OT: professional gunmakers - The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com

I want to say I appreciate Dave's making this new space available and, especially, the posts we've seen. To be able to see first class work is not possible for most of us unless we have access to this kind of forum. We can't do this kind of work ourselves or afford to have it done. And, we don't have to put up with the deranged rants of our psycho-in-chief. Thanks to all who make this happen.

Seeing Mr Vicknair back posting is great.

Well clearly Bill, you must like the deranged rants. Because while I agree with your original sentiment.....it is nice to see people Like Mr Vicknair posting their work.... what the hell is the point of poking the bear, except to get him to respond to you? Good god man.

It would be nice to see more of those "in the trade" posting there. I hope it will grow but many may not know that it is there. Perhaps we need to help get the word out.

Thanks bill, maybe it�ll work this time.

CB, I'm as fed up with them as anyone. You're probably right about provocation. I won't give into it any more.

I really appreciate Dave making that forum available, and the fact that posting there is limited to those he considers professionals. Excellent idea. It has already encouraged professionals, from whom we had lost great input, to come back on the site posting, and likely others will too. It's a win/win deal, and a great first step, IMO.

Home run, Dave!

SRH

That forum is going to be so good, I just wish I could post there to say how amazing the work is, but that's the beauty of the Can't Ruin The Thread clause.
My hat is off to you lads,
cheers
Franc

A very welcomed forum, making for some great reading as well as learning!
Karl

The deranged Libtard rocky mtn bill was directly responsible for the abrupt departure of the excellent gunsmith Bailey Bradshaw. Just go back and see what Billy posted immediately prior to Bailey leaving us.

Billy is a hypocritical little clown who can't stand the fact that he is revealed to be ignorant enough to blindly support anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats. He is a very bitter little man who is deeply distressed that Donald Trump was neither indicted by the Mueller Witch Hunt or Impeached by the Adam Schiff circus.

Hopefully, the Re-election of our pro-2nd Amendment President Donald Trump will be enough to finish him off or put him in an Institution, where he belongs.

I too am very happy to see the return of Dewey Vicknair. His work is truly amazing and inspirational to anyone who does gun work. I especially enjoyed the comments Dewey made about gunsmiths who take credit, but farm out much of their work without attribution. I think the bar has been raised to a level that will be unattainable by someone who was initially very happy to see this new forum. Free advertising might not be quite so effective when customers can clearly see the difference between mediocre and excellence bordering on perfection. I'm reminded of the old Chinese proverb.... "Be careful what you wish for, because you just may get it."

Glad to see Dewey posting. This very conversation is taking place over on AR. I thought I would place a quote here from what many consider to be the finest rifle builder in America today, DArcy Echols. He has some high praise for Dewey but then goes on to mention why he chooses to collaborate on his builds. Smart guy. Incidentally,
not only do I have other specialist do work for me, I also do work for other gunsmiths, some of whom you may know.

These are the words of DArcy Echols

"I think we're getting a bit deep in the weeds and need to lighten up a little.

There's a good chance we all have knelt down on bended knee to pay homage to an original Rigby Rifle made for Big Game and muttered "man did they know how to build them back then" ? I know I have and still do on occasion all the while overlooking the fact that the barreled actions were shipped to Briton after being conceived at the Oberndorf plant. How many Rigby's have you seen the barrel engraved with "Stocked and assembled in England By Rigby with all metalwork produced in Germany" Not to many I'd wager. Hmmm !

Speaking for myself I am at best a stock maker that had to get into metal work out of sheer desperation if he wanted to remain in business. I have stocked more than a few Tom Burgess barreled actions, a number of Jasper Rabourn's jewels and have always had their names proudly engraved next to my name as a co-contributor and participant.

Sadly I can not weld anything, zero, nada , zip nor could Tom Burgess in my opinion so I have other professionals such as Steve Heilmann do that for me as he is a fantastic micro welder and for me this represents money well spent towards the final project.

Greg Tannel, Mark Penrod and Gene Simillion have all re-cut action threads for me for quite some time. Mark has made a number of specialized parts and quarter rib blanks for me that I then fit to each barrel when required. All their work is top notch and again well worth the money and effort required for the clients desired end results.

Bluing, I have done more than my fare share of rust bluing and still do when required. But due to municipal restrictions I can not set up caustic tanks or I would have done it in a heartbeat years ago. So I sub out that work to Glenrock Blue, I do all the polish work and they handle the caustic bluing procedure in a most professional way. Once again money well spent.

Fiberglass stocks, I've made 3 patterns as I didn't like those that were available and then had McMillan make me three molds. Somebody had to make those patterns, I'll leave the lay-up and machining to McMillan as I don't need to, I have better ways to use what little talent I have.

Painting fiberglass stocks, I've been there and done it but have gotten better results from those that do this everyday. Again thinking of the end results
Jeff you're outstanding !!!!!!!!!

Parts ? Remember "sheer desperation" Like many I have had to rely heavily on parts of my own design. In the mid 80's I was very fortunate to have worked with Schneidmiller Industries to accomplish many of these pioneering goals. I use to have to make the original working prototypes but now have come to rely on a competent engineer and Solid-Works to design what I have envisioned. Then these parts are made within the same incredible machine shop, Central Vally Machine. Without their expertise I'd be even more Glacial in production, compromising the end game with half baked parts and very likely burnt out by now.

I myself have cut a forest and a half of stock blanks for other makers as a sub-contractor and never felt slighted in the least for a lack of a mention. Come on really ?

I can think of very few actual 100% capable Gun or Rifle Makers. Joe Smithson, Dewey Vicknair, Stuart Slaterlee, Stephen Alexander, Martin Hagn and Max Ern come to mind as to those craftsmen that can build a "gun" from a solid block of steel and then wrap a beautifully made stock around it and do the complete task better than most. These guys are rare, forgive me if I've forgotten to include you in this short list.

Speaking again for myself only, I can't, nor do I want to make every single part or preform every single operation on every given project. I sugguest you do what you do best and get done what you require from the best.

Skilled sub-contractors can only benefit you, its finding them at times that's hard.

Regardless of those involved I am still ultimately in charge of the final project so my name goes on the barrel, at least the owner will know who to call when the floor plate or recoil pad falls off.

In the case of companies like Empire unfortunately the CEO didn't know sheep shit from cotton seed about as to what was required to actually build a quality firearm. Now that is a skill set that very few have yet to master.

I raise my frosted G&T glass to those un-sung heroes who's name never showed up on the barrel."

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7971019521/m/1791017752

Sub contractors as you call them have been the norm for over a hundred years in Great Britain. If it has worked well for them I see no reason not to take advantage of the same here. The investment in tooling, education and time needed to master any task almost make it impossible for any person to do it all to a high level. Yes you named a half dozen who can but what you did not say that there are thousands of others that are average at best and too many are dreadful in truth.

Duane Wiebe is certainly no slouch as a Custom Rifle builder either. I liked what he had to say in his posts in that same Accurate Reloading forum link where D'Arcy Echols cited all of his reasons for farming out a lot of his work.

When either of those guys, or Rigby built a rifle on a Mauser barreled action, everyone knows up-front that the barreled action was a product of the Mauser factory in Germany. That's hardly the same as farming out work because a subcontracting gunsmith is too busy spending many hours on Doublegunshop forum bashing Donald Trump or posting crap data from the known anti-gunner Philip Alpers and GunPolicy.org

Another thing I noted from that AccurateReloading forum link was that Duane Wiebe has nothing but his website and contact information in his tagline, and D'Arcy Echols has nothing at all... no free advertising of any kind. And neither of them is hawking books or doing free advertising of overpriced gunsmithing seminars without duly compensating that forum's administrator.

I hope this comment doesn't elevate rocky mtn bill's blood pressure by much more than 200 points diastolic.

Keith, nothing you say elevates my blood pressure; it only elevates my disdain for your endless stupidity. You'd argue with a fence post. Refusing to treat your condition can only aggravate it. Why don't you re-read all your posts here and ask yourself why you feel a compulsion to screw up a perfectly useful website? As an aside, making a living as a one-man gun shop is an continual uphill struggle.That guys who do this work anyway and who might, just might, wring a bit more income from contacts made here, ought to be reason for celebration. They're the ones on the front line of what most of us only enjoy as a hobby. Get off their backs. Go find a real wrong to right. Or, better yet, get lost and give all the rest of us a break.

I'm glad you mentioned continuous struggles Billy.

Gun owners in this country have been in a continuous struggle to prevent Liberal Left Democrats from their continuous efforts to infringe upon the 2nd Amendment Rights of law abiding citizens. Yet FUDD's like you stab us all in the backs by supporting and voting for them.

You must approve of their anti-gun efforts, because I have never heard any of you threaten to withhold your support if they don't stop eroding our gun rights. That makes you complicit in what they do. Believe it or not, there are gunsmiths who earn a living by modifying and repairing handguns and semi-automatics. When you and your Democrats restrict or ban those firearms, you are directly hurting those gunsmiths, just as you are hurting the law abiding citizens whose rights are stripped away.

So tell us Billy....

Are you pro-2nd Amendment...

...or are you a Democrat???

You can't be both.

�The hurt�, are you sure that is the appropriate word Uncle Fester, experienced by the loss of trade by gunmakers or law abiding citizens is surely more accurately termed an inconvenience.
The true hurt ,to put it mildly ,is surely experienced by those individuals who suffer when non law abiding citizens are so easily able to acquire semi automatic assault rifles and handguns then wreak havoc with them.

Konor3inch,if you had any brains at all, you could clearly see that my post was a direct response to Billy's lamenting about the uphill struggle that one-man gunsmith shops face. Billy thinks that when I confront some of the gunsmiths here, who incidentally have engaged in internet doxxing and even calling me on the phone to scream vulgar threats, that I am hurting them in some way.

But Billy is not the least bit concerned about the same uphill struggles that other gunsmiths face. Like you, he does not believe that law abiding citizens should be permitted to own and shoot handguns or semi-automatic rifles. Like you, he wishes to sacrifice the legal personal property of law abiding citizens, and help anti-gun politicians to take away portions of their Constitutional rights.

I have posted a photo of the mass murder Charles Whitman, who killed a large number of people with a bolt action Model 700 Remington rifle. That was a long time ago, but you don't seem willing to give up your sporting rifles. Then there was that mass shooting spree in Scotland in 2010 where the killer used a shotgun and .22 rifle. Why are you such a hypocrite? Why do you want us to give up our handguns and semi-automatics, yet you won't give up your shotguns or rifles?

By the way idiot... have you forgotten your crybaby complaint that this is a double gun forum and not a 2nd Amendment Rights forum? So why don't you just keep your anti-gun crap to yourself over in Scotland, or better yet, stick it up your ass along with your head.

Originally Posted By: canvasback

... what the hell is the point of poking the bear, except to get him to respond to you?

It appears the Flying Scotchman has picked up the mantle.

___________________________
https://youtu.be/iLHbp8Q5qQU

Too much information there Fester and as usual not addressing the point raised.
The predictable �guns don�t kill people , people kill people line �
Well it sure helps if you can access an AR15.

Your fear will never allow you to give up your assault weapons as you are your own worst nightmare.

I won�t be giving up my sporting rifles or fine doubles while I am able to gain so much pleasure from their use.
How is the paper punching going will that be on a 10 yards range ?
Quite a challenge. Enjoy. You�re paying for it , in fact everyone is.

The Derrick Bird massacre I told you about was to illustrate that while there is a legitimate use for a firearm the Government will not ban it as no restrictions were brought in after these killings. Perhaps you didn�t get that point , along with many others.

I thought we had agreed that YOU were the Asshat Fester ? Keep up.

"THE CONSTITUTION" of the United States did not Adress "Hunting" guns.

It addressed "Assault" guns. When the 2nd Amendment was written the British Brown Bess & the French Charleville were the two primary Assult guns of the day & They "WERE INCLUDED".

The Militia mentioned in this amendment was NOT the standing army, it was the Citizens (People) of the USA. The Citizens could not form a "Well Regulated Militia" if they had not the Arms to train with, thus the addition of the 2nd Amendment.

Most people of the US realize this, unfortunately those who are Strong Anti-gunners realize it even more so than many others. They also are well aware they have no chance of amending the constitution at present so they try by all means possible to by-pass it. One method is by Splitting gun owners by convincing "THE GULLIBLE" they have no need or should not even Want a military-type arm. One has only to read here on a "GUN FORUM" just how many fall into that "Gullible" category.

Perhaps that right should restrict your assault weapons to Brown Bess and Charleville guns then.

In contrast it may be that your gun industry is convincing people that they need and want an assault weapon ,after all once a few have them it increases the perceived need to others, That seems a good ploy. Just keep it in the cupboard �just in case �while the not so law abiding impact on the general population and increase the perceived need. Money Tree or personal safety ? What do you think ?

Because you are a subject, and not a citizen, you do not clearly grasp what a right is.
A right is not granted by a government. It came from God, and is unalienable. The Second Amendment is a restriction on what government can do. Not the other way around. The exact wording, �Shall not be infringed� is pretty damn hard to get around.
From where you sit, it basically means if I want a Brown Bess, an AR, a Colt revolver, or, any combination of, or, none of the above, it is my business, and most certainly not the government�s.
What you think of any of the above is unimportant and irrelevant.

Best,
Ted

While we have a second amendment other countries do not and while we have a very strong NRA to represent our gun rights other places do not. I strongly suspect that in today's times if a one man one vote took place to abolish the second and turn in our firearms, it might very well pass in America.

But it won't because we are a republic and the constitution is not easily changed and because of the millions of American gun owning members of the NRA won't allow it to happen. GB does not have such constitutional protection and it's countrysports organizations do not represent nearly a majority of of the population. It seems reasonable to me that Brits like Konar3inch feel the way they do...Geo

So is God giving just Americans the right to own an AR15 or is he giving all Christians the right to own an AR15 ?

Does Mohammed grant the right to Muslims to own AK47 s?

Perhaps those that wrote the constitution�s 2nd amendment would be amending it if they were rewriting it today or perhaps God may be thinking that giving that right to own assault rifles was a rash move he may be thinking of withdrawing the right after he has seen the effects of condoning such a right.

Uncle Fester have you dozed off ??