Article on Shooting Times web site may interest some: https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/how-have-other-countries-coped-with-the-lead-shot-ban-111374 Other interesting stuff on this site about 16 bores too. Lagopus…..

It almost seems like the next book is going to be about classic steel ready autoloaders. I wonder why he chose to lobby for his knee-cap instead of coming up with some solutions for those who would like to continue using classic side by sides. I can understand the constraints of available space, but do quotes from anonymous hunters have any more weight than internet postings?

It might be somewhat of a service to expand a bit about the nameless and faceless, field sport collectives, committees, agencies and acknowledged politicians who're so effective at closing loopholes, setting the narrative, and getting everyone to fall in line.

I have Kent TM loads that I bought in the mid 2000's for about $1.80 Cdn. per shell. It costs me now over $6.00 Cdn per Kent TM shell. I suspect Americans have seen a similar, although somewhat moderated due to currency fluctuations, price rise

I'm not seeing any "rapidly dropping prices" for Tungsten and Bismuth. That kind of blatant error makes the rest of the "points" in his article suspect.

I'm also curious as to know how a voluntary ban is any different from a legal one when the result is the same. Especially when the voluntary ban comes about ONLY as a method of avoiding the legal ban. Talk about splitting hairs!

I wonder if he's a signer of the 'statement in support of lead and plastic wad removal'? There are probably chin up and smilie face solidarity clauses in it.

So is the total ban pf lead shot going to cause a fatal drop in double gun prices? Many fine doubles could be used with very expensive Bismuth shot but history in other countries show a sudden decline in shooters when a lead ban goes into effect. The common box lock doubles seem to have very weak demand already and I can’t help but wonder if the mid price range side locks won’t suffer as well. Like the decline in antique prices in the US. I’ve seen China worth 3-4K 10-15 years ago drop in value to less than 1k if you can even get a buyer. Are doubles next and how soon?

Mr. Potter laughs...and spreads his wings.


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Might be able to finally afford that DMB.

It appears that the author of the article is recommending that shooter just behave like good little sheep, and line up for the shearing.

It has been noted that the article predicts drops in prices for the inferior non-lead shotshells, which has not happened, and is unlikely to happen. We just don't see prices of things falling when demand goes up. I don't know why anyone with a brain would think it will be any different with expensive non-lead shotshells.

Unfortunately, the demand in this case is being forced down the throats of shooters who do not want the product, but will soon have no choice. Read the very last paragraph. So much for being voluntary.

As you read the article, a few things jump out. When New Zealand hunters had the choice, they chose 16 and 20 gauge guns with lead shot over the 12 gauge guns that were mandated to use inferior steel shot. That little loophole was soon slammed shut. The anti-lead folks certainly couldn't allow actual proof of their false data to remain in the fields.

We also still have the comments from anti-lead folk about how great steel shot kills. Yet those New Zealand hunters found that lead is better at longer ranges, and the shooter in Belgium found that he had to restrict his shots to around 25 yards to ensure clean kills. German shooters also experienced reduced range and more cripples. Dogs became more of a necessity to recover game which flew a long way after being hit.

So how is this possible when we are told that steel kills just as good or better than lead?

The most hopeful part was about hunters in Norway. They apparently fought back, and part of their 2005 blanket lead shot ban was reversed, so now only waterfowl shooters are stuck with it, and their older vintage guns are still useful for now.

The most effective way to lose to the anti-lead ammunition freaks is to be a sheep, and be afraid to fight back. So join the NRA, remain involved, tell your legislators that you will not support them if they support lead ammo bans, and... don't be a sheep.

Does this ban include clay shooting as well?

The article says it’s for hunting game, but it also says something about historical momentum and political disenfranchising for those who don’t have any sense.

Several countries have banned lead shot entirely it seems. One makes the sale of it entirely illegal. Once one EU nation does it others are very likely to do the same. Worse is if the EU decides it for them all then it’ a done deal. Lead shot is a back door gun ownership ending tool that the anti gun people are exploiting.

I remember when we first went to steel shot here in the late 1970’s or early 1980. There was a major increase in browning 3” 20 sales. Buddy owned a gun shop and ordered 20 of them a year before the change. Back then you had to order your A5’s well in advance for the upcoming season. He got them in and had them all sold within a week. He got a premium price for them and had laid in what he thought was a years supply of 3” lead shot ammo. Half my friends were shooting those A5’s that year. And they were much better than those early steel ammo was in killing ducks.

Given that the EPA has been expressly denied the authority to regulate lead in ammunition, a nationwide lead shot ban in the US is unlikely. A new president, however, could change that . . . although my bet would be that even a Democrat in the WH would choose to focus on guns and not a particular type of ammunition.

Why limit themselves when they could have both, and more? Aren’t various states showing us what’s possible with a multi pronged approach?

Craig, are we seeing across the board lead shot/bullet bans anywhere in this country other than CA??? More states have Republican governors and/or legislatures than Dem, which is good news for what can happen at the state level. (Although not good news if you live in the wrong place.)

[quote=keith]
So how is this possible when we are told that steel kills just as good or better than lead?

I question the "science" relied on to support the no-lead movement, especially as it applies to upland game. Simply BS to think that the miniscule amount of lead shot dropping in upland fields and forests is statistically significant in terms of reduced bird populations or the public health. Heavy use waterfowl areas may be different--I don't know.

Regardless, when the steel shot waterfowl rule was mandated by the feds back in the early 90's, I quit hunting ducks altogether, and bought a 10 gauge 10 lb. Eibar double with 32 inch F/F barrels to hunt geese. I had the chokes reamed out a little bit at a time, many weeks back and forth to the pattern board and gunsmith, until finally the gun patterned 60% R and 70% L in perfectly round patterns with Federal 3 1/2 " 1 5/8 oz steel BB's. That gun was deadly on geese at up to 60 yards, and I was able to hit well at that distance because the barrels were so heavy I could not stop my swing. Patterns ran about 10% tighter with BBB's, but I never felt the need to use them. Still have 2 unopened boxes.

Point being, steel BB's had all the energy, penetration and killing power I needed to take 10 lb. Greater Canada's consistently. Prior to the rule, I used 1 7/8 oz of lead 2's in an early fixed choke 12 gauge 3" Win 23 with good result. I have no idea how the smaller steel shot works on ducks, and will probably never find out. FWIW.

Here in Norway we had the ban for some years. For hunting, it was reversed to the old rules after protest from both the hunters and the forest industry. Just one steel shot in the timber can make big problems for a saw mill. The price for any alternative to lead except from steel, did never fall. Today, it is not legal to shoot shotguns with lead on shooting ranges, or in wetlands. There's an exception for some black powder shooting on ranges, but I'm not entirely sure how that rule works. The ban was only for shot guns, rifles are not included in any ban. The Norwegian army changed from lead bullets to a lead free alternative. When this happend, many soldiers reported about not feeling well, getting head ache and similar symptoms after shooting. I belive they have altered the metal in the bullets, and that there has been an improvement for this.

Skrotnissen, nice to see some good Norwegian common sense. I was going to come up to Norway this June but have had to cancel. Beautiful country you have.

Currently the law bans lead shot in England and Wales for shooting ducks and geese. In Scotland it is slightly different in that it is banned for all species over wetlands. Some other minor rules but that is the basic situation. When the ban came in in England I bought some boxes of cartridges in Steel. Bismuth, Tungsten Matrix and Tin. Experience with steel is that it wounded more than it killed although I believe there have been great improvements since. Bismuth was o.k. provided the range was brought nearer. Tungsten worked fine but the price went up due to shortages in the Gulf War where it was needed for armour piercing tank shells. The Tin was not much use but as it was cheap it was handy to have a few rounds to finish off any ducks on the water not initially killed with the Bismuth. I don't really do much duck and goose shooting as a result and I think that seems to be similar among a lot of shooters. I recently; dare I say on this site, purchased a Winchester SX4 semi auto so as to be able to use 3 1/2" steel ammo and have another go at geese. I've not shot geese for many years except in Scotland where I could still use lead flighting over fields.

I was talking with a Farmer just yesterday who wanted geese shot on his land due to the amount of grass they eat and spoil. Sadly they are out of season although Canada geese can still be shot out of season if they are doing serious damage. Geese here have multiplied enormously. Next season I have some 3 1/2" BB shot cartridges and I'll give them a try. Heavy loads in Bismuth and Tungsten cost a fortune although I did manage to find some 3" BB Bismuth at a price worth trying.

The French in World War I used copper bullets in their 8mm. Lebel rifles. Lagopus…..