Here's my predicament,I've always loved sxs guns and I've decided to sell off some guns I don't use and buy 2 nice sxs's.i will have enough $$ for one now and another in a year or so

I've spent more time hunting with a 20 gauge than a 12 so im really fond of that bore but I see i can get 12 gauges in the 6.5 lbs range and it make me wonder if I should spend my money on a good Spanish 12 or a 20 first?
I will be hunting grouse and pheasants over a pointer.
What do you think?

Split the difference and get a 16.

A lot depends on how much you want to spend and whether you're going new or used. A new Spanish SLE is approaching 5 figures. Used ones are probably to be found in the mid-4 figures range. BLEs are cheaper, but lack some of the aesthetics. There are a ton of British SLEs in 12 out there and you can probably find one in your weight class in the mid-4s range, but it will likely have 2-1/2 inch chambers. British 20s are much less common. If you can live with the styling, there are a fair number of Germanic BLEs in 20 gauge available, most for under $3K. And there are some wonderful Italian sxs 20s out there, but they are likely to be pricier if you are trying to find one that is under 6 pounds.

You have to decide what you want, how much you'd be willing to spend to adjust things like LOP, chokes, etc. if you find a gun you like that needs to be adjusted to fit you and your intended use.

As an aside, short barrels (25-26 inches) are out of fashion these days, so you could find a gun so equipped for less than the same gun with 28-30 inch barrels and if the primary use is grouse, that might even be an advantage.

Look around a lot, handle as many different guns as you can and then make a decision.

Good luck with your search. It's a ton of fun.

Rem

225:"split the difference and get a 16"...

perhaps the best post you have ever made on this fine forum...

goose, see the 16's and 20's i have listed in the for sale section of this fine forum...

you may qualify for free shipping...

You can probably get more gun for your money with a 12 than a 20 in the current market. That said it all comes down to finding something with the features you want and the fit, if buying used. New would be a toss up.

Its going to be a used gun and in the 4ish range if I can sell a few first.

It's possible to find something new at a reasonable price. There are Rizzini br550's around for about 3k. They could have choke tubes and be steel capable. Some thoughts on one or two triggers, stock configuration, etc. would help the hunt. My opinion is pro 20 gauge. Same ammo variation available as a 12 and possibly a little less recoil.

Tubes would be fine, heck if I got a good enough deal on one choked wrong I would be willing to send it out to have tubes installed. On a 20 I want 2 triggers, the 12 one would be better because after I buy a 20 later it would be my late season gun.

I finally found something I agree with nca225 about, get a 16, but make it German, American, British, or Belgian.
Mike

dont buy new...less you wanna loose money instantly, due to depreciation...

an dont buy a 12...resale market is mostly flat...due to over supply and dwindling demand...

small bore double guns made by parker, fox, browning and ithaca are your best buy...pricey, but destined to appreciate in value due to limited supply and increasing demand...stay away from smiths...they are flat now...

buy the best you can afford...an if you find something that appears to be to good to be true and is a steal...be very careful...cause it may not be true and the seller may be trying to steal from you...and if the seller will not guarantee what he is selling...run...

+1! But I would not disregard all Spanish guns, just older ones and ones from low quality manufactures. An AYA 453 in a 16 would fit the bill quite nicely.

european made guns are a tough sell due to lack of knowledge by american consumers...and spanish made guns are the kiss of death...

Among my other shotguns I have Beretta 687's in 12 and 20 gauges and AyA No 2's in 12 and 20 gauges. My AyA's have fixed I/C & MOD chokes and the Beretta's might as well have fixed I/C & MOD because they only come out for cleaning to be sure they don't get stuck in the gun.

Last week I took the Beretta's to South Dakota on a 3-day pheasant hunt but only used the 20 gauge and never felt undergunned. If invited back next year I'll take my AyA and Beretta 20 gauges and probably shoot the AyA because I prefer SxS's and keep the Beretta as a backup.

My wife has a 20 gauge Grulla side-lock ejector and a 16 gauge Ugartechea boxlock ejector. She much prefers the 20 gauge and shoots the 16 infrequently.

I like 16's, especially my 1866 Joseph Lang, but keep in mind that cartridges can sometimes be difficult to find so you must plan ahead with a large inventory or reload.

Good hunting for the perfect sxs. I reach for my AYA #1 28 gauge for grouse 8 out of 10 times. If I was only buying 2 sxs, I would recommend a 28 and a 16. The other two times Before someone asks is AYA XXVbl, in 12.

12s and 20s draw me because I lost the inclination to reload and like to shoot my sxs guns at clays too. Target ammo is just so much cheaper in 12 and 20 than 16 most of the time. But I do have a 16 Fox ejector that is about 6 1/2 lbs.

Someone mentioned a Rizzini BR550. I just bought one, but have only shot one round of clays with it. I like the gun fit and finish.

If you're going to buy a Spanish gun, read up a bit. There are some bumps in the road. You might also pick up a copy of the book Spanish Best by Terry Wieland. One of our gunsmith members, SKB (Steve Bertram), had some negative experiences working on some Spanish guns and may be able to provide you some insight.

When I hunt birds, I shoot a 1 Oz load in a 12, 16 or a 20. I don’t see much if any difference in effectiveness on game.

Took me quite a while to get here, but this is exactly where I am now. It's the load and the handling characteristics of the gun I look at now, not what gauge is it.

I'm like buzz 1 oz of shot out of any of them is ust about the same. I have a couple 12's in the 5 lb 15 oz weight that I use hunting. When target shooting skeet/SC MY shoulder like a little heavier.

Strictly one ounce of #7 out of my 12’s and 16’s for just about all hunting. I think the 12 has a very slight edge over the 16 with a shorter shot string. But it’s mostly in my head, I guess, not at the receiving end. For all clay sports I shoot 7/8 oz of #8 and that includes SC. But I am NOT a competitive shooter.

Joe, I wonder if it were possible for any one of us to measure shot strings out of several different guns, of several different gauges, using the same (let's say 1 oz.) payload, if there would be individual small bore guns that might have as short, or shorter, shoestrings because of the way the individual gun is bored, choked, the forcing cone in it, bore diameter, etc.

After reading Brister, and after 60 years of shotgun patterning, one thing I take away is that each gun is an individual, and if you try to fit them into a "mold" or make broad sweeping correlations about them based upon gauge, load, or even "common knowledge", you will be shown to be wrong at some point.

SRH

This is part of my question, if you have a 12 and a 20 and they both weigh 6.5 lbs and balance and fit the same does it matter which one you buy?

20 ga shells take up less room in the shell pouch but weigh pretty much the same as 12 ga if both are loaded with 1 Oz of shot.

I’d expect the 20 to have sturdier barrels compared to the 12 with the same overall weight. I’d opt to buy the gun I liked the look of best if weight balance and fit were equal though.

20s are for ladies and kids. They might be alright for quail. Personally, I like the 16 for grouse and woodcock.

Much as we might wish it to be so Stan, it's highly unlikely.

The shot charge from a cylinder bore gun leaves the barrel with a longer string the smaller the bore for a given shot weight. Nothing can change that.

Choke, any choke at all, induces a speed differential between the leading and trailing pellets as shown by photography.

There is simply no mechanism at play that can possibly shorten the shot string once it's free of the barrel.

Does it matter much? Only on fast and long crossing targets.

Shoot what you like, but don't expect your favorite rig to defy physics. The ideal shotgun would have a bore the size of one layer of shot. The shot string would be zero, all of it arriving at the plane of the target at the same time.

Yes, buy the one that is prettier, in this particular case.

Thanks, SJ. The voice of reason. In practice, length of shot strings is not something I concern myself with, except to the extent that I limit the range of my shots much more stringently the smaller the bore.

Only predicament I see is the cOOl factor you seek.

Why throw good money at a Spanish sxs when a Browning 20 ga. over and under will fill the bill better ?

You must've been patterning before patterning was kOOl....60 years.

Hmmm

Started patterning at about 8 with a J C Higgins .410 double, shooting it at water. Not very sophisticated, but it can be eye opening for a kid.

SRH

IMO, gauge is one of the last factors needing consideration. You have to get to heavy loads before the 20 won't do it. BTW, gauge has nothing to do with recoil other than 20 gauge guns are more typically lighter in weight which means more recoil for the same load. 12 and 20 gauge guns both come in wide enough variety you should be able to find one to suit your needs with no regard for gauge.

DDA

I ended up buying a 6.1lb 20 gauge. Next up is a 28 then I'll think about a sxs 12.

Stan, have you read Dr. Jones' book on patterning?