Ok,looking for a sxs for pheasant where non tox is required. A mid 60's webley and scott. Looks to be all original. The second, heaven forbid, is sleeved, resocked, proofed for 1 1/4. And cheaper. This gun will be nothing special ,just something for the 2 3/4 and 1 1/4 oz

If you want to spend less on a reliable pheasant gun, 2 3/4" for 1 1/4 oz loads, check out the Ithaca SKB's. (Or Browning BSS, if you're OK with a heavier gun.) Both cheaper than a Webley & Scott, and dead reliable. The ones with more open chokes, like IC/M, will also work fine with steel shot.

The well kept secret is that "sleevers" work just fine if you like the balance and do not detract from value as much as some would have you think...Geo

Or maybe I'm just one of the suckers who will waste my money buying them!

There are many options. I use 1.25 oz Bi loads for the most part in a Merkel and a Greener. 1.125 loads in a Cashmore. Not sure what I will use in the new Darne, but probably 1.25 oz again.

Larry's suggestion about the SKB is a good one. They aren't fancy but they are dead nuts reliable and handle and carry well.

I have no problem with sleeved guns

Whether its a bss, skb, dickinson, they're all too heavy

If those are too heavy there is that Manufrance that I posted in the Francisque Darne threade that is 5# 10 oz or thereabouts. That should suffice for lightnesss. Or a nice Darne like I just bought that is 6# even. My Merkel is 6.5# on the nose. What meets your needs?

Beretta made some nice sxs's from the 50-60's I don't know what prices they bring in the States but here in Australia $750-$1000 gets a nice gun

I have a pair of 16 gauge SLE’s that have been sleeved and balance properly. A sleeved gun as a shooter can be brought at a discount compared to original barrels

That said in 12 gauge there are plenty of non-sleeved examples to find a decent Webley Scott or a Webley Scott action with someone else’s name on it.

As others have stated there are some good Beretta SXS out there

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/beretta-shotguns-sxs.c819_p1_o3.cfm

Note lastly the 12ga SXS is a buyers market more than any other gauge

Don't buy a BSS. I've shot one for many years with heavy steel duck loads, and it has never failed me in any way, but it probably will. They only made so many of them in 30" barrel length, and if and when I shoot this one to pieces I may want another......... sorry as they are.

SRH

If you throw it up to your shoulder and it fits you nicely then get it and shoot the heck out of it.

I bought a 1953 JP Sauer 12ga, ejector gun from Simpson LTD about 6 years ago for $315.

Only pics I have are from before the ultrasonic bath. Like a lot of Simpson's guns, it wasn't used much but the finish is worn. Just have to sort through them. Some Communist Merkels on there now for $5-700.

https://simpsonltd.com/shotguns/

Someone got an interesting hammer gun....

https://simpsonltd.com/maleham-double-barrel-c46769/

I'd be very surprised if you were to find much weight difference between an Ithaca SKB Model 100 12ga--the version with a splinter forend and extractors--than a Webley & Scott 700 12ga. Maybe 2-4 ounces? Assuming the same barrel length. The BSS doubles are a good bit heavier, even the straight grip Sporters with smaller forends.

Those all are too heavy? For a steady first of 1 1/4 Oz? Huh. A 12 bore SKB 100 too heavy? I don’t have a whole lot of experience with Dickinsons, but none of them seemed all that heavy in game gun configuration. A BSS would seem just about right to soak up some of that recoil. 1 1/4 in a light game gun isn’t very comfortable and I’m not recoil sensitive in the least. A gun that is fed a diet of heavy loads like that should be a few ticks over 7 lbs.....I wouldn’t mind it coming in a 8 lbs myself.

What's a steady diet of loads when pheasant hunting? Not much. I mostly prefer my pheasant guns to be 7 and under and well under at times. But an SKB would be a fine choice. The Dickinsons I've handled didn't seem all that great, but I never shot one. In any event, it would be nice if the OP would add a few more parameters like weight and barrel length and whatever else is important to him (triggers and safety?).

The title of the thread clearly states Pheasant/Duck. I don’t know where you pheasant hunt, but you can get into a hot corner and indeed pop a few caps. What about guys who hunt in groups and have blockers? That can get pretty hot as well. I won’t even go into duck hunting. Just because you barely shoot any pheasants, don’t think others don’t.
I don’t think you know much about anything double gun related anyways BrentD, so you knowing how a game gun should handle is pretty suspect.

The limit on pheasants is 3. How many caps are you going to pop in your "hot corner"? ⁹

I'll wager I hunt pheasants and kill more wild pheasants than the vast majority here, likely including you. I've been doing it exclusively with doubles for over 25 yrs, so I have a pretty good and pragmatic grip on what hunting them with doubles is all about.

28” barrels. Like to keep it around 6 and a half. I’ve looked at webley s from 6 2oz.up to 6 10. None of that gang hunting for me . Aren’t skb and Dickinson the same? I have considered Dickinson s. A Dickinson 12 is around 7 Lbs. and I’d have to order one ive heard bad things about their delivery dates. Seems like once they got your money your not a priority and with the crap going on now who knows how long it would be
I

SKB and Dickinson are not the same.

For under $1k you can find a Merkel Model 8 that will make 6.5# with 28" barrels. LeFusil will hate you for it, especially if you regularly post pictures of it like the one below. They are spectacularly reliable hunting guns and will handle 1.25 oz loads forever. They will also handle steel (#4s or smaller with the proper chokes) as well as.

Here is one that has well over 2 decades of hard use on it.

When you shoot as a blocker....you can shoot more than 3 birds...you’re shooting for the group, I’ve done it many times...it’s not my preferred method of hunting pheasants, but for some here, that’s exactly how it’s done. Having lived most of my adult life in the Midwest (Kansas, Iowa, & Nebraska), and having a job where I only work nine days a month....and having a brace of highly trained dogs.....I think you’re being a bit presumptuous in thinking that you might have an edge on me in regards to hunting pheasants, yearly bag numbers or even days spent afield. Waterfowling? I won’t even get into that. It’s not even close. I also travel to 3 different states to hunt birds as well. In any one season....I usually have taken 6 different species of Wild upland birds. People on here who know me....will attest to all of this.
I’d say the only thing you have a pragmatic grip on is bumping your gums and acting like you’re informed. Better luck next time.

No. Lefusil will not hate you for hunting or using a Merkel or any other German gun. What dingaling supreme doesn’t know is that I’ve owned & used many German guns throughout the years. Simsons. Merkels. Greifelt. Sauers. Etc.
There are very few German guns that are aesthetically pleasing to me...Merkels are at the top of the list. I never said they were bad guns, they are extremely well put together like most German things are.
Nice try Brent.

There are 2 distinct types of SKB being discussed here. They depend on how old you are. Old guys think of the Japanese made SKB's and people who haven't been around as long think of the Turkish made guns. 2 very different designs with the same name. I haven't shot the "new" SKB's, but I am very familiar with the Japanese guns. The older guns fill quite the same niche as the WS 700.

I don't know if anyone can say anything with certainty these days but I'm confident that the "old" SKBs are best buys for the money, owning 12 and 20.

You apparently don't remember badmouthing my Merkel for being German. But of course, it was just me you were badmouthing, as you are here. People that shoot other's birds are not the sorts of folks I like to hunt with. But it is not surprising you would make a habit of it. Sadly.

In any event, I think this Merkel, among others are fine hunting guns and I think I figured that out without any help from you. But go ahead. Sling some more mud. It's a crappy day out and we might was well melt down the forum a little more.

Be nice

I'm tired of being nice with The Fuse. He wanted to go there unnecessarily. I'm happy to oblige.

Haha. STFU Brent. You didn’t go nowhere, per usual. You got put in your place, per usual. You opened your stupid mouth and then got slammed...and per usual you play victim. You always try to get the last word, that’s your m.o. That’s fine, take the last word. Every single person here knows that you are the boards biggest fugazi. Cats been out of that bag with you for awhile now.
Keep on yacking...it’s what you do.