your struggle to "change sides", but if you could work that out, then a .410 might keep you shooting with the boy a lot longer. And, I'll bet the prospect of having to stop doing that is one of the things that's bugging you the most.
Thanks Ted, Damon Petrick was it. I've only seen the one and even as a fairly plain-version it was pretty spectacular. Easily the best O/U birdgun I'd ever run across. I believe it was a 2-trigger sub-gauge gun as well (a 20) and probably weighed about 5 1/2 lbs. It was actually pretty reasonable and I truly coveted it (even tried to secure it for Ron) but... it didn't last long. Funny...look here https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...french/damon-petrik.cfm?gun_id=100911818
Still fighting that bedamnedable eye issue eh? And now arthritis....wish I had words. I know .410s have their fans, but I remain unconvinced. I'd be looking for either a right-handed 28 or a 20. I guess we'll need you to try my little 28 Dickenson on that .410 frame next Fall.
When I had to start dealing with my bad shoulder and posterior vitreous detachment in the right eye, I went with a Rem 1100 .410 3", and had my smith drill out the gas port to cycle 2-1/2" loads. That is just about the lightest recoil that you could come up with, and kills doves and skeet just fine. Fortunately, I was able to work my way up to other guns and loads, and now I shoot Win SX3s in 12 and 20 with light loads that those guns cycle reliably. I'd rather shoot the old guns, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
Should’ve learned to trade those puts Should’ve learned to trade those calls (Money for nothin’)
Check out PCP’s Ted. Sit out in the back yard with a cooler of PBR and a pack of Chesterfields and shoot Starlings and English Sparrows. Make you feel like a kid again.
__________________________________ Maybe get a blister on your little finger Maybe get a blister on your thumb (Trading options...that ain’t workin’)
Thanks for the kind words and thoughts. A crossover stock is not for me. The .410 thing I get, but, that isn’t for me, either. I don’t need NO recoil, just have to be aware that my 6-6 1/2 lb 12s need to be fed sensible loads, and I should (and, do) practice with heavier guns. I’d get tired of watching roosters flush out at 30 or so yards, and not taking a shot with a .410. Somebody up there commented on how most seem to shoot a single barrel gun better than a double of either sort, and as much as I hate it, that is true for me, as well. The A5s, an old M1 safety standard 12, wearing a 28” solid rib barrel, and a home brewed 1952 standard, wearing a stalker stock set, and a Hastings screw choke barrel, have been the only bright spots of late, but, it isn’t a consistent thing, just yet. With the Browning’s set for light loads, and a heavy barrel, the guns are kittens at the club, using garden variety trap loads. The barrel shuffling back and forth seems to level out the peak of the recoil. I would prefer to hunt with a double, but, I struggle with the new sight picture, again, it is alien to what I have done for 50 years. If I have to hunt with a single barrel gun, then, that is what I will do. There are worse things in life than using a 12 gauge A5 to hunt grouse and pheasants.
I shoot trap or skeet for a single reason, to get some practice for bird hunting with friends and family, over a dog. If I didn’t own a dog, I probably wouldn’t hunt, it is that important to me. I understand guys leave the field and often end up as regulars at their club, but, I’m not there yet. I do need to hire a good coach. I do need to practice.
It is warming up, and I’ll get some more time in at the range, less than a mile from my house, fortunately.
Next to Stevie Ray Vaughn, my favorite guitarist, and also composer of up-beatrock. Money 4 Nothin' is Numba 1- except I never heard the business about "Puts and Calls" clearly, as you did- Heck, I'm still trying to decipher the part about having to "Flintstone those micro-wave ovens, and have to move those Color TV's-- oh well, someday I'll get it -maybe even figure out what a "Duchin in the light" means in Springsteen song-That being : "Blinded by the Light".. Maybe Peter Duchin, or Eddie??? I assume puts and calls are terms in stud poker or Russian roulette, right? Please tell me that doesn't mean things like the late Bernie Madoff was schlepping-- Be wary, be very wary--RWTF
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