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Posted By: Lloyd3 OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/06/21 10:26 PM
A bit of a rant (please forgive me). Just abandoned an attempt to have my teenage son hunt big game with me here in Colorado next year. Tonight is the deadline and nobody's answering the phone at the Division of Wildlife (perpetual busy signal all afternoon). Was creating an account for him online yesterday when I noticed that his CID number (customer ID number) wasn't accurate (missing 2 numbers). After several attempts to correct the number (which is linked to his hunter's safety number and the requisite "preliminary license" needed to apply for big game which we, of course, bought in person a few days ago) I was forced to try to start over, except that the system wouldn't let me in again, saying he already had an account and no new access would be allowed. Even new password attempts were rejected. Gee Whiz! How did we ever get to this point? We even went to where we'd bought his "preliminary" license earlier today and tried to fix the mess there but... no dice. He's got a lesson tonight (cancellation would be $100) and he opted out of the long drive to downtown Denver to try to fix it there (which would not be a guaranteed fix anyway).

Oh well....it's a draw and a longshot at that (no points from previous applications) but.....blast it! Teaches me to trust in these bedamnedable systems. The primary focus of most State DNR systems anymore is pure revenue generation, period. Sales without any human interaction (which adds cost) is how many (if not most) are operating now. Colorado even shortened their now-many rifle seasons to 5-days only for the simple reason that it allows them to sell many more tags to more hunters. Is this all part of "The Great Reset" by any chance?
Posted By: KDGJ Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/06/21 10:43 PM
Agree Lloyd the system is not user friendly or straight forward. Even after logging in I had to give them my hunter safety number and then answer the same questions for each big game tag. I hunt with two people from the east coast nth ey weren't saying anything good about applying for tags.

Ken
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/06/21 10:45 PM
Blame it on Covid19, Lloyd. Everyone else does. Every ill that besets the world nowadays gets blamed on that.

frown
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/06/21 10:50 PM
COVID is the shameless excuse for all sorts of shananagans. Paid for licence plates for my boys car in November here, the original plates and registration finally arrived on the last day of March ( after waiting 2 months I paid extra for hand delivery of a 2nd set at the courthouse).

KDGJ: can't imaging paying the new non-resident prices for just 5 days of hunting anyway....
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/07/21 12:19 AM
Sorry to hear of that struggle, Lloyd. That it involves benevolent government, making things difficult for a minor, pursuing sport hunting, surprises me not in the least.

It seems to me the local DNR has become narrowly focused on timber sales, deer, and turkeys, in that order. They seem quite uninterested in the fact the numbers of small game and waterfowl hunters declines every year in this state. Several years back, the DNR attempted to quietly phase in a lead shot ban, statewide, and were met with a fury of sportsman and legislators, who managed to come to the meetings that were scheduled in buildings and at times that were mostly impossible for working stiffs to be at, without losing work hours. We raised hell. They have been better behaved, since.

Unrelated, my son and I have opted out of our buddy trap league, since, ammunition to participate is unavailable at the moment, and the club can’t get it.

Good luck on your trip.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/07/21 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
It seems to me the local DNR has become narrowly focused on timber sales, deer, and turkeys, in that order.

Your local DNR/state is no different from mine, especially as it pertains to deer. They're the main reason for the deer we now have in plague proportions, IMO, and they're not slacking up. It seems to be full speed ahead. If someone with the initiative would file a class action law suit against the DNR for the increased number of deer/vehicle collisions and for the increased crop depredation I would join it in a skinny minute.

Stan
Posted By: craigd Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/07/21 01:09 AM
Thanks for the thoughts Lloyd. I was considering walking around one of your state's bigger shows that's scheduled to reopen this summer, but I'm not going to bother figuring out which hoops need jumping through, if something looks interesting for purchase. I know, OT on an OT, but probably overseen by the same folks.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/07/21 01:14 AM
Well, to be fair to our DNR folks, I'd sent a scathing text to the only place on their system where I could earlier tonight and somebody actually answered it. Long story short, they fixed their "new" system enough for me to get his application in with less than an hour to spare. I had a rather long, drawn-out email conversation with this fellow (even asking to do it by phone) but....he fixed it online. No call necessary. I must admit that I'm pleasantly surprised and a bit shocked by it all. Nothing in my other recent interactions (last year or so) with any other State agencies have gone nearly this well.

Now I guess we'll see how the "new" draw system actually works. I have two buddies who study this process every year (ones a geophysicist, the other's an electrical engineer) for weeks before we even attempt to apply for a tag anymore. God help us! All that's needed in that group is the addition of a tax attorney to assist with some of the twists and turns of the process requirements. We used to buy and then study the data from previous year's draw results and actual points required for determining what we might actually have a shot at, but none of that data is pertinent anymore with the "new " system dates and changing hunt codes (including new RFWs from now-defunct older ones). My "consiglieres" even set up a spreadsheet every year with all of the options we need to consider before we apply, can you believe that? You really have to want to hunt here, very badly.
Posted By: Hal Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/07/21 02:42 AM
Happy to report that the North Dakota Game and Fish Dept. system worked flawlessly for me two days ago. Remembers nearly all information on me from previous years and only took a couple minutes. And it remembered my password so didn't need to find that. Picked the combo fishing, furbearer, small game, general game, and habitat up for $52 and got my new HIP number for migratory birds with it. Then got my gratis whitetail tag to hunt my land. Two clicks on the printer and done! No more driving to the city and filling out tiny forms to stick stamps on.

That problem of 'username' or 'password' already in use has driven me nutz several times and also the CapCha verification system that I can't use because of bad eyesight. I'm supposed to see some tiny bicycles or crosswalks on small dim pictures and just can't. I was OK with the jumbled letters and numbers system.

Happy hunting!
Posted By: limapapa Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/07/21 04:46 AM
Had the same problem a couple of years ago Lloyd. Couldnt find my sons Hunter Safety number and even though he had a CID it didnt note his Hunter Safety as verified. Computer wouldnt help us. Had to drive down to 6060 Broadway, where I was lucky enough to be the only customer there (a Tuesday afternoon, I recall) and the young warden/agent was very helpful and printed up a new Hunter Safety card for him in a jiffy. Problem solved. Youll have to tell me where you found the link or text number that got you your response. I may need it someday. (Unless I move to Wyoming) Mike P.
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/07/21 12:04 PM
Makes me glad, in a bass-ackwards way, I live in MI--sure I lot different than when I grew up in the pheasant rich )even quail) farmlands and CRP acreage of the Ike years-- you bought a small game license, a Federal duck stamp and you were good to go--RWTF
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/07/21 12:39 PM
Why did you wait until the last day?
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/07/21 02:18 PM
Good question and one my bride asked as well.

It boils down to analysis of all the options. Understanding what has changed from last year, what the new requirements are (and there are always new requirements). Understanding the latest hunt codes and the new season dates (the real estate hasn't changed, but the names and access requirements have) and determining the availability of folks to actually go (winter hunting in the Rocky Mountains usually requires, at a minimum, 2 4x4 trucks to safely traverse most of the areas we now hunt). Moreover, some people are aging out, new hunters are joining the fray, and season dates always seem to overlap w/lots of critical dates for other family and personal needs. Colorado & many other states have clearly monetized the big game seasons out here. One doesn't just whistle up a tag and go hunting anymore (if you want to have any hope of success). A review of the 70 plus page regulations booklet will affirm that one very quickly. Also, an elk is a fairly big creature (small cows go 350lbs) and 60-plus year old hunters need to approach the process with some amount of caution. 3 miles back in rugged country with a downed 450 lb animal is a serious dose of reality for most of us.

Elk hunting isn't a hobby, it's a lifestyle. You need the scoped magnum rifle (tuned to it's ammo), and the cloths, and the boots, and the binoculars, and the 4x4 truck, and the freezer. Then you will need lodging and a viable tag (many aren't) and often, the money to pay for trespass. If you aren't familiar with an area, you'll likely need a guide. Sounds like fun, eh?
Posted By: RyanF Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/07/21 02:56 PM
The points system is beyond frustrating. Sure, each year you gain another preference point but, it seems you need another point to expect a draw, meaning you never catch up. I have 5 antelope preference points this year and it probably will not be enough. I shot a buck last year so it will probably be another 2-3 years before I draw another deer tag in my unit. Realistically all I can hope for is a cow elk tag this year. A moose or goat tag seems impossible but I play the lottery.

Takeaways from the analysis of options:

I need an RV. Trying to stick to the unit where I have access to a cabin is too limiting.
Expand to hunting neighboring states and Montana.
Odds are good when you do get a tag. I shot a deer last year and an elk the year before. Only a dumb mistake kept me from getting an elk last year.
CO is stacked to favor archery
NO! We do not need more hunters!

I still hunt elk alone. Not sure how much longer I can do that.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/07/21 02:56 PM
Most states have made the decision to manage only for deer and turkeys. The rest of game is either left to fend for itself or must try to overcome ineptitude by those who should be making it successful. And money is always the end result and what the goal seems to be for them.

Why does a small state like Maryland need 244 sworn NRP officers and 78 civilian support staff? That’s almost an average of ten per county. I guess the would say that they spend most of their time in non law enforcement work. But it seemed like I saw a game warden every time I went hunting. They certainly are not helping any game, other than deer and turkeys. And deer and turkeys are spreading like wildfire. I don’t think they need any help at all.

Last year we went to online drawing for everything in Ohio. KY also did much the same. Their system was never designed for the volume they received. License were purchased online and are digital now. But when you have a problem with the system you are going to be on your own most of the time. Glad it worked out for you.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/07/21 03:40 PM
Just re-reading all of this again makes me realize why I so-appreciate small game hunting, especially for birds. Even with all of the challenges being put in place by the various regulatory agencies, it is still way-simpler, cheaper, and argueably... way more fun. My hunting partners and I have always had to approach our elk hunts with the seriousness of planning a military campaign, and I have always seen an elk as a significant component of my larder and have worked hard to maintain that protein stream. Maybe too hard?

When I'm afield with a scattergun, it's always pure pleasure. Just me and the day. A good gun, a vest, a few shells, and maybe a trail lunch of an apple and a few nuts. Nothing is very heavy, nothing is very serious. It can become a numbers game at times, but it usually doesn't, and as long as you can cover a fair-amount ground on foot, you'll have a reasonable chance of enjoying yourself and even actually succeeding at bagging something. Very few barriers and very few risks by comparison. I'm fairly certain I'll be doing birds a lot longer than the other.
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/08/21 08:20 AM
Big game is subject to restrictions because if it weren’t, there wouldn’t be any to shoot.

I’ve elk hunted CO 6 times, Wyoming 4, and don’t find the process that onerous. A bunch of other state, Scotland and the UK as well.

Maybe 15 years ago I did get caught up in the hunter safety card having to be stored in Colorado in order to buy OTC tags.

It wasn’t hard to fix, I ended up paying them five dollars to keep my information in perpetuity,

Due to the necessity of draws, If you were going to build points to be able to hunt in a trophy managed area, rather than just stay random cull areas, you have to pay attention to it all year around.

Every state has different rules.

I am unlikely to attribute my own lack of preparation to someone else, and then drag them through the mud.
Posted By: craigd Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/08/21 11:43 AM
Part of the consideration is to define what a trophy is. Many of the really big Colorado trophy elk come off of private ranches where a pretty penny buys preparation. Think of the resources that could have been allocated to big game management, if who ever is responsible for online licensing were tasked to eliminate the need for live one on one support by a paid employee. Agreed, if someone wants to play their game, play by their rules.
Posted By: FallCreekFan Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/08/21 12:34 PM
Apparently, you weren’t alone, Lloyd. I see they extended the deadline until tomorrow evening due to “volume related technological issues.”
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/08/21 02:15 PM
FCF: Saw that. No surprise, I also allows them more applicants which equals more $$$.

CZ: You're right. My problem is multifaceted. I had it really good here for many years. Multiple hunt options every year. No crowding, cheap and pentiful tags. For almost 20 years, we had access to a private ranch of 20k acres ( Talk about heaven!). Another facet that I find disturbing is my own physical limitations with seem to compound at an alarming rate. Probably why old guys are always so crotchety. Still.....the programming behind these systems we're forced to endure now is usually not ready for prime-time when it is first deployed. This experience was no exception.
Posted By: dogon Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/08/21 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by Lloyd3
Just re-reading all of this again makes me realize why I so-appreciate small game hunting, especially for birds. Even with all of the challenges being put in place by the various regulatory agencies, it is still way-simpler, cheaper, and argueably... way more fun. My hunting partners and I have always had to approach our elk hunts with the seriousness of planning a military campaign, and I have always seen an elk as a significant component of my larder and have worked hard to maintain that protein stream. Maybe too hard?

When I'm afield with a scattergun, it's always pure pleasure. Just me and the day. A good gun, a vest, a few shells, and maybe a trail lunch of an apple and a few nuts. Nothing is very heavy, nothing is very serious. It can become a numbers game at times, but it usually doesn't, and as long as you can cover a fair-amount ground on foot, you'll have a reasonable chance of enjoying yourself and even actually succeeding at bagging something. Very few barriers and very few risks by comparison. I'm fairly certain I'll be doing birds a lot longer than the other.

I'm feeling your pain and came to the same conclusion about bird hunting verses big game a long time ago.

I've been playing the Colorado big game draw system for way longer than I care to think about. I get more frustrated by the process every year, especially with the draws that have weighted points in the mix. This will be the 18th year that I've been applying for a Moose tag in the same area. When I read the language about how weighted points work. I realize that I may never draw a moose tag in this crazy ass system. Then I think about a mutual friend we have that has way more points than I have who still hasn't drawn his goat or sheep tag, let alone he has 20+ elk points & still hasn't drawn for the area he has dreamed of hunting. This is really frustrating when you start applying when you're in your 40's and then realize your now in your mid 60's "Our friend in his mid-70's" & still have little chance of drawing the tag you've been chasing. By the way; We've tongue in cheek named our friend with the 20+ Elk points "The Point Hunter" not for the points on the rack, but for his draw points:)

You're also right about the Parks & Wildlife money game. I just received an email last night announcing they are extending the draw application deadline to April 9th so more people have a chance to get their applications in!! WTF???

I look back to the day's when I starting hunting as kid when all big licenses were over the counter & you could buy two buck tags if you wanted them. I also have one of my grandfathers Colorado sportsman tag's that included two deer, elk, bear, a cat, small game & fishing all in the same license. They were still selling similar tag's into the early 70's. AHHH those were the day's!!!!!
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/08/21 02:26 PM
Those were the days that led us to where we are.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/08/21 03:23 PM
It always seems to come back to that anymore, doesn't it?
Posted By: RyanF Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/08/21 03:58 PM
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com][/img]

Last fall, after 5 days chasing elk near Fairplay, I come home to find these guys in my yard...
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/08/21 05:55 PM
We have far more people and now as then, and, the baby boomers have disposable income.

There is excessive pressure on every big game animals in the United States

If it weren’t for the lottery system there would be none.

I’m doing the Kodak Island Sitka Blacktail / duckhunting boat trip next.
Posted By: craigd Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/09/21 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by ClapperZapper
....There is excessive pressure on every big game animals in the United States

If it weren’t for the lottery system there would be none.

I’m doing the Kodak Island Sitka Blacktail / duckhunting boat trip next.
I think the auto insurance industry reported nearly two million claims in the latest one year period for collision damage with animals. Tens of thousands of depredation permits are issued in the US each year. Chances are, places that look like a bunch of the vehicles have meaty looking after market bumpers, probably report a tiny percentage of actual collisions with popular big game animals. Maybe, there are critters around, great picture Ryan, just not all lined up in front of us?

Neat hunt coming up. Is it an example of a destination that is difficult to pay attention to all year round and and might have a high potential for lack of preparation. Is it a real hunt if a guide is paid to dot the Is and cross the Ts, but turns out that no big game happens to be taken. Sorry about that CZ, what are Kodiak Island hunts fueled with, immigrant lunch money?
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/09/21 08:08 AM
Hunting big game in remote places, (especially bear country) takes preparation.
The paper side of it just takes attention to dates on the calendar.
It’s no different to me than paying regular bills.

If you can’t do that part, how serious are you?

My efforts in Alaska over the next few seasons are just to fill out my life game card.
Most people aren’t determined enough to train their body, mind, and field craft skills for an entire year pre-remote hunt. It get physically more difficult each year.

Corona virus is making the taking of a “Macnab” sketchy for this season.

As for the money side of it all, Just add up the constituent parts, budget for them, work hard, and save your money.

I am the wrong person to makes quips about immigrant labor to. I have ICE on speed dial.
I’ve had at least a thousand of them rounded up over the last decade.

The penalties are on the wrong side of the equation.
Posted By: Last Dollar Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/09/21 12:17 PM
My boys and I went through all the same frustrations as Lloyd did. The boys and the crew we hunt with are all non residents The crowning insult to them was being forced to to buy a small game licence, which they will never use, before even being allowed to enter the draw! If (when) Colorado decides to reintroduce Wolves, there wont be any elk to hunt anyhow......I have done the Sitka deer -duck hunt on Kodiak...Great experience....
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/09/21 12:50 PM
When fuel is three dollars a gallon, big game tags over $500 apiece, every state in the country with budget problems, the $93 it takes to have a chance to collect a preference point or a tag for a unit you desire, is a small part of the equation.

And I suppose nobody plans on shooting any blue grouse or is Or spruce hens for camp meat while on the excursion.

Alternatively, you can take your chances on leftover tags, or over-the-counter tags, after August 1 and save the 100 bucks.

Every state with big game has migrated to some form Of base license plus fee tags in the last 20 years.

Michigan included.

I absolutely hate the new pheasant stamp.
Posted By: Hal Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/09/21 05:55 PM
'There is excessive pressure on every big game animals in the United States'

But it wasn't long ago we could buy as many $15 doe antelope tags as we wanted in WY.
And ND was spending $000's to help farmers and ranchers protect their hay supplies as well as offering extra doe tags upon request in some of the heaviest hit units.
Posted By: keith Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/09/21 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by ClapperZapper
Why did you wait until the last day?

Lloyd did not wait until the last day. If you read his original post, he bought licenses over the counter a few days before the deadline, and was attempting to get his and his son's big game tags the evening before the last day.

Not that it matters. It shouldn't matter if he had waited until the last day... if he was using a well designed, tested, and user-friendly computerized license system. We are well into the 21st century, and use computers to file State, Federal, and Local Income taxes, to renew motor vehicle registrations, and to pay utility bills and do online banking. We can now easily trade stocks online without a stockbroker or the high trading commissions. We even easily do a lot of shopping online. So there is no good reason Lloyd should not have been able to complete his application and licensing transaction easier and faster than he did 20 or 30 years ago.

These systems are not being overwhelmed. All we hear from Game Management Departments, in their never-ending desire to raise license fees, is that they have less revenue due to declining numbers of hunters. That was a joke in my state, where in recent years, our Game Commission got a huge windfall from several thousand dollar per acre gas and oil leases and fracking production royalties. That was in addition ongoing timber sales and previous mineral extraction deals on State Game Lands.

Originally Posted by ClapperZapper
When fuel is three dollars a gallon, big game tags over $500 apiece, every state in the country with budget problems, the $93 it takes to have a chance to collect a preference point or a tag for a unit you desire, is a small part of the equation.


I absolutely hate the new pheasant stamp.


I also found your lecture about the $93.00 fees for a "chance to collect a preference point or a tag" amusing. I can just hear you complaining about disenfranchising the poor and minorities if the same system was applied to voting and elections.

I also hate our relatively new pheasant stamp. I hate having to pay more for the right to shoot put-and-take stocked birds, because it was screwed up management by our Game Commission that quickly turned Pennsylvania from a state with a very good native population into one where native ringneck pheasants are all but extinct. Then they messed up deer hunting in much the same manner, and have been playing with things like adding Sunday hunting in an effort to attract some of the hundreds of thousands of hunters they drove away, to return to the sport. Last week, they announced that we shattered the previous record for antlered deer killed in the era of antler restrictions. This was laughable, considering the warm and rainy weather we had during the antlered and antlerless deer season, fewer hunters, and the widespread complaints from hunters about the obviously low deer numbers. They still keep talking about the need to harvest more does to control the population, but I had more full days in the woods without seeing a single deer than any season in my life. Rubs, scrapes, tracks, and Deer shit do not lie. When you aren't seeing much sign, it means there just aren't many deer around that area... no matter what the Game Commission Biologist is telling you.

Yet when hunters and the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania attempted to sue the Game Commission over poor deer management, the Courts ruled that we had no "standing" to sue. Sounds a lot like the dozens of lawsuits filed concerning 2020 election fraud, where Courts ruled that voters and State Attorney Generals lacked "Standing" to sue. When the game gets stacked against you, being right does not matter.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/09/21 07:28 PM
Hard to find perspective when seemingly all the foundations in our world seem to be shifting, but Hal makes a very good point. What happened to all of those cheap and plentiful tags from just a few short years ago? My guess would be "policy" (the thing that seemingly drives all government decisions), and policy is always affected (if not completely driven) by finances. Back to the money thing.
Posted By: canvasback Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/09/21 07:45 PM
Just renewed my small game hunting licence in Ontario for the next three years. Very easy online process and a cost of about $20 per year. Also picked up my 2021 Spring Turkey tag for about $22. I have no complaints.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/09/21 10:13 PM
I'm no longer a big game hunter, having given up deer hunting many years ago because of a lack of enthusiasm. I shoot deer all summer on crop predation permits, which only require a phone call and GPS coordinates for the fields. I also shoot hogs year 'round, day and night. It's elimination. It's not hunting. I have a lifetime license in GA, so no applications are necessary anymore.

But, my out of state online license purchases are about as easy as I could imagine, for AR, MS and GA. In fact, it is so much easier than what I used to go through when traveling out of state to hunt that I wouldn't go back to the way it used to be, even if I could.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/10/21 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by keith
When the game gets stacked against you, being right does not matter.

How true!
Posted By: L. Brown Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/10/21 11:30 AM
Lifetime licenses . . . I have a lifetime hunting and fishing license in Iowa. Remains valid even though I no longer live there.
Posted By: dogon Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/10/21 01:44 PM
Colorado's draw application window closed yesterday. Park's & Wildlife announced that last year in 2020 set a new record for big game applications & that record was broken by the number of applications this year.

This tells me it's going to be hard to draw the tag you want due to the shear volume of applicants. Now it's the waiting game for seeing if you hit the big game Powerball or not.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: OT: the bane of online licenses - 04/11/21 12:06 AM
Amen...
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