Every reference I've seen to Lefever Arms H grades says they have "Best grade London Twist barrels." Knowing there are no absolutes in the classic doublegun world, does anyone know if H grades ever had fluid steel barrels? Appearances can certainly be deceiving, but I just looked at a 16 ga that sure looked like fluid steel.

The H with Carman Fluid Steel was offered about 1908

Iron Age, April 2, 1908
https://books.google.com/books?id=5U0cu_tHZy8C&pg=PA1139&lpg

Hunter-Trader-Trapper, August 1912
https://books.google.com/books?id=Uy7OAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA4-PA73&lpg

I've tried to find a Carman mill without success. Unless it's this fella
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Salisbury_Carman

There are H grade Lefevers with fluid steel barrels. Nowhere near as many as with twist, however.
One of the regulars here has an H that was factory built with one twist and one Damascus tube.

Best,
Ted

Excellent information. Thank you!

Thank you, Ted. I would love to see that damascus hybrid.

After Ithaca Gun Co., purchased Lefever Arms Co., side-plated Lefevers were assembled with a mix of remaining parts. I have a DS marked frame with cock indicator pins in the side-plates and Twist barrels.

I have a straight grip H with 32" barrels. Original? Can't say 100% but the gun sure looks original.

My H has a beavertail forend.

I have a couple of these twist barreled DS grade guns with cocking indicators and dolls head rib extension, and have seen several others with this scarce configuration. None of them exhibit any indication that they were assembled by Ithaca.

Ted and Drew were correct about H grades being built with both twist and fluid steel barrels. I own a couple fluid steel H grade guns. I'd kinda lean toward Belgium as the source of Carman fluid steel tubes though. But that is only an opinion based upon where many Lefever twist and Damascus barrels were sourced.

The Robert Elliot books and most sources say that the H Grade was only produced in 12, 16, and 20 gauge. But several years ago, I bought a 12 gauge H on Gunbroker that turned out to be a 10 gauge with 2 7/8" chambers. It is the only example of a 10 gauge H grade that I have encountered.

There are several indicators to help identify Ithaca assembled Lefevers. My gun has several but I have been told the "P" stamp on the forend hanger is always Ithaca. Maybe I have been mislead?

John

As far as I know, the P or T stamp on the forend hanger is indeed the most reliable indicator of Ithaca assembly... aside from the guns that actually have Lefever Arms Co., Ithaca, N.Y. stamped on the sideplates.

I have always felt that far too many guns with unusual features are wrongly attributed to Ithaca assembly. It never made any sense to me that a Company with chronic financial difficulties would have frames and components for many thousands of guns in inventory at the time of the sale to Ithaca. If you study them long enough and look at all of the apparent out of sequence serial numbers, it seems to make more sense that quite a few guns that were prototype models, or perhaps contained experimental features, and were probably evaluated, tested, or otherwise held back before finally being sold to either the general public or employees. Dan Lefever and his sons were always tinkering with the design. Some features were very short-lived, which can make it difficult to find parts at times.

I have an 12 ga. H with 28" twist barrels and automatic ejectors.

So... those of you with Lefever twist bbl guns, are you shooting them with RSTs or some other low pressure loads?

Just for clarification, the pattern welded tubes used in the Lefever H were labeled "Best London Twist", and "Best London Damascus Twist" by Baker.



This is a Lefever H refinished by Breck Gorman that demonstrates 2 end-on rods, which is a quite different "lopin" from Twist (alternees of iron and steel simply layered then mechanically rolled into rods, which BTW were not "twisted" before being wrapped around the mandrel.) Steve Culver believes that the "mushrooming" of the surface was from hammering.



A Twist tube with an end-on rod



Doesn't really matter as in my tensile testing study the Damascus-Twist specimens had about the same strength as the Twist, and both slightly less than Crolle Damascus
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit

The H grade I saw had doll's head extension. That one looks like a DS, no?

Sorry for the confusion. That is a Baker Model of 1897 hammer gun. The New Baker, Syracuse hammer gun also used Damascus-Twist.

John E, after reading your posts again, it appears that you are saying that your twist barreled DS grade Lefever has several features that point to Ithaca, N.Y. assembly.

I find that very interesting, because the two DS guns I own that have twist barrels, cocking indicators, LAC monogram buttplates, and doll's head rib extension do not show any indication that they were assembled by Ithaca Gun Co. Nor do any of the other guns in that scarce DS grade variation, which I have examined.

Could you please tell us the serial number range of this gun, and what other clues it has that it may have been assembled by Ithaca, aside from a P stamp on the forend hanger? It would be especially interesting to know if your gun has more than one serial number on the underside of the barrels, because some Lefever owners were scrambling to purchase extra or replacement barrels while parts were still available from Ithaca. The completed guns were being discounted up to 40% during that short three year time-span.

Keith,

My gun #59122, has Twist barrels, dolls head, and cocking indicators. Frame is stamped "DS". Sideplates stamped "LEFEVER ARMS CO.,". No address line. Forend has no escutcheon or metal forend tip. Buttstock has POW grip, no flutes at comb, and early Nitro Special checkering pattern. LOP=14" to unmarked buttplate( stock is straight cut, so maybe a replacement).
Barrel Flats each stamped "I". Left tube stamped "59122 H". Forend hanger flat between barrels stamped "59122" Forend hanger lug stamped "I" and perpendicular "P".

These indicators shout ITHACA to me.
Your mileage may vary,

John

So what do I shoot in mine? I load 1-1 1/8 oz of whatever size is appropriate to about 9.5-10K psi depending on what powders and wads I have on hand. The chokes are M/F.

docbill,

The consensus, assuming sound tubes,clean bores with adequate wall thicknesses, and tight/on face lock-up, is to stay under 9000psi. I try to stay under 8000psi and 1oz or under weights. Recoil can destroy old wood.

John

The 1913 Lefever Arms Co. catalog gives recommended loads in 12g going up to 3 1/2 Drams Black or Equivalent of Bulk or Dense Smokeless powders with 1 1/4 oz. shot, or 28 grains of Laflin & Rand Dense “Infallible”.

Comparative Loads from the Lefever Arms Co. in The Outdoorsman's Handbook, 1920
http://books.google.com/books?id=Lr1DAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA138&lpg

The “standard” pre-WWI U.S. 12g Field and Target load was 1 1/8 oz. shot with 3 Dr. Eq. (1200 fps) Dense (“Ballistite” or “Infallible”) Smokeless in a 2 3/4” case with a transducer pressure of 8,500 - 10,000 psi.
The 1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/4 Dram Equivalent (1220 fps) of Bulk (DuPont, “E.C.”, “Schultze”) Smokeless in a 2 5/8” or 2 3/4” case was still popular, with a modern transducer pressure of 8000 - 9500 psi.

John, thanks for the information. Sorry to disagree, but the only real indicator of Ithaca involvement I see there is the stamp on the forend hanger.

The 1907 59xxx serial number is a long way from 1916 or later. I personally don't subscribe to the notion that unfinished serial numbered frames were held back for 9 or more years, and have seen zero evidence for that theory to explain anomalies or unusual features in Lefever guns. And the lack of flutes at the nose of the comb became common in lower grade guns such as the H and I grades as well. I don't know what to make of Nitro Special style checkering, other than the possibility that a 113 year old field grade gun certainly could have been re-checkered, or even re-stocked at some point. And I will say that I have never heard of that as an indicator of Ithaca assembly. Having not seen your stock, or the straight cut butt and unmarked buttplate, I tend to think this stock has had some work done to it in the many years since it was built. All of the DS grade guns I have seen that have the twist barrels, dolls head rib extension, cocking indicators, etc., have had the same LAC monogram buttplate as the H Grade and higher guns.

I also checked the detailed notes I made on my own twist barreled DS grade guns. Neither has Nitro Special style checkering.

Curiously, one has the same 59xxx serial number range as your gun. My notes say it has a light H stamp under the right barrel near the serial number, and all numbers match. And the other gun has a serial number of 49xxx on the frame, barrels, etc. But it also has the same 49xxx serial number on the inside of the sideplates, and the left sideplate also has a second 59xxx serial number. It seems an odd coincidence that numbers in the 59xxx range are associated with your gun, and both of mine. I wish I had recorded details on the other twist barreled DS grades I've seen, especially the serial numbers. It kind of makes me wonder if there was a shortage of non-dolls-head frames to fill orders for DS grade guns during that period of time, so guns with H grade features were stamped DS to fill orders. Just a possible theory, with no evidence. Those long lost Lefever factory records make things difficult, and lead to a lot of confusion.

Based upon literally thousands of sales and auctions of Lefevers I've watched over the years, the percentage of DS grade guns with twist barrels and other H grade features is certainly very small. I was going to return the first one I bought, because it was advertised as having fluid steel barrels. This was before I had began to appreciate the craftsmanship and artistry of twist and Damascus barrels, and I wanted a shooter... and we all know that twist and Damascus guns are dangerous time-bombs that should never be shot! I spoke with Robert Elliot about it, and he suggested that I should keep it because they are a rare and interesting variation. I'm glad I took his advice.

This. For all the reasons you gave, plus the company was struggling, and putting anything together to get it out the door. After Dan left in 1900, the company ramped up production numbers, and most was DS or H. There are all kinds of variations...even an H with Krupp barrels.

Among a circle of collectors who track Lefever info, the "Ithaca hallmarks" are only present on less than 2% of the guns we have noted.

NDG

re: loads for Lefevers Dr. Williamson way likely pushing the envelope
October 19, 1895 Sporting Life
Dr. J.L. Williamson, of Milwaukee, Wis., has just purchased a new gun of more than ordinary proportions. The Doctor was quite taken with Carver's Cashmore gun, having long barrels and shooting a big load in a 3 1/4 inch shell; but desiring to give the American gunmakers a chance he ordered a gun from the Lefever Arms Company, of Syracuse, N. Y. but at the same time rather doubted their ability to make such a weapon as he desired. However, the gun was furnished and Dr. Williamson killed 79 out of 80 live birds on one trial, and 74 out of 75 targets, part being doubles.
The gun is a Lefever, 12-gauge, weighing 8 1/4 pounds, 32-inch barrels, and chambered for a 3 1/4 inch shell, and guaranteed to stand 4 1/2 Drams of “E.C.” powder, which is the amount of powder which he uses.
(1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dram “Schultze” was about 12,000 psi. “Schultze” pressures were somewhat lower than “E.C.”)

Dr Williamson did not compete in the 1896 GAH at Live Birds, but held the “E.C.” Cup that year; his gun was not listed
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/47243/rec/7
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/46882/rec/5

At some point he must have had some sense "kicked" into him, or destroyed his Lefever, as he used a Cashmore with 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. DuPont Bulk at the 1897 GAH at Live Birds, and was one of 5 competitors with 24 kills
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/45852/rec/4
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/46498/rec/3

Or ....... he may have shot the loads on paper and seen how much nicer patterns the 3 1/2 dr. load shot compared to the 4 1/2 dr. load.

1500 fps, compared to 1275 fps, does nothing to improve the pattern of a lead shot load.

SRH

Thanks Nudge. However, I did mention the chronic financial difficulties of the Lefever Arms Co. as perhaps the biggest reason why I find it hard to believe most of what I have read concerning the number of Lefever shotguns assembled by Ithaca.

In the years after Dan Lefever's departure, leading up to the sale of the Lefever Arms Co. and inventory by the Durston family, sales averaged only around 2500 guns per year. It wouldn't make any economic sense for a gun company in those times and circumstances to tie up several years worth of production in parts inventory. But a lot of things about Lefever guns are hard to explain, so I guess it is just easy to suggest that any guns with unusual features are the result of Ithaca production. That might wash if we saw the same sort of thing with a goodly number of Ithaca's own doubles. From what I have observed, a good number of Lefevers will have barrels or other features from higher grade guns than what is stamped on the frame. I think some of this may result from customer special requests, and some of it might be simply using parts on hand to fill orders... but only if the change was a slight upgrade. This practice of never giving a customer anything less than he paid for might explain the existence of this small number of DS grade guns that have many H grade features. And I mentioned the possibility that there may have been a temporary shortage of non-dollshead DS frames... but that is also only a guess. In many cases, Lefever guns seem to be almost semi-custom, versus the cookie-cutter production seen from their competition.

At the risk of heading down the rabbit hole again (I looked at the old threads on the topic) did anyone ever definitively prove what the "S.B & Co G" markings below mean? They are on the bbls of the 16 ga H grade Lefever from the original post.

S.B & Co G

HE Grade LAC with American Flag (?) damascus:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n...s&crop=fill

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n...s&crop=fill

PhotoBucket has confused me again about how to post a picture here. Click on the URL and the pic will probably come up...Geo

The rabbit hole is deep, and confusing

We've found these marks on U.S. doubles, and we have good evidence the marks do NOT mean Sanderson Bros. made the tubes
S.B. & Co - Sanderson Brothers & Co.; follow by
G – Gautier?
In 1882, Gautier Steel was a division of Cambria Iron Co., Allegheny Co., PA. Dudley G. Gautier was president of the Philadelphia Steel & Forging Co. and D.G. Gautier & Co. was listed as an agent for both Sanderson Brothers & Co. and Tacony Iron Works (1881-1910) of Philadelphia.
T – Tacony?
P – Sanderson‘s Pittsburgh Works?
C – Sanderson‘s Cumberland (Maryland) Works? or Carpenter Steel Company, establish in 1889 in Reading, PA which used a ‘C’ to mark their bar steel?

Here is an Ithaca Flues with the same mark



Long version is here
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

The Lefever George posted has "Washington" barrels; found on 1894 Remington C grades and occasionally on Lefever F & H grades, and very rarely a few others.



"American Flag" has tiny stars within the scrolls, and was primarily used by Ithaca



The lopins; bottom row #1 is American Flag, #3 Washington

Yep, exact same mark. My head is still spinning from trying to get through the old threads. I guess some mysteries are never meant to be solved.