doublegunshop.com - home
Posted By: Nitrah Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/18/21 09:33 PM
If you were going to shoot 100 clays every week always using light 7/8 oz loads in a older 12 ga gun, which would you choose between Dickson Round Action, Purdey, English boxlock? All comparable condition, fit etc. Do you think they would hold up equally well?
Posted By: damascus Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/18/21 09:48 PM
It is one of those how long is a piece of string questions! Though if I was pressed I would say the box lock on the grounds of fewer moving parts to give mechanical problems.
None of the above.
JR
Posted By: eeb Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 02:41 AM
Perazzi DC12
Posted By: dukxdog Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 03:36 AM
I shoot my sxs boxlock duck guns often in the summer for clays.
Mean time between failure analysis does not apply to any one individual unit.

The information you seek is not available, and any opinions are just that.

If you have a way to get such guns fixed when they break (and all guns break) then you can afford to play the game.

Personally, I don't.
Boxlock.

Cheers,
Jani
Posted By: ed good Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 08:37 AM
one would think the purdy, based upon the hype...

but, one should have a pair and ah loader don ja no...
Frequency of repair, and cost of repair, aren’t the same thing.

Having ruined more than a dozen basic shooter class shotguns shooting clay sports over the last 25 years, I would say, a decent box lock with longer barrels like maybe a BSS, it’s about as good as you can do.

Myself, I have grown tired of sending guns off to be repaired.

Here in the United States, having a gun re-jointed is many times more expensive than it is in the UK, so, it’s a much bigger deal when your gun starts to get loose.

The browning side-by-side’s, truly are a great shotgun for the clay sports.
Posted By: Imperdix Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 11:47 AM
No different here in UK tbh,any repairs will take an inordinate time to be done and money will not alter that timescale.Sad to say that it is simpler to buy a Spanish b/l and treat it as a disposable item when it fails .Best guns are for high days & holidays,so to speak.
If you want to shoot volume it really is best to go the o/u claybuster route imho.
Posted By: builder Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 11:58 AM
Or own 52 guns.
Originally Posted by builder
Or own 52 guns.
All that does is increase the number in the broken pile.
Posted By: rtw Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 12:47 PM
I'm using a Winchester Model 21. Time will tell how well it will fare.
Posted By: ed good Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 01:10 PM
bss is a popular gun among clays shooters...
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 02:01 PM
For what you will pay I would buy box locks. In fact I’d buy about ten of them for far less money than one single round action would cost. Shoot until they break and just pickup the next one. But I would also setup a reloaded for 2 1/2” 1 ounce loads and shoot what was intended to be shot in the gun. If I wanted to shoot 7/8 ounce loads I’d get a 20.

For sheer pleasure I’d buy the round action. Tried to buy a 16 ga. Round action, with a skeleton receiver but the price just skyrocketed. I dropped out at 14,000 pounds. It sold for 20,000 pounds plus commissions. I still regret giving up and don’t know if I would have, if it were a 12, instead of a 16. One of only three made so I will most likely never see another one for sale.
I wouldn't focus on the name as much as the gun itself. My irregular clays gun (not shooting much) is a 1904 Tolley that was rebarreled likely in the 30's or 40's. The barrels have 35 thousandths of minimum wall thickness and were made with 2 3/4 chambers. I think I could put upwards of 10K 7/8 oz Fiocchi's through this without any issues. Not much of a game gun with those heavy barrels, but great for clays.
Just my personal experience. My main clays gun for over 25 years was a Greener mid grade gun. It is a 7 3/4 lb. gun. I used one ounce loads and the only failure was the top lever spring. I made a new top lever spring and it's been holding up for about 15 years. I did remove the ejector works as I believe the ejector mechanism was a probable weak point. I can switch the ejector works in or out in about 10 minutes as needed.

I did just recently switch to a heavy barreled Fox. Number one weight barrels and weighing again 7 3/4 lbs. I switched guns just to shoot something different and so far so good.
Posted By: ed good Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 02:52 PM
have arthritic shoulder...

doublegun solution is a custom made 28 ga ithaca classic doubles, with heavy barrels, that weighs eight pounds...

can shoot 25 rounds of one ounce loads, wid out pain...
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by ClapperZapper
Frequency of repair, and cost of repair, aren’t the same thing.

Having ruined more than a dozen basic shooter class shotguns shooting clay sports over the last 25 years, I would say, a decent box lock with longer barrels like maybe a BSS, it’s about as good as you can do.

Myself, I have grown tired of sending guns off to be repaired.

Here in the United States, having a gun re-jointed is many times more expensive than it is in the UK, so, it’s a much bigger deal when your gun starts to get loose.

The browning side-by-side’s, truly are a great shotgun for the clay sports.

Or perhaps Ithaca SKB, if you like something a bit lighter. They're hard to find with 30" barrels, but they did make a Model 100 Magnum with factory recoil pad and 30" barrels. In both cases (Ithaca SKB or BSS), you'll pay a premium for the 30" barrels. Stick with 1 ounce loads at modest velocity (or even 7/8 oz for closer targets) and you can likely put a lot of shells through either without needing to have the gun rejointed.
Posted By: PALUNC Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 04:33 PM
Amazing question, two weeks ago I shot a round of clays with my Dickson round action and shot my Purdey yesterday. With that said my go to side by side to shoot is my Garbi Model 100 with 29 1/2" barrels. I agree that if you continually shoot an English Best gun eventually something will break. I have an Atkin spring opener and broke a left cocking spring. Try getting that fixed here in the US. I know of only three places that will undertake that job.
But I had a friend who shot his 1909 Purdey weekly at clays putting at least 100 rounds through it each week. Till he finally broke a spring inside the lock.
Now he just shoots it on special ocasion.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 04:57 PM
I purchased a CZ Bobwhite G2 for my boy about a year ago that might be a decent candidate. Heavy enough to use on waterfowl with steel shot, it even has choke tubes. We've used it a couple of times at the local clays range and it performed admirably. He's interested, but not driven, so it mostly sits idle (cars, girls and his cellphone seem to hold more sway these days). Two triggers, English grip and a splinter for not much money (~$600). I had to get the triggers worked on by CZ under warranty (too heavy) but they did a good job on it.
Posted By: PALUNC Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 06:34 PM
Would like to add that with me yesterday shooting with two other gentlemen. One was shooting a Hussey and the other a 1880's Brewster 28 gauge hammer gun.
To add even further, a few months back my friend was shooting his Brewster and the forearm loop fell off causing the forearm to fall and chip the forearm. He was lucky to find all the pieces.
This guy told me yesterday over the last few years he has spent 3k at his gunsmith.
Posted By: BrentD Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by PALUNC
Would like to add that with me yesterday shooting with two other gentlemen. One was shooting a Hussey and the other a 1880's Brewster 28 gauge hammer gun.
To add even further, a few months back my friend was shooting his Brewster and the forearm loop fell off causing the forearm to fall and chip the forearm. He was lucky to find all the pieces.
This guy told me yesterday over the last few years he has spent 3k at his gunsmith.


I wish I were so lucky... smile
Posted By: SKB Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 06:44 PM
Yes, old guns require some maintenance and yes this can cost money. If you buy a low mileage older gun that has not been monkeyed with and take care of it you move the odds in your favor dramatically. Do any of you have own or have friends who own either horses or sailboats? If so, ask them what they spend in a year supporting the hobby of thier choosing and be prepared to gag at the answer they give you. All hobbies cost money in my experience, some more than others. If you wish to shoot a vintage gun at sporting clays then choose wisely and take care of it. You will likely be pleased with your choice. I have been shooting a 20's vintage H&H in the field over my Springers for years, something I do not regret in the least.
Posted By: Nitrah Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 06:44 PM
I appreciate the feedback. I readily accept the handicaps of my choices. I know there are other options out there, the Perazzi DC etc. I have seen a lot of guys shooting BSS and CZ target guns, they just don't appeal to me.
Posted By: BrentD Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by SKB
Yes, old guns require some maintenance and yes this can cost money. If you buy a low mileage older gun that has not been monkeyed with and take care of it you move the odds in your favor dramatically. Do any of you have own or have friends who own either horses or sailboats? If so, ask them what they spend in a year supporting the hobby of thier choosing and be prepared to gag at the answer they give you. All hobbies cost money in my experience, some more than others. If you wish to shoot a vintage gun at sporting clays then choose wisely and take care of it. You will likely be pleased with your choice. I have been shooting a 20's vintage H&H in the field over my Springers for years, something I do not regret in the least.

Firearms, especially older ones, are rather cheap in reality as they can easily be sold when you wish to recoup most, all, or maybe even more than the money you paid for them. Try that with a set of golf clubs. Not happening.

Nitrah, I'm with you on the BSS and CZs. You could throw the Ithaca SKB's in that group too (of which I have 2). For me, they are just place holders until I find something better to replace them. They do shoot admirably however.
Posted By: eeb Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 08:22 PM
I bought the DC12 over two years ago and haven’t regretted selling the 6 Parkers to get it. The trouble with vintage guns is they’re old and if shot enough need attention. Everyone knows this. Plus the guns would never fit me and I’d have them restocked. Mo money, mo money. I got tired of fixing them etc. As far as getting your money out of a vintage SxS, good luck. It’s a buyers market, when someone finally buys. Beretta makes a A nice modern SxS. I’ve heard parts for the BSS are getting hard to come by and Browning no longer supports it.
Posted By: damascus Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 08:43 PM
A gun with a high reliability and will work as regular as night follows day, low price repair though not really needing repairs. I do bereave there is a a gun maker that fits all of this requirement , though only their models from the 1950 s to the late 1970 s. I do own one of these offerings neither the guns first owner myself and the two sons have been able to cause it to falter in any way in its very overused seventy years of life. Though there is one down side on the horizon for this gun, the way things are going officialdom will put an end to its usable life is if they make steel shot compulsory though we may give it a try. It's not French. USA. German, Brit, or Scandinavian offering, it is the Russian Baikal either configuration side by side or over under they are all built like the proverbial stone built outhouse and if it should happen that the ammunition run out the gun could be used as a very serviceable club. In the realms of what if's I have always wondered what design of shotgun would Mikhail Kalashnikov have come up with?
Posted By: Thruxton Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 10:30 PM
Don't worry about steel in your Baikal even with full and half chokes. I have used Gamebore 32g of No.5 steel this summer in all 6 of my Baikals for pigeons with the occasional 36g of No.4 for geese with no problem at all. Admittedly,one of the O/U's is the multichoke 3" chamber but I still used 1/2 and 3/4 choke in that. Getting a good fibre wad is, and will be the problem but in the meantime the plaswads will give you the bore protection you need. However I still intend to gather a goodly supply of lead cartridges to see out my final years after the ban. There is hope that clay shooters will be allowed lead so 28g of Continental 7 1/2 would do very nicely for pigeons.
[quote=Ky Jon] If I wanted to shoot 7/8 ounce loads I’d get a 20. {/quote]

Amen, and Amen!

SRH
I would choose an English wildfowling boxlock in 3 inch chambering , 1 1/2 oz proofed barrels 30 to 32 inch in length and weighing between 7 1/2 lb to 8 1/2 lb . The BSA has a reputation for strength but any of the old wildfowling guns would do. Thomas Bland’s “Brent”for example or Greener’s “Empire”. Guns by Tolley , Lewis ,Thomas Wild,Gallyons, or any provincial maker from around the wildfowling estuaries there is no lack of choice.Killing two birds with one stone a Dickson round action in 3 inch chambering. Some of these old wildfowling pieces though subject to harsh conditions have probably fired relatively few shots so should have plenty of serviceable life and should easily handle 7/8 oz loads all day long. The absence of ejectors ,common with these guns ,is one less thing to go wrong.
Graham MacKinlay has a “Brent” on offer for under £500 and £500 to £1250 is as much as you would need to spend if you were to shop around though obviously you would have to pay a good bit more for the Dickson.
A more modern option is the AYA 722 , a single triggered sidelock with pistol grip designed for sporting clays and around 7lb in weight.
Posted By: BrentD Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/19/21 11:25 PM
Konor, you could get a lowly Green FP to meet those criteria, except, perhaps, the 3" chambers. But it will suffice for more or less indefinite light trap shooting.
BrentD ,A Greener Facile Princeps ? The Greener Empire is occasionally found in as new condition for around £1200 here 2 3/4 or 3 inch.
I think if you shop around here in the UK there are a few 3 inch British wildfowling guns possibly having had only one or two owners which come on the market either when wildfowling and the rigours of the foreshore become too much or the owners pass. The 8lb plus guns are ill suited to walked up rough shooting so less sought after for the average shooter but a potential good buy for the clay shot with a wildfowling past. If dealers can be avoided a fair price in a private sale can be a good buy. I was offered a Thomas Bland “Brent” from a retiring wildfowler who received it as a 21st birthday present cased with 500 Eley 3 inch cartridges and virtually unused. Being a student at the time I could ill afford it but got a good bargain on the cartridges. The AYA number 3 three inch magnum would be a cheaper alternative and has a good reputation in the UK.
Posted By: BrentD Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/20/21 12:17 AM
Yes a Fascile Princeps can easily make all of those criteria except chamber length, and perhaps some were cut at 3" also. I've just never seen one.
Originally Posted by Stan
[quote=Ky Jon] If I wanted to shoot 7/8 ounce loads I’d get a 20. {/quote]

Amen, and Amen!

SRH
I think some of you are missing the point of shooting 7/8 oz loads in a 12 ga @ sporting clays.

For us recoil sensitive shooters a 7/8 oz load at around 1200 fps in a 12 ga of typical weight is a lot more pleasant to shoot than than the same 7/8 oz load in a 20 ga of typical weight. If I had discovered the 7/8 oz 12 ga load earlier I might not have the flinching problem that I do + the load is gentle on old & new shotguns.

To get the same level of recoil with equal loads the 20 ga would need the same weight as @ 12 ga & other than use in shoots that handicap for gauge & small bore bragging rights I don't see the point of shooting a 20 ga that weighs as much as a 12 ga.
Originally Posted by Brittany Man
Originally Posted by Stan
[quote=Ky Jon] If I wanted to shoot 7/8 ounce loads I’d get a 20. {/quote]

Amen, and Amen!

SRH
I think some of you are missing the point of shooting 7/8 oz loads in a 12 ga @ sporting clays.

For us recoil sensitive shooters a 7/8 oz load at around 1200 fps in a 12 ga of typical weight is a lot more pleasant to shoot than than the same 7/8 oz load in a 20 ga of typical weight. If I had discovered the 7/8 oz 12 ga load earlier I might not have the flinching problem that I do + the load is gentle on old & new shotguns.

To get the same level of recoil with equal loads the 20 ga would need the same weight as @ 12 ga & other than use in shoots that handicap for gauge & small bore bragging rights I don't see the point of shooting a 20 ga that weighs as much as a 12 ga.

Total agreement, Brittany Man. I've been shooting 7/8 oz loads in my 12 gauge SxS's for recreational clays for many years. They work just fine and they're easier on the gun and my shoulder.
I think all the early Empires were 3 inch chamber up until 1925 and called long empires and 3 inch chambered models were made as late as the Webley take over in 1965. I think Empires were still being assembled up until around 1970. They were a popular gun here with wildfowlers who had a little more ready cash.
IF your going to do serious shooting at Sporing clays or anything, their is only one Gun to USE!

BUILT LIKE A BANK VAULT and WILL TAKE ALL LOADS THE WINNER-The BROWNING B-SS
Posted By: BrentD Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/20/21 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by dirty harry
IF your going to do serious shooting at Sporing clays or anything, their is only one Gun to USE!

BUILT LIKE A BANK VAULT and WILL TAKE ALL LOADS THE WINNER-The BROWNING B-SS KING of the DOUBLES!

I like the enthusiasm. But you keep the Browning smile

Around here serious sporting clays is like 2x in one calendar year.
Originally Posted by Brittany Man
Originally Posted by Stan
[quote=Ky Jon] If I wanted to shoot 7/8 ounce loads I’d get a 20. {/quote]

Amen, and Amen!

SRH
I think some of you are missing the point of shooting 7/8 oz loads in a 12 ga @ sporting clays.

For us recoil sensitive shooters a 7/8 oz load at around 1200 fps in a 12 ga of typical weight is a lot more pleasant to shoot than than the same 7/8 oz load in a 20 ga of typical weight. If I had discovered the 7/8 oz 12 ga load earlier I might not have the flinching problem that I do + the load is gentle on old & new shotguns.

To get the same level of recoil with equal loads the 20 ga would need the same weight as @ 12 ga & other than use in shoots that handicap for gauge & small bore bragging rights I don't see the point of shooting a 20 ga that weighs as much as a 12 ga.

I'm not missing the point. I have bought, and shot, 7/8 oz. 12 ga. loads by the case. I, however, am not recoil sensitive, and can shoot even 1 1/4 oz. 12 ga. loads without undue sensitivity. I say, in response, that those who are recoil sensitive should not be so close minded as to think that all others are as they are.

if you are okay with chippy breaks, okay. I'm not. I want dust when I'm on a clay bird. This will also help ensure dishrag dead birds in the field, not wounded runners that the dogs have to run down and, hopefully, find.

Also, flinching is not always caused by recoil. Much, if not most, of it is caused by a disconnect between the brain and the trigger finger that is a result of the brain not being "comfortable" with what the eyes see as the proper lead....... an "Afraid I'll miss" syndrome.

How do the 3/4 - 7/8 oz. 12 ga. load shooters hunt ducks, or do they? If they do, do they justify their recoil sensitivity by saying that the increased accuracy of shooting impotent loads ensures dead ducks, even with less than adequate loads? Or, do they say that because I shoot light loads at clays I can tolerate a few adequate loads at ducks? Just trying to understand a train of thought that I do not, currently. I have used the gamut of loads for game birds, from 1/2 oz. .410 loads for doves to 1 1/4 oz. for ducks. There are posters here who disparage, and disavow, the use of a .410 for doves and other small game birds. But, they promote the use of subgauge loads in a 12 ga. I don't get it.

SRH
Originally Posted by Stan
Originally Posted by Brittany Man
Originally Posted by Stan
[quote=Ky Jon] If I wanted to shoot 7/8 ounce loads I’d get a 20. {/quote]

Amen, and Amen!

SRH
I think some of you are missing the point of shooting 7/8 oz loads in a 12 ga @ sporting clays.

For us recoil sensitive shooters a 7/8 oz load at around 1200 fps in a 12 ga of typical weight is a lot more pleasant to shoot than than the same 7/8 oz load in a 20 ga of typical weight. If I had discovered the 7/8 oz 12 ga load earlier I might not have the flinching problem that I do + the load is gentle on old & new shotguns.

To get the same level of recoil with equal loads the 20 ga would need the same weight as @ 12 ga & other than use in shoots that handicap for gauge & small bore bragging rights I don't see the point of shooting a 20 ga that weighs as much as a 12 ga.

I'm not missing the point. I have bought, and shot, 7/8 oz. 12 ga. loads by the case. I, however, am not recoil sensitive, and can shoot even 1 1/4 oz. 12 ga. loads without undue sensitivity. I say, in response, that those who are recoil sensitive should not be so close minded as to think that all others are as they are.

if you are okay with chippy breaks, okay. I'm not. I want dust when I'm on a clay bird. This will also help ensure dishrag dead birds in the field, not wounded runners that the dogs have to run down and, hopefully, find.

Also, flinching is not always caused by recoil. Much, if not most, of it is caused by a disconnect between the brain and the trigger finger that is a result of the brain not being "comfortable" with what the eyes see as the proper lead....... an "Afraid I'll miss" syndrome.

How do the 3/4 - 7/8 oz. 12 ga. load shooters hunt ducks, or do they? If they do, do they justify their recoil sensitivity by saying that the increased accuracy of shooting impotent loads ensures dead ducks, even with less than adequate loads? Or, do they say that because I shoot light loads at clays I can tolerate a few adequate loads at ducks? Just trying to understand a train of thought that I do not, currently. I have used the gamut of loads for game birds, from 1/2 oz. .410 loads for doves to 1 1/4 oz. for ducks. There are posters here who disparage, and disavow, the use of a .410 for doves and other small game birds. But, they promote the use of subgauge loads in a 12 ga. I don't get it.

SRH
You are missing the point.

For me at least, there is a huge difference between shooting 100 or sometimes more shots in a day @ clay targets & shooting 10 or usually less 1 1/16 oz or 1 1/4 oz loads in a day of hunting. I don't remember ever flinching in a hunting situation but the cumulative effect of clay shooting does set my flinching off & lighter loads do help. I have had enough conversations with other shooters that I know I'm not alone on this. If recoil doesn't bother you consider yourself very very lucky. You will get no argument from me that 1 1/8 oz won't outperform 7/8 oz as long as the shooter can handle the recoil. The extra payload is harder on the gun though.
Posted By: azgreg Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/20/21 03:17 AM
You both may be missing the point. This may be about putting 5000 +- rounds a year through a 100 yr old gun. The light loads may be more to keep gun wear slow rather than recoils human effect. That’s the way I would look at it. Brittany Man’s last sentence may be the entire reason the original poster wants to shoot 7/8 oz 12 ga loads.
Thought I made both points but whatever. Certainly not worth arguing about.
I apologize for moving this thread O/T.

To answer the OP's question given the guns he listed my choice would be a quality British boxlock, preferably a heavier one with 2 3/4 in chambers & 3 1/4 ton 1 1/4 oz proof. Something like a like pigeon gun or a waterfowl gun.

For myself I am currently shooting a Perazzi DC 12 for a SxS clays gun & so far it has been trouble free. Prior to the DC 12 for SxS clays I mostly shot a CSMC 21, a Parker Reproduction Steel Shot Special & a Parker Reproduction Sporting Clays Special in that order. For what it is worth I had ejector issues w/the Parker Repro Sporting Special & I had to have the joint pin replaced on the CSMC 21.
Originally Posted by Brittany Man
Originally Posted by Stan
Originally Posted by Brittany Man
Originally Posted by Stan
[quote=Ky Jon] If I wanted to shoot 7/8 ounce loads I’d get a 20. {/quote]

Amen, and Amen!

SRH
I think some of you are missing the point of shooting 7/8 oz loads in a 12 ga @ sporting clays.

For us recoil sensitive shooters a 7/8 oz load at around 1200 fps in a 12 ga of typical weight is a lot more pleasant to shoot than than the same 7/8 oz load in a 20 ga of typical weight. If I had discovered the 7/8 oz 12 ga load earlier I might not have the flinching problem that I do + the load is gentle on old & new shotguns.

To get the same level of recoil with equal loads the 20 ga would need the same weight as @ 12 ga & other than use in shoots that handicap for gauge & small bore bragging rights I don't see the point of shooting a 20 ga that weighs as much as a 12 ga.

I'm not missing the point. I have bought, and shot, 7/8 oz. 12 ga. loads by the case. I, however, am not recoil sensitive, and can shoot even 1 1/4 oz. 12 ga. loads without undue sensitivity. I say, in response, that those who are recoil sensitive should not be so close minded as to think that all others are as they are.

if you are okay with chippy breaks, okay. I'm not. I want dust when I'm on a clay bird. This will also help ensure dishrag dead birds in the field, not wounded runners that the dogs have to run down and, hopefully, find.

Also, flinching is not always caused by recoil. Much, if not most, of it is caused by a disconnect between the brain and the trigger finger that is a result of the brain not being "comfortable" with what the eyes see as the proper lead....... an "Afraid I'll miss" syndrome.

How do the 3/4 - 7/8 oz. 12 ga. load shooters hunt ducks, or do they? If they do, do they justify their recoil sensitivity by saying that the increased accuracy of shooting impotent loads ensures dead ducks, even with less than adequate loads? Or, do they say that because I shoot light loads at clays I can tolerate a few adequate loads at ducks? Just trying to understand a train of thought that I do not, currently. I have used the gamut of loads for game birds, from 1/2 oz. .410 loads for doves to 1 1/4 oz. for ducks. There are posters here who disparage, and disavow, the use of a .410 for doves and other small game birds. But, they promote the use of subgauge loads in a 12 ga. I don't get it.

SRH
You are missing the point.

For me at least, there is a huge difference between shooting 100 or sometimes more shots in a day @ clay targets & shooting 10 or usually less 1 1/16 oz or 1 1/4 oz loads in a day of hunting. I don't remember ever flinching in a hunting situation but the cumulative effect of clay shooting does set my flinching off & lighter loads do help. I have had enough conversations with other shooters that I know I'm not alone on this. If recoil doesn't bother you consider yourself very very lucky. You will get no argument from me that 1 1/8 oz won't outperform 7/8 oz as long as the shooter can handle the recoil. The extra payload is harder on the gun though.

I may be........but I don't think so. However, you may be missing the point, of the OP. The OP said nothing in his posts about recoil sensitivity as being a concern for him. His posts read to me like the concern was with helping the gun last longer. Certainly, lighter loads will stress certain parts of the gun less. But, the guns were not designed to have to be shot with light 7/8 oz. loads. I've got no truck with someone who wants to do so if they really believe they are forestalling repairs to the gun. They are the ones paying their bills. But, having shot 12 ga. vintage doubles for going on thirty years, without using these light loads in them, I can honestly say that my gun breakdowns have not been recoil related. In fact, they have been almost non-existent. But, I don't buy and shoot what most consider typical 12 ga. lightweight game guns. I will state that, IMO, the difference in a 7/8 oz. load at 1200, and a 1 oz. load at 1150 is not going to make your gun last any longer. I think the builders of these guns would have laughed at that supposition.
Posted By: Nitrah Re: Sxs for sporting clays on regular basis - 01/20/21 04:06 PM
since I started this maybe I should clarify. I use the 7/8 oz loads for a number of reasons. Recoil is one as they are more pleasant to shoot, especially when shooting 100 clays. When hunting I use either a 12 ga B&P 1 oz High Pheasant load in my older doubles or a 1 oz factory load like AA in a newer 20 sxs. The only competition I enter is the Medford SxS Classic and I am pretty realistic about my performance, so most of my shooting is for fun although I always want to do my best. When I am on, the 7/8 oz loads I use crush birds so I don't feel I would gain much from a heavier load. A big part of using that load though is trying to preserve guns that are 100 plus years old. Years ago I used a newer Webley and Scott finished off by Dickson and shot 5,000 rounds a year for several years without any issues. I succumbed to a prettier face and switched to a sidelock and have had more issues, primarily mainspring breaks, when used in cold weather I might add. I try to learn from experience but wanted to hear others views and experience. I appreciate those that answered within my parameters.
For what it's worth (and given my knowledge and experience, it's likely not worth much) I regularly use an Ithaca-made LeFever Nitro Special for clays and hunting both. I'm a firm believer that you should "train how you fight" with the "fight" in this case being upland hunting. It's a boxlock (very similar to an A&D setup) which I purchased well used from an auction about 3 years ago. It performs extremely well and I have yet to see any signs of wear on it. It's a basic mass-produced US SxS. It's not pretty, it's utilitarian for sure, but it'll break clays and put down birds just as well as anything else. I'd be very hard-pressed to put a fancier or finer gun into service for clays and clays alone unless I was competing.
I believe that volume shooting in good guns is a non existent problem for most of us. Most of us spread our shooting over our extensive collections. Most of us are of fairly advanced age. I hardly know anyone in my group of shooting friends who could wear out one of their guns before they give up shooting, much less all of their guns. Even as a competitive shooter who was on the field four or more days a week, I always shot more than one gun. I'm just not worried about breaking a sidelock. A broken spring or whatever can happen on lightly used guns as well as hard working guns. I don't like searching for a gunsmith to fix a good gun, but it's part of the game.
© The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com