I just picked this up. I really know little about Lefevers.

The receiver and triggers are nickel. Beavertail forend.

One set of 28" barrels and a set of 30" barrels.

Let me know what you might know. Thanks!


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E grd with ejectors. I don't think the receiver and triggers are nickel, look as if they been polished. I doubt the beavertail is original. Neat find with serial numbered two barrel set.

An E Grade ejector nicely refurbished. I doubt the wood is original. The two barrel "set" may be for real, but I doubt it...Geo

This gun was very incorrectly advertised on Gunbroker as a rare variation.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/885208786

It is really just an E Grade that has been restocked and very poorly and incorrectly refinished.

The seller claimed that serious collectors told him that the beavertail forend was original and rare. Lefever never built a gun with a beavertail forend. Period. The case hardening colors on the frame are polished off, and it has been incorrectly nickel plated. No Lefever shotguns were ever nickel plated. The sideplates which were also originally bone charcoal color case hardened have been blued. This was NOT a special order feature, as the seller claimed.

The weep holes in the lower rib indicate that these barrels may have been hot blued, which can be very bad and cause the solder joints to fail. There is a good chance that the second set of barrels was purchased by the original owner from Lefever Arms Co. because one set has two different serial numbers. This was an original practice. It is a shame that a two barreled set has been desecrated in this manner.

The stock is almost certainly Black walnut. All Syracuse built Lefevers had English walnut stocks. This was not stocked by Ithaca. The style is all wrong.

Sorry to give you all of this bad news. It would cost way more than it is worth to correctly restore it. The seller covered his ass with his admission that he is not an expert. The next time you buy a gun, it might be a good idea to get accurate information before you spend your hard earned money. I'd advise you to sell it as is , and cut your losses.

Not a big deal about originality to me. I paid for a shooter not a collector. I got it to break some clays and shoot some pheasants.

I won a Lefever 5-stand a few years ago with a loaner gun. They needed a 5th shooter so loaned me one. I won it for a case of RST shotshells. I figure they might not loan me another so I have one to shoot next time

In that case you are good. Enjoy a pretty and interesting gun and shoot it without concern for loss of value...Geo

I guess Geo missed those big weep holes in the bottom rib that are a sign that the barrels have been hot blued. There have been a lot of threads and posts on this forum warning about the risk of the solder joints failing due to the corrosive hot blue salts, and ribs popping loose, Those threads also tell about the considerable cost of a rib re-lay and slow rust re-blue. The big beavertail forend will help that rib popping process too. Recoil plus increased mass of the big fat beavertail equals the inertia that puts excessive strain on the forend hanger.

The good news is that there were a number of other bidders who wanted this gun for some reason. So you can sell it and cut your losses, and buy one that is original and won't self-destruct.

I could make you feel good about this purchase... or I could tell you the truth. I chose to tell you the truth. I will do you no favors by making you feel good about a mistake. Sorry.

EDIT: It is interesting than an E Grade of this vintage does not have the sear engagement adjusting screws in the sideplates.

If you're happy, then I'm happy for you; but should you ever need to sell the gun, or your heirs decide the sell her, then I hope you didn't pay the nearly $10K the Gunbroker seller was asking. I don't recall seeing a single bid the month or so it was listed on GB.

I did see what the gun went for and it was no where near $10K. A little over 1/10 of that. At that price I'm sure he could re-coup his money if need be, but as he stated he was happy with the deal, and as you stated Tom, if you're happy, then I'm happy for you as well.

Keith... not to argue the point, but are you sure just because it has weep holes that the barrels were hot blued? They don’t appear to look hot blued. But I don’t claim to be an expert without gun in hand. Also I know I’ve seen Ithaca barrel with weep holes. I’m sure they weren’t hot blued.

battle, I said that the weep holes in the bottom rib was a sign that the barrels were hot salts blued. But mostly, my opinion was mostly based upon the pictures. The pics here are too small, but if you click on my link to the GunBroker auction, and enlarge the pics there, it appears unlikely that these barrels were slow rust blued. Some of the pics have good enough resolution when enlarged to make a good judgement call, lacking the gun in hand.

For one thing, the level of polish and gloss is above what most practitioners of slow rust blue can accomplish. The late PA24 was able to do it, and beyond. But most guys can't maintain better than a 320 grit level of polish with slow rust. I also see the same with the sideplates, safety slide, trigger guard, and screws. Some guys do drill weep holes during rust bluing, but it is more common with hot salts bluing.

And whoever screwed up this gun obviously did not know or care about proper and correct finishes and materials. So all the more reason to suspect a quick dunk in the hot salts tanks.

This gun was originally listed for a buy it now price of $10,000, which, along with the totally inaccurate description, was ridiculous. I saved it in my watch list when it was finally listed for auction. I thought it might be worthwhile as a parts gun if it went cheap enough. It would have been a much better deal at the price it sold for if it was in worn, but unmolested condition. The bad refinishing hurt the value considerably.

Sometimes the truth can hurt. But this forum is supposed to be the best there is for correct information, not leading people astray. If we just pat people on the head and tell them they did good when they ask a question about a gun they bought, then they will never learn from their mistakes. This should be a lesson to the OP and others. Ask questions and do your homework before you buy. I didn't offer my information and advice to hurt anyone's feelings.

I feel bad that this gets aired out somewhat 'in the face' of the buyer. Thankfully, for the price he paid, it's ok. But I have to agree with Keith about 'setting the record straight.' If special interest forums are to have any future value to people, they have to reflect the truth. How would you feel, if your nephew decided to drop thousands of dollars on a bench grinder-buffed gun after reading some BS about rare "silver breech" LC Smiths on a gun forum? We need to gently call a thing what it is.

The buyer bought a handsome gun...a fun shooter for the price. But if someone would have dropped 10k on that gun?!?!?

That seller...whoever he is...is either an abject moron, or a full-fledged con artist.

BTW, there is another "Lefever" on GB. Well, an Ithaca trap gun.

The gun is literally RED.

The seller told an LACA member (shared on that forum) that it's "a special order Syracuse gun." Is the seller a half-wit? Is he a con? Or is he just so hope filled for a big sale, that his judgement is clouded by desire?

Bottom line, even if it grates on a buyer to hear it, I think we owe it to future thread readers to call things out. If we're wrong, later commentors will correct us...as well they should.

NDG

"Bottom line, even if it grates on a buyer to hear it, I think we owe it to future thread readers to call things out. If we're wrong, later commentors will correct us...as well they should."

Got to agree; if we can't call it like it is on gun listings we know are designed to absolutely screw some misguided buyer, then who can or will? In my recent DGJ article on the two recently discovered A-3 Smith 20-bore guns (the only two such guns in the records) I pointed out that a fake A-3 twenty had been floating around and misrepresented as a restored original for more that 20 years; and I'm convinced that every dealer hawking that gun during that period knew it was a fake, yet represented it as restored. I was told by someone who claimed to have witnessed the transaction that the gun was sold in Tulsa for $105K during the time I was writing the story. It was sold by a dealer who represents himself as a Smith gun expert, and I know he knew the gun was a fake. During my research I learned that the gun had sold at least twice during that 20 year period, once in the neighborhood of $70K and again for $90K; but I wonder how the person who paid $105K is going to react when he learns his gun is only a $5-6K upgrade?

I hadn't seen the subject gun listed for $10k before I bid on it. I wouldn't have bid any much more for this one than I did. I've been looking for a shooter Lefever for awhile but really didn't want to pay much for one. I have no intention of being a Lefever collector.

This one I look at as a "Resto-Mod" vintage car would be. Some guys want all numbers matching cars. Other guys make modern changes to the cars for power, safety or color. To each his own.

This gun is actually quite handsome for a shooter. It will fit what I was looking for. Nice to have two barrels and pretty wood. I like the engraving.
I don't feel bad about comments made by anyone about it. I would want to hear the truth. That's why I asked. I don't think I'll loose money selling it if I do. In the time I have it I will break targets and kill a few birds.

As usual I'm late to the conversation, BUT I think you got a terrific bargain. There is nothing about this gun that can't be corrected if you choose.

Great, thanks!

I'm curious how you could call this gun a terrific bargain??? The only high points are that I assume the barrels have not been cut, and the engraving has not been obliterated. What would it cost, in addition to the $1700 already spent, to restock it in proper E grade level English walnut, strip the incorrect blue (assuming there is no damage to the solder joints), do a correct slow rust blue on both barrel sets, and other parts, then do a correct bone charcoal case hardening job, etc.?

Then when you added all of that up, how would it compare to the cost to purchase a high condition 2 barrel set E grade Lefever... that has not had collector value damaged by refinishing? An E grade is desirable, but it is not an Optimus.

With enough time and enough money, I suppose you could rebuild any jet airplane that crashed, so long as there were a few intact parts. But nobody even tries, and for good reason. There comes a point where enough damage is done that repairs no longer make economic sense.

I also do not think that duxdog would lose much money if he sold it now. There were 21 bids that drove it to where it sold, and numerous bidders who did not know or did not care that the description was totally inaccurate. If the solder joints do not fail, he can use it and probably lose no more value than if he bought a brand new shotgun. However, that might also involve using the same inaccurate description to gin up bidding interest. But if the solder joints fail, it could be a big money pit very quickly.

Sure! Going beyond the obvious wrong choice of wood which looks to have plenty left if you want to reshape to look more proper. I looked at the condition of the engraving, top rib matting and the breech face. The breech face was for all intents perfect with a very few marks on it as was the action flat. I know a skilled laser welder could fill in pts etc. and put some minor marks in it but the cost would have been, to say the least, prohibitive. Actually it looks like it was a closet queen in an earlier life. I'd probably more curious about the bore conditions, wall thickness etc. but that's just me.

I’ve always been curious about the hot blue issue on these older side by sides. Is a slow deterioration, till years later they fall apart, is it certain doom or do some guns survive the process?

As long as you get to them before too much corrosion happens between the ribs you can pull it apart, clean everything well and relay the ribs. I have done quite a few, it is a big job and costly but worth it for some guns.

I like that wood but hate the shiny sideplates. Assuming the barrels are sound, how much cost to re case color them? Also it would be nice to convert back to a slim forend.

The hot salts attack the solder. The better the solder joint was to begin with, the slower the damage will occur. And if the solder joints were done perfectly, and you could somehow be certain that all traces of the hot salts were neutralized and rinsed away, then the ribs most likely will not separate. In all likelihood, the alloy of the solder used would also be a factor. Some doubles originally had their ribs and barrels soldered with corrosive flux. Fact is, corrosive fluxes usually do a better job of chemically cleaning and preparing the surface prior to soldering, but the residue can be problematic. The tinning and soldering process should have completely displaced the corrosive flux from the steel during soldering. Then if all of the flux residue is neutralized and flushed away, there will also be no further damage. The problems start when the solder joint is imperfect, which is common in a large joint like we have in shotgun barrels, and some of the corrosive agent remains behind in those imperfect joints to slowly eat away at the solder.

I've read that simply dunking the barrels in the hot salts begins to melt the jojnts. But hot bluing temps are usually around 275 degrees F, which is well below the melting point of soft solder.

I have seen doubles that were hot blued that had obviously survived for some time without falling apart. But if the deterioration is happening between and under the ribs, by the time you know there is a problem, it will most likely be too late to avoid a costly strip, relay, and reblue. Ribs usually seem fine until they pop, and even barrels with imperfect solder joints may ring like a bell.

Very nice find. If the lack of originality gets to you, there are some good gunsmiths around who can make it right. Just enjoying and shooting it as is is the best course for now

One set of barrels with two serial numbers and the two lugs have different engraving patterns, composed set.

Thanks for that answer Keith, I learned something.

Recoil Rob, the two serial numbers mean that the Lefever factory installed a second set of barrels. This is a common marking for Lefevers that had a second set of barrels installed at a date later than the original manufacture. The different engraving patterns on the lugs are not a mystery. A different engraver engraved the second set, or, maybe the installer of the second set of barrels never saw the first set. My opinion, factory two barrel set. Nothing wrong with the price paid on gunbroker. I would have bought the gun when it was originally sold at a Pennsylvania auction, but I was interested in other items.

What does the term RED mean, in terms of the collector gun market. I'm suspicious by nature (as are most foxes that survive in today's world-- but some of the dealers schlepping the same refinished junk on GB-- wow- wish there were some code of ethics for such-but how do you enforce it. I remember seeing quite a few "up-graded" Parkers not that many years ago- another reason for shooting Trojan grade Parkers- the frame shape is a dead give-away- of course, other popular at one time Older Winchesters "up-graded"-- saw a pre-1964 M70 at a gun show a few years back drilled for a side-mounted scope- a G&H detachable- seller claimed it was a factory special order-- I checked my Roger Rule book on that-- could not verify his claim of that. You can never have access to enough sources of accurate info if you want to be a "player" in the collectible used gun market--RWTF

Thanks for lesson Bill, appreciated, never too old to learn.