Not getting much help on the "analyzing UK Patent Use #'s line so let me put this post into a separate line.

To reiterate in this virus shut down period - with everyone bored - I am trying to find a 19th century UK patent holder who chronologically numbered his patent uses for royalty payments, which might help date certain hitherto undateable guns. Scott patents seem to be out apparently, since they sold whole blocks of patent use numbers to gun makers.

But the Henry rifling patent of Dec 1860 as sold on Adams & Tait made barrels usually marked "Henry's Patent A&T XXXX" (XXXX=use number) looks to be one possibility. Here's an example from Reilly SxS SN 18794 (dated mid-1874 by my chart)



Repost:
Need help from Alexander Henry experts:

Here's another Henry Rifling Adams & Tait Patent use number/date graph, concentrating on known guns with established dates of delivery. (It Assumes that A&T began to make Henry rifling patent barrels in Birmingham in 1862 as reported on the internet - and not taking into account the lead time to select a couple of barrel blanks from the A&T stock, buy them, serial number them, then mate them, file them, etc).

Data from extant guns with the Henry Rifling A&T use number:
. . .3,. . . 4** - A Samul & C,Smith muzzle loader with the crest of a fellow who died in 1868, converted to center break gun by G.E. Lewis of Birmingham (date not stated but one of the first A&T guns 1862? )
. .33 - SN 459 Alexr Henry .451 single barrel rifle M-L c1860. Not A&T
. .80 - SN 494 Alexr Henry .451 single barrel rifle M-L c1860 Not A&T
. 349 - SN 783, Alexr Henry .451 single barrel rifle M-L Not A&T
. 350 - SN 985, Alexr Henry .451 single barrel rifle M-L Not A&T

. 399, .400 - SN 18797 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street London & rue Scribe, Paris. .500 BPE, U-L, hammer gun dated mid 1874
. 448, .449 - SN 18856 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street London & Rue Scribe. Paris. Sxs .500 BPE. U-L, hammer gun. dated 1874
. 555, .556 - Durs Egg .500/.450 BPE dated per rib address between 1869-80 (probably 1874)

. 601 - SN 1075, Alexr Henry .451 single barrel rifle M-L Not A&T
. 611 - Alexr Henry long range match rifle M-L, single barrel .451 1866
1355, 1356** - SN 3210 - Alexr Henry double rifle made for Queen Victoria, completed Dec 1873 - presented to her bodyguard John Brown.
1454 - SN 2134 - Alexr Henry single .450 BPE. U-L 1869
1844, 1845 - SN 3585 - Alexr Henry double rifle made for Prince of Wales, 1874-5
2459, 2460 - Alexr Henry ,450 BPE SxS Rifle given by Prince of Wales in India. Completed on 7 Sep 1875
3369, 3370 - Alexr Henry .500x3” BPE SxS Rifle.
3524, 3525 - SN 21361 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Rue Scribe, Paris. .450BPE. Rifle SxS. U-L, hammer gun. mid-1878
3756 - T.Bland cape gun. 12 ga/.577. delivered 19 Aug 1884
4606 - Alexr Henry .450 single barrel U-L rifle. completed on the 7th July 1879
5046, 5047 - SN 6122 - Alexr Henry, Rifle SxS, BPE 20/.577. Completed Jan 1888.
5304, 5305 - SN? - Alexr Henry, Rifle SxS. BPE dated 1888.
5695, 5696 - SN 6408 Alexr Henry .450 BPE SxS rifle. Prince or Wales gift to W.Winans. 1888



Note that the 3 Reilly gun use numbers fall significantly outside the curve... But their dates of manufacture are very solid and those three guns indeed had those patent use numbers - photos don't lie.

Original Questions from above:
-- Do patent records for Henry still exist? Who might have them?
-- What is the difference between a straight forward Henry rifling patent use # and a Henry rifling A&T use # - if any?
-- How did Henry extend his patent for another 14 years in 1874?
-- Did the use #'s start anew in 1874?

More questions (Donald Dallas wrote a great book about Alexander Henry; surely someplace there is info on Henry's relationship with Adams and Tait and their use of his patent on their barrels.)

1. Were the barrels stamped with the Henry Patent use # when finished individually, or when they were paired with a gun?
2. Who stamped the barrels with the patent use number and when? A&T or the gun maker?
3. When are barrels for a gun delivered to the gun maker? If a gun has a "delivery date" recorded for giving the gun to a customer....how much earlier than this date would the barrels have been stamped with the patent use number or delivered to the gunmaker?
4. Could a gunmaker order 50 individual tubes from A&T and join them together later as necessary in house? i.e. could a gunmaker stockpile the use numbered barrel blanks for several years?
5. If a gun maker...Alexander Henry say...ordered barrels from A&T would A&T make the barrels to certain Henry specifications, or would Henry make the action to fit the barrels and lumps on the barrels once they were in hand?

Oh and by the way, "what is a Henry Patent A&T use #" anyway? Is it a Hentry Patent on an A&T barrel? Did Henry use other barrel makers and is his patent stamped on their barrels?

Talking to David Trevallion today answered some of the questions. The barrels originally would have been tubes with roughed-in flats and lumps. The barrel maker will choose two tubes. At that point the pat use number will be stamped on them. The barrel maker then shapes them, joins them, the filer then goes to work on the lumps. So the Pat use number could well be stamped on the barrels six months before the gun is completed. The gun serial number, however is assigned when the gun is ordered which could be 3 years before the gun is delivered.

Argo:


I sure hope you migrate over to Belgian - English patent adaptations / APUNS at some point......


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Serialized tubeset can indeed be several years. And if the offering is an upper rung one with heavy adornment, it could be many years till delivery.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The thing about the Reilly's is that the firm prided itself - indeed it was part of its marketing model - on delivering bespoke guns in 2-3 months vice 2-3 years. I always speculated that to do this, they stockpiled barrels and actions, which would require a storage capacity and a commitment of financial resources. So, perhaps the two A&T barrel sets from 1874 were actually bought by Reilly circa 1866. But I can't explain the 1878 gun with a patent use number that should be numbered in 1882 per the graph.

That's a pretty tall order & few concerns could do that; even Sauer & Sohn, who pretty much performed everything in house less rough tubes.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

If others have Hentry Patent A&T barrels on their guns, would appreciate your posting the use numbers and any info on the date of your gun. This is just for fun in these dark times...but something might come out of it. I don't think Alexander Henry records will retain information on use numbers and payment of royalties, but I'll write to the holder of the records anyway and try to contact Donald Dallas who might know more.

Rifled pattern welded tubes are pretty rare, and Henry rifled pattern are probably even more rare. I just remembered I have a R. Rhoda 12 bore set stuck back somewhere.

I do not think a maker could order single tubes. Léopold Bernard set the bar high & I believe everyone else followed suite or imitated his protocol of selling a tubeset.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, There's a dated cape gun in the examples above, with one rifled barrel. It doesn't seem logical that a barrel tube maker would refuse to sell a tube for a single barrel gun. Gene

I think R. Rhoda was a British firm based in India which marketed English guns. I've heard they also made some guns in India. Don't know much more.

True Gene, but would he prefer to attach the rifled(cast steel or pattern welded) himself or source it from someone who does it every day, day in & day out?


Cheer,

Raimey
rse

Cape tubeset could be an exception, but for the moment I just don't think so. Have you an spare Malaria meds on hand?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I've got about 120 days of anti-malaria pills saved up from recent trips to Africa. Unfortunately it's Doxycycline. According to my doctor Daughter-in-law, Doxy is not the same thing as Chloroquine and operates in a different way. chloroquine was the weekly pill we called in Vietnam "the Monday night bad dreams" pill.

Not too many cases in N.Va...the government is locked down. DC is totally locked down. Va has most restaurants in NoVa closed. But gun shops are open.

The whole way a tube/barrel makers operated in cooperation with the gun maker is still confusing. David Trevallion suggest reading the books written by David Baker and Ian Crudgington to further educate myself. (I've got enough books from a dozen different subjects; I won't be chasing this hobby as hard - and prefer some knowledgeable and articulate poster here to educate me....short words please.).

You got that right. My wife took that for 2 years with the same effect. That stuff is mean. That is why Dr. Presscott pushed me over to Primaquine - Baird.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

You seem to give these hobbies a pretty good go. There can be a whole lot worse suggested reading, and also throw in a copy of Shotgun Technicana.

Alexander Henry .450 single barrel breech-loader rifle. completed on the 7th July 1879. Henry Patent A&T use #4606.... This use # is also way outside of the graphed curve. Frustrating. A&T though did build single barrels as postulated.
https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=A0320++++746+&refno=++147808

So were the A&T single tubes attached to a scattergun tube?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

ALEXR. HENRY
A .450 (3 1/4IN.) BLACK POWDER EXPRESS SINGLE-BARRELLED ROTARY-UNDERLEVER HAMMER RIFLE, serial no. 4645,
28in. bold damascus octagonal barrel with partially file cut top flat and engraved 'ALEXR. HENRY . EDINBURGH AND LONDON', open sights with two folding leaf sights, marked 200 and 300 yards (one leaf slightly bent), ramped bead fore-sight, Henry patent rifling, patent no. 2802 of 15th November 1860, Adams & Tait use number 4606, Jones patent rotary-underlever, carved percussion fence, non-rebounding back-action lock with bolted hammer, border engraving, retaining very slight traces of original colour-hardening, 14 1/4in. well-figured pistolgrip stock (light repairs either side of top tang), with pistolgrip-cap and including 5/8in. wooden extension, fore-end with carved finial, insert repairs to edges and light damage to crosspin catch, weight 7lb. 1oz.

Provenance: The makers records list the rifle as being completed as a .450 single barrelled breech loading rifle on the 7th July 1879 for 1879 for Frederick Snowden Corrance, b1820. Resided at Broadwater, Framlingham.

Raimey...you are always 1) knowledgeable and 2) curious. Great combination

Well, the thesis was that the A&T built rifle barrels using the Henry Patent rifling had chronological patent use numbers from about 1862 (or earlier...not clear) up to 1888. Several internet posters claimed this was true - I don't think anyone of them ever tested it out. Gun "truisms" seem to take on a life of their own.

It looked like a graph using 5 or six data points was reasonably consistent. Additional look at very early use numbers 3 -700 on Alexr Henry single barrel .451 M-L rifles show some semblance of order (probably 1860-65). But there are 4 guns with A&T use #'s radically outside the curve. And there are use numbers which are higher on a 1869 gun than on an 1873 gun. This variance is difficult to deconflict or reconcile. (Toby as always warned me of this).

So, I guess we'll have to consign this theory to the ash heap of history. I'll continue looking at the Henry Patent use #'s on A&T barrels just for the heck of it hoping to make some sense of the chronology. There are a lot of them out there but sellers don't seem to want to post the use #'s - or they may not recognize them as such (in a lot of cases we are talking about the firearms sellers equivalent of carpet merchants and camel dealers). Maybe at the least, it'll convince sellers that there is interest in what's on their guns and encourage them to publish the info.

For curiosity, still wondering about how Henry got his patent extended for 14 years in 1874...a couple of years ago when I was looking at Reilly Martini Henry's I vaguely recall something about a deal the arsenal made with Henry on the Martini-Henry.. Curiosity is a dangerous thing but for the moment, ensconced in the house, cleaning a muzzle loader for the 20th time, I just need another vodka.

I was contacted by a member of this forum with a Durs Egg .500/.450 double rifle that he had traditionally dated between 1869 and 1880 because of the Egg address on the rib. It has "Henry Patent A&T 555 and 556 on the barrels. I should think tthe barrels on the Egg were stamped with their patent use numbers very close to the two 1874 Reilly's above, their use numbers being within 150 of each other. So something comes out of this - i.e. the Egg BPE was probably delivered 1874-75.
-- 1) Egg would serial number his guns when ordered
-- 2) The barrels would be selected and presumably serial numbered when picked up? Did A&T mate them and file them? or did Egg?
-- 3) the barrels would sit in the Egg shop and the action be built around them?
-- 4) Egg could have completed the gun anywhere from 1874-75?
So the gun would have been ordered in circa 1874...the barrels selected and serial numbered shortly thereafter (had to be 1874 - see below re Reilly)?
(Reilly prided himself on building and delivering a gun in 3 months...a little easier to figure out).

It also makes me think that these three low Patent use numbers in 400-550 range, were not a mistake. I'm wondering if there were two Henry Patent use number chronologies, one starting in 1860 and continuing on to 1878 or so. And a second starting when the Patent was renewed 1873-74 time frame. Donald Dallas might know.