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Posted By: KY Jon Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/22/21 01:28 PM
I recall back in the 70's or early 80's that Spanish made doubles got a bad reputation for having parts made with steel which had not been hardened properly. The gun with POS intials, Pride of Spain, was one of the worst examples. Sears of butter is how they were described. One gunsmith I knew used a POS 20 bore as a donor gun to make a .444 hog killing, double rifle. As I recall he had to go over all the internals and rework them and harden them properly. Was it just the POS line or were other makers like AYA having the same problems?
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/22/21 01:32 PM
I don't know but they just had the reputation. I saw a cat 20+ years ago purchase 100s of them and he could not give them away. Sidelocks that would easily catch the eye of a potential purchaser but once examined, they would pass. I was told it was similar steel of that used by Taiwan a decade earlier for tools? And Japan was given a blackeye before that.



Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: gunsaholic Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/22/21 01:40 PM
Don't know for sure but I have had a few of them over the last 50 years and none were a problem. But they just saw hunting use so no high volumes. My first double barrel I bought in 1971 was a Loyola 20 gauge. Paid $100.00 for it. That gave me a walnut stock, splinter forearm, ID medallion, crossbolt, auto safety, double triggers, bushed firing pins, case colored receiver, pistol grip cap and basic engraving. I still have the gun. It saw a fair bit of use for the first 3 or 4 years with no issues. And many of those loads were 3" magnums.
Posted By: ed good Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/22/21 02:38 PM
hence, the origin of the spanish curse...

in reality, some spanish guns have been found to have soft sears...re hardening by skill hands solves problem...

spanish barrel steel is some of the best ever made...
Posted By: mc Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/22/21 02:44 PM
Yes ed so when the gun is reduced to being a club it is most important for it to have good barrels.i wonder how many soft steel guns have been repaired rehardened ? Has anyone bought one lately?
Posted By: damascus Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/22/21 04:17 PM
Those Spanish guns with soft metal parts where not limited to the USA we had them here in Brit land. Also poor steel was not limited to the very cheap Box lock's, a number of the pricier side locks also suffered from poor quality steel or no case hardening. I do bereave I was over crediting them with treatment they where just un-case hardened mild steel. This was the cause of the Spanish guns earning a bad reputation, though when AYA arrived the quality improved dramatically.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/22/21 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by ellenbr
I don't know but they just had the reputation. I saw a cat 20+ years ago purchase 100s of them and he could not give them away. Sidelocks that would easily catch the eye of a potential purchaser but once examined, they would pass. I was told it was similar steel of that used by Taiwan a decade earlier for tools? And Japan was given a blackeye before that.



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

If Japanese shogtuns had a black eye based on soft steel parts in the 60's and 70's, I must've missed it. I've owned several Ithaca-imported SKB's, Browning BSS, and Charles Daly--mostly Daly sxs rather than OU. (Which were Miroku-made guns, as was the BSS.) I didn't have any soft steel problems with any of them. And I don't recall any discussions here either of Japanese guns with that problem. Nor, for that matter, many problems of any kind. I do recall interviewing Abe Chaber, and he said that he replaced springs on quite a few Daly OU's. And it's not unusual for some Ithaca SKB sxs to develop small cracks in the stock right behind the receiver. Often as a result of the through bolt not being tight enough. Some SKB owners did have their stocks glass bedded for additional protection.

Re the Spanish guns, one of the least expensive ones sold in the States was the AyA Matador. I never much cared for the single triggers on those guns, which seemed to have a lot of creep. But I don't recall that soft steel parts were an issue.
Posted By: mc Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/23/21 02:34 AM
I have a 20 ga.matador 28 inch barrels with the creepy trigger it has a selection button on the trigger the problem with this one is the extractor was hard and brittle and broken before I got it I repaired it still working no other problems.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/23/21 04:52 AM
Cole Haugh told me he anneals and re-hardens the bits on any Spanish gun that comes in his door. He imported them, he would know.

Thank the Lord that wasn’t an issue on French guns, or, at least, the French guns I had anything to do with.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: DoubleTake Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/23/21 02:05 PM
What brand did Haugh import?
Posted By: halifax Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/23/21 02:49 PM
I bought an AYA No. 2 about six years ago at Cabella's. It was made in 1995. The first time I had it out, it misfired from the second barrel and on a grouse coming straight towards me. It turned out that the firing pins were not hardened properly, if at all. The repaired gun was returned with the original pins which looked like back dog legs. I am guessing that is the reason why the gun was sold by the previous owner. It now has hardened pins and was also stripped and cleaned in the process. The gunsmith (Jim Eyster) said it look almost perfect, internally. I have had no problems with the No. 2 since then.

I am really not a fan of Spanish guns but I will say that is a beautiful gun to shoot and carry: 28 bore, 28 in. tubes and with my exact stocking dimensions. Those dimensions, along with its weight of 5 1/2 pounds (most are 6 pounds, or more in 28 bore) are what induced me to buy the gun in the first place. A great bird gun, overall, for the money ($4K, plus $130 for new pins and cleaning).
Posted By: Imperdix Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/23/21 02:55 PM
Back in the 70`s a friend bought a Gunmark Sabel 25" sidelock which I believe was a Garbi build.That gun was the most reliable s/side that I`ve ever known,it was used for regular clay shooting,game,wildfowling with heavy shells (not ideal!) and just did the business.The owner has now departed us but it was still going strong last I heard.There are good and bad in most things........
Posted By: Ol'Forester Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/23/21 03:02 PM
I ordered a Arrieta back in 1990 that was plagued with soft metal. That experience cancelled any interest I had in Spanish guns.

I shoot skeet with a couple of fellows who shoot Garbi guns and have no problems with them. I see some nice looking Spanish guns for sale at attractive prices. I am starting to reconsider my attitude concerning these guns. I suppose even with the cost of putting them right I still could be money ahead compared guns manufactured elsewhere. Would be a hassle though and destroy my confidence in the gun. Not sure if I can get over my bias.
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/23/21 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by halifax
I bought an AYA No. 2 .... It turned out that the firing pins were not hardened properly, if at all....

Spain has no monopoly on this.

I have first hand experience that Krieghoff cannot make firing pins that last. They crater, get sharp, and pierce primers. Krieghoff blames the primers.

Buddy of mine has an ICD that cost him a small fortune. The pins were brittle and failed within a year.

The only Spanish made gun I have currently was made by Ugartechea in the early 1970's. It has never misfired and has the original firing pins. The triggers are good.

The worst internals I've ever seen in a shotgun not surprisingly belonged to a Huglu 'GI Special' that some unfortunate soldier brought back from a tour in the sandbox. The gun is unserviceable as delivered and cannot be fixed.

Don't bash Turkish guns here though, you will hear what a great value they represent and how much they've improved recently under the Erdogan regime.

Yet, the universal Spanish gun 'soft metal' problems from 50 years ago are still regarded as fact.
Posted By: keith Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/23/21 05:21 PM
I've passed up some Spanish doubles at very cheap prices because of this bad reputation. But it's hard to believe that they are all bad, and that every Spanish gunmaker was unaware of the importance of hardening and tempering critical action parts.

The only Spanish double I own is a 1970's vintage I. Ugartechea Falcon 12 ga. with 3" chambers. A guy was walking it around a gun show several years ago, and I made him a very lowball offer when he offered to sell it to me. To my surprise, he took my offer.

I have never had any reason to look inside the action, and it has been totally reliable in the hundreds of times that I have fired it. I use it around the house to shoot grackles and starlings. It comes in handy to digest higher velocity and higher pressure shells that I would not want to use in any of my old vintage doubles. Unlike a lot of cheap Spanish or Turkish guns, the engraving does not look like it was done by a beaver with carbide teeth. The frame is bone charcoal color case hardened, so they must have known a little something about heat treatment processes. Wood to metal fit, finish, and the cut checkering is decent too. I'm not fond of the beavertail forend, and the fairly sharp comb on the buttstock gets your attention a bit when you fire magnum loads. But other than that, I have zero complaints.
Posted By: LeFusil Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/24/21 03:24 AM
The only Spanish guns I’ve owned that needed some metal work were AyA’s. Good grade guns too and all brand new, 1 owners. First was a AyA 4/53 that the forend iron developed a crack. Second was a small bore #2 with rounded bar that the ejector broke on its second outing. 3rd was another #2 that developed really bad firing pin drag, come to find out the left tumbler was also peened and misshapen. All 3 went back to NECG (warranty center at the time) and all 3 were repaired at no cost to me. I sold them soon after they were repaired. I just lost that loving feeling I suppose.
Oddly enough....the cheaper Ugartechea Model 30’s (Parker Hale & ACT imports) I owned....none of those cheap guns ever developed any issues. Same with a really nice, 1960’s vintage best grade Victor Sarasquetta that I bought from Thad Scott a really long time ago...no issues at all with that piece and I shot the hell out of that gun.
Posted By: coosa Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/24/21 05:20 AM
The first sxs I owned was a 12 gauge Falcon that I got in 1968. My uncle won it in a raffle and I thought it was beautiful, so I talked him into trading it to me for a High Standard 20 gauge pump.

It fit me well and I had my first really successful wing shooting hunts with it. I used it in the rain and the case coloring washed off of it, then the finish on the stock came off. The gold triggers lost all their gold.

My mother helped me refinish the wood and it looked halfway decent again, and then it started misfiring. My dad carried it to one gunsmith who said the metal was too soft and he refused to work on it. Another gunsmith did try, had the same complaint, but did try to fix it. I got it back one night during turkey season, and was going hunting before school the next morning. I was happy to leave the old Stevens single shot at home and carry my gun, but didn't have a chance to test fire it.

I heard a turkey gobble on the roost, got in good position, and made a soft call. The gobbler must have been lonely. He immediately flew about 200 yds and lit about 20 steps from me before I realized what was happening. I had never seen one respond like that. I raised the gun to shoot him and flipped off the safety as I shouldered it. Both barrels went off and the gun busted my lip. The turkey flew away unharmed. Maybe the worst thing was that we had a high school baseball game that afternoon and I played first base. Every player who got on base for the other team wanted to know what happened to my lip, so I had to tell the story over and over.

I never fired my gun again. Over the years, I carried it to several different gunsmiths and none of them were able to make it work. I told the last one that I would spend any amount necessary to make my gun work again. He said no parts were available that would fit it, but a machinist might could make some. I had a friend who was a machinist and he tried to fix it and kind of lost interest. Then he was killed in a car wreck, and I never found out what happened to my gun.

In no way would I say that all Spanish guns of that era had problems, but that one did. 50 years later, I still have nightmares about that gun. A turkey or deer is in range, but my gun won't shoot. After reading this thread, I'll probably have it tonight. Thanks a lot!
smile
Posted By: KDGJ Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/24/21 03:34 PM
My hunting partner bought a used Uggie model 30 imported by Precision Sports. He shot a couple of rounds of sporting clays with the gun and then pheasant season opened up. The right barrel didn't fire at the first pheasant that got up in front of him. He sent the gun to Cole Haugh and was told the firing pins were soft. Cole worked on it and sent it back, but it would fire when the gun was closed. The gun went back and Cole fixed it. However, he wouldn't trust that gun and sold it. He did buy a Garbi Model 100 sidelock and never had a problem with the Garbi.

Ken
Posted By: DoubleTake Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/24/21 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by KY Jon
I recall back in the 70's or early 80's that Spanish made doubles got a bad reputation for having parts made with steel which had not been hardened properly. The gun with POS intials, Pride of Spain, was one of the worst examples. Sears of butter is how they were described. One gunsmith I knew used a POS 20 bore as a donor gun to make a .444 hog killing, double rifle. As I recall he had to go over all the internals and rework them and harden them properly. Was it just the POS line or were other makers like AYA having the same problems?

Are you looking to buy an AyA, Jon?
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/24/21 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Erickson
What brand did Haugh import?

Uggies. He told me about rehardening the bits of everything Spanish that comes in after he went through mine.

I have a Falcon also. It is not a bragging rights gun, few of mine are, but, that doesn’t bother me in the rain, or snow. The stock fit to the metal could be better. But, it works when I use it. Not sure if I would have had issues had Cole not seen to the gun 1971 vintage, if I recall correctly, but, it had been in regular use a long time before I got it, and decided the White Line pad had to go.

I seem to have more days where I don’t want a really nice gun along, anytime a lab is along I’ll have something not worth a bunch of money to me. If a gun is going to have a dog’s leg lifted on it, it seems like it will be a lab that does it. They don’t care what kind of gun it is.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/24/21 09:09 PM
I am looking to set up a double gun for duck hunting. I have three candidates. One is a GE Lewis 3" wildfowler box lock I just won at Holt's, the second is an AYA Model 3 3" from the same sale, then I have a AYA Model 4 I have on hand. I thinkg I bid on every 3" wildfowler gun on the last two Holts auctions. Only won two. The Model 4 came in a group sale from an estate. Do not know why I kept it to be honest. Spanish guns never rang my bell. But point is I am looking at what I have and what will fill in a need I have decided I have for a double gun to shoot ducks with a bit of Bismuth shot or even steel. I have other options but would like a British wildfowler option to hunt with and if that does not work out one of the AYA to fall back on.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/25/21 08:04 PM
Broken strikers do happen. I just had one break yesterday on an Ugartechea sidelock. It's from back in the 50's and a pretty high quality gun, much nicer than most of the Uggies sent to the States more recently. But nothing much wrong, at least according to many Uggie owners, on those guns either. Just that they were mostly made to a much lower price point. Then there's what you read above, and Cole Haugh is certainly a reliable source when it comes to sxs gunsmithing.

Mine doesn't show a lot of use, but if it's still the original striker on a gun that old, that's pretty good. I've had them break on Brit guns as well. Bought a Sauer from Fieldsport several years ago that required a hammer replacement because on that gun, the pin is part of the hammer. German guns have a reputation for being pretty rugged, but I managed to break the first Sauer I ever owned. Not the striker/firing pin, but rather the link between the top lever and the Greener crossbolt. That was after I'd had the chambers lengthened to 2 3/4" and fired quite a few 16ga Express 1 1/8 oz loads through it. That was the only thing that ever broke, over a span of about 20 years.

Sometimes it seems like you win the lottery. Then you get a gun with a really good reputation for reliability, and something goes wrong the first time out.
Posted By: Imperdix Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/25/21 08:18 PM
Those Lewis 3" guns are usually built like tanks,used a 32" barrelled one a few times,proper wildfowling guns.....
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/25/21 08:48 PM
The Lewis is my first choice but this one is only 30” at 7 pounds, ten ounces, 1/2&3/4 choke. Should be good with a good bismuth load. The AYAs are backup options. Another board member won another 3” gun I was bidding on in the last sealed bid auction. Don’t know who beat me on the other couple 3” doubles. Sealed bid auctions are such a weird thing. Bid too well and win them all which you might regret or bid low and regret it because you lost them all.
Posted By: Kyrie Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/27/21 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by KY Jon
I recall back in the 70's or early 80's that Spanish made doubles got a bad reputation for having parts made with steel which had not been hardened properly. The gun with POS intials, Pride of Spain, was one of the worst examples. Sears of butter is how they were described. One gunsmith I knew used a POS 20 bore as a donor gun to make a .444 hog killing, double rifle. As I recall he had to go over all the internals and rework them and harden them properly. Was it just the POS line or were other makers like AYA having the same problems?

Good morning Jon,

You nailed the issue when you wrote “had not been hardened properly”, but the problem goes back a lot farther that the 1970s. The problem was first noted internationally during WWI, when Spanish gun makers supplied sidearms to any combatant with the money to pay for them.

The problem is one of process rather than material.

The material in question is just low carbon steel. That’s the same type of steel used in Lugers, Colt 1911s, and all of the old and very fine S&W revolvers. Low carbon steel produced in Spain isn’t any better or worse that low carbon steel produced in Germany or the USA.

Low carbon steel was used in firearms because it is relatively cheap to produce, relatively easy to make in quantity, and easily worked. That “easily worked” is a blessing and a curse. A blessing in that it’s easily shaped and engraved. A curse in that it is easily abraded deformed under impact.

The curse is easily dealt with after shaping and engraving are done by either surface carbonization to create a “skin” of high carbon steel, or by flame hardening and tempering to change the crystalline structure to harden the part through and through.

That’s the material side of the subject.

The process side is where the issue crops up. The Spanish artisanal shotgun makers might more accurately be terms “shotgun assemblers”. They don’t make the parts that they use to assemble their guns. Rather they all depend on a network of small shops each of which specializes in producing a few kinds of parts. The gun makers essentially buy parts blanks from that network of small suppliers and hand shape and fit the parts together to make shotguns.

This process doesn’t scale up well. Each gun maker is set up to make some fairly small (by USA standards) number of shotguns a month. The underlying network of parts suppliers is just big enough to provide the parts to make that small number of guns. That works well so long as there isn’t any sudden surge in demand.

When a US hardware chain tasks a small Spanish shotgun maker to deliver twenty or thirty shotguns a month the feces may hit the fan. If, for the sake of an example, that shotgun maker usually only buys the parts to build ten or twenty guns a month he now has to try to find two or three times the number of parts his suppliers are set up to provide.

So both gun makers and parts suppliers struggle to hire contract workers to make parts and assemble guns. All the really skilled people are already employed, and this is fundamentally a family-based trade, so aunts, uncles, brothers, mostly grown children, and anyone else who can handle a file are dragooned into making parts or building guns.

This is where the problem occurs. Parts either don’t get heat treated at all, or are hardened but not tempered. Parts lacking heat treatment, and parts left brittle due to lack of temper, get into the supply chain. Sometimes the bad parts are caught during assembly, and sometimes not; the gun makers are just as stressed out as the parts makers.

And that is how too soft and/or too hard parts get into Spanish shotguns (and the pistols made by Star, Astra, and Llama). No gun maker is immune. All the makers, Aguirre y Aranzabal (AyA) to Zabala Hermanos have had their share of this issue.

And that’s “the rest of the story”
Posted By: halifax Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/27/21 02:37 PM
Low carbon (1020) steel is rarely used in making firearms. It has very low tensile strength and is used for things like fencing or building material. Converse to your post, it is high carbon steel (1040), or similar, that is used in firearms production and 4140, or similar grade steel, is turned and machined for barrels.
Posted By: Kyrie Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/27/21 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by halifax
Low carbon (1020) steel is rarely used in making firearms. It has very low tensile strength and is used for things like fencing or building material. Converse to your post, it is high carbon steel (1040), or similar, that is used in firearms production and 4140, or similar grade steel, is turned and machined for barrels.

True today, but historically false for most of the 20th century in most of the world. Still false for most of the parts that go into Spanish artisanal shotguns, except for the barrels.
Posted By: halifax Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/27/21 03:15 PM
Wrong. High carbon steel has been around for the past two hundred years, or more. Maybe it was used in the 16th through 18th century when muzzle loaders were being hand bored and hand cut. Since the invention of water powered lathes and grinders in the earliest stages of The Industrial Revolution, (1750 - 1820, or so) high carbon steel has been used in firearms all over the world. It makes more sense. Low carbon steel is harder to work than high carbon steel, whether is is turned (built up edge on the cutting tool), more difficult to grind (loading of the stone or grinding wheel) and too gummy for efficient drilling. All gun makers have been using high carbon steels for the past 200 years - Spain, Turkey, Pakistan included. If there is a hardness/quality issue for a gun part, it usually is in heat treating, quenching, annealing and so on.
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/27/21 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by halifax
All gun makers have been using high carbon steels for the past 200 years - Spain, Turkey, Pakistan included.

Bunk.

The vast majority of shotgun frames were made from 1018 or 1020.

This is why they were case hardened.

Wrought iron was also used.

Online references abound.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/27/21 04:16 PM
Kyrie and SGJ are correct, and there are historical references and actually composition testing results here, including some frame analysis at the bottom
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: Spanish doubles and soft steel - 01/27/21 05:51 PM
Low Carbon steel is so inferior and difficult to work that only about 5.5 million Garand rifles were built out of it. Production was so difficult that by 1943 Springfield Armory was making 3,000 per day.

8620, the material used for the receivers and bolts has 18 to 23 point of Carbon, thus qualifying as low Carbon steel. It's an alloy steel, but low Carbon just the same.

It's the ideal material. Toughness in the heat treated state is at least as important as hardness. Differential hardening has been known for centuries.

High alloy steel with Carbon upwards of 40 points can be used for receivers and frequently is. The point is that it's far from universal even today.
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