Help required please .
I am currently researching the history of the 'Try Gun' any notes , information , or history will be appreciated .
Many say that William Palmer Jones invented the 'Try Gun' but I can find no evidence of that .
Any information or other names will be a help .
Patent No.1157 of 1889 - W.P. Jones
Ithaca's A.P. Curtis patented a trap gun. Made 11 or 12 for Ithaca and took his design to LC Smith.
Has anyone come across a hammer try gun?
Walter, A.P.Curtis also made try guns for Parker Brothers. I own one. I have also seen a Lefever A.P.Curtis try gun. It is or was in North Carolina.
A.P. Curtis Try Gun
"Recreation", December 1914, "Your Shotgun Affinity"
https://books.google.com/books?id=DYA7AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA323&lpghttps://books.google.com/books?id=DYA7AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA347&lpg
A.P. Curtis invented the L.C. Smith 'Curtis fore end fastener' and worked for the HAC from 1899 - 1917; as plant superintendent during the last seven years of his employment. After WWI, he worked at Winchester, Ithaca, Iver Johnson, and Marlin. He returned to Fulton in 1940 and was the general manager of HAC until his death in 1941. He was also a prolific writer. Forty one of his articles were published from 1909 to 1940 and he authored "America's Double Hammerless Shotguns".
Westley Richards Try Gun
https://www.theexplora.com/the-westley-richards-try-guns-for-shotgun-measurements/ Lancaster Try Gun c. 1890
https://books.google.com/books?id=O2GzwW9tKCoC&pg=PA15&vq "The author has invented an adjustable try-gun (patent), which is constructed with the stock perfectly rigid in the hand, being made to move in right lines (and not bodily, by the means of a knucklejoint in the hand of stock, which necessarily describes the section of a circle), therefore the author's does not give an excess of bend or cast-off, yet it can be adjusted for cast-off, bend, and length, also for set of toe or heel of stock, so as to be correctly adjusted to what is required for any individual sportsman, to enable him to make accurate practice when firing at either targets or game ; or the author's original adjustable gun (with specially constructed fittings) can be handled to demonstrate that the measurements taken by him are correct as to bend, length, and cast-off, thereby showing that the gun to be supplied will be suited to the purchaser."
This is the Curtis design.
Thank you for all the input , interesting to note that William Palmer Jones is credited by many to have been the inventor in 1889 .
William Ford , barrel maker to W.W.Greener I believe made a trygun in 1870 so he may have been the actual inventor.
I also recently learned that W.P.Jones may have actually patented many inventions and ideas that were actually those of William Baker 1858 -1932 of 7 Bath Street Birmingham.
Steve Helsley ,
Do you have any more details please , a link to the patent ?
The link that Reverend Drew posted is a picture of Curtis try gun #4. My Parker Curtis try gun is #5. Drew, what make of gun is #4? I have always doubted that my #5 is the fifth Parker try gun he built. My guess is that A.P. Curtis numbered his guns in his order, not within a brand.
Drew ,
That type of articulation was often manufactured by John Wilkes Gunmaker London . H&H have a number of them .
The other more common type of mechanism was and still his today manufacturer by Wiseman Gunmakers formerly of B'Ham , now of Cannock in the West Midlands .
Yup, Drew, I have had this $18,000 (asking) gun in my hands, and the owner would not sell. My Parker has a little more suspected provenance, is also not for sale. But $18,000? I don't know. I think it may be time to sell. How old is this ad?
Drew, I like my #5 Parker try gun better than any of the others because the grip area is not disturbed by the mechanism. Even the #4 Curtis (looks like a Smith from the Woodward style Prince of Wales grip shape) has mechanism in the grip. The $18,000 Lefever is like my Parker with an undisturbed grip area. This mechanism is unneccesary because my #5 Parker can be adjusted for cast and offset without a mechanism in the grip. I think you may have pictures of my Parker from Patrick Lein. The pictured Smith was probably made at a time when Curtis was not superintendent at Hunter Arms because it doesn't seem to be a Curtis design.
I too have pictures of Eightbore's Curtis Parker try-gun but won't share them without Eightbore's permission.
Knock yourself out, Dean. I like seeing pictures of my guns on the internet. I love posting them also.
Keep the information coming please .
WP Jones is credited with patenting the 'try-gun' but obviously Lancaster and I believe William Ford were the first with William Ford possibly being the very first , possibly with instructions from W.W. Greener. Let's get to the bottom of this if we can.
Dean, please post the pictures of the Curtis Parker try gun. They would be a great addition to this thread.
ICC on Charles Rosson of Derby, and no mention of his try gun
Name Dobson & Rosson
Other Names Charles Rosson; Rosson & Son
Address1 4 Market Head
Address2 12 Market Place
City/Town Derby
County Derbyshire
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmakers
Other Address
Dates 1877-1950
A Francis Rosson was in business in Colchester Street, Whitechapel in 1811, he may have been the brother of a Charles Rosson (I) (b.1816) who was born in Whitechapel, London, and possibly the brother of Thomas Rosson (date of birth unknown). Francis, Charles I and Thomas may have moved to Birmingham at some time before about 1837 when a firm named Rosson & Son were recorded. A gun dated prior to 1840 and engraved Rosson & Son, Birmingham, has been seen. Thomas Rosson was recorded as a gun maker at Court, 22 Lancaster Street in 1838. Charles I was recorded as being in business as a gunmaker at 56 Hatchett Street, Birmingham, from 1840 to 1856. In 1857 Charles I moved to 19 Livery Street, Birmingham, and in 1859 he appears to have opened a shop at 46 Market Place Warwick. Several Birmingham gunmakers, Edwinson Green is an example, opened and supplied their own provincial retail gunshops rather than sell at trade prices. Also in 1861, a G Rosson was recorded as a stockmaker at 1 Whittall Street. It is possible that he was related, but the relationship is unknown. In the 1861 census, Charles I (aged 45) was recorded as a gunmaker employing 1 man and 1 boy. He was living at 19 Livery Street with his wife, Sibyl (aged 42), their son, Charles II (b.1842) an apprentice gunmaker, four daughters aged between 19 and 5, and another son, William Henry Belinda Rosson aged 1 year.
It has been widely reported that Charles (II) was apprenticed to John Francis & Co of 31 Whittall Street, and then worked for Hollis & Sheath. The reverse is probably correct, because Hollis & Sheath traded from 1849 to 1861, and John Francis & Co traded from 1860 to 1867. As stated above, Charles II was born in 1842, he would not have been apprenticed until he reached the age of 14 in 1856. It is possible that Charles II, having ceased working for John Francis & Co when they closed in 1867, then worked for his father in Birmingham or in Warwick if indeed, the Charles Rosson of Warwick was part of his father's business. The Warwick business closed in 1870. In 1873, Charles II opened his own business in Birmingham, the firm was was named Charles Rosson Jnr, and it was recorded at 20 St Mary's Row. Between 1874 and 1878 the firm moved to 8 St Mary's Row. It was not recorded after 1882 but may well have traded up to about 1900, a double barrelled hammer gun engraved C Rosson, 13 St Mary's Row, Birmingham, has been seen and dated to about 1900. Whoever Charles II had been working for, himself or his father or someone else, in about 1877 he went into partnership with R Dobson. This suggests that they knew each other quite well, they may have worked together, alternatively, Charles Rosson Jnr may have supplied R Dobson with guns. In 1868 R Dobson had bought the business of Frederick Gates at 4 Market Head, Derby (for further information about Charles II in Derby see Dobson & Rosson of Derby). In the 1881 census Charles I (aged 65) was recorded living at 22 Weaman Row with his wife, Sibyl and their son William Henry Rosson (aged 21) a gun finisher. This Weaman Row address has not been recorded elsewhere, so it seems that the Rosson family and this business did not occupy the premises for long. It would appear that the firm closed in 1882/3. A Charles Rosson died in Birmingham in 1892, this was probably Charles I. In 1868 R Dobson (formerly employed by Thompson & Son of Edinburgh) bought the firm of Frederick Gates at 4 Market Head, Derby. Although it has not been confirmed, he reportedly moved the firm to Rotten Row in 1870, but in about 1874 his address was recorded as 4 Market Head.
The name of the firm did not change until 1877 when Charles Rosson (Charles II) joined as a partner, and the firm of Dobson & Rosson came into being. The partnership between Dobson and Rosson suggests that they knew each other quite well, they may have worked together, alternatively, Charles Rosson (II) may have supplied R Dobson with guns. R Dobson died between 1878 and 1881. The 1881 census records Euphenia Dobson (aged 44), a partner in a gunshop, as born in Scotland in 1837. Clearly she had inherited her husband's share of the business. It also records a daughter Mary (b.1866) and three sons, James Dobson (b.1869), William O Dobson (b.1871) and Charles I (I) Dobson(b.1876). Only Charles was born in Derby, the others were born in Scotland, so it seems that Euphenia returned to Edinburgh to have her first four children. Charles Rosson (II) initially lived at 5 Duffield Road, Derby. The 1881 census records Charles II (aged 39) living at 108 Uttoxeter Road, Derby with his wife, Sarah (nee Armroyd b.1843), two daughters, Annie S (b.1875) and Florence E (b.1878), Percy (James) (b.1879) and Charles S Rosson (Charles III) (aged 10 months born 3 June 1880). On 30 September 1889 Charles Rosson of Market Head, Derby registered patent No. 15313 for an ejector mechanism. On 23 December 1890 he patented an adjustable fore-end attachment described in one report as a "fore-end loader" under patent No. 20930. What this was is not known. In 1892 he patented his famous "Eclipse" loading machine (No. 8813) with improvements (patent No. 3065) in 1894. In the 1891 census the family was recorded living at Mona Villa, Uttoxeter New Road, but whether this was the same place as 108 Uttoxeter Road or not is not known.
In the 1890s the firm had premises in Littleover (now a suburb of Derby) where they loaded cartridges. This may also have been a shooting ground. The firm dabbled in exporting guns, from about 1900 the firm had an agent in Denmark. In the years prior to 1905 Charles II appears to have decided that, as the elder son, Percy James Rosson (known as "Young Rosson" in the trade), would succeed him at the Derby business. Accordingly, in 1905 it appears that the name of the Derby firm changed to Rosson & Son, but there is a report that the firm's name only changed in 1912/13. If this is correct, the son could have been Percy, or Percy's son, of whom there is no record. At the same time, Charles II bought the business of H Wilson at 13 Rampant Horse Street, Norwich, Norfolk, and sent Charles III to run it. This business was formerly Wilson & Wilson, and prior to that E Wilson, and prior to that William Cartwright, and prior to that Isaac Walker. On 26 February 1913 P J and C S Rosson registered patent No. 4883 for heel plate and grip safety.
Other Info
The firm sold a model of shotgun named the "Universal" with a rib extension, and a double Express rifle named the "Automatic Cocking Gun". The firm loaded cartridges under their own name, they also loaded cartridges under the names "Grouse Ejector", "Eclipse" (deep shell red/brown in colour - post 1910 and 1918), "Roeditch" (named after an area of Derby), "Kuvert", "Monville" (post 1927 deep shell named after "Mona Villa" which was the name of the Rosson's residence in the 1890s) (early ones were light green and very rare, later blue ones are quite rare, and even later bright red ones appear to have been loaded with large shot sizes), and "Vipax" (economy load).
Great stuff Drew!!
Bill, I haven't been successful in posting pictures on this web forum. It's not as easy as on the PGCA forum.
If I can send them to someone so that they can post the pics I will be glad to.
Dean
From a post on this forum by PeteM in 2010 about William Ford.
In 1890 William Ford patented his Try-Gun, the first of its kind. By this time the firm had opened shooting grounds at Small Heath in Birmingham and at Clayton in Manchester, and advertised their proficiency in gun fitting.
Thanks Drew for all your research , and to everyone else , truly a fascinating subject (to me anyway) . Interestingly since the advent of the adjustable comb , people do not seem to bother with custom gunfitting now, they either use an adjustable comb (which is not perfect of course ) or they get a custom stock made , then sell the gun a few weeks later.
William Ford ad from 1894 listing his try-gun
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ax9DAAAAIAAJ&pg=PT6&lpg
1895
https://books.google.com/books?id=TvRBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT1&lpg1901 "Ford's Patent Firing Try Gun"
https://books.google.com/books?id=qtZFAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA4-PR103&lpg I think Pete's source was the IGC
It is not known when or where William Ford established his business. He came to prominence in 1875 and 1879 as a barrel maker when he won awards at the "Field" gun trials (he bored barrels for W W Greener in 1875 and Lincoln Jeffries in 1879).
There are reports that the firm occupied premises at 14 Whittall Street in about 1879, but this has not been confirmed.
Reportedly, it was in 1883 that William Ford introduced his "Eclipse" light weight shotgun (some say this was introduced in 1887 and this date may be correct). This gun weighed 4lbs and used 1oz of shot (some say it weighed 5lbs).
In 1884 the firm was recorded at 4a (or 4 1/2) Weaman Row, St Mary's, Birmingham. In 1885 they moved to the "Eclipse Works", 23 Loveday Street. In 1885 the firm widened their sphere of activities into the manufacture of barrelled actions.
In 1887 the firm was granted patent No. 8841 for a cocking and ejector mechanism, this was followed by two further patents for similar mechanisms in 1888 (Nos. 2622 and 9348). This was when they commenced trading as gunmakers, selling retail as well as to the trade.
In 1889 the firm moved to 15 St Mary's Row, which they also called the Eclipse Gun Works. In about 1900 a company named Birmingham Gun & Cycle Co occupied part of 15 St Mary's Row, this may have been formed by William Ford to use spare capacity in his gun manufacturing business, it appears to have been replaced in about 1920 by Birmingham Gun Co. From 1906, workshops at the back of 15 St Mary's Row were occupied by Charles Chambers who did work for William Ford, an association that was to last until after the Second World War.
In 1890 William Ford patented his Try-Gun,
the first of its kind.
(Were previous try guns non-firing? Greener mentioned "a dummy try gun" in
The Breechloader and How to Use It, 1893
https://books.google.com/books?id=LdE1AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA94&vq )
By this time the firm had opened shooting grounds at Small Heath in Birmingham and at Clayton in Manchester, and advertised their proficiency in gun fitting.
In 1898 the firm moved to 4 Price Street but they retained the 15 St Mary's Row premises. The Price Street premises appear to have been used up to 1948 amongst other things, for cartridge manufacture, they were retained until 1953.
In 1909 William Ford died and his son, A F Ford took over the business.
The firm sold cartridges under the names the "Pheasant", the "Eclipse", the "Fleet" and the "Ignition Tube".
From about 1885 the firm often used a trade-mark of a solar eclipse.
I can't find the W.P. Jones British Patent No.1157 on the internet. It would be helpful to establish if this was for a "dummy try gun" or "firing try gun".
Daryl's Mortimer and Kirkwood appears to be functional as was Lancaster's.
Eightbore - I sent the pictures of your Parker Curtiss try-gun to another member here. He should be posting them soon.
Thanks very much Old Doubles - Much appreciated!
Dean
Those pictures make my try gun look better than it does in person. Thank you so much. I will try to fix the crack in the checkered butt.
The whole thing sounds vaguely like a marketing exercise, very resembling modern "golf club fitting." There are very few out there who can mount a gun consistently (Stan being among the few). The rest of us have to deal with the day-to-day distractions.
The Beesley-invented try gun is at George Gibbs Ltd. I believe Mr. Crudgington uses it to this day, although not so much lately due to the CCP virus.
I just read this thread this morning. I guess I missed it due to being hospitalized and in rehab during the time it ran. The last couple posts brought it back to the top, fortunately, and I thoroughly enjoyed it over my first cup of java. Thanks to all who posted pics and information. Your Parker try gun is in great condition, Bill.
Gene, having been fitted once with the use of a try gun I cannot say that gun fittings are a marketing ploy. I think they have usefulness, and the try gun speeds up the process immeasurably. As I have mentioned in a previous thread my first fitting was done by myself, with tape, cardboard and an adjustable buttplate. The resulting dimensions were almost exactly the same as the results from the try gun fitting. So, it can be done by someone's self if willing to shoot at a grease plate enough to make the proper adjustments. That said, it is very easy to spend an hour with a good gunfitter and get the exact measurements you need. I completely agree that the consistent, proper gun mount is the key. If you don't develop that before going for the fitting it will be largely a waste of time and money, IMO, and in the opinion of the gun fitter I used.
BTW, as I recall, the try gun he used was an O/U. He told me that the measurements for it would be minutely different, in a couple places, than those for a S X S. I probably have the card he gave me with the dimensions that he wrote on it, and I can't remember if he wrote what would be changed for a S X S, or not.
SRH
I personally own a Churchill try gun and it is a fully operational gun. Some try guns are not able to shoot.
John Boyd
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hbmNqck.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/s2Bq3Tl.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/a1F20uR.jpg)