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Posted By: graybeardtmm3 french gun - 01/13/21 07:00 PM
another interesting french gun offered on gb...it's a helice type action - with the telltale left side top lever stop....but it bears some proofs that i interpret as being belgian (barrel weight is marked on water table)...and there are makers touchmarks (?) and barrel makers name (?) that are not familiar...perhaps a bit more data for Argo44's cataloging efforts....

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/889323010

best regards,
tom
Posted By: skeettx Re: french gun - 01/13/21 08:19 PM
http://www.shotguns.se/html/france.html

!2 gauge 65mm chambers

Refinished
Posted By: ellenbr Re: french gun - 01/13/21 11:21 PM
Looks to have the >>Galand Nose<< or „Fermeture Liègeoise“??

Acier Mandrine (Mandrel Steel) (Mandrine means "turned on a mandrel or lathe"; un Mandrin is a Mandrel; Mandrine is an adjective modifying the feminine noun Acier)


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: french gun - 01/13/21 11:26 PM
CHOKE RECTIFIE
J. ME?NIER

Is it J. Meunier?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: french gun - 01/13/21 11:35 PM
With the 1/2 pipe side frame reinforcement coupled with the >>Galand Nose<< or „Fermeture Liègeoise“, I do wonder if it was a Pigeon Gun? The muzzle looks odd to me, maybe lopped off @ some point or is it just the light?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: oskar Re: french gun - 01/13/21 11:54 PM
It looks like it it was cut back, sharp edges and spaces in the filler. To me the price is very optimistic considering the the condition missing screw in the forend and crack in the butt.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: french gun - 01/14/21 12:01 AM
My thoughts exactly. Even without any issues, I seriously believe it would struggle to fetch 1/2 that price?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: french gun - 01/14/21 01:41 AM
"French prewar" means what? I suppose this was pre-Agincourt, eh?

It might be an interesting project gun. That extra hole in the forearms is a puzzle. I agree the muzzles look freshly cut.

I can't say much about the price, but I see a lot of worse looking American doubles for that much or more.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: french gun - 01/14/21 02:00 AM
Can't offer much:

The usual:
-- Saint-Étienne guild gun;
-- 18.4 = 12 gauge.
-- 65 = 65 cm (2 1/2 inch chambers - "normal for France after about 1925).
-- Single proof

Poids (weight) (with "pression") 1 kg. This is the pressure it was proofed at. I don't know when this started in Saint Etienne but surely in the 1920's... You will recall Buckstix's "Cape Gun" or "Combination Gun" in the below line that we dated to 1930-31 had Pression 1100 Kilos (double proof by Manufrance).
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=587568&page=1

Barrels likely are J. Meunier - address in Saint Etienne in 1951 listed as:
Meunier, 7 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;

Standard barrels on a French Saint-Étienne gun are 27 1/2". This is 27" - if cut..it's a bit.

Perhaps the logo is his - I'll file it away and at some point might confirm it:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

The Serial number is 567 - whoever made it didn't make a lot.

There is no retailer listed around the trigger guard...so not a high quality gun I don't think.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Acier mandrine - is just an advertisement. Really means nothing.

It has the inverted screw Verney Carron key.....now for convenience called "Helice" though that term is a false one.

I'd date if for no particular reason either late 1930's - just before WWII - of just after late 1940's. - possibly WWII trophy?

Some of the other marks are strange, Will research them over the next couple of days.
Posted By: NCTarheel Re: french gun - 01/14/21 02:47 AM
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...weight-sxs-bird-gun.cfm?gun_id=101576495

What difference is this Berger Helice?
Posted By: Argo44 Re: french gun - 01/14/21 03:59 AM
NCtar...haven't a clue. There are strange markings...16 ga Saint-Etienne proofs with the laurels without the crown an "TVT" x2 between them. Did another company reserve the right to proof-mark their guns in Saint-Etienne like Manufrance? It's possible. (then again, reverse the photo..that might actually be "MF" supplanting the arrows from before). But, there is not much on that gun which is familiar. Maybe Raimey can recognize something

FTOUTACIER. is BS....Tout Acier (all steel). The seller could do a better job of posting photos. Why it is labeled "Berger" is a mystery because there's no hint of Berger & Freres on the pics. Crap job of salesmanship for a historical gun if you ask me.

To all - "Helice" is a misnomer. It has no physical meaning. If you are referring to the reverse screw Verney Carron key patented three times with variants of the "Helice" name...that is not "Helice." You'll have to say, "VC patent" or something to be correct.

(Oh heck.."Forimica" is now "plastic counter tops." "Xerox" is now "photo copy." So just call it "Helice" (if your are actually referring to the VC key) .. (but be careful because there are a lot "Helice" out there which have nothing to do with the VC patent and are just advertisements. The name was never patented).

Ted, Larry, WC - any help? Look at those proof marks!
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: L. Brown Re: french gun - 01/14/21 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by ellenbr
Looks to have the >>Galand Nose<< or „Fermeture Liègeoise“??

Acier Mandrine (Mandrel Steel) (Mandrine means "turned on a mandrel or lathe"; un Mandrin is a Mandrel; Mandrine is an adjective modifying the feminine noun Acier)

Acier is masculine.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: french gun - 01/14/21 12:36 PM
I don't know why people selling foreign doubles can't give us a good, clear photo of the barrel flats and what's immediately in front of them. Answers a lot of questions. I'm drawn to that "Helice" 16 with the small round knob and plume rib. Don't know what the MM means. Can't say I've ever seen "toutacier" before, and don't know what the F in front of it means either. Were I looking for a French 16 and had that one in my hands to take a better look, do some measuring etc, I might take a chance on it. Price, I think, is maybe a bit on the high side.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: french gun - 01/14/21 12:53 PM
Larry, what is a plumed rib? That is a term I've never heard. I don't see enough of that rib to tell see anything unusual about.

Round knob? You mean the grip?
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: french gun - 01/14/21 02:58 PM
Looks badly refinished. Bad enough that I don’t want it. That hole in the front wood is something that one sees on European guns, I always wonder if they got stuck on a pintle on a blind or a duck boat at some point?
Larry there are way better guns out there then this one.
Brent, ed will tell you all about French ribs, if you ask him.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: graybeardtmm3 Re: french gun - 01/15/21 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by Argo44
Can't offer much:

The usual:
-- Saint-Étienne guild gun;
-- 18.4 = 12 gauge.
-- 65 = 65 cm (2 1/2 inch chambers - "normal for France after about 1925).
-- Single proof

Poids (weight) (with "pression") 1 kg. This is the pressure it was proofed at. I don't know when this started in Saint Etienne but surely in the 1920's... You will recall Buckstix's "Cape Gun" or "Combination Gun" in the below line that we dated to 1930-31 had Pression 1100 Kilos (double proof by Manufrance).
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=587568&page=1

Barrels likely are J. Meunier - address in Saint Etienne in 1951 listed as:
Meunier, 7 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;

Standard barrels on a French Saint-Étienne gun are 27 1/2". This is 27" - if cut..it's a bit.

Perhaps the logo is his - I'll file it away and at some point might confirm it:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

The Serial number is 567 - whoever made it didn't make a lot.

There is no retailer listed around the trigger guard...so not a high quality gun I don't think.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Acier mandrine - is just an advertisement. Really means nothing.

It has the inverted screw Verney Carron key.....now for convenience called "Helice" though that term is a false one.

I'd date if for no particular reason either late 1930's - just before WWII - of just after late 1940's. - possibly WWII trophy?

Some of the other marks are strange, Will research them over the next couple of days.

by no means am i admiring the gun...in it's condition it is no prize, and i tend to agree that it is priced quite a bit above its likely value - but there's nothing unusual about that...

my primary interest is related to the proof markings...and the fact that some of them are not what i am accustomed to seeing on typical st-etienne guns...i question your reading of the proofs on the water table...under the right barrel it is marked "pression 850"...which during the discussion re: Buckstix's cape gun you posted information provided you by fab500 that shows that MF arrow(s) are in-house symbols equating to 850 -1100-1300kg markings by the government proof house....and i will advance my belief that they are also directly related to the stamping on each tube of a gun (forward of the flats) with the st-etienne with one-two-or three fronds.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=589110#Post589110

under the left barrel is stamped "poids 1 kg 330"....this is the mark that i have never encountered on a french gun....but it is the mark on every belgian gun...it means the barrel set as completed weighs 1.330kg (2.92 pounds)...and in my opinion has nothing to do with the proof testing....what it does do is give a very precise measure of the weight of the barrel set - as built....it's always expressed to three decimal points and could easily be used to establish if the barrels have been cut off (as i suspect these have been)....and might be sensitive enough to detect the honing of the bores....so it is potentially a very useful bit of information to help track alterations on the barrels.

but it looks very strange on a french made gun without any other belgian proofs that i can see.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: french gun - 01/15/21 03:14 AM
Thanks Tom; very interesting observations and I now see the "Compression 850" mark. Every time you post we learn something. Thanks.

I must admit that I had never seen those marks on the barrel (1.330 kg) and your explanation is excellent. Wonder if they were purchased in Belgium then proofed in Saint-Etienne. The Stephenois were complaining about Belgian competition from at least 1878...I translated a letter by Didier-Drevet to the Saint-Etienne press in 1880 after a world's fair to this effect. Raimey should be along shortly to comment.

Traditional French checkering is the "basket weave style" like this on my "Wonder."
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

I'm wondering when the French went to the easier checkering as on this gun?

Again thanks. Gene Williams
Posted By: Argo44 Re: french gun - 01/15/21 03:32 AM
Just to clarify (since I got confused)....we are talking about two different guns on this line.

1) A 12 gauge SxS 12 bore, Saint Etienne. It is possibly missing a forward section of the barrel. And it has some Belgian marks on it as Raimey and Tom both commented. Here are the proof marks and there are some strange ones I'd never seen (circle with a "C 1 2" in it, for instance) (and "Forage" - barrel drilling - D 1/2") - so much so that I made copies of them for my notebook:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

2). A 16 bore "Berger" "Helice" with the "Frond M M Frond" proof and no Belgian marks at all that I can see. Whew - might need another vodka tonight.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: T. A. Scott Re: french gun - 04/09/21 12:13 PM
What doe the "laurels" imply. I've seen some with 4 or 5 laurels. Mine has 5 and I would like to know what it means. I have a Manufrance Ideal 16Ga 1925 SXS and would love to post and get feedback. This is my first comment, so I am new to this..
Posted By: graybeardtmm3 Re: french gun - 04/09/21 05:39 PM
welcome to the site....it is my go to place for french gun information especially.

many of the french makers used some sort of in-house symbol that denoted the relative quality of their guns....usually festooned on the barrel flats. darne used a round "pointcoin" (sp?)....charlin used both a bird (swallow?) and in some cases a hare (rabbit)....and manufrance used a frond (or laurel). the more of these stamps there are indicates the relative quality of the gun....as judged by the maker. high grade darne's in particular will have quite a number of their quality stamps.

from memory, manufrance used as many as 7 or 8 laurel stamps....but 5 does indicate a fairly high level of quality...don't think i've ever seen more than that outside some really impressive high art guns. what grade is your ideal? should be marked on the bottom of the action body....as per information found here, serial numbers for 1925 production are 51,088 to 53,896....and the grades that were catalogued that year were 1 - 2 - 2S - 3 - 3S - 4 - 4S - 5 - 5S - 6 - 6S - 7E - 8E - 9EE - 9

please post photos of your ideal....good clear shots of the proofs on barrels and action flats will be useful in answering your questions....and, i'm sure that several of the crew will be along shortly....james, ted, gene and others

best regards,
tom
Posted By: Argo44 Re: french gun - 04/09/21 08:27 PM
Welcome TA. I grew up in Gainesville in the 1950's and know all about Live Oak. Would much appreciate seeing photos. To post them, you'll need to go to one of the free photo hosting sites....I use jpgbox.com....upload your photos to the site....then copy and post the code. Sounds daunting but not hard once you get into it. Gene
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: french gun - 04/09/21 10:23 PM
The “laurels” , actually sheaths of wheat, have different meaning depending on who stamped them into the tubes. Actual proof house stamps refer to the level of proof the tubes were submitted to, and passed. You can think of it in the same terms as the old Sears catalog, good, better, and best. A single mark indicates standard proof, two is double proof, and three is triple proof, since 1923. The triple proof mark prior to 1923 was actually 4 sheaths of wheat, for reasons only the French will understand.

The standard proof is, by French law, the highest in Europe, and, really, all that was ever required.

Manufrance was a company that did in house proofing. From where we sit, today, I suspect it means absolutely nothing. Was a gun that got 4, or 5, or whatever number of marks, actually built of a better grade of steel, what was the actual level of proof, who documented that, and what can we learn from that documentation, are all very much open questions.

The proof house gave you exactly what you needed to know with their proof marks. Chamber length, 65 is 2 1/2”, 70 is 2 3/4”, what powder was used, mostly powder T, a modern, smokeless proof powder, since 1900, and metric dimension of the tubes, 9” from the breech, allowing you to measure if the bores have been tampered with. You can figure out what loads you should be using with just those marks. Guns proofed with semi smokeless powders S and J are really just older, the level of proof is right there with fully smokeless powder T. Light loads rule the day in lightweight French guns, and keep them enjoyable to use.

All the other marks are pretty much just boasting and advertising.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: graybeardtmm3 Re: french gun - 04/10/21 02:49 PM
ted, i think you are confusing the "sheaths of wheat" stamped onto the tubes of french guns by the proof house at saint etienne with the quality markings placed on the barrel flats (typically on one side only). proofs placed on each tube are the result of the testing....each tube by the proof house....the quality markings that T A S has inquired about are not the result of a proof test - they are, as you note "boasting and advertising"....as such they do not require marking on each side of a sxs....v series darne's exhibit a plethora of the circular quality markings....those correspond to the 5 laurels that T A S inquires about.

only photo i can quickly locate that provides an example, see third picture

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=587625#Post587625
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: french gun - 04/10/21 03:29 PM
The only sheaths stamped on the flats of a Darne come from the proof house at St. Etienne. Since 1965, officially, and for many years prior, unofficially, a Darne typically was triple proofed. The circular marks stamped on the flats of a Darne mono block identify the grade of gun. The proof house has nothing to do with them.

There was a time when it was common to proof individual tubes for Darne guns at the proof house, prior to making up a set of barrels with them.It was called provisional proof. But, most Darne guns built since the war bear the crossed lightning bolts on the flats indicating it was proofed as a finished gun. If there is a Darne gun that bears just one of those marks, I haven’t seen it.

The sheaths stamped on a Manufrance gun that has been privately proofed look suspiciously similar to official French proof house markings.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: fab500 Re: french gun - 04/10/21 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by T. A. Scott
What doe the "laurels" imply. I've seen some with 4 or 5 laurels. Mine has 5 and I would like to know what it means. I have a Manufrance Ideal 16Ga 1925 SXS and would love to post and get feedback. This is my first comment, so I am new to this..


url=https://servimg.com/view/19398966/64][Linked Image from i91.servimg.com][/url]
[Linked Image from i91.servimg.com]

Salut,
En 1899, la MF met au point son acier Hercule.
Suivant la qualité et la finition des canons, ceux-ci seront estampillés de 1 à 5 palmes.
Les 2 documents ci-dessous vous donnent les inscriptions que vous devez retrouver sur votre canon suivant le numéro de modèle.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: french gun - 04/11/21 01:31 AM
Excellent Fab....Merci:

(Translation of Fab's comment:
"In 1899 MF developed its 'Hercules Steel.'
Afterwards the quality and finish of the barrels, were stamped with from 1 to 5 palm fronds.
The two documents above give you the inscriptions/stamps found on your barrel following the model number"


Note: The "IDEAL" models referred to above, (9EE, 12ECF, etc). can be dated a bit per this chart of IDEAL models previously published on the dating early French shotguns line; check your model number and you'll be able to identify the years it was built

For instance Nr. 6 on Fab's chart "8E..." was built from 1925-30..with following stamps (see chart for placement at "x"):
a - PT 2 couronnes - foudres (on water table: PT Powder under 2 crowns -double proofed chambers?)(edit - Fab500 established that "Foudre" - lightening - is the in-house proof of La Manu; it has nothing to do with chambers)
b - 2 palmes St Etienne (on barrel: 2 palm fronds ie double proof with St Etienne)
c - PT 2 couronnes - foudres - normal - (on front part of the barrel flats: PT powder, 2 crowns - normal chambers - 65 mm)
d - calibre - demi-choke - (on water table: gauge/bore/cal + 1/2 choke)
e - Pression 1100 kg - (on right barrel flat in front of Manufrance logo: tested pressure 1100 kg)
f - Acier Hercule trempe 5 palmes - (on left barrel flat in front of Manufrance logo: Hercules Steel hardened to 5 palm fronds)

Two new French gun terms for me - both added to the French-English, English-French vocabulary line:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480959
-- Trempé (past tense from verb Tremper) - possibly "case hardened"? (verb normally means to "soak"
-- Foudres - Chambers??: normally a "foudre" is a large cask or barrel for aging beer or wine etc. (edit - Fab500 established that "Foudre" - lightening - is the in-house proof of La Manu; it has nothing to do with chambers). See the French-English vocabulary line.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: french gun - 04/11/21 02:34 PM
Excellent information on that chart, answers many Manufrance questions. Gene, trempe’ does refer to hardening, both color case and the French gray version.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: ellenbr Re: french gun - 07/10/21 09:03 PM
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Chasing Jean Falla and stumbled on this example which Alan notes as having the Galand Nose<< or „Fermeture Liègeoise“.

http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20e%20f/a%20falla%20gb.htm

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: french gun - 07/11/21 03:11 AM
Damn, that is a good looking continental gun.....

Best,
Ted
Posted By: ellenbr Re: french gun - 07/11/21 01:57 PM
I concur 100%; Cheers. Nothing short about it.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
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