doublegunshop.com - home
Posted By: campero 28 bore diameter? - 01/28/21 11:35 PM
My 28 ga Wiggan & Elliott have this bore diameter and I am surprised cause is the 24 bore. What do you think about?

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Posted By: ellenbr Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/29/21 12:04 AM
The stamp is a >>26<< overstamped w/ a >>28<<.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: MattH Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/29/21 12:48 AM
I believe it is a "20" where the zero has been over-stamped with an "8". Has this gun been sleeved? It may have been sleeved down to 28ga or even chamber-sleeved down to 28ga from 20ga. ---Matt
Posted By: campero Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/29/21 07:00 AM
Thanks for your replies.

It's something extrange in these marks. It looked like there was a zero under the eight, but the chamber doesn't been sleeved down to 28 ga from 20 ga. See the picture below.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

28 bore diameter: .550
24 bore diameter: .579

So, what do you think? May be, a bad day of the person who recorded the marks?
Posted By: Der Ami Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/29/21 02:42 PM
It is not overly uncommon for a gun to have a chamber smaller than common for the bore( ie "overbore condition") , this may be an extreme example.
Mike
Posted By: campero Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/29/21 05:48 PM
Back-Bored technology, but from the 19th century, isn't it?
What a curious thing and thank you for your words.
Posted By: Parabola Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/29/21 06:27 PM
Dear Campero,

Are there any earlier Black Powder proof marks stamped on the barrel? Does that show a 24?

My guess is that it could have been made as a 24 bore, and when those cartridges became unobtainable then the chamber was sleeved to accept 28 bore cartridges.

I know that some gunsmiths chamber sleeved 16 bores to 20 bore to make them more saleable.
Posted By: campero Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/29/21 07:59 PM
Dear Parabola,

Thanks for your reply.

There are these marks in the barrel. The number is very confused. 26?

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

I don't think it was converted to 28 bore because the barrel has no joints.
Posted By: Parabola Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/29/21 11:13 PM
It was originally proofed as a 26 bore. ( .563).

I have not found any reference to 26 bore cartridges being made.

It might have been made as a open bored 28 bore, or a tight bored 24 bore in the way that new 12 bores were often stamped 13, or 13/1.

If it was chamber sleeved from 24 to 28 you would not see any external joins, only possibly a faint circle in or around the cartridge rim recess.

In any event it is now nitro proofed as a 28 , so I am sure you will continue to enjoy shooting it.
Posted By: campero Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/30/21 08:10 AM
Thank you, Parabola.

No reference to the 26 gauge either. Something strange.

In the photo above, showing the wax I used to measure the breech, no circle is visible. Something even weirder.

No nitro proof engraved, but I use it with current 28/65 cartridges. And yes, I enjoy it very much.

Regards!
Posted By: Parabola Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/30/21 11:40 AM
Dear Campero,

The BNP mark signifies Birmingham Nitro Proof, so no worries there.

The viewers mark to the top left of the bore size marking is a pair of crossed sceptres (the original Birmingham proof mark from 1814, when they adopted what had been the private proof mark of the well known Birmingham maker Ketland). They look more like crossed daggers.

The 1 in the bottom quadrant indicates that it was viewed after proof by the senior examiner.

The letter in the left hand quadrant shows the year it was re-proofed, A for 1950 through to Z in 1974 but they skipped I for some (or no?) reason.

On your gun the year letter is not very clear, and it looks like the punch was not held very straight. It looks like I, which was not used, but could be L for 1960?

There was a double Wiggan and Elliott shotgun in the last Southams auction sale. Unfortunately they delete their online catalogue after the sale ends but I am pretty sure that it was a 24 bore, and that there was also a lot of 100? 24 bore cases or cartridges. If it didn’t sell it will no doubt appear in their sale in March. If you contact them guns@southamsauction.co.uk I am sure that they will be happy to send you a printed copy of the December 2020 catalogue if they have any left.
Posted By: lagopus Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/30/21 01:08 PM
The barrel when first measured would have been between .563 and .571 so marked correctly as 26 bore. The chamber size is marked in the lozenge mark as 28 which is the cartridge it is designed for. I think the 20 with the overstamp will have been a mistake then rectified by someone picking up the wrong number punch. It does happen occasionally and not all that uncommon for marks to be missed off or a wrong one added and struck out when noticed. There are a high volume of guns going through the Proof House daily and human error will be encountered. It was marked for black powder initially on the underside of the barrel and later re-proofed for nitro. If in doubt send photos to the Birmingham Proof House and they will advise. It's what they're there for and always ready to help. Lagopus…..
Posted By: Parabola Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/30/21 01:46 PM
Dear Campero and Lagopus,

I note from the current Eley Shooter’s Diary ( Eley Hawk having at last stopped emblazoning the misleading and embarrassing title ELEY HAWK SHOOTERS DIARY across the cover) that there is a note which reads:-
“*Please note that the British Proof Authority will not give guidance on pre-1954 marks and recommends re-proof of such guns”.

No doubt a policy motivated more by liability concerns than a desire to generate more business.

A gun submitted for re-proof could be blown up, but it might also be rejected for such reasons as not having chamber dimensions which do not accord with the latest dimensions. If rejected it becomes out of proof and unsalable.

Campero, by all means as Lagopus suggests ask the Birmingham proof house for an opinion on the marks.

Should they suggest submitting it to re-Proof, either there or in Spain consider those risks.

If it was my gun, and the bore is not seriously pitted and still measures between .579 and .587 inch at 9 inches from the breech, I would not let it anywhere near a Proof house.

Your gun bears on re-proof the post-1954 marks, and I believe that was when the lozenge with the chamber size would have been impressed and corrected.

Bear in mind that the bore sizes go up in steps (.710, .719, .728/9 and .740 or 13, 13/1, 12 and 12/1 in the case of a 12 bore) and that when it was re-proofed the actual internal diameter at 9 inches may have been exactly .579 or a few thousands of an inch more.
Posted By: canvasback Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/30/21 02:06 PM
That looks like an interesting single barrel. Can we see pics of the rest of the gun? Specs like weight, lop and barrel length?
Posted By: greener4me Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/30/21 02:36 PM
Possibly started life as a 28 bore made for thin brass cases, in which case the barrel could have been originally bored at 26 - based on the original proof marks.
When later submitted for re-proof (nitro) - the man with the hammer and stamps was obviously confused /hungover/or just having a bad day. Unless the nitro proof marks are spurious- which is not unheard of.
Presumably the barrel was built as a cylinder but does it show any alteration now?
Posted By: bushveld Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/30/21 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by lagopus
The barrel when first measured would have been between .563 and .571 so marked correctly as 26 bore. The chamber size is marked in the lozenge mark as 28 which is the cartridge it is designed for. I think the 20 with the overstamp will have been a mistake then rectified by someone picking up the wrong number punch. It does happen occasionally and not all that uncommon for marks to be missed off or a wrong one added and struck out when noticed. There are a high volume of guns going through the Proof House daily and human error will be encountered. It was marked for black powder initially on the underside of the barrel and later re-proofed for nitro. If in doubt send photos to the Birmingham Proof House and they will advise. It's what they're there for and always ready to help. Lagopus…..

Agree.

It is important to understand that mistakes can be made at the proof houses in stamping guns. Apparently, some are discovered before they leave the premises and some are not. I owned a reproofed gun (Birmingham proof) that on one barrel was stamped a bore inside diameter (metric) that was greater by a significant extent than what was the true measured inside diameter. the other barrel inside diameter was stamped correctly (different inside diameter than the wrong stamped barrel) so it was not a matter of stamping the right barrel for the left barrel inside diameter. This mistake occurred less than 20 years ago.
Posted By: Hal Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/30/21 10:07 PM
Was 24 bore common in Germany? I've been calling my Janeck buscheflinte a 28 bore for years, but guess now should have been calling it a 24 bore as .58 Minies fit so nicely. What is metric equivalent?
Posted By: campero Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/31/21 09:51 AM
Thanks a lot again for all the information!

The shotgun has a 77'5 cm barrel and a sidelever system.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

PD: I'm from Spain.
Posted By: SKB Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/31/21 10:09 AM
A very nice looking single barrel, enjoy it!
Posted By: campero Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/31/21 10:14 AM
Thanks, SKB. I love this gun and I hunt with "her" because is difficult and getting wild small game is a challence.

What a pity don't have RST cartridges in Spain.

Someone can tell me the Birmingham Proof House mail? I don't find it in his web.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/31/21 11:51 AM
Would the Birmingham proof facility admit what exactly it was stamped, 20/26/28? Because if they knowingly stamped it >>26<< on the underside & then apply a >>20<< stamp in the Rhombus? I guess an error of that magnitude could occur. But a >>20<< die shouldn't even be in his hand.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Parabola Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/31/21 12:50 PM
The 26 stamp was applied about 75 years before the 20/oops!/28 mark.

The 26 in the Victorian marks refers to the bore size rather than a cartridge in the way that a .577/.450 Martini Henry would be 52.

The bore now is larger than 26 and is in the 24 range so it was clearly skimmed out to clean it up prior to being nitro proofed.
Posted By: campero Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/31/21 01:57 PM
Thanks again!

I'm not familiar with 26 bore. I have never seen any cartridges of that gauge. I don't think my shotgun has been sleeved.

Regards!
Posted By: Der Ami Re: 28 bore diameter? - 01/31/21 04:19 PM
campero,
The 26, in this case does not indicate a particular cartridge, it is simply an expression of the barrels initial bore diameter, stated in "gauge" measurement instead of mm or fractions of an inch. The 28 is the designation of the intended cartridge( without saying whether the stamping was a change or a correction).
Mike
Posted By: campero Re: 28 bore diameter? - 02/01/21 05:38 PM
Thanks, Mike.

Learning a lot with yours replies.

Regards!
Posted By: campero Re: 28 bore diameter? - 02/01/21 07:35 PM
Can this explain the bore enlargement of my sweet gun?

Out of proof?
© The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com