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Posted By: campero Introduce myself and some questions - 10/31/20 05:12 PM
Greetings to all.

Sorry if this is not the right place to introduce myself. I´m writing from Spain and, first of all, I apologize for my bad English. I am a shotgun enthusiast and above all I like old weapons, those made by hands and by craftsmen.

I hope to learn a lot in this forum and I send you greetings.

I take this opportunity to introduce myself by showing my dear colleagues: 20 ga Bernhard Merkel Suhl (Bemesu), 20 ga W&C Scott&Sons and a 28 gauge Wiggan&Elliott single barrel. The Bemesu 'born' on October 1929; the Scott 'born' on 1898 and is for sale. The butt you see is not the original, which I have it too, but this one was made to me. The Wiggan&Elliott single barrel 'born' before 1888. The information was given to me by the owners of The Double Gun.

I also have a Browning B525 28 ga, a 6.5x55 Mannlicher 1903 and a Krico .222 Rem Mag.

I currently hunt with 28 gauge and shoot compak (sporting clays) with 28 and 20 ga.

My doubts are...

1- I think it is a Bemesu, but there´s no trademark engraving.
2- Do you know which is the Scott pattent?
3- Love my Wiggan&Elliot. Can you tell me more about this trademark?

Best regards!



















Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 10/31/20 06:12 PM
Welcome sir, on your first post here. Experts from around the world are here to help, and I am sure you will find an authoritative answer to your questions...Geo
Posted By: campero Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 10/31/20 06:16 PM
Thanks, Geo! Waiting for the answers.

Regards!
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 10/31/20 06:46 PM
I can't help with the Scott patent or the German gun, but I sure like that single shot in the last three pictures...Geo
Posted By: Steve Nash Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 10/31/20 07:13 PM
Welcome to the board!

I'm also a fan or single-shot guns.

From the IGC database, John Wiggin began as a gun maker in 1828 at 26 Whittall Street, Birmingham. By 1836 he had changed the spelling of his name to Wiggan, and in 1859 his nephew Henry Elliot joined the firm, which was renamed Wiggan & Elliot, moving to 25 Whittall Street. The firm seems to have closed in 1888.

Volume 3 of Nigel Brown's book British Gunsmiths has some serial number/year information, though it is very general.
Posted By: campero Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 10/31/20 08:59 PM
Thanks, Steve!

Interesting info, sir. Have some information about W&E throught Gregg Elliot of Dogs and Doubles, the owner of Vintage Guns and The Double Gun (all very kind with me). I have this article and the following information.

Wiggan&Elliott


Wiggan and Elliott were John Wiggan (1797-1875) uncle of Henry Elliott (b. abt 1821). John was gunmaker and tavern owner, and was a maker by 1835 in Whittall Street Birmingham. Wiggan was very successful and by 1845 was heavily into horseracing moving to his own large farm estate at Sutton Park, Sutton Coldfield and organised races. Wiggan and Elliot formed a company together abt. 1859. which ran until John's death in 1875. Henry continued the business as Elliott and Sheldon but it appears to close around 1880.

As you like sigle barrel shotguns, I´ll try to upload a video.

Regards!
Una pregunta, con su permiso, amigo nuevo de Mexico. Que es usted tiene dos escopetas hechan in Alemania?? Y tambien, algunas armas hechan en Europa, pero non de Espania?? A mi, los armas viviende en favorcon el Escritador muy famosa: Don Ernesto Hemingway--un hombre muerto, si-. pero un Rey Del Mundo hombre, no es verdad?? El Zorro
Posted By: 300846 Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 11/01/20 03:14 PM
The Patent 14526 of 1884 was awarded to John Deeley (of Westly Richards) for an ejector mechanism. The second number in your picture is the "Use Number" of that patent.This echanism weas known as the "Deeley Box"
Posted By: keith Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 11/01/20 05:32 PM
Welcome campero. Your English is actually better than a number of guys here, who were born and raised in this country.

And you have also managed to post photos here in your very first post. We have a number of guys who complain that it is too difficult and too tedious to post images. I wish I had some info to offer on your guns. But I'm sure you will learn something about them here.
Posted By: lagopus Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 11/01/20 05:52 PM
The patent number on the Scott refers to is for a Deeley Ejector for drop down actions. I can't make out the serial number and a picture of the side of the action would be most useful. It looks like a 'Reliance' model. I've only ever seen them in 12 bore so a 20 would be quite rare. Looks like it is only Proof tested for black powder.

I like the single! Lagopus…..
Posted By: campero Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 11/03/20 01:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
Una pregunta, con su permiso, amigo nuevo de Mexico. Que es usted tiene dos escopetas hechan in Alemania?? Y tambien, algunas armas hechan en Europa, pero non de Espania?? A mi, los armas viviende en favorcon el Escritador muy famosa: Don Ernesto Hemingway--un hombre muerto, si-. pero un Rey Del Mundo hombre, no es verdad?? El Zorro


Saludos desde España. Mis escopetas son de Alemania y de Inglaterra. La Bemesu es alemana, y la Scott&Sons y la Wiggan&Elliott son británicas. Todas me gustan mucho. Hemingway tuvo una Scott del calibre 12, creo, que fue con la que se quitó la vida. :-(

Originally Posted By: 300846
The Patent 14526 of 1884 was awarded to John Deeley (of Westly Richards) for an ejector mechanism. The second number in your picture is the "Use Number" of that patent.This echanism weas known as the "Deeley Box"


Thanks a lot for the info. Now I know which is the pattent.

Originally Posted By: keith
Welcome campero. Your English is actually better than a number of guys here, who were born and raised in this country.

And you have also managed to post photos here in your very first post. We have a number of guys who complain that it is too difficult and too tedious to post images. I wish I had some info to offer on your guns. But I'm sure you will learn something about them here.


Thanks, Keith. You are so kind. I hope to know more about my shotguns through the forum colleagues, but now the Scott is for sale.

Originally Posted By: lagopus
The patent number on the Scott refers to is for a Deeley Ejector for drop down actions. I can't make out the serial number and a picture of the side of the action would be most useful. It looks like a 'Reliance' model. I've only ever seen them in 12 bore so a 20 would be quite rare. Looks like it is only Proof tested for black powder.

I like the single! Lagopus…..


Thanks so much. By the serial number I know this shotgun was made in 1898. But I´ve got a doubt... What is the meaning of the gold cross? And yes, the single hammer have something special and I love her... Yes, for me, my shotguns have her own personality!

Regards to all!
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 11/03/20 01:12 PM
Originally Posted By: campero

Thanks, Keith. You are so kind. I hope to know more about my shotguns through the forum colleagues, but now the Scott is for sale.


George will take it off'n yer hands he once bought a tOmato stake.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 11/03/20 03:11 PM
At least it was a Boss tomato stake...Geo
Gracias-- Tienes buenas arms de fuego. Y tambien tiene razon sobre la escopeta cal. Scott 12, y e; difunto Don Ernesto Hemingway. Que desperdico de talent. "Aquellos a quienes Los Dioses donan con grandeza talentas, tambien destroyen con locora"

Ernesto con "Papa Dobles" en La Floridita y los putas-- Un Escrititor muy grande, pero tambien un Borrachon! Que Lastima-- El Zorro
Can you get a matched pair of tomato(tomatoe?) steaks-beefsteak stakes perhaps. Boggles the mind, does it not?? RWTF
Hola, amigo mio. Ha pasado un tiempo desde que charlamos en tu lengua materna, disfruoto haciendo eso. Espero que tu tambien mi vecino ,el tiene un calibre AYA 12, y le dispara muy bien faisanes. Me encantaria recibirte para una caceria de aves acuaticas aqui en Michigan, Si tus caminos de alguna manera te llevarav a Michigan.. Con mucho gusto, Sr. El Zorro.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 11/11/20 01:25 PM
Will you pleasure us with some image of the touchmarks on the BEMESU?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Mi nuevo amigo de Espana. Usted puede confiar en el Sr. Ellenburgh, para obtener informacion precisa sobre casii cualquier escopetas o rifle hecho aleman o austtriaco, o una combina de los mismos. Na pasado toda una vida estudiandolos, recogien dolos v disparandoles. V es muy generoso al compitir sus conocimentos con nosotros, libremente, en el foro aqui de la DoubleGunshop. Y tambien, El Sr. E habla con fluidez la lengua Alemana. El Zorro!!!!
Posted By: campero Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/26/20 05:57 PM
¡Muchas gracias por vuestras palabras!

Lo único que sé de la Bemesu por sus punzones es que se fabricó en octubre de 1929. En cuanto pueda pondré fotos de los punzones para que el señor Ellenburgh (Raimey) las vea.

Zorro, eres muy amable por tu invitación.

¡Salud y buena caza!
Posted By: arrieta2 Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/26/20 08:43 PM
Just wondering what part of Spain are you in as I have done much business in the Basque country?


John Boyd
Posted By: campero Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/26/20 09:14 PM
John, I live in Extremadura, in southwest of Spain.

Regards!
Posted By: CJO Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/27/20 10:44 PM
Buenas tardes desde Canadá Campero y bienvenido al grupo, me encanto vuestra escopeta Alemana, aunque no se puede apreciar en detalle pero parece ser de alta gama. Quizás, si no le molesta...que le parece postear unas fotos mas detalladas de su báscula

Muchísimas gracias

CJ

BTW.... your English is excellent
Ola, Sr. A mi te gusto todos los escoptas hechan en Alemania-tambien los hechan en Espana. Merkel, Kreighoff, Sauer, Gebruder Adamy- y tambien AYA, Grulla-- Yo espero algun dia que tener uno de los en mio manos--Boom!! El Zorro!!
Posted By: campero Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/28/20 09:58 AM
Gracias a todos por vuestras palabras.

Pongo algunas fotos más de la Bemesu. Y digo Bemesu porque esa creo que es su identidad, aunque en la escopeta marca BOPE (Banco Oficial de Pruebas Español), punzón que se marcaría cuando se importó y entró en España.

La escopeta se fabricó en octubre de 1929 (10.29), tiene un buen acero (Boehler-Stahl) y la firma del armero que hizo el cañón (A. Kowalski, de Ahorn, en Alemania). Tiene detalles, como el grabado del segundo gatillo para identificarlo y no resbalar.

Creo que el grabador original estaba borracho (!!??) el día en que marcó los punzones en esta escopeta.











[img]https://i.ibb.co/ZMw1kV4/IMG-20201228-102442098-3.jpg[/img]

Espero que os guste y podáis contarme aspectos que yo no sé ni veo en esta paralela germana.

¡Saludos!
jawohl, meine Fruended.. Sicher in Deutsche und Seguridad en Espanol, si como no?? Eine bocksflinten de einer klassen, Ja!! El Zorro- Der Fuchs!!
Posted By: CJO Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/29/20 07:03 PM
Eso es hombre.....esas son fotos!!
Como sospechaba es muy bonita y para mi fue fabricada con báscula Sauer por algún armero artesanal Alemán de la época.
Pero mejor continuar en Inglés para dar lugar a que opinen los verdaderos expertos en el tema.

—————————————————————————————————————-

I think the gun has Sauer written all over it but not so sure of the maker.

Maybe the real German gun experts will chime in and reveal the correct pedigree


All best

CJ
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/29/20 08:44 PM
No, not sourced from BEMESU or Sauer as it passed thru the Zella-Mehlis proof facility in late 1929. Interesting ledger stamp of a fraction though? Looks like the tubes were worked after it was originally finished.

Although the longarm wears the name of Büchsenmacher Adrian Kowalski in Ahorn, I do not find him in any period listings. However, I do see that he is currently active. Maybe he performed some task on it in recent times.

I don't know if the engraver was a temperance man or not, but Suhl engraver & historian Henrik Frühauf might be able to identify the engraver.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/29/20 10:53 PM
Any touchmarks on the standing breech(area between the strikers) or on the water-table?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: NCTarheel Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/29/20 11:20 PM
Looks a lot like my Simson...my barrels are away at present, so I cannot compare proof marks, but I believe both started at the same factory.
Posted By: campero Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 09:57 AM
Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
jawohl, meine Fruended.. Sicher in Deutsche und Seguridad en Espanol, si como no?? Eine bocksflinten de einer klassen, Ja!! El Zorro- Der Fuchs!!

Ja, Zorro! smile grin

Originally Posted By: CJO
Como sospechaba es muy bonita y para mi fue fabricada con báscula Sauer por algún armero artesanal Alemán de la época.
Pero mejor continuar en Inglés para dar lugar a que opinen los verdaderos expertos en el tema.

CJ, a german engraver told me that A. Kowalski made the barrels. I don't know who made the gun, but I think it was Bernhard Merkel Suhl (BEMESU). Pictures can resolve this question.

Originally Posted By: ellenbr
No, not sourced from BEMESU or Sauer as it passed thru the Zella-Mehlis proof facility in late 1929. Interesting ledger stamp of a fraction though? Looks like the tubes were worked after it was originally finished.
Although the longarm wears the name of Büchsenmacher Adrian Kowalski in Ahorn, I do not find him in any period listings. However, I do see that he is currently active. Maybe he performed some task on it in recent times.

I don't know if the engraver was a temperance man or not, but Suhl engraver & historian Henrik Frühauf might be able to identify the engraver.

Raimey, what a surprise! Can you explain more about Zella-Mehlis and why you say is not a Bemesu shotgun.

Have you got Frühauf contact for send him the pictures?

Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Any touchmarks on the standing breech(area between the strikers) or on the water-table?

Sorry, Raimey, I don't understand you.

Originally Posted By: NCTarheel
Looks a lot like my Simson...my barrels are away at present, so I cannot compare proof marks, but I believe both started at the same factory.

Another possibility! A Bemesu, a Simson... ?? I don't see any horn trigger guard in a Simson gun, so I supose mine is a Bemesu, very similar to some SxS of the catalogue.

Thanks everybody!
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 11:30 AM
http://www.gebrueder-fruehauf.de/

Serbus,


Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 11:34 AM
Well, the proofmarks are what for the most part show the area of origin and unless there were some extenuating circumstances, a Suhl mechanic just would not send his wares to the Zella-Mehlis proof facility or source from Z-M as Suhl considered the mechanics in Z-M to be inferior to them or a >>red headed step child<<.

For now I don't see any maker's marks less the typical >>R<< beside the tube steel stamp, but that just notes where the tubes were sourced. There may be other marks on the standing breech or on the lower rib.

Standing Breech image:

http://www.hallowellco.com/standing_breech.htm#:~:text=The%20face%20of%20the%20action,recoil%20of%20the%20fired%20round.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 12:12 PM
Otto Zöller of Zella-Mehlis could have been the engraver, but this is just a wild guess.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 01:40 PM
Oskar Will / Venus Waffenwerke peddled such an Anson & Deeley Body Action with horn triggerguard. But this too is just a wild guess.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: campero Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 03:45 PM
Thanks so much for the information and help, Raimey.

Regards!
Posted By: campero Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 04:27 PM
So, the question is to know the identity of this shotgun: Bemesu, Simson... More pictures.

The same proof marks and the word "Nitro" in both barrels. No mark, no word, in the top rib.





Posted By: ellenbr Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 04:36 PM
Note the >>Imperial Eagle<< on the right side of the water-table which notes that Büchsenmacher Adrian Kowalski in Ahorn sent the longarm thru a German Proof Facility in recent times(May 1990).
The chambers must have been lengthened to 70mm then and that is the reason for the 70 at the bottom of the left barrel flat?

Script >>NITRO<< denotes a pass thru the Z-M Proof Facility.

Nice menacing muzzle.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: campero Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 05:24 PM
Thanks again, Raimey!

Do you think the gun was sent for reproof in May 1990?

What's the meaning of the eagle mark?

Posted By: ellenbr Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 06:01 PM
Yes, it passed thru the München Proof Facility in May 1990 and the Imperial Eagle just denotes that it passed. Many times there is a character/letter under it. The meaning for the Imperial Eagle has changed since its inception along with advances in powder.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 07:25 PM
Here is my 3cents worth. The nice gun shown was likely re-built in the 90s from a plainer gun made in 1929 and proofed in the Zella-Mehlis Proof house. While seemingly unusual, it is possible the gun came from one of the Suhl makers, unfinished , then finished and submitted to the proof house by someone in or around Zella-Mehlis. It was, and is, common for manufacturers to sell, to "the trade", guns in various stages of completion to others for final completion. Much later, it was likely re-stocked, re-chambered, profusely engraved, re-finished, and submitted to either the Munich Proof House or Munich's sub-facility in Mellrichstadt(?) for a new proof. The horn triggerguard could have been original, or added in the re-work. As far as the engraver being drunk when he stippled the background; it could be possible, but there is no way to know now. The most likely explanation for the mistakes is the background was not likely done by the engraver, himself. Such background work was, and is, usually done by less experienced persons training to be engravers. It could have been anyone, even the 15 year old daughter of the engraver; the identity is not known now. The gun should be accepted for what it is now, a fine gun, and what it used to be is no longer important.
Mike
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 07:56 PM
Ford may be on the right path but I am not sure when the adornment was added or edited. A kommuniqué to Büchsenmacher Adrian Kowalski in Ahorn might net some answers as he reworked the tubes & may have noted the original maker's stamps? Is there anything on the buttplate?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: campero Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 09:44 PM
Mike, thanks a lot for your words. Yes, may be this shotgun is a "white gun" that went from hand to hand. I don't know.

You said: "The gun should be accepted for what it is now, a fine gun, and what it used to be is no longer important". You're write and I'm agree, but the history of each shotgun is something that interest me a lot. It is like a human life.

Raimey, do you know if Kowalski still alive? The shotgun haven't the original pad when I bought it.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/30/20 11:59 PM
He may be alive, but he may or may not be active. I see some activity in 2009: Adrian Kowalski in Ahorn, Hohenstein Nr. 5, 96482. Although I cannot find a telephone number nor an email address.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 12/31/20 12:04 AM
Büchsenmacher Adrian Kowalski in Ahorn is only say 50km South of Suhl so Frühauf just may have knowledge of him?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: campero Re: Introduce myself and some questions - 01/01/21 06:01 PM
Thanks again, Raimey!

I'll try to contact with him.

Regards!
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