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Posted By: GLS Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/24/20 09:49 PM
The lead has hit the fan. This won't help the vintage doublegun market in the UK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqmR7oCHBpk&feature=youtu.be
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/24/20 10:09 PM
Well, the game buyers are migrating to only buying game that has been harvested w/ non-toxic shot.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/24/20 10:35 PM
It will destroy the shooting industry in Wales.
Perhaps KTM will become reasonably priced.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/24/20 10:50 PM
Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
It will destroy the shooting industry in Wales.
Perhaps KTM will become reasonably priced.


Since when does greatly increasing demand for any commodity result in lower prices?

I've always felt that one of the goals of the anti-lead ammunition zealots was to reduce participation in the shooting sports by making it less affordable to the masses. Reduce participation in shooting and gun ownership, and you have just eliminated a lot of opposition to new gun control laws.

Democrat gun owners should know all about this since they support and defend the most extreme anti-gun and anti-hunting politicians, right?
Posted By: LGF Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/24/20 11:04 PM
The Dane assures us that steel won't rupture Damascus barrels but says nothing about its effects on chokes.
Posted By: KDGJ Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/24/20 11:07 PM
The real interesting piece is all game shooting organizations in the UK are working to support the elimination of lead. They also want more Eco-friendly wads/shells. As Raimey said the UK will have trouble selling game shot meat in the supermarkets shot with lead. Has California's lead shooting ban reduced the cost of alternative ammo?

Another article from on the ban Lead Dead.

Ken
Posted By: GLS Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/24/20 11:08 PM
Fox hunting was banned in the UK because it was easy for the antis to make it a class battle between Lord Winderschmere and the lovable but crafty Reynaud and his adoring fans. With estate game bird shooting it's not so easy for the antis to make an elite vs. the rest of us issue. With Estate shooting, many locals are employed at the estate and arguments have been made that local jobs would be lost if shooting birds became banned. With the collapse of the market for lead shot birds, something had to give. Fortunately for those that live in the South, this isn't going to happen in the near future and possibly ever.
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/24/20 11:09 PM
KTM is made by stamping.
It has never warranted investment in faster technologies, as the volumes have never been there.

There will be no commercial UK shooting industry if the game has to be disposed of in pits.
My favorite shoots have already invested in equipment to produce packaged pheasant and partridge, fear of lead ingestion limits it's commercial appeal.
Posted By: canvasback Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/24/20 11:12 PM
Originally Posted By: keith
Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
It will destroy the shooting industry in Wales.
Perhaps KTM will become reasonably priced.


Since when does greatly increasing demand for any commodity result in lower prices?

I've always felt that one of the goals of the anti-lead ammunition zealots was to reduce participation in the shooting sports by making it less affordable to the masses. Reduce participation in shooting and gun ownership, and you have just eliminated a lot of opposition to new gun control laws.

Democrat gun owners should know all about this since they support and defend the most extreme anti-gun and anti-hunting politicians, right?


Bingo! We have a winner!
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/24/20 11:58 PM
I will have to say that in the back of my mind I'm thinking along the lines of Keith too. Are lead fishing weights next? What about the lead weights used for balance on the sides of auto tyres?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Replacement Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 01:37 AM
CA tried to ban lead sinkers a few years ago. Has not happened yet, but it's probably coming.
Posted By: GLS Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 01:45 AM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
I will have to say that in the back of my mind I'm thinking along the lines of Keith too. Are lead fishing weights next? What about the lead weights used for balance on the sides of auto tyres?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse


lead in terminal fishing tackle has been banned Yellowstone waters for years.
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 02:20 AM
Originally Posted By: GLS
....With estate game bird shooting it's not so easy for the antis to make an elite vs. the rest of us issue. With Estate shooting, many locals are employed at the estate and arguments have been made that local jobs would be lost if shooting birds became banned. With the collapse of the market for lead shot birds, something had to give....

Something tells me that a single day fee for estate shooting is miles out of reach for the average person. It may be a fruitless argument to hope that a few support jobs would be saved. Doesn't anyone care about the jobs lost when a lead foundry is shut down or the fishing tackle industry is slashed? I'd also guess that sending estate shooting harvest to market feels good, but isn't the slightest motivation for those that can afford the luxury. Why not just keep the lead and condemn that tiny bit of tainted food? Just as valid an argument? Anyway, I'm glad these aren't problems facing folks down around your neck of the woods.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 02:24 AM
Originally Posted By: GLS

lead in terminal fishing tackle has been banned Yellowstone waters for years.


Interesting. That I did not know.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 02:36 AM
Nope.
A small day for a team of friends might be $150.00 per guy.

All depends on what you want.
Same number of support staff, same employment issues, just fewer birds shot that day.

Jobs are scare in rural England. People don't get paid alot.
Changes like these are horrendously disruptive.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 02:42 AM
Once they get their foot in the door it's just a matter of time. If you're not fighting against lead bans you're part of the problem.

SRH
Posted By: Colonial Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 03:28 AM
In central Canada lead weights for fish nets are banned.
I have bought old weights from fishermen.
I get old wheel weights for making lead shot, and the percentage of lead is down to about 30%.
The rest is steel and a Zinc alloy - garbage.

Originally Posted By: ellenbr
I will have to say that in the back of my mind I'm thinking along the lines of Keith too. Are lead fishing weights next? What about the lead weights used for balance on the sides of auto tyres?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 04:51 AM
Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
Nope.
A small day for a team of friends might be $150.00 per guy....

....Jobs are scare in rural England. People don't get paid alot.
Changes like these are horrendously disruptive.

Thanks for the insight CZ. Not to question your first hand experiences, but I'd suspect there are also costs for licensing and other hoops to jump through for UK citizens, not visitors of means. What I'm not getting is how a couple of high school buddies can set out on a diy rabbit or bird hunt. How do you convince the next generation to carry on or start new traditions?

As to the jobs, yes I can understand personal devastation from the loss of a job when there wasn't much to start with. In the US, this same line of thinking would shut down the entire steel or coal industries among others without blinking an eye. In my mind, there's no stigma in not making as much as the city folks that're calling the shots. I hope these country folks of the UK don't get nitpicked into submission, it certainly has its successes in the US.
Posted By: GLS Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 10:38 AM
It is a different world across the pond. I was surprised that Wales has banned the use of electronic dog training collars and that Scotland and England are next if it hasn't been done so already. The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA) has a grip on Parliament that PETA (Abby and Willa, too.) wished it had on legislatures here in the US. Gil
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 12:18 PM
Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
Nope.
A small day for a team of friends might be $150.00 per guy.

All depends on what you want.
Same number of support staff, same employment issues, just fewer birds shot that day.

Jobs are scare in rural England. People don't get paid alot.
Changes like these are horrendously disruptive.


Sometimes the beaters and pickers at small shoots are voluntary rather than paid. Guns swap jobs with beaters and pickers. At least that's how Catlow describes the process in his book "Private Thoughts from a Small Shoot". Bigger commercial shoots, the helpers are always paid.

Re the lead ban, there are already steel shot loads available in the UK and approved for guns which are not steel shot proof. They're lower pressure, lower velocity, and restricted to smaller shot sizes . . . I believe no larger than a US #5.
Posted By: SKB Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 01:10 PM
One of the Reservations I hunt has a lead shot ban in place with an exception in place for older guns. I was quite pleased to take advantage of that exception last year.
Posted By: bill schodlatz Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 04:08 PM
Lead for auto wheels are gone.
bill
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 04:54 PM
Well, @ about every intersection I can assure you that you will pick up @ least 1/2 dozen. And there's many more alongside the carriageways.



Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 06:44 PM
You have carriage ways in North Alabama? Really?

Personally I pretty much never see wheel weights on the road and I spend a lot of time running and cycling on paved and unpaved roads around here. They must stick'em on better for cars and trucks than they do carriages... smile
Posted By: Colonial Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 07:53 PM
Originally Posted By: bill schodlatz
Lead for auto wheels are gone.
bill

What is ludicrous here is that stick-on wheel weights are mostly pure lead.
Posted By: lagopus Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/25/20 08:57 PM
We are not amused!

Some Supermarket chains insist on only buying game shot with non-lead alternatives. I understand it is to bring that into line so that game can also be exported to the continent. To some degree I can live with that. Most guns on commercial shoots seem to use either Brownings or Berettas which can be used with steel. If they bring it in it should allow for lead to be used if for personal consumption and not going into the food chain. That also I can live with. A compete ban would mean that I could no longer shoot most of the guns in my collection without buying expensive Bismuth. If forced to use Bismuth then there is going to be a shortage and the price will go up and up.

I live in Derbyshire and about 25% of the county is on lead rich land with large underground deposits that have been mined since before the Romans came. They then mined it extensively. Does that mean we should evacuate 25% of the county because lead is dangerous?

If someone came out with an alternative that was both as effective, could be used in all types of guns and as cheap I would happily use that. So far no one has developed that. Lagopus…..
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/26/20 12:17 AM
Diggory's "Vintage Gun Journal" ariticle:

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/a-voluntary-phase-out-of-lead-shot-

Gold is the next element up from lead. It's malleable, mixable, and heavy. Waiting for synthetic Gold shot to appear (as alchemists have done for centuries).
Posted By: eeb Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/26/20 12:26 AM
Those so called advocates for UK country sports are appeasers. Will the increased cost for nontox shot be passed on to the game sellers and the consumer? That will get their attention. That said, thick wads and (more) open chokes should be safe for steel shot. The case against plastic wads is largely over blown IMO.
Posted By: GLS Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/26/20 12:58 AM
The issue with plastic wads is some of the land shot is grazed by sheep. Sheep, not overly top heavy with good sense, eat them and it causes serious issues. I can understand why fiber wads are required in that instance. Gil
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/26/20 01:04 AM
Originally Posted By: Argo44

Gold is the next element up from lead. It's malleable, mixable, and heavy. Waiting for synthetic Gold shot to appear (as alchemists have done for centuries).


The real deal:

https://www.edelt-rogy.at/

€ 100,000 per box of 20. I can get you all you desire. Safe for all doubles mind you......


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/26/20 12:42 PM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
You have carriage ways in North Alabama? Really?

Personally I pretty much never see wheel weights on the road and I spend a lot of time running and cycling on paved and unpaved roads around here. They must stick'em on better for cars and trucks than they do carriages... smile


Brent, I did a lot of running on rural highways when I lived in Iowa. (And for that matter, occasionally hunting "ditch parrots" by walking gravel roads with my dog in the ditch.) Can't say I ever recall seeing a wheel weight. Suppose maybe Iowa raccoons eat them??? smile
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/26/20 01:11 PM
No, a Motor Patrol grading the shoulder will hide them or if you live in town, a street sweeper will kick them down the road. I've see them for 40+ years & NEVER have I seen anyone picking them up less some fishermen for lead weights. So they are still there. One can pick up enough coinage for a snack & enough wheel weights for sinkers @ an intersection. If you haven't seen them, you just aren't looking. Maybe it is because you can't run or bike on controlled access thoroughfares?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/26/20 01:13 PM
Yes we have carriageways, right-of-ways, roadways, thoroughfares, etc. in Alabama.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/26/20 01:20 PM
Larry actually spends his time looking at bald eagles that are feasting on deer gut piles that are laced with lead bullet fragments... that, or looking for another reason to bash our pro-gun President Donald Trump.

BrentD is looking for bugs. If he doesn't see many bugs, that's a clear sign of global warming. And if his windshield is splattered with lots of bugs, well that's a sign of global warming too. He really thinks that the Upland Journal forum is a great place. That's why he spends so much time here.
Posted By: HeymSR20 Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/27/20 10:49 AM
Shooting and hunting is facing an uphill battle in the UK. With phaesant shooting there are large number of big commercial shoots, where guns are paying upwards of £40 a bird and team of 8 to 10 guns will 200 if not more in a day. These are commercial ventures using marhinal lands / woodlands to bring income into an estate. They employ good numbers of game keepers, dogs, handlers and the vast majority of phaesants shot are reared and released. Shoots are putting down 20 or 30,000 birds a year and shoot several days a week.

Many shoots are now showing high flying birds at ranges of 50/60 or 70 yards high - 36g or 42g duck shooting type cartridges are being used with long barreled modern over and unders. Not many old guns are suitable for such shooting (ok perhaps pigeon / wildfowling guns).

On a typical shoot shot to kill ratio is typically 3 or 4 to 1. So hundreds if not thousands of cartridges are bing fired, and given that it is driven shooting most are fired from the same spots each time.

Hence there is a lot of lead and plastic wads going onto the land.

There is unequivocal evidence that lead salts are poisonous to both man and many forms of wildlife - not only birds of prey eating shot birds, but also partridges and other seed eaters picking up pellets. And the UK is densely populated country.

This is not a legal ban, its voluntary phasing out of lead shot and ammunition for game shooting and deer stalking.

We have had to use non toxic shot on waterfowl for a few years now. Early steel cartridges were rubbish. But modern steel in my experience works well and drop fast flying ducks just as well as old lead shot. Yes a modern Franchi semi auto. Now i don't my 100 year Alex Martin sidelock ribless onto the duck marsh.

I do use it with lightly loaded cartridges of fine days. Will I continue to use it -yes but with light cartridges. Probably with bismuth, but there are plenty older guns in use and with the correct wad, i am sure cartridge manufacturers can produce the right cartridge.

For mainstream shooting, most shooters wont really notice much difference. The main difference is the shot game can be sold and go into the humane food chain.

Sadly in the UK we have very little walked up shooting with two or three good friends a couple of dogs, you cover ten miles a day and you each shoot two or three birds for your own consumption.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/27/20 11:20 AM
Good post and covers the issue so far. There is no proposal for a voluntary ban on lead rifle ammunition however and as clay shooting is not included in the voluntary ban it will be possible post voluntary ban to practice with your Alex Martin on clays. Which brings up the issue of whether you can clay shoot with lead only on designated clay ranges rather on farm land I suspect clay shooting with lead will be restricted to established clay shooting grounds.
Personally the announcement has caused me to rethink the purchase of any British two and a half inch chambered gun as all my purchases are hunted with and shooting bismuth regularly may be too expensive. I will also not be bidding on the 28 bore Alex Martin over and under in the Holts sale this March as I will be a bit cautious until I see how things develop .
It will be interesting to see if the voluntary ban announcement has any effect on the March Holts sale of small bore shotguns and two and a half inch chambered side by sides.
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/27/20 12:40 PM
Has anyone in the UK gotten lead poisoning from eating lead shot harvested game? There are probably some people that have eaten this type of game over a long lifetime, has the frequeny of related lead poisoning become more common? Is there a number of victims?

My suspicion would be that a voluntary action may be the result of opinions rather than for a public health problem. It will probably be easier in the future to remove the voluntary aspect of the ban and to expand it to other areas of shooting sports, the common theme being the affect on shooting sport not health problem.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/27/20 01:29 PM
The voluntary ban will become compulsory in five years which is said to allow time for ammunition development of non lead ammunition with non plastic wads.
As far as I am aware there are no recorded cases of human lead poisoning in the UK caused by consumption of game.
One factor is the marketing of considerable amounts of game from commercial shoots as there is no export market for lead shot game and domestic sales to supermarkets are insisting on non lead shot game.
Wildfowlers who have been using non lead ammunition for years now are not so phased by the announcement and are on the whole more optimistic on shootings future here in the UK but I think a lot of game shooters are more resistant to change and feel let down that the the lead ban wasn’t fought a bit harder by the shooting organisations representing them.
It is debatable whether this has been brought about by the large scale deposition of lead shot on commercial shoots or the shooting organisations preempting imminent legislation to cut a better deal for shooters by having a phased ban. The phased ban would give time to allow shooters to adapt their shotguns if necessary and try alternative ammunition prior to a ban and enable cartridge manufacturers time to develop ammunition suitable for the UK market.
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/27/20 02:31 PM
Despite the UKs withdrawal from the Eu, the voluntary phase out sets a precedent for the rest of Europe. More so because the phase out is backed by organizations that have scientific staff that publish in journals.

The quesion is how a wider ban on lead will affect shotgun technology. The Danish getleman interviewed on the Youtube video says that they are OK using even old damascus barrels to shoot steel. I wonder...
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/27/20 03:28 PM
I’m hoping perhaps naively that an exception might be made for Damascus barrel shotguns . I think there is EU legislation in the pipeline already.
Posted By: King Brown Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/27/20 03:35 PM
On technology, wherever there's a dollar to be made in our consumer culture someone will come up with reasonable alternatives. The "big question" is how long it takes to get magnumitis out of shooters' heads. Anything in 7,000psi-range and 1200fps has been good to me for 80 years.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/27/20 04:02 PM
The range being quoted for steel shot non magnum loads suitable for a 2 3/4 12 bore is 25 to 30 metres ,for rough shooting that’s not ideal . I’m hoping that will be improved on so that 2 1/2 inch chambered guns will be a viable proposition when the ban is introduced.
The birds I remember from the season are the 40 yard driven pheasants that fold up. If the ban curtails that I can see myself switching from pheasants to flighted duck. I’d sooner shoot closer fast moving duck at evening flight into wetland than shoot pheasants at under 30 yards.
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/27/20 05:29 PM
It's a tremendous opportunity for wad development.

I think scintered W (Tungsten) loads, and co-polymer pellets, will take the place of the heavy lead loads on the high bird shoots.

The costs are going to be moved around, but the guns can definitely expect to pay much more.
10-1 days will be much more rare.

And, (I pray this to be true) images of end loaders disposing of birds on large bag days will be things of the past.

Frank Boddy and I have talked about these issues for years.

Personally, I wish someone would produce a pheasant bratwurst, and sell them frozen as a "Save our sport!" Fundraiser, into American gun clubs.

Our market is so big, that instead of paying for disposal, money might actually be made on it.

My club is the beneficiary of a member that owns a preserve, and grinds breasts and thighs into a grillable sausage.
Older gents love them, as they are much leaner than commercial brats.
Posted By: HeymSR20 Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/27/20 05:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
Good post and covers the issue so far. There is no proposal for a voluntary ban on lead rifle ammunition however and as clay shooting is not included in the voluntary ban it will be possible post voluntary ban to practice with your Alex Martin on clays. Which brings up the issue of whether you can clay shoot with lead only on designated clay ranges rather on farm land I suspect clay shooting with lead will be restricted to established clay shooting grounds.
Personally the announcement has caused me to rethink the purchase of any British two and a half inch chambered gun as all my purchases are hunted with and shooting bismuth regularly may be too expensive. I will also not be bidding on the 28 bore Alex Martin over and under in the Holts sale this March as I will be a bit cautious until I see how things develop .
It will be interesting to see if the voluntary ban announcement has any effect on the March Holts sale of small bore shotguns and two and a half inch chambered side by sides.


I shot that Alex Martin 28 Bore, or one very very like it a few years ago when Dickson had an open day at Dunkeld. I very much coveted it and it shot superbly. Those Alex Martin over and under's where made by an Italian maker within the last 20 years, but sadly it went out of business a few years ago. I would much less concern about the availability and use of steel in one of those, than a vintage 2 1/2" chambered gun. If it was a 20 bore, absolutely no issues getting non-toxic and there are plenty of modern 28s in use that it is worth cartridge manufacturers working on developing cartridges.

As for high birds, well a 3" High Velocity Steel cartridge seems to bring down high wigeon well enough with my Franchi Semi Auto. With the correct gun and cartridge I expect high pheasants will be the same - most seem to be shot with modern 3" chambered long barrelled variable chocked over and under by Perrazzi, Berretta or Browning.

And with older guns, Dig Haddeokes article on Vintage Guns makes good reading. Frankly if you can afford to shoot driven phaesants at c£40 a bird or driven grouse at whatever £lots then go form £0.30 a bang to £1.00 is n't actually going to add a lot of cost. For me a days small shoot with Alex Martin will cost me £25 in bismuth cartridges - and I won't waste them on high flying pigeons and pick and choose my shots.

As for Rifles, the Forestry Commission in England has switched to non-toxic and in extensive testing have found no real difference to traditional bullets. I use the Fox brand from Edinburgh Rifles in my 7x57 and very pleased with the results. They punch a clean 2" diameter hole straight through, deer drop dead very quickly, but you don't all the bruising that you do with a traditional lead bullet. Typically I put a bullet through the shoulder and there is minimal meat damage. With a typical Interlock type bullet I would expect to loose a shoulder on this type of shot.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/27/20 07:25 PM
I shot an orvis uplander 20 bore all last season on a small walk one stand one shoot and shot far better than usual and considered moving down to a 28 bore. I’ve handled a few Alex Martin over and unders and like yourself was very impressed and I like the straight hand on a lighter gun hence my interest in the Holts Alex Martin.
I shoot near the Solway and there’s always the odd goose flighting over so the drop from carrying a 3 inch 12 ,with the ability to use the odd heavy goose load,to a twenty took a bit of thinking about. In practice it wasn’t an issue but I think using a 28 with anything less than an equivalent maximum lead load at the lower flying geese I wouldn’t be comfortable with. I’m not ruling out a 28 in future just don’t want to jump for it before I’m clearer on what the future holds
I shoot a few roe with my .222 will that still be suitable for roe deer using non lead ammunition ?
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/27/20 11:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
The voluntary ban will become compulsory in five years which is said to allow time for ammunition development of non lead ammunition with non plastic wads.


So essentially, the "voluntary ban" isn't voluntary at all. It would be best to cut the crap and start calling it exactly what it is... a compulsory ban.

These word games are no different than firearm, magazine, or ammunition bans that our anti-gun Liberal Democrats try to get enacted by calling them "common sense gun laws" or "gun safety measures".

Not to be condescending, but I'd like to think that shooters and gun owners in the UK would have learned how the anti-gunners operate by now.

Originally Posted By: Konor3inch

As far as I am aware there are no recorded cases of human lead poisoning in the UK caused by consumption of game.


Exactly! There is documented scientific evidence that people who consume hunter shot game are not being poisoned by lead shot or bullet fragments. And if the tired old falsehood about lead salts or lead oxide leaching into soils and lakes and causing lead poisoning was true, all of the vast tonnage of lead shot fired into our marshes, lakes, rivers, and estuaries before the U.S. ban on lead shot for waterfowl hunting would still be causing mass poisoning of waterfowl. Every living creature in or around Civil War battlefields like Gettysburg should be dead or dying from all of the lead bullets in the soil. Nobody went out there and cleaned it all up.

The simple fact of the matter is that larger pieces of lead are not a very bio-available form of lead as a toxin. It was much different with the tetraethyl lead in gasoline, or the lead in paints and many other chemical compounds. We've hashed this fact out here many times before, but we still have hunters in the U.S. who fall for the bullshit, and refuse to push back against junk science and outright lies. Most any person who eats hunter shot birds knows of the possibility of biting into shot that wasn't found during cleaning. They chew gently, and they certainly don't swallow any they may bite into. In the event that they did inadvertently swallow lead shot, it would very quickly pass out the other end, and into the crapper. Of course, biting into steel shot is a lot more likely to break a tooth, and other so-called non-toxic shot has its' own environmental toxicity.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 12:38 AM
The voluntary ban has been instigated by the major game shooting organisations in the UK to encourage shooters to switch to non lead shot. Legally there is no requirement to do so.
The five year period will allow manufacturers to clear their stock of lead shot and hopefully come up with suitable alternatives.
After the five years government will legislate ,there may be exemptions for older weapons or for those shooting game for their own consumption. The large commercial shoots will probably have no option other than to switch to non lead shot after the five year period is up as may we all.
Shooters are well aware of how antis operate here in the UK having come through a raft of legislation banning an array of firearms and having to comply with ever more licensing ,there is no need to state the obvious .
This voluntary ban is just voluntary over a five year period there will be no need to switch from lead during that period . After the five years there will be a compulsory ban or more simply a ban.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 12:56 AM
I'd heap rather bite down on a lead shot and spit it out than crack a tooth on steel...Geo
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 01:50 AM
Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
....And, (I pray this to be true) images of end loaders disposing of birds on large bag days will be things of the past....

I'm all for responsible taking and use of game, but maybe the truth is that estate shooting is a luxury not a necessity. Out of sight causing things to be out of mind is useful, just as justification for sustenance is dishonest. The estates are running a business, why not let the individual shoots decide if they want their harvest to be marketable, or if the return isn't worth the effort?
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 02:41 AM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch

Shooters are well aware of how antis operate here in the UK having come through a raft of legislation banning an array of firearms and having to comply with ever more licensing ,there is no need to state the obvious .
This voluntary ban is just voluntary over a five year period there will be no need to switch from lead during that period . After the five years there will be a compulsory ban or more simply a ban.


Respectfully, I disagree completely. There actually is a need to state the obvious, because the compulsory ban on lead shot is coming. The fact that dealers and manufacturers get a short time to clear their stocks of lead ammo, and change over production to ballistcally inferior and much more costly non-lead alternatives means nothing. Shooters and gun owners in the UK have been royally screwed again.

They call this sort of attrition a death by a thousand cuts.

The anti-gun forces always say that they just want this one more reasonable little concession, but they soon come back to take away more gun rights. Don't take this observation personally. We have a lot of guys right here in the U.S. who still think they can appease the anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats by giving up someone else's rights to own an AR15, an autoloader, a handgun, a large cap magazine, lead ammunition, scoped high power rifles, etc. These guys keep on voting for the anti-gun politicians who keep coming back to take away more freedom from law abiding citizens.They have to be mentally ill, and they undermine all gun owners.

Repeatedly pointing those facts out has made me a hated enemy to several of them here. I can live with that.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 08:50 AM
Hi Keith I’m not taking your posts personally you are right to draw attention to our loss. What I am saying is we know a ban is coming and that the governments aim is to introduce legislation to restrict lead shot in the environment . To that end it has ,through the statement made by our shooting organisations here in the UK, expressed its intention to ban lead for all live shooting

The organisations which previously held the view that there would be no change from lead until there was scientific evidence to justify that change have u turned. The magazine writers in shooting times over the last year have been writing more positive articles on steel cartridges and some even writing that they had switched over to steel and how successful it has been long before this announcement If you look at the UK based pigeonwatch forum and read the reaction on the steel shot / voluntary ban threads amongst other things you will see shooters, yes shooters ,proposing a ban on game shooting and an adoption of simulated game shooting instead ie clay shooting over ground once used to drive pheasants commercially, all while they continue pigeon shooting ,wildfowling or deer stalking.
This self interest and inability by some shooters to pull together will encourage those opposed to any form of live shooting and highlights the divisions within the shooting world.
These attempts at appeasement when under so little pressure reflect badly on a section of UK shooters but in their eyes the availability of a Eleys 2 3/4 steel game load with a biodegradable shot cup wad is sufficient to warrant a complete ban on lead shot for live shooting.

I can only imagine that legal change was imminent, that the shooting organisations reasoned ,perhaps partly because our shooting community was so divided .that we would not successfully oppose it ,and opted to preempt a total ban by the voluntary ban this would give shooters time to plan their adoption of non lead alternatives and use up their lead ammunition and allow a transition period for ammunition manufacturers to sell off their lead game cartridge stocks and switch to non lead production for their game cartridges.
Clay pigeon shooting will continue with lead which unbelievably has resulted in a call on shooting forums for a total ban on all lead shot shooting ...........BY SHOOTERS.
And all this before we take in to account the work of the anti shooting brigade.
Phew.

Posted By: bavarianbrit Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 09:01 AM
Consider the effect if there is steel shot left in the corners of a stomach who then has an MRI scan (extreme magnetic field) the lawyers will have a field day.
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 11:01 AM
Anyone ever tried to scan a steel shot bird with a metal scanner? To find and pick out steel shot before cooking?
Posted By: Demonwolf444 Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 11:16 AM
Throwing my 2P's worth into the hat. - Short story - there is no market for the birds we kill for fun, shooting is pretty much just an avenue for spending money, it doesn't make the shooting community look good.

I live in the UK in a big shooting area. Lots of people are involved with shooting sports here, not only that but lots of people shoot and own guns that are not that into shooting. Plenty of farmers and agricultural workers have guns, but may never actually go on a big shoot, so first thing to understand is that while there is a lot of big estate shoots ( i live on the boundary of three employing more than 6 full time game keepers) but there is also a lot of shooting that isn't driven game shooting at all.

Most pest control on farms is carried out by private individuals who do it as much for sport as for practical concerns.

Anyhow, when you look at whats gone on about a year ago the BGA was formed, the British game alliance. The alliance was seeking new markets for shot game, the problem is in the UK there is very little home market.

85% of consumers have never bought or cooked game of any sort at home.

When you look at the hayday of shooting the sale of game from the first days shooting would generally cover the Labour costs of producing the game and shooting it. In the old days birds were reared from eggs from wild stocks. Now days everything is bought in most the eggs that are hatched are not produced in this country. Its saves Labour and that's expensive.

Lets look at the average "estate" shoot.

This small estate employs one full time game keeper to which the estate usually provided a house, work clothing, and dog food as part of the job. Your average pay for our average keeper is about £21,000 per year,( about $27,000 ) your probably producing single handed the same shooting that it once took three or four men to produce each year. The value of the property is probably worth at least half that income to the estate if rented to anyone else per year.

Each bird produced and released is about £12.40 per bird.

the return is about 38%. 62% of the birds you release will not be seen again in hand.

Lets say the estate shoots 3 days a week, two small days and a larger day, for arguments sakes two 150 bird days and a 300 bird day. over the 16 weeks of the season thats 48 days shooting.
600 birds harvested a week, for 16 weeks, 9,600 birds shot, but thats only 38% of what you produced, so we need to raise about 25,000 pheasants.

25,000 birds will cost about £310,250 to rear and release.
the average price per bird is about £34.61 a cost that has doubled in the last 10 years so your 9600 shot birds are worth about £332,160 in income from the sold days.
your just about covering your game keepers salary at this point.

Fortunately you end up with 9600 birds to sell, which are worth about £0.30p each, this has halved in the last 10 years, bringing in an extra 3k or there about, looking at it like this working from average figures the costs just don't add up.

this is before you get to having to pay beaters, often £40 - £50 a day in my experience ( but the average figures say £25- £35 )
and pickers up with the reported average at £30 - £50)

The fact is that many estate shoots are running so that their owners can enjoy one or two family days at minimal expense, and invite guests who each return the favor with another day at their expense.

Its a game you can only afford to play when you have lots of money doing nothing, if the estate was concerned about making money or running as a business, they would double their profit by renting out the game keepers cottage.

Economically the industry just doesn't really work. You pass on all the costs of the birds to the guns that shoot them and get to sell the shot game; brilliant, but in the past there was a market for game, and now there is none.

Its difficult to sell an end product that contains lead, its isn't so much that people are concerned about eating lead, its that they are unfamiliar with eating game, cooking game, its not atypical in the populations diet, yet each year we harvest tons of it that we just cant sell, Meat here is quite cheap i think, as farming is heavily subsidized we dont pay the true cost of food, for instance it costs about £18 to produce a chicken to sell, yet we buy them oven ready for £3.80 go figure.

A great market for pheasant meat would be dog food, its a sad waste but not nearly as sad as estates running incinerators.

Nobody will buy dog food that will contain ground up lead particles. Americans wouldn't buy pheasant bratwurst minced with lead in it. Lead is pretty tough to extract from the meat. No not many people die from lead poisoning but it doesn't mean its good for you, it stands to reason anyway as clearly not that many people are regularly consuming the quantity's of game they would have to eat to consume all that is shot!

Steel has to be the answer as it is in theory easy to extract, mash the meet, float it on water over powerful magnets.

on your 150 bird day, there might be 8 guns, 19 birds a piece or there abouts, lets say they are high birds, 5 - 1 ratio, 95 shots per gun for the day, you cartridge cost for high performance game load steel is £267.000 per thousand cartridges. 0.27p per shot.

If your shooting high birds your probably not doing it with an old hammer gun; if you are you might need bismuth. £1142.00 / thousand. £1.15/shot or and extra £110 to shoot for the day. I think if your that dedicated and broke you will either just suck it up and shoot a new gun, or if your that dedicated you will just pay the extra £110.

Source available for average figures, full report below.
https://pdf.euro.savills.co.uk/uk/rural---other/shoot-benchmarking-survey-2017-2018-season.pdf


Posted By: L. Brown Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 12:41 PM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
No, a Motor Patrol grading the shoulder will hide them or if you live in town, a street sweeper will kick them down the road. I've see them for 40+ years & NEVER have I seen anyone picking them up less some fishermen for lead weights. So they are still there. One can pick up enough coinage for a snack & enough wheel weights for sinkers @ an intersection. If you haven't seen them, you just aren't looking. Maybe it is because you can't run or bike on controlled access thoroughfares?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


Let's see . . . fishermen can walk along picking up stray lead weights on controlled access thoroughfares in Alabama . . . but joggers can't run on the shoulder of the road? (Not that there aren't better places to run!) Gotta be some strange laws down there in AL.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 12:54 PM
Re the issue of lead poisoning in humans who eat game killed with lead shot or bullets: Several years ago, there was concern about game being donated to places that offered meals to the poor and homeless. In North Dakota, where hunting is very popular and residents are far more likely to eat game than they are in more urban states, blood samples were collected from a large number of volunteers--nearly all of whom said they ate wild game. Tests showed that the blood lead level of those volunteers was actually LOWER than the nationwide average . . . which would seem to indicate that the lead one consumes from eating game isn't all that great a concern, unless maybe one eats nothing but a steady diet of wild game.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 01:30 PM
Hi demonwolf444.
It doesn’t make commercial driven shooting in the UK look good but the excesses of some commercial shoots couldn’t be portrayed in a good light.
It seems that the ban will not be driven by peer reviewed scientific study showing any detrimental effects of lead in the environment but brought about by by the perceived need to allow large commercial shoots to hopefully market their by product and allow meat to be easily processed fit for consumption in dog food.
And all the while barely scraping a profit.
All this with no anti involvement.
Perhaps we will see cans of dog food advertised with pictures of shooters holding up a brace of pheasants.
If the problem lies with commercial shoots inability to sell lead shot game then let those shoots insist on steel bismuth or tungsten shot and leave shooters who eat the game they shoot to continue using lead shot in their old guns which may be unsuitable for non lead shot.
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 01:47 PM
If the ever increasing restrictions keep coming back to being an image problem. Maybe, law abiding shooters could make proactive efforts to not buy into the image. The other thing would be to have an effective political lobby, keeping in mind that a real measure of effectiveness is the level of demonizing by the opposition not agreeable porosity.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 02:03 PM
Sorry craigd I’m struggling to see your point ,could you be more specific.

From the forums Facebook and twitter accounts of anti fieldsports supporters I have read shooters couldn’t be more demonised it’s what we do that causes this demonisation not how effective we are in putting across a pro fieldsports point.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 02:10 PM
Re the issue of concentrated shot fall on estates where there is commercial driven shooting:

If there is concern about partridges ingesting lead shot, there's a fairly simple method to determine whether it's a serious issue: Examine the gizzards of all partridges shot on the estate. This was done on a quail research facility in the US where a large number of birds were shot in a relatively small area. 241 gizzards examined . . . 3 contained lead pellets.
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 02:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Shotgunlover
Anyone ever tried to scan a steel shot bird with a metal scanner? To find and pick out steel shot before cooking?

I have/occasionally use, a Wizard, metal detecting device.
It’s slow, and tedious to use.
Great for scanning reclaimed lumber, not so much for waterfowl.

Since cooked feathers taste awful, I found that probing wounds, and filleting my waterfowl gives me better results.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 02:19 PM
A good point L Brown but I fear the dye is cast and perception emotion and politics are taking precedence over presentation of a scientific argument for change
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 07:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
Sorry craigd I’m struggling to see your point ,could you be more specific....

....it’s what we do that causes this demonisation....

I suspect that your entire recreational shooting industry is under pressure from antis, not just the estate shoots. From what I have seen in the US, if shooters have an organization that can lobby on their behalf politically, the more effect that lobby is, the more demonized and marginalized antis will want it to appear.

When I watched the video at the start of this thread, people in your shooting industry are saying that they are only doing the voluntary ban to strengthen sport gunning. Those of you who have commented do not seem to be looking forward to an improvement? It appears to me that every time the antis bring up a complaint, the response is the give another inch? I may be wrong, but instead of feeling the antis have a reason to demonize you, ask yourself why it isn’t just as valid to demonize their position? It’s likely just cultural differences, and only my thoughts.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 07:24 PM
I"ll bet that when fools finally give up their guns and a true tyrant takes control of the government, people will regret having only torches and pitchforks to defend their children and possessions...Geo

It is not the hunting, it is the guns. Don't be confused by that.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 07:54 PM
Thanks for the clarification craigd ,I agree we seem to always be on the back foot and not proactive in the face of attack from the anti fieldsports community.
The divisions here among shooters does not help either and our lack of access to common ground to hunt on is a disadvantage as we lack that opportunity to normalise our hunting instinct and make it more inclusive to the general population .Instead we are prone to be seen as an elitist group characterised as toffs on the moor on the twelfth or hooray henrys blasting away at pheasants at a covert side and I think it is those generalisations which make it easy to polarise opinion.
It appears now that there was no consultation with the cartridge manufacturers who have now issued a statement to that effect and contradicting the statement by the fieldsports organisations. The whole issue has turned into a bit of a farce
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 02/28/20 08:49 PM
It might be helpful if your field sport organizations and the ammunition manufacturers would cosponsor youth shooting events. If it’s anything like in the US, your next generation is being conditioned to demonize some of these activities without know why.
Posted By: KDGJ Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/03/20 05:17 PM
It appears the UK cartridge manufacturers aren't going to be able to meet the 5 year timeline. Cartridge Reply. All is not roses.

Ken
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/03/20 08:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
A good point L Brown but I fear the dye is cast and perception emotion and politics are taking precedence over presentation of a scientific argument for change


That's a real shame. I had no idea that it was so bad. But then again, I don't recall a lot of resistance in the past when the anti-gunners started chipping away at gun ownership in the UK.

I think there is a lesson to be learned here. Recently, anti-gun Democrats were elected to govern our State of Virginia. Predictably, it wasn't very long before the Democrat Governor and Democrat Legislature began pushing anti-gun legislation. The gun owners and shooters of Virginia could have given up and said that the die is cast. Instead, they pushed back in a big way. At least 85 of 95 Virginia Counties have passed a measure declaring themselves 2nd Amendment Sanctuaries-- i.e., places where the new anti-gun laws will not be enforced or adhered to. Sheriffs and Police Officials have served notice that they will not enforce these Unconstitutional laws. One County Sheriff announced that he will deputize citizens if Democrats pass and attempt to enforce these measures:

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6114900990001#sp=show-clips

Unfortunately, we do have gun owners here who also would simply permit the anti-gunners to continue to chip away at our Constitutional Rights. Many of them are even foolish enough to support and vote for anti-gun Democrats.

Here is what one of the Framers of our Constitution, George Mason said almost 250 years ago. His words are as relevant today as they were back then:



“[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man – who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually, by totally disusing and neglecting the militia.”
George Mason

Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/03/20 09:54 PM
Keith,
The situation here in Scotland is a bit different from America .
Firearms for game shooting or target only and a declining interest in both over the last couple of decades by the general population. Although I was brought up in the country where shotguns were common here in the city I know very few people who have any interest in using firearms. For example no one I work with, around 100 people , is a gun owner.
The restrictions on firearms ownership have come about after mass shootings the Hungerford massacre by Michael Ryan brought about the ban on self loading centre fire rifles and the Dunblane massacre by Thomas Hamilton brought about the handgun ban.
After serving in the Army I held a firearms certificate for pistol shooting which I surrendered after Dunblane . I wasn’t too bothered ,clay shooting ,wildfowling game shooting and deer stalking were more enjoyable and the pistol clubs had their fair share of Walter Mittys who although harmless were a bit tedious.
We are fortunate in Scotland that real gun crime incidents are low, and restricted to drug feud hits when they occur , so we have little fear of a firearm related attack. The limited availability of handguns here means no one feels the need to carry a firearm to protect oneself so no we don’t have access to handguns but then we don’t really need them.
This general low interest in firearms related pastimes and the perceived lack of need to be armed both compared to USA has probably contributed to a lack of opposition in general to firearms restrictions.
Of course within the associations there is a continual fight to combat an increase in restrictions but there is no one fighting to enable Scots to conceal carry handguns and I’m quite glad that is the case.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/03/20 10:37 PM
Konor3inch, I am much more concerned about being injured or killed from a medical mistake or from a collision with someone who is texting while driving. Those things pose much more actual risk to those of us living in the U.S. than being assaulted with a handgun or shot by a semi-auto rifle in any mass shooting.

I've made the point before about the low level of firearms ownership in Russia and the much higher incidence of murder and violent firearms crime in Russia versus the U.S.

The U.S. has over 300 million guns and a 2012 murder rate of 4.7 per 100,000. Russia has only 13 million guns, and a 2012 murder rate of 9.2 per 100,000. So we have over 23 times as many guns and a murder rate about half as high as Russia. It would seem that the problem is cultural rather than due to the availability of guns.

I'm quite confident that if some mentally ill nut or terrorist decides to inflict mass murder upon Scotland, the past and future gun bans will not stop them. Let's not forget that the recent attack in Nice, France killed 87 people with a truck as the weapon of choice. Our anti-gun news media barely reported the 33 people killed in a mass murder that did not involve any guns in July, 2019 in Japan... another country with severe firearms restrictions:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan...n-idUSKCN1UD1UN

With the low interest in guns and shooting as a result of the attrition in Scotland, you probably won't be all that upset when the anti-gunners finish their goal of eliminating guns from your country. I sincerely hope that gun owners here in the U.S. keep on fighting.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/03/20 11:32 PM
Keith ,
I see no anti gun activity here in Scotland ,their seems to be no goal to eliminate all guns from the country. All firearms here are licensed and itemised on those licenses and have been for some time now including air guns I don’t see any evidence of a move to restrict ownership of target weapons , shotguns or stalking rifles or moves to confiscate them I am fond of my rifles and shotguns having owned some 50 years now and have had great fun with them I don’t see any danger of the government depriving me of their use in my life time.
When terrorist attackers have to resort to using knives in their attacks you can see the benefit of not having semi auto centre fires available to the general public.
I agree that gun ownership and deaths due to gun violence do not correlate with rate of ownership and that the cause is most likely cultural but I think that the difficulty in obtaining firearms and ammunition in this country has perhaps prevented a few “mentally ill nuts “from wreaking havoc here in Scotland.
I’m glad you are among the fortunate who have no need to worry about gun crime but I am well enough informed to know that in many areas of the US gun violence and mass shootings are a blight on society a situation we have thankfully been able to avoid here in Scotland since the Dunblane massacre in 1996 and the resultant restrictions.


Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 03:11 AM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....I see no anti gun activity here in Scotland ,their seems to be no goal to eliminate all guns....

I'm glad your future is secure in Scotland. Possibly, you might see that you are a meaningful anti gun activist, and please don't take it the wrong way. It seems like you throw any shooter that doesn't like the types of arms that you do into the okay to eliminate category? Is it possible that the situation that you are comfortable with, hunt deer and shoot ducks, is some how responsible for not allowing access for the new shooter or less fortunate to take up the sport? You mentioned recent licensing of air rifles, and that's not a trend that will ensure more anti firearm activities are to come?

On a side note, myself and my family are regularly in parts of the country where a high percentage of people carry concealed arms and nearly all vehicles have a loaded gun of some type in it. I honestly believe that it is a fallacy to think that everyone 'needs' a gun because of some fear of gun violence. Here, it is a right, and all it then becomes is a choice whether to exercise that right or not. No one expresses fear in these situations, and the majority of folks know the situation is extremely safe, your 'nut jobs' are more than smart enough to seek locales that a kitchen knife would strike fear in the general population.

There are many parts of the US that have the highest firearm restrictions, and yet the absolute worst factual and feeling of safety. No go zones, so to speak. The thing that makes you refer to criminal use of a firearm, in the US as a 'blight', is most definitely a talking point created by a political agenda.

Again, please don't take it as bashing, it's just my opinion. I still think, if kids aren't interested, it's only because they haven't had the exposure. Maybe there aren't many opportunities to introduce new shooters because it is cost prohibitive? Make no mistake about it, making the sport unafforable an inch at a time is specifically an antigun activity, even if some piece paper says folks have the privilege of purchasing an air rifle license. Don't mind me, thanks for sharing your experiences.
Posted By: Colonial Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 03:52 AM

I see no anti gun activity here in Scotland.

I feel you only choose to "see no anti-activity", and seem to actually condone it.
The kilted tortoise is crawly along, never fear.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 04:09 AM
Konor3inch, It is amusing that you don't see any evidence or intent to outlaw or confiscate the arms that you are still permitted to own. The anti-gunners took your handguns, and they took your semi-autos. In addition, they required the licensing or registration of all remaining guns... even including air rifles! Now you are here commenting on a voluntary lead shot ban that is anything but voluntary.

For some odd reason, I am thinking about that quote I posted earlier from George Mason, when he related how the governor of Colonial Pennsylvania advised British Parliament the best way to disarm the Colonists. And I am also thinking about the old saying about tossing a frog into a pot of boiling water. The frog reflexively jumps out, scalded but still alive. But if you put the frog in a pot of cold water and gradually turn up the heat, he will remain in the pot until he is boiled to death.

So tell us, if some mentally ill nut or some terrorist killed or injured a number of people using either a stalking rifle, or shotgun, or target gun... how long do you think it would be before the knee-jerk solution would be to simply eliminate another class of inanimate objects that have been slowly turned into little more than an anachronism? Thanks to your universal registration, they know right where to find them. And is your government really more concerned about a mass murder with an air rifle than they are about potential violence with a knife or a vehicle, or perhaps a nice arson fire such as the one that snuffed out 33 lives in Japan about 8 months ago?

Honestly, I can't remember the last time I heard of a mass shooting or a murder with an air rifle. If I didn't know better, I'd suspect that the real intent is to demonize all guns. It's supposed to be a nice day tomorrow. I may just go out in the back yard and shoot my recently acquired Smith & Wesson .22 revolver. Or I may decide to shoot one of a dozen or so other handguns... just because I can. How about you?
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 04:16 AM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
Keith ,

When terrorist attackers have to resort to using knives in their attacks you can see the benefit of not having semi auto centre fires available to the general public.





It would seem that you have missed an important point. The terrorists didn’t go away when you eliminated your center fire auto guns. They simply changed their MO.
I’m reasonably well enough informed to know that crime, especially violent crime, has not gone down in the U.K. since the massacre in Dunblane. And, that a knife attack is by no means a rare or odd thing in London. Quite the contrary.

If you are content with the way things are, more power to you.

I have my own belief on the many “Gun Free” zones that cropped up in this country over the last thirty years. I believe it was a deliberate, and well understood plan by those who championed it to unleash criminally ill individuals on those rendered completely defenseless by those who supported this legislation, in an attempt to invalidate and eliminate the second amendment to the US constitution. There were those who clearly understood that the mayhem and killing would be directed at the most vulnerable targets by the criminals who would know enough to pick a soft target, in order to take as many innocent lives along with them on their trip to hell.

They knew it, they understood it, and they did it. They are now, and always have been, aligned with the left of center political spectrum in this country.

They have a lot of blood on their hands.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Gregdownunder Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 05:52 AM
As I recall pistol crime went up in the wake of Dunblane, in spite of a total pistol ban.
Maybe that's because the only ones who obeyed the law were the law abiding.
We have now a situation in NZ where appox 80% of the once legit semi autos have not been handed in, and will I suspect possibly turn up on the "grey market" at a later stage, in effect making society less safe that when they were owned by the once law abiding.
Yet even here I still get shooters telling me "its alright Jack I don't own semi autos so I'm all good, doesn't affect me!"
When in truth when their time comes and the antis want their stalking rifles and shotties they will scream of the injustice of it all. Very short sighted.
We have in power a coalition Govt comprising in part of the greens, who, after the Christchurch tragedy made it clear they wanted ALL guns banned, everything.
Luckily some sense prevailed but it made it crystal clear the dangers of a left leaning government.
All because some nutjob Australian decided to come to our shores and commit a heinous crime.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 07:32 PM
In response to Keith writing that he didn’t recall a lot of resistance in the past to anti gunners chipping away at gun ownership here in the UK I posted as
way of explanation that post Dunblane many handgunners had no interest in continuing with pistol target shooting and I was one of those.
The pressure for the ban didn’t come from anti gunners with an agenda but from parents and relatives of the children that had been murdered ,see the Snowdrop campaign, and the general population in the hope that the banning of handguns would decrease the likelihood of another mass school shooting.Those sentiments were acted upon by the right wing conservative government of the time and finalised after the election by the newly elected Labour government. I sympathised with those sentiments and to date 14 years later there has not been any shootings on school premises.
The greatest majority of pistol shooters in Scotland were club target shooters whose weapons weren’t kept for personal protection or in order to oppose a tyrannical government so the mindset in surrendering weapons was different to what you have in the US .
There were of course people who competed in long range shooting, practical pistol and police pistol competitions amongst others who had invested considerable amount of money time and effort in their hobby and were obviously angry that they were to lose their equipment and their hobby. Many reinvested what compensation they were given and took up pistol calibre lever action rifle shooting on the same ranges and a lot moved on to other rifle or shotgun disciplines. I have never spoken to anyone who lost their pistols who expressed the sentiment that the pistols loss would put them at the mercy of a tyrannical government.
As far as I am aware there is no organisation calling for the relaxation of the laws to permit hand gun ownership for general personal protection in Scotland.
We have a country which thankfully has limited access to firearms for personal protection and so the population has no need to arm themselves to level the playing field. I’m not aware of any fear of the government in Scotland it is working well for its people and I sleep easy at night.
I’m sorry if this outlook disturbs any on the double gun forum but it is a truthful account and serves to inform and is not intended to compare your country laws or people ,the post is not intended to antagonise but to indicate that opinions differ.
I don’t consider myself anti gun ,and I didn’t vote to ban hand guns though I am indifferent to their loss I gave mine up willingly because I had no need of them for protection and I had no fear that a tyrannical government was waiting on the sidelines to control the country.
I will post separately to address points raised in responding posts.
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 07:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....The pressure for the ban didn’t come from anti gunners with an agenda but from parents and relatives of the children that had been murdered....

Thanks again for your thoughts, they’re just different. I’d keep in mind that someone who had a political agenda and the ability to create law or regulations were the ones responsible for parading victims in front of you. My opinion is that, I like a story where you decided to hang up the handguns not someone else creating by a sense of guilt in you. I can’t see giving up a kitchen knife, and convincing myself it’s voluntary, just because someone else decided to use it in a criminal way. I think you folks should work on making criminals guilty, instead of working to make law abiding folks feel guilty.

You gave up too easily on your pistols, would you be able to share what restrictions you faced prior to the shooting. Are you safer now than when you were a pistol target shooter?
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 08:05 PM
CraigD I had no hand in the loss of hand guns in Scotland. . I wasn’t interested in continuing with punching holes in paper with a hand gun when it distressed those affected by the Dunblane massacre, on a personal level I found more Walter Mitty characters in the world of pistol shooting and as an ex infantryman didn’t enjoy their company.
I introduced many people to pistol shooting when I was a student at open range days, ran a college clay pigeon club for three years and have helped people to take up wildfowling, game shooting ,stalking and clay shooting using my equipment and cartridges
I agree with you whole heartedly that restricting the opportunities for people to join the ranks of shooters is unfair. For an airgun licence with no possession of a firearms or shotgun certificate the price is £70 if you are to buy a cabinet then the cost will ensure that some will never aspire to enjoy shooting as a hobby as they will not get that first opportunity that would lead on to a shooting life.
If dressed to fit in there is probably no area in Scotland I could not walk in, in Scotland there is no no go zones and there is nowhere I could go where there would be any likelihood of me being shot..
As regards safety about the same, violence is mostly city street fights involving young men invariably drunk . Random violence exists but it is invariably about being in the wrong place at the wrong time Shooting incidents are low but fluctuate as a result of feuding drug dealers or organised crime gangs.
To be issued a firearms certificate usually involved a six month probationary period at a target club then applying for your licence few were rejected then after that if you had access to compete or shoot with any type of firearm then you could apply to have authorisation to obtain that calibre of weapon . Many people had an array of calibres to be possessed covering most areas of target shooting. In contrast for shooting out with a range you need to state a valid reason for each rifle and have permission to use that rifle for the species concerned on private ground so a lot more restrictive. As a consequence of these restrictions I am unable to pass on my rifles to my son unless he was to comply with those same conditions. The system for shotguns is more relaxed by standards here and usually certificates are issued should you express an interest in taking up clay pigeon shooting and have a referee who can vouch for your good character. All in all it’s restrictive and can mean you can’t fully enjoy a variety of shooting experiences casually but need to comply with the conditions surrounding gun ownership.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 08:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch

I don’t consider myself anti gun ,and I didn’t vote to ban hand guns though I am indifferent to their loss I gave mine up willingly because I had no need of them for protection and I had no fear that a tyrannical government was waiting on the sidelines to control the country.
I will post separately to address points raised in responding posts.


And therein lies the problem...

The tactic of divide and conquer works quite well when some gun owners are so ready and willing to give up someone else's guns. And virtually none of those FUDD gun owners here in the U.S. who are willing to give up Ted's handguns, or my semi-autos, or craigd's lead ammunition ever consider themselves to be anti-gun.

I do remember the two mass shootings that you referenced, and I absolutely recall the anti-gun politicians and anti-gun media using those tragedies to push for the resulting gun bans. It happens every time there is a mass shooting anywhere in the world, so it is disingenuous and misleading to defend the anti-gunners, and to make the false claim that they did not demand these bans.

Konor3inch, you say you gave up your handguns willingly, and I believe you for some reason. But if you hadn't been so willing, and you really enjoyed shooting and owning handguns, you would still have been compelled to give them up by the government that you say you do not fear. And when some mentally ill nutcase takes a shotgun or target rifle into a school or public place, and kills a number of people, the precedent is there for the same government that you do not fear to take those firearms from you as well.

You say you don't fear them or consider them to be tyrannical... but if you do not comply, you will be arrested and imprisoned, and they will confiscate and destroy your personal property anyway... whether you like it or not. It matters not that you have been a law abiding and well behaved citizen who served his country. You would be treated as a common criminal. That sounds quite tyrannical to me.

As you said earlier, the die has been cast. I am not antagonized. But I am sorry that you seem unable to comprehend what has been lost to you and your son, and very sorry that you see such a sad situation and actually consider it to be freedom and security.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 08:42 PM
Keith I m sure you will be aware of the mass shooting by Derrick Bird in Cumbria in 2010 ,as you will know he killed twelve people at random driving around Cumbria he used a licensed double barrel 12 bore and a .22 bolt action rifle. As a result of this there were no further restrictions on the possession and use of those types of weapons as they were normally used as intended by those who possessed them.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 08:46 PM
DmColonial,
Google anti gun Scotland ,nothing on google perhaps it’s a conspiracy coincidently living here I don’t see any evidence of it either
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 08:50 PM
Ted Schefelbein if your theory on Gun Free Zones is correct you are living in a country where you need those firearms on the other hand maybe you just need to double line your hat with more tin foil
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 08:53 PM
Conservatives in the US care nothing about the population problem or about the loss of regulation to preserve soil, water, air, or public lands so long as they can get their hands on assault rifles. Mass shootings are the price they're willing to accept in order to pretend they're urban warriors defending against some fantasy threat. That habitat will be destroyed in the quest of short-term profit never appears on their radar. If they prevail, they'll need their AR 15s to defend themselves against one another when the system collapses from ignorance and neglect.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 08:55 PM
Keith the registration of air guns was brought about by urban misuse by delinquents shooting cats dogs swans etc which culminated with the death of a child deliberately shot dead with an air rifle in the Easterhouse district of Glasgow
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 09:07 PM
Gregdownunder.
I saw pictures of the outcome of your ban I note your concern that semi auto rifles not handed in would enter the grey market and contribute to making society less safe I agree with you that it potentially will but what you describe is exactly the situation in America ie unlicensed semi auto centre fire rifles available to all.
If it’s any comfort the roughly estimated tens of thousands of semi automatic five shot shotguns that disappeared when by law they had to be converted to three shot don’t seem to have emerged in criminal hands
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 09:11 PM
Konor3inch, I had not heard about the 2010 shooting by Derrick Bird. Do you honestly believe that if there are more such incidents, that there will be no new push to ban those firearms as well?

Do you seriously think that registering air guns will bring back the child that was murdered, or do anything to keep people from using an air gun to shoot a dog or cat? If you weren't involved in those crimes, why must you pay to register your air gun?

I note that you mentioned that much of the remaining violence in your country is fueled by drugs and alcohol. So tell us, if victims of this violence express fear and distress, should the people of Scotland be forced to give up Scotch Whiskey, wine, and beer? Lots of Walter Mitty types like to drink alcohol.

And I also note that you chose to not respond to my query about what would have happened if you really really liked and enjoyed owning and shooting your handguns, and simply refused to give them up. Do you think that the government which you don't fear or see as tyrannical would be OK with that? Or do you think they would arrest you using whatever means of force was necessary to make you comply, and thus turn a law abiding citizen who served his country into a common criminal? How much prison time do you think your non-tyrannical government would impose upon you?

The non-tyrannical government in Australia gave graphic notice of what they would do. I think the subtle message implied here is that giving up your guns may be better than being raped in a prison shower:

Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 09:21 PM
Keith antigunners didn’t take our handguns government did mostly the right wing conservative governments which were in power at the time of the massacres but also as I wrote earlier the newly elected Labour government under Tony Blair. Carried out in an attempt to minimise the risk of future mass shootings .After Dunblane there has been no mass shootings in Scotland proof that the policy worked.
I am not particularly envious of your ability to punch paper in your back yard with one of your countless handguns it soon becomes boring. I feel sorry though that your ability to do this is possible at the price of all those prematurely dead due to the casual ease that hand guns are available to the general public in the US.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 09:34 PM
Keith back on topic the ban on lead is voluntary as there is no compulsion to follow it, ie if I want to continue to shoot lead shot I can . The aim is to pressurise driven game shooters on commercial shoots killing up to 1000 birds per day to shoot steel or bismuth shot to then allow those birds to be exported to Europe . It will also allow time for cartridge manufacturer’s to develop non plastic biodegradable wads for steel shot and 2 1/2 inch steel cartridges for old British guns . What happens next who knows.
Pheasants are commonly no longer sold to game dealers ,game dealers now commonly charge to pick up the birds, two seasons ago the pick up cost was 30p per bird for the first 100 ,20 p a bird for any above that.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 09:39 PM
No I don’t think there will be a push to ban those classes of firearms as they have a legitimate use for example the latest report on the thriving deer population in Scotland is considering a larger role by the general population in controlling deer numbers ,you can’t do that without a rifle so in effect that is government encouraging more firearms ownership
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 09:42 PM
Looks like you are running out of gas (or hot air) Konor3inch.

Like it or not, anti-gunners took your guns. I really don't care one bit if you label them as conservatives or Labor Party Liberals.

You just tripped yourself up again there when you said there have been no mass shootings since Dunblane in 1996. What about that one you just mentioned in 2010? You should give up your rifles and shotguns to prevent any possibility of future criminal use of those firearms. How do you live with yourself knowing of the casual ease with which a killer might use such destructive and unnecessary objects?

You logic concerning handguns and the people who are killed by irresponsible acts of criminals who use them is ridiculous. How do you sleep at night knowing that you use matches or drive a vehicle, knowing that criminals and terrorists have used those inanimate objects to mow down pedestrians or start fatal arson fires, killing large numbers of people?

How about the millions who die as a result of the consumption of alcohol? Are shooting bad, but killings with knives acceptable? Your so-called voluntary lead shot ban is compulsory for hunting in 5 years. There is nothing voluntary about that at all. You say you are not an anti-gunner, but the circumstantial evidence is piling up. The only inanimate objects that deserve to be banned are the firearms that you find boring. That is very revealing.

And I can't understand why you choose to run away from my question about what your benevolent and non-tyrannical government would have done if you hadn't been a good little sheep, and politely gave up your handguns? I am not particularly envious of anyone who chooses to be a fearful sheep instead of a man, or a subject instead of a citizen.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 09:48 PM

Everything is just ducky under all your new gun control measures:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42749089

Keep your head in the sand.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 09:51 PM
Unfortunately registering of air rifles won’t bring back a child but it will definitely prevent some animals being abused and may avoid further deaths.
I didn’t fail to reply to any of your questions intentionally I have now been writing on the lap top for over three hours.
I find it odd however that you ask questions with obvious answers and believe you are so agenda driven that you have become blinkered in your thinking.
Had anyone refused to surrender a firearm ultimately they would have been arrested and charged with unlawful possession which I think is a mandatory five year sentence probable release in two and a half years
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 09:56 PM
Ted could you do me a favour and get me the Scottish figures.
I can’t be bothered putting up links to the countless mass shootings and murders in the US you’ll be more aware of them than me that’s the price you are paying though for unrestricted firearms ownership, enjoy ,you are paying a high enough price for it
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:02 PM
Ted
there have been no more mass school shootings that’s just ducky by me.

There only ever was one school shooting in Britain we seem to have managed to sort it out a bit of a sacrifice for some but well worth it, don’t you agree ?
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:04 PM
I admit to being agenda driven Konor3inch. My agenda is the preservation of our 2nd Amendment Rights and out Constitutional freedoms.

Please explain how my thinking is "blinkered" when I state obvious facts? Was there indeed another mass shooting after the 1996 Dunblane massacre, or not? Since you have already answered that question, please tell us how you can sleep knowing that such murderous weapons are still on the streets, and in your own selfish possession?

Or do you want us to forget about the 2010 mass shooting spree???

OK, so you have the expensive license for your air gun. Please explain how that prevents you from shooting a dog, cat, or child. There's another question with an obvious answer. The government mandated license can't stop you or anyone else from maliciously using your air gun for criminal purposes. It only makes it easier for the government to round them up when they decide you can't have them anymore. Period.

Thank you for admitting that your government is indeed tyrannical and a forced to be feared, and that simply hanging on to your lawfully acquired handgun which never hurt anyone would have gotten you tossed into prison and ruined your life.

Ted is too kind... merely saying that you have your head in the sand.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:04 PM
Keith no further mass shootings in Scotland we’ve only ever had one
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:06 PM
I’m not labelling anyone that’s the name of the parties involved conservative and labour so no left wing conspiracy for you to allude to
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:11 PM
There has been no decision taken yet on what happens after the voluntary ban you seem prone to making up your information and have difficulty sticking to the subject
I have no problem using any object for the use it was designed for so no I don’t a feel guilty about using a match or driving a car.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:13 PM
You clearly said there were no more after Dunblane. But you also mentioned the one in 2010 where the killer used a shotgun and a .22 rifle.

Using the same logic you use to justify being a compliant sheep and giving up handguns and semi-auto rifles, why aren't you handing in your remaining firearms. How can you sleep at night?

And what about all of the other inanimate objects that killers and terrorists have used to murder people? Millions have died as a result of alcohol consumption, from drunken driving to diseases. Should Scotland ban Scotch Whiskey, wine, and beer? Or do you have to see a bullet hole in a body to have a problem?

It is very apparent that you just don't like certain guns. And there are plenty of people who don't like the guns that you claim to approve of. They fear them and they feel distress knowing you have them. Isn't it time to cut the crap and go the rest of the way. You are already almost there... at least 50% anti-gunner.

I think that's kind of like a woman saying she is just a little bit pregnant.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:18 PM
I said punching paper was boring add taking out of context to your list of habits,
I’m getting the impression that all that matters to you is the possession of firearms as a comfort blanket and that you are someone who has problems living in the world without seeking justification for possessing such weapons.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:29 PM
I'm getting the impression that you are about as anti-gun as anyone who ever posted on this forum. The only justification I need to own and use firearms is my enjoyment, and my Constitutional Right to them.

There is nothing out of context when I accurately mentioned your admission that there was indeed another mass shooting after Dunblane. But you don't wish to give up the same genre of guns used in that killing spree because they are personally owned by you, even though they are every bit as potentially lethal as the handguns and semi-autos that you are happy to see banned.

So then, if you found deer hunting or skeet shooting boring, I guess that would then justify your tryannical government banning those firearms as well.

It appears that your comfort blanket is something we call hypocrisy. Another closet anti-gunner comes out of the closet! At least we know where you stand now.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:35 PM
Keith no more mass shootings in Scotland .
I find all I need to know about you as a man in your postings and suspect your support for the second amendment is a convenience to hide the fact that you are an inadequate who puts your possession of firearms and the retention of the ease to purchase firearms before the safety of the population of your country.
Unfortunately your country is awash with hand guns and there is no going back those in fear arm themselves probably rightly so ,the threat exists so it seems only reasonable to do so.
Our country isn’t awash with hand guns and we are not in the mess that you are in. The government has introduced legislation to restrict ownership and is acting responsibly. We as a population are acting responsibly by accepting those restrictions Whereas you have no other option than to live in a state of paranoid fear even with your hand guns.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:38 PM
Keith regarding avoiding answering points I have tried to reply to your sensible points you have countered very few of mine do you know what a technical knock out is because you’ve just experienced one
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:39 PM
The genre of weapons as you put it are not up for surrender they are used for what they were intended for .
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:43 PM
Spoken like a true anti-gunner Konor3inch. You sound exactly like the most extreme anti-gunners we have. Many of them, like Michael Bloomberg even have armed bodyguards. Others, much like you, actually own firearms, but find ways to justify why they should have them, and other law abiding citizens should be prohibited under penalty of law and threat of imprisonment.

Isn't that right anti-gun hypocrite Konor3inch? Bleat once for yes, and bleat twice for no.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 10:57 PM
You know where I stand because I have stated it clearly your interpretation of that is your concern. Of course you will categorise me as you will .
Hypocrite I don’t think so I think you should read the posts more slowly or thoughtfully.
I have got the measure of you Keith ,highly critical ,agenda driven and desperate to disparage You are unable to stand tall so you desperately try to pull others down with insults . You are clearly not of great character but then I don’t think you are bothered ,for you it’s all about the guns ,your paranoia and your fear all wrapped up in the pretence of support for the second amendment.
Teds idea that the gun free zones were to set people up to be slaughtered so that further gun controls could be pushed through is a cracker . Is that a widely held belief? Do you believe that Keith ?
You guys are just the gift that keeps giving.
Sleep safe remember to check that .45 before you turn in for the night,you never know when you are going to need it.
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 11:07 PM

What the fook is this all aboot?

I wish they’d ban golf. Stupida fooking game.


_______________________
At least I didn’t mention hockey.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 11:13 PM
Insults as usual Keith rather than countering the points I’m sure you are intelligent enough to do so but choose to ignore. As I wrote earlier, perhaps you’re not reading my posts you certainly aren’t countering anything I have written, anyway, ,I am happy to forego the limited pleasure of putting holes in a paper target with a handgun if doing so ensures that no more children are murdered in mass school shootings. So far the foregoing of that enjoyment by myself and others in the shooting community has resulted in no more mass school shootings in Scotland.
In my book that’s a good result. How many people would need to die before you considered handing in your hand guns oops silly question it would make no difference there are countless millions of them left you’re too late that bus left years ago before your handgun industry convinced you that you had to be armed to your teeth to what was it, oh yes oppose a tyrannical government oh and of course pour millions into the industry . Gullible doesn’t even nearly cover it
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 11:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
Keith ,

When terrorist attackers have to resort to using knives in their attacks you can see the benefit of not having semi auto centre fires available to the general public.





It would seem that you have missed an important point. The terrorists didn’t go away when you eliminated your center fire auto guns. They simply changed their MO.
I’m reasonably well enough informed to know that crime, especially violent crime, has not gone down in the U.K. since the massacre in Dunblane. And, that a knife attack is by no means a rare or odd thing in London. Quite the contrary.

If you are content with the way things are, more power to you.

I have my own belief on the many “Gun Free” zones that cropped up in this country over the last thirty years. I believe it was a deliberate, and well understood plan by those who championed it to unleash criminally ill individuals on those rendered completely defenseless by those who supported this legislation, in an attempt to invalidate and eliminate the second amendment to the US constitution. There were those who clearly understood that the mayhem and killing would be directed at the most vulnerable targets by the criminals who would know enough to pick a soft target, in order to take as many innocent lives along with them on their trip to hell.

They knew it, they understood it, and they did it. They are now, and always have been, aligned with the left of center political spectrum in this country.

They have a lot of blood on their hands.

Best,
Ted


I had to read Teds post again to make sure I hadn’t misread so Keith is this view on Gun Free Zones widely held and is it something you too believe ?
I’m honestly starting to feel sorry for you both , it can’t be pleasant either living with that level of paranoia or if you are correct living in a country that would permit this to happen,
Sincerely all the best to both of you differences of opinion are just how things are people have to fight their corner , but more importantly people shouldn’t be living with that level of mistrust or fear it’s not healthy and I would not wish it on anyone.
Konor
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/04/20 11:56 PM
It can’t be very pleasant realizing knife assaults have doubled in the time since 2014 in England.

A little paranoia would seem to be justified.

The widely held view by the criminally insane is to pick the softest target possible, and the left has given them a perfect one.

No mass shootings in police stations.
Best,
Ted
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 12:00 AM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....I am happy to forego the limited pleasure of putting holes in a paper target with a handgun if doing so ensures.....

....In my book that’s a good result. How many people would need to die before you considered handing in your hand guns....

By this logic, how many more people have to die before you give up your automobiles and rely on public transportation? If the government dictates how they will provide transportation, are you sure that would ‘ensure’ anything?

I have never pointed a hand gun at anyone or waved one around to boost my ego, but I have fired many thousands of rounds at game, not just punched paper. I’d bet you would be tickled to hunt a deer with a hand gun. It’s a quite a bit bigger world out there than I think you are imagining.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 12:22 AM
The incidence of knife crimes hundreds of miles away in another country doesn’t cause me any anxiety at all . It is predominantly gang related and as I am not in a London gang that seriously reduces my chances of being stabbed.
I don’t get the point of your last two sentences Ted
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 12:54 AM
Konor, You've grasped the level of discourse the gun issues bring out. Engaging the NRA brain-washed is not a good use of your time. They will not acknowledge an objective realty. They will, however, vote. It will be worth watching what happens here between n ow and November. I hope we have a better result than you folks did.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 01:09 AM
CraigD
That’s a fair point but public transport is just not practical for all transport needs. I can’t catch a bus to my local loch nor be publicly transported at four in the morning to where I flight geese or stalk deer. But I get the implications of your post.
The arguing over firearms ownership between myself and Keith has taken on a life of its own and resulted in a polarisation of opinions expressed.
I have enjoyed shooting my K22 six inch barrel target trigger and hammer but restricted to paper punching it had limited appeal after a couple of years . I did take it out after rabbits on a couple of occasions which was risking my firearms certificate but the worry in getting caught ruined the enjoyment. I have enjoyed using my cousins .45 Wilson Combat Commander his Smith and Wesson 9mms .38 Taurus snub and a Ruger security six 357 and other odds and ends. America is where it is if I lived there I would own a handgun and enjoy it. I visited a range once when it had been taken over by cowboy action shooters that was terrific fun and I can’t think off hand of a way to enjoy target shooting more.
However freedom to enjoy all this comes at a price and it is my opinion that having the restrictions we have on firearms ownership in this country contributes to there being as few deaths as there are each year. I would not like to see uncontrolled access to firearms here .

I am aware of the limitations living in Scotland has on the extent and variety of hunting experiences and envy those who have access to truly wild country to enjoy with access for everyone not just the fortunate or wealthy. So yes I think hunting with a hand gun is something I would enjoy and envy those that are able to harvest deer for the table that way. I get the big world out there perspective and appreciate that the world doesn’t stop at the Scottish border ,my son coached soccer for two summers in Texas and Louisiana and had a ball plenty of shooting that he enjoyed AKs AR 15s uzi pistols people were so keen to have him enjoy himself and he sent pictures over so I could share in it. Life is rarely black and white and sometimes we have to respect that as you say it’s a big world out there and people have different views but they should be able to share those views without feeling the need to convince the listener/ reader to change theirs.
It wouldn’t be much fun if we were all the same would it
Posted By: ksauers1 Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 01:23 AM
“ I have no problem using an object for the use it was designed for”

Are you going to decide about the use of every object?
Are you the use police or maybe the gestopo?

I don’t care what gun anybody uses as long as it’s suitable to the task and legal
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 01:37 AM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
...soccer...


Talk about a a stupid fahcking game.


____________________________
I’m in it to win it like Yzerman.
https://youtu.be/2DDMP-7NhDM
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 02:01 AM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....my son coached soccer for two summers in Texas and Louisiana and had a ball plenty of shooting that he enjoyed AKs AR 15s uzi pistols people were so keen to have him enjoy himself and he sent pictures over so I could share in it....

From my point of view, I don't have any desire to change your mind. I believe you can see that I'm responding to your comments, and I've asked you to consider thoughts, that I think can be minimized but are still reasonable.

I couldn't help but notice this comment that you made. You never mentioned that you feared for your son's life around firarms that you don't like. It doesn't appear that your son fired these arms in self defense, or that he fancied himself a cowboy. It sounds to me like your son met some of the best of folks that are all over the US.

I have no doubt that rm bill, who commented above, might have let your son fire a classic rifle at a range. But don't mistake the frustration of those trying convey a point of view with substance, while bill is not offering one bit of dialog other than how important it is for him to reinforce the divisions between us. rm bill lives in a part of the US that you might visit sometime without preconceived notions, and then decide about the honesty of fear mongering.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 02:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
The incidence of knife crimes hundreds of miles away in another country doesn’t cause me any anxiety at all . It is predominantly gang related and as I am not in a London gang that seriously reduces my chances of being stabbed.
I don’t get the point of your last two sentences Ted


It doesn’t appear you get much.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 02:23 AM
I am going to decide for myself the use I put any object to but if it’s a deer rifle I’ll shoot deer with it if it’s a Skeet or game gun I’ll shoot skeet or game with it . If Ive got a match I’ll light a cigarette if a car I’ll use it to get around what you do with ithese objects is up to you . The statement was in response to the accusation that I should feel guilty in using a Match or car because some knucklehead has used it as a weapon Do you have a problem with that ,because you’re the one sounding like the gestapo
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 02:27 AM
I get that you seem to be delusional and that Keith is wary of stating he believes your crackpot theory on gun free zones that’s about as much as I want to get from you
I notice you don’t aim to clarify ,on rereading do you not understand the point you were trying ,ineffectively ,to make yourself.

Was your point that there are no mass shootings in police stations because there are so many guns there? Scottish police are not routinely armed but I would imagine there are no mass shootings there because people do not have unrestricted access to firearms and no way to purchase an AR15 legally. What do you think?
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 02:35 AM
CraigD I don’t dislike any firearm my discussion isn’t about guns I like or dislike it’s been about the extent people should be allowed unrestricted access to them in Scotland
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 02:42 AM

What time do the pubs close in Scotland?

Go to bed already.


____________________________
Kind of on topic.
https://youtu.be/T0v_NKR8CGw
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 03:04 AM
I seem have failed miserably to convey that the decision a few people made to refrain from fighting a handgun ban here in Scotland after Dunblane was less a vote against handguns and more a vote of solidarity with those bereaved by the massacre and all those negatively affected by it and that the resulting handgun ban and the post Hungerford ban on semi automatic centre fire rifles have so far probably been responsible for the absence of any further attacks on schools

This off topic high jacking of the original lead shot uk thread has developed into personal attacks rather than reasoned debate and cost far too much time . It’s 03.00 am and I’ve work in a few hours so for me I’m out

No intention of ruffling feathers and this was no trolling exercise to irritate just sharing a perspective
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 03:22 AM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
It’s 03.00 am and I’ve work in a few hours so for me I’m out


https://youtu.be/bA9FiL7mz_0


___________________________
No wonder the Romans built that fookin’ wall.
Posted By: ksauers1 Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 03:42 AM
If some knucklehead used a car or a match as a weapon he’s not anymore of a knucklehead than someone who used a gun for an illegal purpose

Shane quote” a gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool, an ax, a shovel or anything else. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that”
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 05:54 AM
I left for awhile Konor3inch, but it was amusing to see how much flailing you have done in the interim.

I actually read every word you posted in this thread. That seems to be a problem, since I noticed your extreme hypocrisy, and that you rely upon the exact same arguments that anti-gunners everywhere use to rationalize banning an inanimate object that is less of an instrument of death than drunk driving of vehicles or medical mistakes. Your energies could be expended more fruitfully, but you are here on a firearms forum espousing bans on classes of guns that you and other anti-gunners just don't like. And at the same time, you refuse to give up your shotguns or rifles when you know that those types of guns were used in a mass shooting in 2010 that you apparently wish you hadn't mentioned.

I understand exactly what Ted meant when he spoke about the gun free zones. He referred to them as soft targets, and was critical of the anti-gun Democrats who fight tooth and nail to keep them that way. There is zero paranoia involved when we here all know that the same anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats who enjoy armed security in the U.S. House and Senate refuse to provide a similar level of protection for our school.

I also took note of your total lack of civility when you rudely insulted him with your double layer tin-foil hat comment.

You can falsely claim that school shootings are a direct result of our handguns and semi-automatic rifles, but that would not explain the absence of school shootings for many decades when gun ownership was so damn easy that we could buy them direct through mail order. Many of us, me included, took guns to school while participating in high school rifle clubs and shooting teams. My high school had an indoor range, and they would loan you a rifle if you didn't have your own. And there were zero school shooting as a result.

I don't think you like that you have outed yourself as both an anti-gunner and as a complete hypocrite. I didn't do that to you, but you want to blame me because I actually read what you have posted here. My handguns and semi-automatics will never harm anyone unless some criminal breaks into my house. Unlike you and other fools and sheep, I have the means and will to end such an event abruptly. I don't see any rational reason to blame the exercise of my Constitutional rights for the actions of criminals who can and do kill people by all manner of methods that do not involve firearms.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 06:47 AM
Sorry Keith I’m out ,you’re going round in circles. Your deliberate false deductions from what I have written and your partial quotes irritate and as I have stated my points I see no sense in arguing. The fact that people and times have changed escapes you we are no longer in the 1950s or 60s any more and we need laws fit for purpose which deal with the mess we find ourselves in,

Scotland has done that by successfully preventing a second mass school shooting by restricting access to centre fire semi automatic rifles and all hand guns do you not agree because that is the crux of the matter and the one point you have persistently ignored so can you reply to that because all I’m hearing is empty rhetoric from an empty deluded guy desperate to portray himself as a patriot yet a patriot who constantly fears the tyranny of his own government. Of course you know better but I see no evidence that your ramblings have won you any converts

You deliberately and consistently fail to address the main thrust of my perspective and seem incapable of seeing any other point of view, Your argument against my point of view just didn’t materialise so I’ll leave you to stew in your own juices until the next person comes along that you can rant at or talk down to. You failed to convince me about anything and sadly there was no point to you ranting so unless you can comment directly on the first sentence of my last paragraph then we are done, you’ll be remembered on this forum as the person you clearly come across as and unfortunately you’ve painted yourself into that corner.
It’s not been a pleasure but I’m pleased you’ve outed yourself with your posts as the ass hat that you are
Posted By: Gregdownunder Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 07:57 AM
Konor3inch,

Sorry, but banning handguns has not saved any schoolchildren.
You missed perhaps the fact handgun crime went up after the ban, the fact no more school massacres have occurred is not due to the ban.
As I understand it, handguns are still pretty readily available in the UK if you know the right (wrong) people, only the good guys handed theirs in.
He could just as easily have used a shotgun, if so would you have happily handed yours in?
Respectfully, I think you are drawing a direct line from the weapon used being the problem rather than the person.
Here in New Zealand, unfortunately we have all been the victims of a deliberate and hateful crime.
However, in the perpetrators manifest, he stated he specifically chose firearms as his weapon of choice as it would cause the maximum amount of social discord, a goal he has unfortunately realized.
Had he instead used a bomb or a truck the result would have still been the same.

The majority of firearms murder in this country is committed with sawn off .22 rifles and shotguns, not handguns, in spite of the fact legitimately owned handguns are not uncommon.

Back in the 80's I remember walking down the main street carrying a rifle to the sports shop, no-one batted an eyelid.
Do that today and people would be screaming and you would find yourself locked up.
Crime with firearms here was greater then than it is now, so what's changed?
Constant bombardment from the media that guns are bad, and an increasing urban drift.

GDU.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 08:45 AM
Poor Konor3inch... is it really necessary to keep falling back on falsehoods? My deductions about you are merely a response to what you have posted here. You don't wish to be labeled as an anti-gunner, but you repeatedly mock us because we don't wish to accept the fact that you think both handguns and semi-auto rifles ought to be banned. Besides me, there have been a good number of shooters from the U.S., Canada, and New Zealand who have confronted your silly anti-gun thoughts in this thread... and one exceeding stupid guy called rocky mtn bill who agrees with you. Of course, Billy supports and votes for extreme anti-gun Democrats. It seems evident just who has painted himself in a corner and who also hasn't done much to win any converts... except for brainless Billy.

My observation of you as a complete hypocrite stems from the fact that you don't seem to feel the same way about your shotguns or rifles, even though it was you that referenced another mass shooting 14 years after Dunblane in which the killer utilized a shotgun and rifle. And if that wasn't enough, you have resorted to many of the exact same arguments that dedicated anti-gunners use to insult and demonize those who are against banning guns... guns that can never in a million years harm a living soul without being misused by some criminal.

There were no partial quotes or going around in circles. There was only what you have posted here. And don't give us your lame crap about the need to kill deer with rifles. Don't feed us your horse shit about how an expensive license for air guns can stop anyone from shooting dogs or cats. You can use a compound bow or crossbow to shoot deer until some nut kills people with one, and your tyrannical government bans those as well.

Speaking of tyrannical governments, and making deliberate false deductions, I'd like you to show us exactly where I "portray myself as a patriot yet a patriot who constantly fears the tyranny of his own government." Right now, I'm pretty secure knowing that my President Donald Trump, our Republican controlled Senate, and our pro-2nd Amendment majority on the Supreme Court have our backs covered. Unlike you, I don't have to give up my handguns or semi-autos under penalty of law and threat of a mandatory 5 year prison sentence. I don't have to pretend that I was bored and couldn't stand being surrounded by Walter Mitty's. And I really don't wish to see your point of view because that would involve giving up my lawfully purchased and Constitutionally protected personal property, and becoming a sheep.

One final comment on your repeated idiotic argument that "Scotland has successfully prevented a second school shooting by restricting access to centre fire semi automatic rifles and all hand guns." We could just as easily say that since Sept. 11, 2001 when terrorists killed nearly 3000 people by using box cutters to hijack jet airplanes and used them as weapons of mass destruction, there have been no other such incidents... and ta-da!!... that was accomplished without banning jet airplanes. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that anti-gun sheep like you have the intelligence to digest that analogy.

Little wonder that our village idiot rocky mtn bill sees you as a kindred spirit. You wouldn't happen to have any relatives in Nova Scotia, would you???...
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 01:42 PM
Hi Keith,
I expect your carer will be round soon to get you up and fix your meds so I thought I’d drop you a post careful not to double dose though because I reckon your last post was showing signs of you losing your grip on reality. Thinking on I reckon that should the worst happen and you were about while I was a potential casualty in a mass shooting you would jump in and save me and the day so remember to keep those magazines fully charged with one up the spout I don’t want you letting me down . However I’m not up for increasing the chances of this happening by supporting any legislation here in Scotland to hand out ,once the cash has changed hands, AR15s and semi auto pistols to every Tom Dick and Mohammed I think that would be a bad idea.


You omitted to mention CraigDs ( how predictable ) unease in having once legal semi auto rifles appear on the “grey market “, I think that means unregistered, in New Zealand and that’s what you actually support so if you were to take the time to read then most importantly understand what people are writing you might be a little closer to realising you don’t have as much support as you think for your blinkered outlook.


Of course it’s others who are suffering the consequences of your laissez faire ,that’s French Keith, attitude to gun ownership ,all so you can protect your fellow citizens from a tyrannical government that doesn’t exist. I’d say that’s a bad trade.


Your rants cause me to imagine some crazy old uncle who has plenty of strong opinions but nothing really to back them up and allows all those crazy thoughts to fester in what is probably a brain well past it’s mediocre best. So I think your name should be

UNCLE FESTER.

It’s been entertaining Fester and much as I enjoy our little conversations I’m finding you much like paper punching, just a trifle boring so no more sparring ,you’re too much of a light weight and you ve only got the one punch so not much of an opponent. Stay cheery and remember not everyone is after your guns.

Say hello to Ted for me I think his views are pretty close to yours but I reckon he is the gentleman you will never be.


Your analogy with the plane is pretty poor by the way, simply because they restrict those flying them I think you need a special licence does that ring any bells Fester unless you hijack one there is no legally obtainable 747s for any would be terrorists get my drift. KO
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 03:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
Hi Keith,
I expect your carer will be round soon to get you up and fix your meds so I thought I’d drop you a post careful not to double dose though because I reckon your last post was showing signs of you losing your grip on reality. Thinking on I reckon that should the worst happen and you were about while I was a potential casualty in a mass shooting you would jump in and save me and the day so remember to keep those magazines fully charged with one up the spout I don’t want you letting me down . However I’m not up for increasing the chances of this happening by supporting any legislation here in Scotland to hand out ,once the cash has changed hands, AR15s and semi auto pistols to every Tom Dick and Mohammed I think that would be a bad idea.


You omitted to mention CraigDs ( how predictable ) unease in having once legal semi auto rifles appear on the “grey market “, I think that means unregistered, in New Zealand and that’s what you actually support so if you were to take the time to read then most importantly understand what people are writing you might be a little closer to realising you don’t have as much support as you think for your blinkered outlook.


Of course it’s others who are suffering the consequences of your laissez faire ,that’s French Keith, attitude to gun ownership ,all so you can protect your fellow citizens from a tyrannical government that doesn’t exist. I’d say that’s a bad trade.


Your rants cause me to imagine some crazy old uncle who has plenty of strong opinions but nothing really to back them up and allows all those crazy thoughts to fester in what is probably a brain well past it’s mediocre best. So I think your name should be

UNCLE FESTER.

It’s been entertaining Fester and much as I enjoy our little conversations I’m finding you much like paper punching, just a trifle boring so no more sparring ,you’re too much of a light weight and you ve only got the one punch so not much of an opponent. Stay cheery and remember not everyone is after your guns.

Say hello to Ted for me I think his views are pretty close to yours but I reckon he is the gentleman you will never be.


From several posts previous to the above quote ..........

Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
Sorry Keith I’m out


Just for the record, what does "I'm out" mean in Scotland?

SRH
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 03:21 PM
There’s nothing like free choice Stan we’ve got that here in Scotland too
Posted By: Colonial Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 03:25 PM
Outed, maybe.

Well, "Konor", your delve into taking it more "personal" seems very reminiscent of some others here.
Perhaps to the point of wondering if you are a "poseur" (that's French) and a troll.
Since we are now at a personal level, just an idle question.
Is the "3inch" your depth of vision, or something else.....?
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 04:26 PM
Hi DmColonial no afraid I’m not a poseur I don’t behave affectedly to impress others just putting across a perspective to counter the drivel that is a thinly masked political diatribe by Uncle Fester every time a thread is started that involves a double gun interest .
It was purely for my own satisfaction to hold good old Uncle Fester to account for all the threads he has ruined with his constant moaning whinging and boring to the nth degree political spin on the world and also for his continual attacks on several members of the forum .
Just really dishing out to him some of the medicine he has dished out to others ad nauseum. It’s a one off so I won’t be chasing him around the threads as he constantly does to others with his predictable quotes and diatribes.

That’s it in a nutshell really ,sorry if the process was as equally painful to some as I have found reading Uncle Festers personal assassinations of others. I’m just an average guy not looking to impress just to pay back for my own personal satisfaction

Oh and the three inch that’s mostly for the chamber of my favourite wildfowling gun ,a Cogswell an Harrison Konor model made in 1957 by I think the oldest London gun making firm still in business but it’s also a bit of fun . I’m not that insecure fortunately so I don’t worry what others may think it applies to.

As they say in my old Scottish Regiment “ Nemo me impune lacessit”
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 05:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
There’s nothing like free choice Stan we’ve got that here in Scotland too


Agreed, Konor, even at the expense of your credibility.

Well done, ?

SRH
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 05:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch

As they say in my old Scottish Regiment “ Nemo me impune lacessit”


Fancy!

Ours was...Just drop a JDAM on the MF’ers.


___________________________
Good Scotch-Canadian lad.
https://youtu.be/EZxwfMqE-0U
6:05 what a wrister!
7:40 poor Getzlaf...lol
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 05:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
Sorry Keith I’m out


I was quite sure you were not "out" Konor3inch. DmColonial's description of "outed" is much more accurate though.

I did indeed note craigd's concern about the so-called gray market for semi-autos in New Zealand. And I am quite certain that he wasn't lamenting the idea that they were not rounded up by a tyrannical government due to some mandatory licensing or registration scheme. I know enough about craigd to know that he confronts every anti-gun troll that ever makes the mistake of supporting registration or other infringements upon our 2nd Amendment Rights. Please don't confuse craigd with a complete idiot like rocky mtn bill.

We know that you don't like handguns or semi-autos, and that you are all too ready to act like a spineless sheep and give up the rights and property of others in order to preserve what you personally approve of. You still refuse to explain how you can sleep at night knowing that the guns you approve of were the same as the guns that murdered people in another mass killing spree 14 years after Dunblane. You mentioned lighting a cigarette with the same matches that could be used to start an arson fire earlier. Plenty of people think that your tobacco products should be banned by governments for the good of society. I personally think you should be able to make your own choice in such matters, so long as you don't impose on others.

I saw your comment about giving handguns and semi-autos to "every Tom, Dick, and Mohammed..." No doubt rocky mtn bill and Larry Clown will be along shortly to confront you on your racist profiling Muslim bashing efforts. Actually, I'm sure that you noticed that my attacks on certain members of this forum are rooted in their support for the same anti-gun infringements that you have finally revealed to us. Your posts here only serve to confirm what I have been saying all along about the sheer foolishness of inviting and welcoming guys like you into a Big Tent, while you are all religiously supporting those who work relentlessly to erode and eventually end our gun ownership rights.
Tthe 9-11 terrorists were able to legally get flying lessons and pilot's licenses. If you can afford it, there is no restriction saying that a private citizen cannot buy a 747 or other large jet. Donald Trump owns one, and John Travolta owns one and also pilots one. There are private citizens who legally own and fly old military fighter jets. There was and still is the concern that terrorists could use smaller planes such as crop dusters to spread chemical or bio-weapons. But they have not been banned. Perhaps it is different under your tyrannical government. As for registration, well, so are cars, trucks, and busses. None of those vehicles is Constitutionally protected, and none is absolutely necessary. My Amish Dutch neighbors do fine without them.

By the way dimwit, I do not believe that everyone is out to get my guns. I am only concerned about the ones who actually come right out and tell us that they want more laws, more registration, more Unconstitutional infringements, more anti-gun Judges and Supreme Court Justices, and even bans and confiscations. Unfortunately, that encompasses most all Liberal Left Democrats.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 06:28 PM
Hi Uncle Fester you just don’t get it. Do you read anything critically or are you just too intent on personal attack to comprehend .

I don’t smoke. I have a good friend called Mohammed ,a Muslim from Somalia. and this is a double gun forum not a second amendment forum .


You’re a tedious person who is probably responsible for driving many readers of this forum away I won’t be driven away but I wont be reading any more of your drivel it’s really quite draining ,again apologies to all reasonable forum members for drawing this out,

Bye bye Uncle Fester I think you are doomed to continually repeat the same mistakes that you have been making for years some people just never learn.

I found it quite tiring just for a few days posting predominantly negative posts so can’t imagine how you feel I suppose your bitterness and anger keeps you going I’m afraid I do not have those reserves.





Posted By: ksauers1 Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 06:51 PM
The rise of school shootings has a direct correlation to the rise of liberalism . Liberal ideology results in immorality, a constant attack on religion, except islam if course, and a godless society
Posted By: Colonial Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 07:09 PM
Use PUNCTUATION fer gawd sakes.
Reading this drivel is nearly impossible.
Dinya ne'er get to skool?

Of course, since you are "out" of here, and were only doing this discourse for your own entitled satisfaction, as you said,there will be no reply!
Alas.


Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
Hi Uncle Fester you just don’t get it. Do you read anything critically or are you just too intent on personal attack to comprehend .

I don’t smoke. I have a good friend called Mohammed ,a Muslim from Somalia. and this is a double gun forum not a second amendment forum .


You’re a tedious person who is probably responsible for driving many readers of this forum away I won’t be driven away but I wont be reading any more of your drivel it’s really quite draining ,again apologies to all reasonable forum members for drawing this out,

Bye bye Uncle Fester I think you are doomed to continually repeat the same mistakes that you have been making for years some people just never learn.

I found it quite tiring just for a few days posting predominantly negative posts so can’t imagine how you feel I suppose your bitterness and anger keeps you going I’m afraid I do not have those reserves.





Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 07:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
I seem have failed miserably to convey that the decision a few people made to refrain from fighting a handgun ban here in Scotland after Dunblane was less a vote against handguns and more a vote of solidarity with those bereaved....

Sorry that my discussion with you somehow involved a gray market. In reading your comments, there are some groups of bereaved that don’t seem to justify a policy change, and there are examples like above that become prioritized.

Do you think a new restrictive law of any sort should be based on bereavement, and who chooses whose bereavement is more important than another’s? What you folks do in Scotland is fine with me, for the purposes of this discussion, is any of your bereavement ever given enough importance to change laws, or is it a one way street?
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/05/20 09:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
Hi Uncle Fester you just don’t get it. Do you read anything critically or are you just too intent on personal attack to comprehend .

I don’t smoke. I have a good friend called Mohammed ,a Muslim from Somalia. and this is a double gun forum not a second amendment forum .


Poor dumb Konor3inch... so sorry to see you go... again. I told you that I read and comprehended every word you posted... even the virtually incoherent stuff where you forgot how to spell and use punctuation. Please don't be so angry, just because you are too stupid to recall what you posted a whole day ago...

Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
If Ive got a match I’ll light a cigarette if a car I’ll use it to get around what you do with ithese objects is up to you


But really, I don't care if you smoke or not. And I'm sure your good buddy Mohammed would not be offended by your obvious wish to keep guns away from Muslims. The issue is that you are here on a firearms enthusiasts website preaching your anti-gun dogma... And then hypocritically lecturing me that this is a double gun forum, and not a 2nd Amendment forum.

You're a real peach. From your defective memory and moronic thought processes, to your ability to sling the mud and personal insults that you claim to dislike. Few Libtards have been so transparent and so utterly ignorant so quickly here. This is like having nca225 on steroids.

This has been great fun. I really enjoy flushing our anti-gun Liberals and revealing their hypocrisy and the ways they help anti-gun politicians to erode our gun rights. Oh, excuse me, it's all about solidarity and sympathy... enforced by threat of imprisonment by your tyrannical government. Just bleat like a sheep if you agree. Speaking of hypocrisy, Gladys Kravitz and a few of her friends should be along any second now to call you a coward for hiding behind a screen name.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 03:39 AM
Well, it has been a very productive last few days here...

I got Konor3inch to finally come out of the closet and show us how determined he is to come here and undermine our Gun Rights. He wouldn't come back here, but he did return with a vengeance in this Thread that was unfortunately just locked. Check out his lunacy in the last couple pages here:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=566519&page=1

All Konor3inch wants us to do is to bend over like he did in Scotland, be good little sheep, and give up all of our handguns and semi-auto rifles.

He is seriously suggesting that tens of millions of law abiding U.S. citizens should give away their rights to ownership of perhaps 100 million or more firearms. He thinks that we all should take it on the chin and give up a large portion of our 2nd Amendment Rights because of the actions of a very small number of criminals who misuse firearms.

This is a good time to point out how terrible the anti-gun Democrats thought it was for Michael Bloomberg to pass the "Stop and Frisk Laws" when he was Mayor of New York City. Stop and Frisk was incredibly successful, and resulted in a huge reduction in violent crime and murder. The Cops and Bloomberg knew exactly that the problem isn't middle aged white guys who want to hunt and protect their families and teach their kids and grandkids to shoot. They knew it was the gang-bangers and career criminals that were repeatedly arrested, and released or paroled to go out and engage in more violent crimes.
Stop and Frisk took them and their guns off the streets.

Anti-gun Democrats screamed bloody murder about this. They were a lot more concerned about violating the rights of violent career criminals and gang-bangers than they are about taking away your guns and your 2nd Amendment Constitutional Rights.

This is the mentality of the politicians that rocky mtn bill and other FUDD's and Trolls here support. These people like Konor3inch and rocky mtn bill are mentally sick, and it is high time that we finally confront them.

We will never change them with facts, reason, or dialog. But we should always remind them that they are not our friends. Or we can just let them continue to undermine us like termites eating away your house until it is destroyed. Time to wake up and put a stop to this gentlemen!

Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 07:20 AM
Hi Uncle Fester I don’t think you can take any credit for getting me to come out of the closet I simply stated my views which you find hard to accept as it upsets you to think that someone should wish to deprive you of your assault weapons .

The problem doesn’t lie with the average guy perhaps ex military who buys an AR or similar weapon uses it responsibly and gets a lot of enjoyment in its possession who you use as your example to justify your own acquisition of Assault weapons.

The problem lies partly with the people you describe who have turned parts of America into No Go areas not just for strangers but for people who live a block away who don’t happen to be in the same gang. This situation has been brought about by as you say the ease in obtaining assault weapons.

The second problem is those unfortunates who either due to money worries or any of a million unfortunate circumstances experience mental breakdown and with little in the way of a support system decide to run amok. Again the easy access to Assault weapons turns a problem into a catastrophe.

The third problem is extreme characters like yourself who take the 2nd amendment written in all good faith to protect the people of America from tyranny and use it as an excuse to stockpile weapons and by fighting against measures to control the availability of these Assault weapons are indirectly partially responsible for the toll Assault weapons take on the general population. I would define that stance as Anti American as I don’t think you can get any more Anti American than fighting responsible gun laws that would protect the population. And I’m not talking hunting accidents or range accidents here.

The fourth problem is the paranoia created by the ready availability of Assault weapons leading to the formation of groups for the purpose of protecting themselves a phenomena that would not occur if people felt safe in their own country.

And all this solely because you selfishly want to hold on to as many weapons as you can afford to buy.

It’s a cycle that feeds itself and there is no putting the genie back in the bottle. My main point is that the genie is not out of the bottle in Scotland and I don’t want to go down the road you are travelling on ,neither do I want my son or the generations to come to inherit those problems just because I want to experience owning Assault weapons.

That’s the situation Keith and personal attacks on people holding these views does not counter these arguments .

If you came to Scotland you would have no need for your personal protection weapons you would just have to relax and live do you think you could do that here without the psychological need to stockpile weapons ?

Perhaps you would be keen to start the cycle of violence here by endorsing the availability of Assault weapons for all and sundry . Here we consider that anti social so stock piling of assault weapons would see you safely locked up out of harms way and labelled as the dangerous nut job that you are,
Its just time for you to wake up Uncle Fester and start acting responsibly not selfishly

Lonesome roads you’re a bit of a cartoon character mixed in with a bit of keyboard warrior I don’t think you’d fit in over here and without your weapons comfort blanket would probably deteriorate fast. Perhaps you’d embrace the normal life us Scots enjoy and take for granted though ,there may be hope for you yet
Sorry Fester you’re beyond help.



Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 08:44 AM
If there was a referendum here in Scotland which simply asked

Would you vote to deregulate firearms ownership yes or no I reckon over 90% would vote no.

So I’m not a lone voice in the wilderness here I’m speaking for all those in Scotland who would vote no. So Troll alert ,I don’t think so just the voice of a bit of common sense in response to Uncle Festers view that we didn’t fight hard enough to hold on to our hand guns post Dunblane.

I have never heard anyone say here in Scotland it’s about time we were given more access to firearms it just isn’t an issue.

America is where it is . We are where we are . I don’t want our country to share the problems your country suffers due to unrestricted gun ownership. It’s as simple as that
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 01:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch

Lonesome roads you’re a bit of a cartoon character mixed in with a bit of keyboard warrior I don’t think you’d fit in over here and without your weapons comfort blanket would probably deteriorate fast. Perhaps you’d embrace the normal life us Scots enjoy and take for granted though ,there may be hope for you yet


Nemo me impune lacessit!


_________________________
Maybe I’ll try Nova Scotia?
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 01:25 PM
The only thing worse than being a sheep Konor3inch, is being a sheep without brains.

I did get you to come out of your closet and reveal yourself as an anti-gun Troll. You registered as a member of this site in 2013, but only just began your anti-gun ranting. And you told us that it was me that prompted you to respond in this manner.

You also shot down your own argument yesterday in the other now locked thread. I kept asking you about the sheer hypocrisy of selfishly keeping your shotguns and rifles after a mentally ill nut used that type of guns to go on his 2010 mass killing spree.

You came back with the idiotic argument that you would not be willing to give up your guns, and that your example was to prove that your government wasn't after those guns.

Well, very good... except for the fact that you also defended your fear of your tyrannical government by telling us that it wasn't fear of prison or the government that made you comply with the handgun and semi-automatic bans. Rather, it was sympathy and solidarity with the families of the poor dead victims of the shooter.

Obviously, your solidarity and sympathies do not extend to the victims of those killed by the genre of guns that you personally like. You anti-gunners always preach the safety aspect, and the public good. You often rationalize that law abiding citizens should be punished for the actions of a few... "if it only saves one life." But here we see that you only care about yourself and your own selfish interests.

There are other guys here from Scotland and the U.K., but you are the only one who is here telling us that you are happy to be as a sheep who only really gave up his pistol because he was afraid of his government. It's right here, in your own words and deeds. We hear your bleats, and see you tripping over your own sheep tongue.
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 02:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....I don’t want our country to share the problems your country suffers due to unrestricted gun ownership. It’s as simple as that

It had to a bunch of sleepless nights when your own son was forced against his will into such a terrible place to do a little coaching? Though it is a common theme for you, there are restrictions in the US. Just because you are able to repeat it, doesn't make it true does it? Unrestricted specifically means illegal. Discussions about my perception of what you folks face in Scotland have to do with law abiding citizens, and I'm not making any assumptions that you would have criminal tendencies if some day you could punch paper with a handgun again.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 02:57 PM
Lonesome yawn

Uncle Fester you are spending your time putting words into my mouth then arguing against them any non agenda driven person can see that. I am quite happy that what I have written accurately portrays my point of view .

It seems you are not up for a debate or willing to accept that not everyone perhaps not anyone thinks like you. Your endless rant and diatribe of insults makes me think you may either be mentally ill or suffering from some sort of senile dementia, I suspect the latter and hope you are able to avail yourself of some sort of treatment before you go crackers and end up as a headline in some mass shooting.

Anyway just so you are clear I fish for trout on the loch and salmon in the rivers, shoot wildfowl inland and on the foreshore, shoot pheasants in a driven game syndicate ,stalk deer on a friends farm ,shoot rabbits with a .22 and two British air rifles.

I have no inclination to support the possession of assault rifles or hand guns in this country and no one who possesses assault rifles can count on my support to retain them especially you Fester because I don’t think you would be safe in charge of a water pistol.

You regularly castigate those that do not support your stance as FUDDS but it should be fieldsportsmen making it clear to you that they do not support the unhealthy possession of Assault weapons to bolster inadequate personalities and be telling you to take a hike. I don’t think you are representative of shooters in America thank God but that you and your three or four barely literate buddies on this forum represent a small core of very unstable characters who are probably ill suited to possess any kind of weapons. Personally I think you Fester should be restricted to plastic cutlery.

Is all that clear enough, have a good time distorting it but I think on balance most people see you for the fool you are and your compatriots as even bigger fools for being taken in by such a fraud

Uncle Fester the protector of all from tyranny , I don’t think so you are just some inadequate old irrelevant geezer ,fixated on internet battling and hiding behind a computer screen . Most men would have no time for you at all you’re too much of a paranoid dishonest twister becoming less relevant as you age and become increasingly angry and bitter
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 03:17 PM
CraigD are you dyslexic your last post made no sense at all
Unrestricted specifically means illegal ?????
It had to a bunch of sleepless nights ??????
Forced against his will into such a terrible place ???????
Though it is a common theme for you ???????

CraigD are you just randomly typing words into the computer?

Between the lot of you you can’t string a cohesive argument together.
You neither address the point nor contribute anything worthwhile

You’re life’s losers desperately trying to be right and unwilling to accept a contrary opinion, you would be incapable of winning any argument even if you were right that’s how stupid you are. The sad thing is you just don’t see it.
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 03:28 PM
Ouch, sorry about that Konor. I get that all the time.
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 03:35 PM
Look on the bright side, craigd.
At least you’re not a soccer coach. Are you?


__________________________
If you can’t do, coach. If you can’t coach, coach soccer.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 03:38 PM
I guess you do Craig D but not to worry you’ve got Uncle Fester looking after you so you don’t need an opinion
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 03:41 PM
Lonesome you’re a bit beige , a bit blah a bit lacking in imagination but never mind like CraigD you’ve also got Uncle Fester to look after you.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 03:45 PM
Who’s looking after the fragile Uncle Fester though I don’t imagine for a second he’s capable of that himself surely some support worker is keeping him fed and watered ,changing his nappy and cleaning down his soiled bedding,or is that where you lonesome roads and CraigD come in. I can’t see either of you holding down a regular job.
Posted By: SKB Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 03:46 PM
Don't mind LR, he gets this way when he is not listening to enough bluegrass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU19dWpeWTg
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 03:56 PM
Thanks SKB that link was the only positive aspect of this thread .
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 03:56 PM
Originally Posted By: SKB
Don't mind LR, he gets this way when he is not listening to enough bluegrass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU19dWpeWTg



___________________________
https://youtu.be/vaDmLi9Qg3M
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 04:00 PM
CraigD , lonesome roads you’re not the sharpest tools in the box ,are you taking a bit of time out to work out what to say next. Maybe a conference call with Uncle Fester would help
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 04:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
CraigD , lonesome roads you’re not the sharpest tools in the box ,are you taking a bit of time out to work out what to say next. Maybe a conference call with Uncle Fester would help


https://youtu.be/vaDmLi9Qg3M


__________________________
https://youtu.be/7t6LCLcLFg8
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 04:13 PM
No beyond that I think Uncle Fester has cracked so how will you and CraigD cope not well I’d imagine .
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 04:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
No beyond that I think Uncle Fester has cracked so how will you and CraigD cope not well I’d imagine .


https://youtu.be/vaDmLi9Qg3M


___________________________
https://youtu.be/W6vDzf-wSbk
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 04:48 PM
Konor3inch, if you were mentally capable of comprehending anything at all, you might have noticed that you have been opposed in your idiotic thoughts by a lot of guys besides me.

We've heard from craigd, and Ted, Stan, Miller, Gregdownunder, lonesome, Der Ami, DmColonial, Geo, and others.

None of them agree with you. None of them support your anti-gun position or dogma. None of them think that I am mentally insane simply because I do not accept the thought of blaming and punishing law abiding citizens while liberal Democrats fight tooth and nail to keep violent career criminals out on the streets.

The only support you received in this thread, or the one that was locked yesterday, came from another complete idiot called rocky mtn bill. Billy is just as fixated upon being a brainless sheep and a FUDD as you. Yet in your demented world view, you see me in the minority here..

Oh, SKB likes to try to disrupt any conversation about gun rights with diversions and links to bluegrass music videos. But he is also a gunsmith who has posted data from known anti-gunners like Philip Alpers and GunPolicy.org.

And by the way... would you care to revisit your preaching that this is a double gun forum? If you had any brains or integrity at all, you might understand that would include not posting your anti-gun thoughts or Stevie's bluegrass music links.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 04:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
No beyond that I think Uncle Fester has cracked so how will you and CraigD cope not well I’d imagine .


And you post this totally incoherent run-on sentence, devoid of simple punctuation, and have the gall to confront craigd?

Just what sort of drugs are you using?
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 05:08 PM
If the absence of a few apostrophes made it incoherent to you that’s a measure of your feeble mind .
I’m not interested in any support Fester I have my own opinion and you know what that is.
Speaking of brainless did you make any sense of CraigDs post ? At all ?
Like most idiots you are fixated on others intelligence ,the need to dominate is high in you but the potential to achieve that is very low I didn’t post any blue grass music links Fester your mind is playing tricks on you.

What sort of drugs are you not on that you should be Fester. Something to calm that itchy trigger finger would be a good idea.Have you checked your closet maybe your carer has taken away all your firearms for everyone’s safety and left you with nothing to save America with. I’ve got a cap gun here I can send you over as a safe comforter if you want.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 05:25 PM
I never said that you posted any bluegrass music links. I was merely observing that your platitudes concerning posting content unrelated to double guns was predictably hypocritical.

I did understand craigd's post. He frequently uses a style of subtle sarcasm that really dumb guys like you and Billy have trouble grasping. He was addressing the rather disturbing thought that you would feel comfortable about permitting your child to travel to such a deadly dangerous place as the Wild West U.S. of A., and handle such deadly ordnance.

I'll ask him to dumb things down for you, but he would have to be brain dead to get down to your level.

You did not miss any apostrophes, but it now appears that you do not know the difference between an apostrophe and a comma. No surprise there brainchild.

I do note that you quickly ran away from your observation that the majority here are in agreement with you. Boy, talk about the silent majority... And invisible too! Then there's that little problem with the idea that you should keep weapons that have caused death, destruction, sadness, and distress. Don't you think a righteous anti-gun Troll like you should lead by example, and give up your shotgun and rifle? You could continue to fish, and take up bird-watching. You could trap those rabbits instead of cruelly shooting them. Have you no shame or no sympathy for the PETA people?

What a cowardly ignoramus you are. Run Konor run! Hurry up and change the subject, and you might fool rocky mtn bill.
Posted By: Buzz Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 06:00 PM
I’ve read most of the posts here. One thing that would really bother me were if I were the least bit concerned, at all that my country could some day be invaded, I would think it best if the citizens were to be armed. Think France in WWII. England has the USA as an ally and watching their backs, so maybe that sort of sentiment is of no concern to them? One never knows what the future has to hold.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 06:12 PM
Unrestricted specifically means illegal
Unrestricted means not limited or restricted
Can you pick the correct sentence Fester comma CraigD can’t comma maybe he’s just being subtle. Subtle as a box of frogs

Im not anti gun Fester , I’m pro gun just anti Walter Mittey and anti assault rifle and handgun in this country because I don’t want my country to be in the mess regarding firearms that yours is in.So much so that you need to arm yourself with military weapons.

I don’t expect my views to be popular on an American gun forum but there again your views are regarded in this country as the ramblings of an inadequate.

No of course I shouldn’t give any of my guns up , I use them for a legitimate purpose, the one they were designed for .I don’t keep them in a closet “ just in case “

What do you think the result of a Scottish referendum would be if we voted on whether we should allow no restrictions on firearms ownership here ?

I’ve shot game and rabbits all my life so I don’t intend stopping now and definitely not at the request of a sad old man thinking he will save America from tyranny by selfishly accumulating military weapons. I’d question your ability to use them proficiently to be honest Fester . In fact I’d question your ability to run Fester run your probably some grossly overweight McDonalds fed munchkin restricted to an armchair and his computer to while away the hours.
Maybe you should get out after a few rabbits with your AR and .45 .
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 06:21 PM
Buzz I get your reasoning and it’s a fair point, but I just think the disadvantages of having assault rifles in public ownership outweighs the possibility of requiring them should we be invaded. Supposedly that’s why we have trident submarines berthed in Faslane to discourage those who would consider invading.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 06:26 PM
Originally Posted By: craigd
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....I don’t want our country to share the problems your country suffers due to unrestricted gun ownership. It’s as simple as that

It had to a bunch of sleepless nights when your own son was forced against his will into such a terrible place to do a little coaching? Though it is a common theme for you, there are restrictions in the US. Just because you are able to repeat it, doesn't make it true does it? Unrestricted specifically means illegal. Discussions about my perception of what you folks face in Scotland have to do with law abiding citizens, and I'm not making any assumptions that you would have criminal tendencies if some day you could punch paper with a handgun again.

Absolutely unintelligible Fester or subtle sarcasm ? I’m opting for the former , perhaps you could interpret . CraigD is English your second language as what you write is reminiscent of pigeon English.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 06:39 PM
So tell us Konor3inch, just where do you get the idea that I stockpile military style firearms, and simply store them in some closet out of paranoia?

I use my guns for perfectly legitimate purposes. I hunt. I shoot targets. I collect Lefever double shotguns which have many interesting variations, but are certainly not assault weapons. If you really knew anything about me, you'd know that much of my hunting is done with a flintlock. However, I am even ready to quickly put an end to any violent criminals that might make the mistake of attacking my residence and my family. What you own and shoot sounds boring to me. Variety is the spice of life, but you are not trusted by your government. Too bad,

I do not own an AR-15 or AK 47. I have a Russian and an Albanian SKS, but just two weeks ago, added a Chinese SKS because it was offered to me so cheap that it will be a good investment if some Democrat like Obama ever threatens our rights and causes extreme demand and price increases again. Those few semi-automatics aren't bothering anyone except anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats and FUDD's like you.

My guns are posing no more risk to the public than your guns. If anything, I am better prepared to stop a thief from stealing my guns, and using them for nefarious purposes.

But still, you make lame excuses for keeping what you enjoy, and sacrificing hundreds of millions of perfectly legal guns legitimately owned by millions of perfectly law abiding citizens.

I might feel somewhat differently if liberal anti-gunners had exhausted every means of keeping the bad guys off the streets. But you and I know the exact opposite it true. You won't go near my observations about the "Stop and Frisk" laws that all of the Democrat Presidential candidates criticized Michael Bloomberg for enacting. Why on earth would any sane or intelligent person support restricting the Constitutional rights of law abiding citizens, when the rational and much more effective alternative would be to restrict the rights of known criminals and those most likely to commit crimes with guns?

You obviously don't have any answers for this. It is far simpler for a simpleton like you to preach your anti-gun dogma than it is to actually think. Of course, we shouldn't expect a sheep like you to think.

Tell us some more that you are not anti-gun. You are delusional enough to have convinced yourself. Not one of the guys who have confronted you believe you. Only the idiot rocky mtn bill thinks your ideas are sensible and rational. So why then, do you keep harping on something craigd posted that you don't understand?

I'll betcha craigd knows the difference between an apostrophe and a comma. But please, keep flailing and tap dancing away from the things you don't have the brains to explain.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 08:29 PM
You started off there just like a normal guy for the first four paragraphs but you just couldn’t sustain it Fester.

I noticed you didn’t attempt to interpret verbatim CraigDs unintelligible thread,I don’t blame you but your acceptance of his post yet the pedantry on the lack of commas in mine makes me think you are one of those guys who suck up to their friends just in case they lose them . Maybe indicating a lack of security that your multiple sks rifles help to overcome.

Fortunately small time crooks here have limited access to firearms or probably more accurately access to ammunition. Handguns are the realm of organised crime and are the tools of their trade ,not something I have to worry about .
What would be more of a concern would be an assault rifle owning inadequate running amok but our government has sorted that out for us.
As there is little desire to own or import assault weapons illegally I have little to worry about there too.

As I said I have enjoyed guns for a long time ironically some of America’s favourites too no not the AR15 Fester. I presently own a Winchester model 12 skeet model ,
an A5 from the 1920s ,a 12 bore Parker repro, an orvis 20 bore beretta uplander,a couple of English side by sides and 2 classic doubles 101s a 20 bore skeet and 12 bore grade 2 game every bit as good as my Miroku MK60 grade five but half the price. My biggest mistake was selling a 20 bore model 12 ,one of the first to have 2 3/4 chambers and what a balance that gun had. I had five successful shots out of seven with that gun one day, fantastic ,full choke and 25 inch barrel.
My rifles are Remington 700 in .222 ,Ruger #1 in .243 and Winchester 52 B .in 22 all great rifles and all hard saved for.
I’m not anti gun just some of them which I don’t think have any legitimate civilian use and increase the threat level for the general population .i don’t need to apologise to anyone for that and have no intention of doing so.
It’s called taking responsibility ,to ensure what happened in Dunblane has a limited chance of happening here again.

It’s about not allowing everyone access to own such weapons then arming yourself to deal with the problem ,or more likely not deal with the problem but still have access to the arms.
If everyone had to hunt with a flintlock it would sort out those keen to hunt and all the rest.
Apostrophe or comma ,just a slip but not good in such an adversarial exchange of posts .

I notice you have not mentioned the Scottish context of what was the main point of my posting ,avoiding the point and concentrating on the second amendment I think that mistake was far greater than my apostrophe comma faux pas, that’s French again Fester, because it means you failed to engage with the point of my post making your posts largely irrelevant.

Unrestricted means specifically illegal,
you side stepped that request to translate ,were you not able to interpret , I certainly can’t ,you did say you knew exactly what he was meaning ,subtle sarcasm I think you said. Perhaps you could enlighten me ,then again maybe not you tend to shy away from answering questions or points.



Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 09:04 PM
My post would only be irrelevant if I was trying to dictate what all Scottish gun owners ought to be permitted to own.

You are obviously happy to be a sheep that has been corralled by a tyrannical government. You own a lot of shotguns that your 2010 mass shooter found perfectly suitable to accomplish his goal of killing a bunch of innocent people. It matters not whether your lawmakers banned them thrn, or after some future shooting. It could, and probably will happen again. It could even be the result of some Muslim or criminal who knows about your little arsenal, and decides to steal them while you are at the Proctologist office attempting to see if he can get your head inserted a bit deeper.

But here you are Konor3inch, repeating your decidedly anti-gun dogma over and over. The response from all except rocky mtn bill and SKB has not been at all welcome or well received. It certainly is not double gun related. So it fits every definition of unwelcome Trolling.

Now why don't you pull your head out of your ass long enough to explain why you think anti-gunners here find it so evil and egregious to Stop and Frisk known repeat offenders and gang-bangers, who are demonstrably and absolutely responsible for murders and violent crime? But at the same time, they, and you, have no problem with restricting the Constitutional rights of law abiding citizens?

Which of those scenarios is more likely to achieve the ostensibly desired results of reducing crime and saving lives? We have the numbers to show that it did reduce xrime and save kived. Why are you insensitive to those who fear all guns? This is a predominantly North America - United State firearm enthusiasts' forum... so don't try to hide from these questions again as you, an unwelcome foreigner, preaching the very same propaganda put out by rabid anti-gun organizations.

I'm not expecting much, because you have evaded these questions several times now. Clinging to some words craigd posted isn't helping you make any valid points.

By the way... I did indeed mention the Scottish context of the points you keep repeating. If we can believe you, Scottish gun owners universally accept and welcome bans on handguns and semi-automatics. This of course, after you also told us that many Scottish gun owners were not at all happy to surrender and give up their guns of choice. You have no credibility, and I find it increasingly difficult to believe that a tap dancing moron who runs from legitimate questions is representative of all Scottish gun owners. If you really are.. then you have bigger problems than anyone can fix.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/07/20 10:10 PM
I think you haven’t addressed the Scottish angle, the whole point of this discussion because you have no opinion and are interested only in confrontation.

I’d say that I am more pro gun than many assault rifle owners as I gain so much pleasure from my ownership and use of my guns than some who own weapons to use as weapons .
Is your definition of anti gun someone who thinks assault rifles are purely weapons of war and pro pro gun someone who embraces assault weapons? That’s quite a narrow viewpoint and that’s the impression I’m getting.
I think you are the anti gun person here as you’re advocating the unrestricted ownership of weapons only fit for one purpose which brings us sporting gun enthusiasts into disrepute by association in the eyes of those not well informed in such matters.
Maybe you should be apologising to all the true gun lovers for your support of a weapons free for all when doing so leads to so much suffering particularly in your own country.
I see nothing wrong with police stopping and frisking if they think that doing so will contribute to public safety , why would I ?
Propaganda or taking responsibility and common sense I think you only consider it propaganda when it disagrees with your agenda.
Not universally I said some gun owners
Not many but some gun owners resented handing in their hand guns those that had invested heavily in time and money ,remember Uncle Fester these guns were never held for protection only target practice so a far different mind set than your anti tyranny angle.
You write what you would like me to have said to suit your argument but you are too predictable and stupid to get away with it.

As far as I am aware this forum is open to all and as it is a double gun forum and I have had a life long interest in double guns I suggest I am a lot more welcome on here than some assault rifle owners that are only concerned with arguing over the second amendment.
The words CraigD posted were obviously unintelligible yet you defended it as subtle sarcasm that only an intelligent person would understand yet in reality they were gobbledygook which in effect jeopardises what little credibility you have .

Your tirades throughout your posting has led me to believe I have been arguing with the village idiot intent on avoiding the point and throwing anything into the mix to avoid addressing any point and muddy the waters,possibly a bit of a bully but more likely a couch potato with little double gun experience out with an internet search.
I don’t think you are representative of anyone least not anyone outside of an institution and I guess we’ll just have to beg to differ on all these important issues we have discussed
Just a bit of advice ,superlatives rarely add force to an argument especially when it is obvious that the person using them has no argument against the basic concept being discussed. CraigD can explain that to you.

If this is you confronting me Uncle Fester you’ve done a pisspoor job of it . Apart from some generic insults ignoring about half the points I made and questions I asked eg projected results on the Scottish referendum on would you vote to reverse the gun laws and allow free access to assault rifles not a squeak from you.
You’re not the great defender of the second amendment more of an embarrassment to those who defend it, you’ve not really done yourself proud at all. Never mind better luck next time. Are you the guy who breaks the law by trying to track people down on the internet hmmmm . I think you might be a bit of a dodgy character that would fit in with the creepy assault weapon and second amendment obsession I think I’ve seen a few of you guys on TV the ones in full battle dress and the big beer gut. No wonder you don’t want anyone taking those assault weapons you’re low hanging fruit
Remember Uncle Fester we agreed you were the Asshat. Keep up dozey
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 02:30 AM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....I’d say that I am more pro gun than many assault rifle owners as I gain so much pleasure from my ownership and use of my guns....

I'm curious, about two things. Does Scotland give its citizens the right to have pleasure? And, can you truly own a firearm, or do you actually license a firearm?
Posted By: King Brown Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:03 AM
In Nova Scotia (New Scotland), as in rest of Canada, there is no constitutional right to possess firearms. Google it:


"By law, there is no right in Canada to possess firearms.

The facts:

The right to bear arms has been a hotly debated topic in the United States for decades.

That right, say advocates, is deeply entrenched in the U.S. Constitution, and provided for in the Second Amendment that was adopted Dec.15, 1791, as part of the United States Bill of Rights.

In Canada, such a right is not specifically spelled out in the Constitution, although proponents of the notion argue that such a right exists.

But does it?

According to the Supreme Court of Canada, it does not.

"Canadians, unlike Americans, do not have a constitutional right to bear arms," the high court stated in 1993, in a decision over the possession of convertible semi-automatic weapons.

"Indeed, most Canadians prefer the peace of mind and sense of security derived from the knowledge that the possession of automatic weapons is prohibited," said the court."

Seems to me the reason for the enduring Second debate is that it's short on details, with lower courts making different findings of what it means every day.

The federal government makes the gun laws in Canada, and they're voted on democratically as the will of the people in the House of Commons.

There's nothing new about citizens voting on how they want to live, and no good reason to get our knickers in a knot. There's no unanimity in anything.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:37 AM
No Coward3inch, you aren't paying attention at all to what I've said. You remind me quite a bit of a little internet worm from Topeka who only sees what she wants to see.

Let me spell this out for you once more. In my view, you are clearly anti-gun because you cannot get beyond blaming only one particular inanimate object for the criminal actions of violent killers. You want law abiding and totally innocent citizens of your country and my country to pay for the sins of a small minority of criminals.

If a violent killer mowed down a large crowd of innocent people with a large truck, you would not blame large trucks. You would not say that large trucks have become the weapon of choice for many terrorists, so they should be banned. You would not say that law abiding truck owners should be threatened with arrest and imprisonment if they did not give up their truck that never hurt a flea when they were behind the wheel.

Now substitute matches and gasoline for trucks, and you would feel the same, and you have as much said so. Have you ever heard about the largest mass murder in U.S. history prior to the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building, or the 9-11 Muslim terror attacks?

On March 25, 1990, Julio Gonzalez deliberately set fire to the illegal Bronx dance club Happy Land in a deliberate jealous rage after an argument with his ex-girlfriend. 87 innocent people were horribly burned to death. The weapon was matches and less than $1.00 of gasoline.

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc...ticle-1.2152091

And how about the worst mass school killing in U.S. history? There were zero guns involved:

Andrew Philip Kehoe was an American farmer and treasurer of his township school board, notable as a mass murderer for killing his wife and 43 other people (including 38 children), and injuring 58 people by setting off bombs in the Bath School disaster on May 18, 1927.

https://www.clickondetroit.com/all-about...-in-us-history/

There are thousands of other mass killings around the world that do not involve guns of any type. I told you about the arson fire in Japan last July. 33 people, mostly terrified women, died in that massacre.

None of that matters to you. You still believe that handguns and semi-automatic rifles should be banned. You still believe that the owners of these guns are inherently evil and demented, and deserve to be classified as criminals. You claim to abhor personal attacks, yet you personally attack anyone who vehemently disagrees with you, or confronts you with facts.

Finally, the lame arguments you post to support your position totally ignores all of the above. More importantly, most of your argument is exactly the same points made by well known and admitted anti-gunners and anti-gun organizations. If it walks like an anti-gunner, and looks like an anti-gunner, and talks like an anti-gunner... then all the denials in the world aren't going to make you something else Coward3inch.

I've seen very little from you to suggest that you know much at all about double shotguns. And how could I possibly know what the results of a Scottish referendum on reversing your onerous and tyrannical gun laws would be? We certainly know how you would vote, but have not heard from any or all other Scottish gun owners. We certainly cannot take your word for anything, because you have been caught lying and changing your story several times now. Now you have your answer... even as you continue to avoid my questions.

As far as clinging to military weapons shit for brains, why don't you ask rocky mtn bill? He really likes sporterizing weapons of war such as Mauser and Springfield bolt action rifles. Many of the anti-gun Democrats he votes for feel that we should ban those weapons of war. That is just what they call them, and they fear them because they launch bullets at high velocity, and those bullets can easily penetrate police body armor. They are also used at extreme ranges by SNIPERS! As a matter of fact, your Ruger .243 would terrify them for the same reasons. Your .243 is simply a necked down version of the military 7.62 x 51 or .308 cartridge. And full metal jacket .243 bullets are readily available.

How about your Model 12 Winchester pump Coward3inch? Model 12 Pump shotguns were used as deadly military weapons in two World Wars. If you take the plug out of the magazine, and used 2 inch shells, how many people could it kill in very short order? Why are you so insecure and paranoid to need such potent military and sniper guns? Are you trying to compensate for some inherent deficiency or weakness??? Why can't you use a single shot flintlock Brown Bess musket?

If you weren't a fat stupid old demented impotent anti-gun couch potato who is nothing but a one-trick pony, you might be able to reply honestly, and realize the hypocrisy, ignorance, and disingenuous nature of your positions.

And the only thing that the majority here have agreed on is that you have your head up your ass.

P.S.-- We see that you still are avoiding my repeated questions about why you Libtard anti-gunners are hell bent on violating the rights of law abiding citizens, yet most of you are totally against Stop and Frisk laws that actually target the root of the violent gun crime problem. Stop and Frisk is proven to reduce crime, get criminals and illegal guns off the streets, and save lives. And Liberal Democrats simply hate it.
The question isn't whether you personally approve of it. The question is why you and Democrats apparently prefer to infringe upon the gun rights of the law abiding citizens.

Why does this simple question scare the hell out of you Coward3inch?
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 06:06 AM
Originally Posted By: King Brown
....The federal government makes the gun laws in Canada, and they're voted on democratically as the will of the people in the House of Commons.

There's nothing new about citizens voting on how they want to live, and no good reason to get our knickers in a knot. There's no unanimity in anything.

Thanks for the perspective from nuevo Scotland. I'm begining to see what Konor means by solidarity, mob rule then suck it up buttercup, eh?
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 06:21 AM
Liberal anti-gun Trolls like King Brown will go to their graves in denial of the clear language of the 2nd Amendment.

King mentions in his post above that the Supreme Court of Canada recognizes that the U.S. has a Constitutional Right to Bear Arms, while Canadians do not. He respects the decision of the Canadian Supreme Court... except for the part he doesn't like. There is no more dishonest person to ever disgrace this forum than King:

Originally Posted By: King Brown


"Canadians, unlike Americans, do not have a constitutional right to bear arms," the high court stated in 1993, in a decision over the possession of convertible semi-automatic weapons.


Anti-gunners like King Brown are unable to see Gun Rights in the 2nd Amendment, and refuse to accept the 2008 and 2010 Heller and McDonald Supreme Court decisions. All of those lower Court rulings King clings to were made moot points by the two Supreme Court decisions. King knows this and refuses to accept this. Yet the old anti-gunner can clearly see a Constitutional right to aborting and killing unborn babies, when the word abortion is mentioned nowhere in the Constitution.

Sick Liberal bastards who support killing innocent unborn babies, yet oppose the Death Penalty for violent murderers, deserve a special place in Hell.

Coward3inch is Scottish, and so is King. We aren't getting a very good representation of Scottish intelligence here. Will a Scotsman with a brain please speak up?

Is King Brown an Anti-Gunner?

Several idiots here kept asking me why I repeatedly hammered King on his anti-2nd Amendment Trolling views. They said he is a harmless old man, and nobody really takes his bullshit seriously. So as King edges toward his permanent Anti-Gun legacy here, he is being replaced by rocky mtn bill, Coward3inch, and other FUDD's and supporters of anti-gun Democrats.

Stepping on one cockroach won't help when you have an infestation. Killing one cancer cell won't stop the spread of the disease. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 08:26 AM
Uncle Fester,
I have no intention of wasting my time going round in circles with an an agenda driven delusional old man. I think my opinions have been expressed clearly in my previous posts .
You’re bizarre preoccupation with stop and frisk laws has no bearing on the opinions I have already clearly stated.
For the record , as I previously stated and you conveniently ignored
I have no problem in police searching if in doing so they feel that it will increase public safety. I’m assuming this a political talking point in America just now.
I am a lifelong enthusiast of double guns have read the weekly columns of Gough Thomas and Geoffrey Boothroyd since the 1970s I was on first name terms with Geoffrey and corresponded with him as did many gun enthusiasts and when he wrote a short biography of himself in the Shooting Times he illustrated the article with a picture that I had taken of him.

My interests are mainly double gun and I have an extensive collection of double gun titles ,all of Gough Thomas ,Geoffrey Boothroyd, Donald Dallas , Michael McIntosh , Bob Brister, Don Masters with many double gun books you’ve probably never heard of. A complete collection of Double Gun Journals and 20 years of Shooting Sportsman magazines amongst many others.

So I am a double gun enthusiast and one who quite categorically would not think of promoting the possession of assault rifles or hand guns for the reasons I have outlined in previous posts.
You find that hard to accept but the Scottish people are uninterested in relaxing the present laws to allow unstable characters like yourself ,and I think this thread has exposed your instability , to possess such weapons.

For some reason the kids in this country have no tendency to turn up at school with any firearm to shoot their class mates that’s a problem you have in the states probably because idiots like yourself normalise the ownership of military weapons as a solution to your problems.

Your failure to deal with my original opinion and your habit of filling your posts with irrelevant asides and insults does nothing to promote your views.

The people of Scotland have no wish to relax the existing laws to allow ownership of centre fire assault rifles or hand guns far less unlicensed ownership. Should you travel over to promote those views you would be seen as the sad extremist you are. The people here are not and never have been sheep read up on the Glasgow Airport attack of 2007 . To quote John Smeaton one of the guys who tackled the terrorists unarmed “ Don’t come toGlasgow we’ll set aboot ye” epitomises the fighting spirit still very much alive today.
. You would be getting your arse kicked all the way back to the US of A to the security of your extensive collection of personal protection weapon if you travelled over here to promote the unlicensed ownership of assault rifles and hand guns . You may need them at home we the Scots don’t need them here.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 08:38 AM
Uncle Fester we agreed earlier you were the internet couch potato warrior etc those were my insults in response to yours can’t you dream up any imaginative ones yourself.

Your equating matches trucks cars and anything that can be used to harm with military weapons is both desperate and amusing. In the interests of public safety I think BATF should raid your home and take every weapon ,including the contents of your kitchen knife drawer.

Here in Scotland we’ll have a whip round for a cap gun so you can relive the good old days in your head, you can’t say fairer than that Uncle Fester.
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 10:52 AM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
“ Don’t come toGlasgow we’ll set aboot ye”


That would make a good regimental saying.

Originally Posted By: Konor3inch

You would be getting your arse kicked all the way back to the US of A ...



_________________________
Now who’s bad enuff ta do all a dat?
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 01:05 PM
Yes Coward3inch, I agree that you have been clear in your opinions. And your opinions are clearly anti-gun.

I just love how you think your anti-gun opinions represent the opinions of all the gun owners in Scotland. Do you have some proof that they all feel the same as you? Were your restrictive gun bans the result of a referendum or vote by gun owners... or were these laws imposed by your tyrannical government?

You have also made it clear that You are afraid to answer my questions, and instead you twist and squirm to evade answering directly. I told you that I wasn't asking what you yourself thought of Stop and Frisk... And you reply with the idiotic answer that you had already told me what you thought. Billy will be gratified to know that there are people as stupid as him in Scotland. Does wearing a kilt make it that much easier to put your head up your ass Coward3inch?

I am only being repetitive and redundant in my questioning to demonstrate both your cowardice, and/or your total lack of reading comprehension.

This is very reminiscent of trying to debate nca225 or Gladys Kravitz.

You just don't get it Coward3inch. Guns are a tool. An inanimate object as incapable of causing injury or death as a truck or a book of matches, unless incorrectly used and directed by an evil person.

A law abiding handgun owner or semi-automatic rifle owner is no worse and no more evil than a law abiding truck driver, or a law abiding user of matches, knives, hammers, golf clubs, baseball bats, or any other inanimate object that evil men have used as weapons.

So why do you need a Ruger .243 to shoot deer? I find a flintlock is better and more sporting. What personal inadequacy are you covering with your need for a scoped sniper gun? Isn't that how you anti-gunners justify your hatred for firearms?

But naturally, as a devout anti-gunner, you don't see it that way. I could cite a thousand mass killings where the weapon of choice was not a firearm, and you will still be stuck on the guns You dislike... just like a good little anti-gunner. You also are afraid to admit that rocky mtn bill's Mauser bolt rifles, and your Model 12 Winchester pump have been and remain as potentially deadly military weapons.

I was amused by your thinly veiled threats about coming to Scotland and getting my ass kicked. I think you are a loser and a cowardly sheep who has nothing but keyboard muscles. You are a joke with no credibility and no brain. But if you come to the United States, Coward3inch... You will be welcomed with open arms... by the anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats who think exactly like you.

The rest of us who cherish our freedoms and who are not spineless sheep... not so much.
Posted By: SKB Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 01:21 PM
The self gratification is endless:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BD5m40an-4
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 01:38 PM
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 01:41 PM
Originally Posted By: SKB
The self gratification is endless:


Are you talking about the thrill you get when wearing buckle strap girls shoes?

Looks like your gutless doxxing pal BrentD has decided to share everything that he has in his head.
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 02:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....I think my opinions have been expressed clearly in my previous posts....

....I am a lifelong enthusiast of double guns....

....My interests are mainly double gun and I have an extensive collection of double gun titles....

....You find that hard to accept but the Scottish people are uninterested in relaxing the present laws....

....For some reason the kids in this country have no tendency to turn up at school with any firearm to shoot their class mates....

....Your failure to deal with my original opinion and your habit of filling your posts with irrelevant asides....

If you are to be believed, how come the kids of Scotland have no tendency to become double gun enthusiast or wildfowl hunters?

Isn't your original opinion and things that you brush off as irrelevant, the reason that all recreational shooting sport in Scotland has a contracting future? And, just as you try to pass off as fact other opinions that just aren't true, where do you get your information about the tendencies of American kids?

What again was your reason why your field sport collectives and state run ammunition industry don't promote and sponsor youth shooting events? Never mind I think your answer was the people Scotland said no, or at least your shooting sports future are in the hands of fifty percent plus one hopefully citizens. Hey, I'm sure he's working on something, why don't you get Mr. Dallas to do a teaser preview of an upcoming book down in the maker forum? Request lots of pictures, the table of contents, foreward, and a few excerpts for the US folks, and a couple of historical pictures of youth of the past for your Scottish kids to hopefully nurture that spark that's fading before you.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 03:58 PM
CraigD The decline in junior membership of wildfowling clubs ,one of the most reasonably priced forms of shooting, is well documented. This decline is mirrored in youngsters membership numbers in fishing associate membership and in golf club membership here in Scotland. There are just more options available to teenagers now. The trend seems to be that they participate when younger then fall away from the sport in their mid teens. With fishing there is a tendency for people to return to it in later life probably because it is such a relaxing sport.
I get my information from the newspapers reporting on the killing of school pupils by their school friends,Columbine springs to mind. I’m sure there are others ,look them up on your computer.



Access to shooting is the main problem for kids especially those with no family tradition of shooting. Also the commercialisation of shooting to accommodate rich foreigners has led to a reduction in small rough shoots that were the norm 50 years and more back. Saying that there are opportunities if kids are keen, if they beat during the season it is the norm to have beaters shoot days just before the end of the season and pigeon shooting on estates out of the game season can be acquired. Mainly it’s lack of interest coupled with lack of opportunities.

Universities and colleges have their clay pigeon clubs, I ran one for three years.
I don’t know of any ammunition sponsored youth events though I was involved in the past in the BASC run young shot days through local wildfowling clubs which are supported by ammunition manufacturers.

It would be great to be able to encourage more kids ,I don’t think the Donald Dallas book idea would necessarily be a crowd puller though.

“If you are to be believed “ Do you have a rational reason as to why I would lie ?
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 04:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch


“If you are to be believed “ Do you have a rational reason as to why I would lie ?


That's an easy question Coward3inch...

.... because you have already been caught lying and changing your story, and because anti-gunners like you have a long history of lying to advance their agenda.

You know... like calling a semi-automatic AR-15 a military assault gun when no military on earth ever utilized a semi-auto version of an AR-15.

Another example would be King Brown claiming that the words of our 2nd Amendment are difficult to comprehend, or as he said last night, "short on details."

If it looks like an anti-gunner, and acts like an anti-gunner, and sounds like an anti-gunner, you can rest assured it really is an anti-gunner. And hiding behind a pile of gun books and magazines isn't going to fool anyone except idiots like rocky mtn bill. Yes, that rocky mtn bill... The guy who is proud to support and vote for Liberal Left Democrat anti-gunners.
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 04:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....“If you are to be believed “ Do you have a rational reason as to why I would lie ?

Yes, because I'm dumb and can't hold down a job? Just kidding Konor.

You just chose not to see the things that you brush off as irrelevant, no big deal. You aren't asking your self why your kids are seeking life interests, or tolerance, or inclusiveness in other areas, only that you accept it as normal. Ask rm bill, if you can catch him between emotional swings, what policy can do for nearly free access to hundreds of thousands of game rich acres, while also glamorizing some of the most expensive hunting trips for wealthy visitors in the US.

Then, consider the hypocrisy of chosing not to see the political agenda attacks against all things related to shooting. Why bring up politics? It's because policy makers, not you, are in control of your culture and teaching your kids.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 04:33 PM
Uncle Fester,

I’ve come to the conclusion that your posting on this double gun forum is merely a means to attract attention to yourself. Hence the provocative stance I think that you are just one of these guys that crave attention but in real life get absolutely none. Seriously ,maybe some sort of therapy is the way forward for you so that at least you could understand your motives for your behaviour and perhaps learn to control it. Maybe the replies to your posts are the only things that get you up in the morning.
Anyway I agree that a law abiding owner of any gun is not a threat.
However gun laws are there to restrict the possible harm an unstable person can do to society ,look up some examples. Also unsecured guns have on multiple occasions led to the deaths of a sibling in your country. And of course there are incidents where people have accessed other law abiding citizens weapons to murder. Did you understand those points?And of course there are law abiding people who plan attacks with readily available assault rifles, go on to commit those atrocities and then become classed as non law abiding. Can you understand that ?

Those were not thinly veiled threats Fester it was merely to illustrate that the population of Scotland would not be interested in your paranoid ramblings about tyrannical governments and the need to arm the general population just so that you could play at soldiers, super heroes or whatever with your accumulation of weapons . They would send you packing . Your views may be acceptable in USA but there is a big world beyond your borders and you would not be received well here.
Perhaps you should come over and hold a talk on your views in Dunblane town hall. Without your guns of course . Then maybe go for a pint in the pub afterwards to gauge your popularity. I can imagine the newspaper headlines.

“ Does wearing a kilt etc” these sort of remarks are at primary school playground level .I think that coincidently that is the level your debating skills are at too.

Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 04:45 PM
Konor, You got the picture. There is no point in engaging with Keith. He, like his presidential hero, recognizes no objective reality. He is the Organ Grinder. His organ is primitive. It only plays one tune, and he grinds it endlessly. That's because he is only capable of comprehending one lame tune. He has several monkeys here who chime in behind him. Ignore them. They're even more reality-challenged than he is. All we can hope for is that someday he'll go grind his organ somewhere else, preferably in hell.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:00 PM
Grind, grind, grind. We've all heard this sorry tune, Take it somewhere else, preferably in private. The organ grinder lies every time he opens his mouth. Facts have no influence on his "thinking". He is remarkable in one way: the world's first robotic organ grinder. He also has the first troop of robotic monkeys.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:05 PM
Coward3inch, I am so happy to see the points you just made to justify the restrictive bans on certain firearms that were imposed by your tyrannical government, and not agreed to by law abiding gun owners participating in a referendum.

The best point you brought up was the possibility that privately held firearms could be stolen and used in a crime. Or perhaps a sibling could find one and be hurt or killed.

Each one of those points applies to your little arsenal, which includes rifles defined as sniper guns, and the Model 12 Winchester pump that is the same deadly firearm which was used by the U.S Military in both World Wars.

So when do you plan to surrender or destroy your guns for the good and safety of society and your family? How can you sleep knowing a sibling, son, daughter, wife, etc. may find one and get accidentally shot. Or maybe they might use it to commit suicide.

And why won't you consider giving up all of your dangerous firearms, a switch to a single shot flintlock as a safer, less threatening alternative? Why do you need to hunt anyway, when so many are put at risk by your selfish interests?

I'm still amused that you think my personal insults define me in very negative ways, but your many personal insults are somehow justified.

You asked craigd why he might think you lie. Holy crap Coward3inch... your whole life appears to be one big hypocritical lie.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:08 PM
Hey Billy... tell us again...

Do you support the 2nd Amendment...

... or are you a Democrat???


I really enjoyed seeing you admit that you undermine all gun owners, and stab us in the back by supporting anti-gunners.

Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:19 PM
The main reason is accessibility to areas to hunt. Whether this is through no contacts or the expense of getting involved. There are no public hunting grounds here except the area on the foreshore that lies between the high and low tide marks. This can be arduous hunting involving rising in the winter hours before dawn ,traipsing out over the mud in the dark and holing up in a creek bottom in the snow or rain to pass shoot ducks or geese. All this with no guarantee of a shot ,with a 50 yard range over miles of foreshore that geese may flight over it can be a frustrating game.
Contrast that with say playing football with a team of kids your own age ,training during the week and competing at weekends . Playing golf where you can see improvement in your game . Participating in any of the martial arts ,Muay Thai, Karate, Judo Krav Maga, Boxing all freely available near here and all providing a satisfaction with progress.

My own son is a good clay and rifle shot and comes along with me but rarely asks when we are going. He is just not interested and instead has had a successful junior football career.
Shooting is not the be all and end all it is a hobby ,to some a way of life and freezer filler but it doesn’t rule my life and I’m not in control of its future I’m merely a participant.

Politically I am not naive and there is an ever expanding anti fieldsports pressure in schools and television which will have a negative effect on the popularity of shooting.
On of the biggest negative impacts however is the association of sporting weapons with the American weapons free for all and the resulting carnage that hits the headlines. We are all tarred with the same brush so negative aspects of assault gun ownership are projected on to law abiding fieldsports men here .
I don’t want uncontrolled access to assault weapons in this country there’s no reason why I should just because I shoot clay pigeons or hunt deer doesn’t mean I should support the unrestricted possession of military weapons for personal protection ,there is no link and it’s not hypocrisy ,it’s free choice. Should someone own an AR15 and thinks I should not hunt and so is against my possession of a shotgun that is fine by me it’s their choice.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:25 PM
Keith, I'm a Democrat as you already know. I stand for objective reality. I oppose assault weapons, high-capacity magazines, and loose gun show sales. I support the right to own firearms that don't appeal to maniacs and which are useful as hunting or target- shooting tools. PS: Grinding your organ is no longer automatically considered a perversion. Grinding it in public, however, is indecent exposure. Go grind your tiny organ in the privacy of your own home.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:33 PM
Fester fortunately we do not have a tyrannical government instead of wasting your time on here look it up.
Free University degree education , free NHS health care at point of care, Paid maternity leave ,Paid Paternity leave, Family friendly policies, Generous annual leave, a benefits system that aims to retain the dignity of those who fall into unemployment, Free prescriptions, Bus passes for the elderly ,this could stretch for ever the point is we have a government that is concerned for its people and its policies reflect that. According to Ted your government policies include herding people into gun free zones to be slaughtered. You should head over here but leave your handguns etc behind they’re not welcome.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:38 PM
More anti-gun propaganda and lies from Coward3inch. Semi-automatics are not military assault rifles. Full automatic assault weapons are available here, but they are very restricted Class III firearms.

Legally owned full automatic firearms are also involved in virtually no crimes here.

If you are bombarded with Fake News of an assault firearms free-for-all here, but are not hearing about the thousands of other mass murders which do not involve firearms, you should be questioning the agenda driven anti-gun News Media. Instead Coward3inch, you choose to help the anti-gunners spread fake news and complete misinformation.

And you are still to cowardly and selfish to explain why you should keep your little arsenal, when you yourself outlined the potential dangers to society and your family. You say you are happy to be a good little sheep, and be safe from military guns. But you hide from the fact that a model 12 Winchester is a well known military firearm that is much more lethal than almost any handgun.

You are an anti-gun Troll, and worse... You are a living breathing fraud and hypocrite.
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....This can be arduous hunting involving rising in the winter hours before dawn ,traipsing out over the mud in the dark and holing up in a creek bottom in the snow or rain to pass shoot ducks or geese. All this with no guarantee of a shot ,with a 50 yard range over miles of foreshore that geese may flight over it can be a frustrating game....

Sounds more fun to me than having some estate worker telling me where to stand and which direction the birds will be coming from. I think we can all list alternate activities, done many ourselves, but they don't necessarily help out with the appreciation and future of sport gunning. For that reason alone, you have more allies, I didn't say friends, among pistol and semiauto enthusiasts than the social engineers.

You are aware that Scotland is quite a bit smaller that the US, aren't you? If you are so concerned with prevention of accidental shootings and non nut job related shootings that you say are a US plague, how could it be possible to have handgun suicides in Scotland when they are illegal? Ah, it's probably just me 'looking things up'. By the way, this does not look like a good time to ask rm bill about access to the outdoors. Remember, if you get to visit his neck of the woods, try to without preconceived notions.
Posted By: Colonial Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:41 PM
My dear 3 inch friend.
You are brain dead.
By definition, Government has NO money.
Any money is YOUR money.
You or your children will pay, there is no Free.

Originally Posted By: Konor3inch

Free University degree education , free NHS health care at point of care, Paid maternity leave ,Paid Paternity leave, Family friendly policies, Generous annual leave, a benefits system that aims to retain the dignity of those who fall into unemployment, Free prescriptions, Bus passes for the elderly ,this could stretch for ever the point is we have a government that is concerned for its people and its policies reflect that.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:42 PM
Grinding in public is an offence against decency. You could be arrested, something to hope for. Grind on. Your troop is breathless with anticipation.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:46 PM
Uncle Fester All my guns are safely locked away as I guess most responsible peoples are.Kids killing each other with their parents guns are you in denial about that because it doesn’t fit your agenda. I don’t think you accept facts unless they suit you. Google it Fester I’m not doing it for you you lazy munchkin.
What did you think of my idea for your talk at Dunblane then a few drinks afterwards? You didn’t say.
The rest of your post not worth responding to ,you’re quite a boring guy Fester
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 05:48 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
....I support the right to own firearms that don't appeal to maniacs and which are useful as hunting or target- shooting tools....

Hey Konor, rm bill is well aware that AR style rifles with high capacity magazines are used all over his state in the US to legally hunt all manor of big game, and allow thousands to participate in target shooting events and competitions. Read over his comments, do you think he should be deciding who a maniac is and isn't? See past your personal feelings and consider that rm bill may very well prejudge a person if they're wearing a kilt while out elk hunting.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 06:06 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
Keith, I'm a Democrat as you already know. I stand for objective reality. I oppose assault weapons, high-capacity magazines, and loose gun show sales. I support the right to own firearms that don't appeal to maniacs and which are useful as hunting or target- shooting tools. PS: Grinding your organ is no longer automatically considered a perversion. Grinding it in public, however, is indecent exposure. Go grind your tiny organ in the privacy of your own home.


We have been down this road many times Billy. I have shown you examples of mass shootings that involved the bolt action rifles of military origin that you prefer. And I have provided endless examples of mass murders that involved no firearms whatsoever.
I have reminded you that many Democrats think your bolt action rifles should be banned because they are long range high velocity sniper rifles that can penetrate police body armor.

Would you like to take a shot and explain why the Democrats you support all oppose Stop and Frisk laws when they are proven to save lives and get illegal guns off the street? Why do they all wish to instead target law abiding citizens?

None of that deters you. The facts never matter to you. And the most important fact we here need to know is that anti-gunners like you are paving the way to infringements upon the 2nd Amendment Rights of law abiding citizens. That is simply beyond treasonous and subversive. You present a danger to the Constitutional rights of all of us.

And holy shit Billy.... this recent public preoccupation with masturbation from you, canvasback, Coward3inch, and Stevie is very disturbing. It amazes me that the self appointed moderators, whiners and crybabies like old colonel Gladys Kravitz, the preacher, BrentD, and every other fraud who complains about decorum, decency, and driving folks away, are totally silent about your perverted postings. I'd like to see you sick bastards try that on Upland Journal or Accurate Reloading forums, or over on the Parker Gun forum where Shortshells hangs out. Maybe the four of you need to get together for some private time and work this out among yourselves. But I think you all need to keep your masturbation in your own perverted closets. This crap is certainly not double gun related. And please consider showing your public masturbation posts to your mental health provider to see what is driving this perverted talk.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 06:11 PM
Well, the Organ Grinder's monkey chimes in with his usual incomprehensible response. Craig, the word is MANNER, not manor, a minor lapse. We know who the maniacs are. Their names are attached to their deeds. We could thwart some of them in the future if we only had the will. That somebody chooses to hunt with an assault rifle is not an argument for his right to do so. He could do a better job with a more appropriate rifle. I could kill game with a bazooka, but that's no reason I should be allowed to do so.
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 06:11 PM
Originally Posted By: craigd
...rm bill may very well prejudge a person if they're wearing a kilt while out elk hunting.


Be careful with that rm bill. My BIL tried stabbing me one Thanksgiving. I was riding him pretty hard aboot the skart.

King, did you watch the Bruins and Lightning last night? That was a good one.


_________________________
I hope you don’t hate me or switched to soccer.
Posted By: King Brown Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 06:26 PM
The political stuff is more entertaining to me these days, lonesome. Must be age, slowing down, but a good woman by my side, a book, glancing back and forth at prattling politicians, the warmth from old Vermont Casting wood stove and dreaming of hungry trout is excitement enough these days.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 06:32 PM
Hi Fester hows the blood pressure going up I expect ,anyway I’ll hold on to my working arsenal while I still have a legitimate use for it, I couldn’t part with it now as I’m still fit and healthy and have plenty opportunities to enjoy them afield.

Sorry if I’ve upset you by not going along with your idea of unrestricted access to assault weapons for all despite your continual rants ,never mind that’s life, you just have to accept other people’s view points and get over yourself.

I’ve noticed you don’t really debate ,more kind of shoot people down I guess you must have suffered a few slaps in the coupon in the past. Much safer here on the internet, although are you not the guy who tracks people on the internet hmmm scary guy.

When’s the date for your Dunblane venue incidentally you’ll have to be fearless to give that gig a shot ,let me know what you decide I could maybe drive you over.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 06:37 PM
Coward3inch, the 2013 shooter Adam Lanza did not buy his guns. They were safely locked away in his own mother's gun safe. He killed her and took them to use in a mass shooting.

You just keep falling on your face with one lame excuse after another to explain away your hypocrisy and your dissemination of anti-gun propaganda.

You won't address my other points because you are afraid, and haven't come up with a suitable lie. Keep flailing. Go play with your sniper and military type pump 12 gauge shotgun. Tell all of the fearful victims that you deserve to keep yours because of your inadequacy and mental deficiencies.

What a joke. You perverts deserve each other. But law abiding citizens don't deserve to be stabbed in the back by you.
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 06:47 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
Well, the Organ Grinder's monkey chimes in with his usual incomprehensible response. Craig, the word is MANNER, not manor, a minor lapse. We know who the maniacs are. Their names are attached to their deeds. We could thwart some of them in the future if we only had the will. That somebody chooses to hunt with an assault rifle is not an argument for his right to do so. He could do a better job with a more appropriate rifle. I could kill game with a bazooka, but that's no reason I should be allowed to do so.

Me tarzan, you jane? Just kidding bill, I elect not to worry too much about spelling, for once you're right, I am wrong and I thank you.

Bill, I don't believe it is legal to havest game with a bazooka, or are you perpetuating the talking point of the unrestricted? Hey, I took the semi auto .22 out yesterday and bagged a few kinda wooly looking gophers with my faux assault rifle and got a couple with my 22 hand gun. I didn't bring any antique stuff, because I figured the conditions would be a bit rough with some melt, and boy it didn't disappoint that way. Crunched through the crust on a pretty big drift and I'd be an organ grinders monkey if I didn't say I was glad to back out of that one without too much drama.

So, someone can chose a legal hunting arm, and you say no because you are the final say on appropriateness? Are you using the cover of low magazine capacity, classic bolt action hunting rifle configuration to mask a mental health concern? Is this what's meant by the red flags something or another? Bill, the fact is that there is clear hypocisy in saying the the AR platform has no field or target appropiate application. All that matters in a manner of speaking, is that you want to impose your feelings on others. Konor doesn't care nor will he admit it, but maybe he's taking note of the hypocrisy of feeling good?
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 06:48 PM
Originally Posted By: craigd
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....This can be arduous hunting involving rising in the winter hours before dawn ,traipsing out over the mud in the dark and holing up in a creek bottom in the snow or rain to pass shoot ducks or geese. All this with no guarantee of a shot ,with a 50 yard range over miles of foreshore that geese may flight over it can be a frustrating game....

Sounds more fun to me than having some estate worker telling me where to stand and which direction the birds will be coming from. I think we can all list alternate activities, done many ourselves, but they don't necessarily help out with the appreciation and future of sport gunning. For that reason alone, you have more allies, I didn't say friends, among pistol and semiauto enthusiasts than the social engineers.

You are aware that Scotland is quite a bit smaller that the US, aren't you? If you are so concerned with prevention of accidental shootings and non nut job related shootings that you say are a US plague, how could it be possible to have handgun suicides in Scotland when they are illegal? Ah, it's probably just me 'looking things up'. By the way, this does not look like a good time to ask rm bill about access to the outdoors. Remember, if you get to visit his neck of the woods, try to without preconceived notions.


CraigD
I couldn’t agree more shooting on the shore is the ultimate shooting experience for me. I also have access to a lot of rough shooting over good ground with a dog and that comes a close second you can be more flexible and I enjoy this type of walked up shooting. The syndicate shooting is fun ,more social with like minded people mostly local farmers ,we split our numbers in half and alternate between walking/beating where birds can still be shot going back away from the standing guns ,and standing we don’t stand at pegs we are all experienced enough to line out and cover the likely areas birds will flush over, we don’t always get it right though.
I haven’t heard of any recent suicides with handguns here. Organised crime still have access to hand guns ,if you are bringing in drugs you can bring in hand guns ,there are restricted two shot handguns normally revolvers with 4 blocked chambers which are available for humane despatch of deer and there is no ban on muzzle loading revolvers so that’s three possibilities there are also arms and ammo still in families which were originally war trophies
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 07:00 PM
DmColonial you really are a joke .
And here’s me thinking the government were just in charge of printing money ,you are priceless.
Let me explain the government gathers together the money ,not literally DmColonial of course just trust me on this, then it decides on how it will be spent.
So instead of creating areas to be gun free for mass slaughter to occur ,like Ted maintains your government does ,it implements policies that benefit the people. Great idea eh
A lot of these policies like free University degree courses are Scottish only policies and don’t apply to the rest of the UK ,you can look the rest up if you are interested

We all pay through taxation of course but having a good government with the well being of its country’s population at heart means we all benefit .
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 07:07 PM
craigd, we ought to also remind Coward3inch and Billy about the D.C. Sniper who terrorized the Washington area for weeks. The many victims were all killed with a single bullet, fired from his concealed position in the trunk of a car.

Billy's five round Mausers and Coward3inch's rifles would do just fine in the hands of a mentally ill killer.

But we should know from years of taking the time to truthfully explain the facts about inanimate objects used as weapons, that anti-gunners simply don't want to hear it. They know the truth, but they choose to deny the truth and spread anti-gun lies.

I don't explain this stuff ad nauseam for them. They are too far gone. I do it to keep them going. I want them to keep showing everyone just how dangerous they are to those of us who are interested in keeping our 2nd Amendment Rights, and passing them on intact to our children. Our fathers did that for us, and it is up to us to expend a little time, money, and effort to do the same.

I would be ashamed to look my kids or grandkids in the eye some day, and admit that I helped to give away the freedoms our forefathers fought and died to give to us.

Coward3inch, and all of the other FUDD's in Scotland and the UK might not even be here today if it wasn't for the sacrifices of so-called violent 2nd Amendment Rights loving Americans who saved their sorry asses in WW II. Just look at the gratitude, and the stupidity of those who think there is nothing under all of those Crosses in the cemeteries around Normandy and Arlington.

I don't ever want the future generations to look back at my generation, and say I and other gun owners were spineless sheep.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 07:10 PM
I just noticed you referenced me in your masturbation post. Was that some sort of Freudian slip . You do realise this is not a dating site.

Just another example of you lying in your posts for attention I expect.

Any news on the Dunblane gig or are real people just a step too far for you at what I assume is an early stage of therapy.
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 07:19 PM
Fester re Adam Lanza he should never have been able to gain access to those guns as you well know.
In this country people have had their certificate withdrawn for such an occurrence ie allowing anyone to have knowledge of a cabinet keys location and so allowing an unauthorised person access to their weapons just because of the potential for these incidents to occur.
Your laissez faire attitude to unregulated ownership makes these incidents more likely.
Dates for Dunblane ???
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 07:21 PM
Fester when you say mentally ill killer are you referring to yourself
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 07:22 PM
Fester do two wrongs make a right in your book.
I have no doubt that bolt action rifles are used to kill people in your country ,it doesn’t surprise me I can think of only 2 incidents here. One a mass shooting in England ,the Derrick Bird shootings and the other a gangland hit in Glasgow years back.
Again firearms control has decreased these incidents to the bare minimum
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 07:36 PM
Craig, I know the "AR platform" could be used as an effective hunting rifle. If that were all it was used for, I'd have no objection. What you and the Organ Grinder can't grasp is that it's the weapon that lets maniacs maximize their kill. For that reason and no other it's a weapon that needs to be gotten rid of. The Organ Grinder cites the loony in the Texas clock tower who used a bolt action. He used that rifle because it's the one he had. If he could have had his hands on an AK or an AR, be sure he'd have chosen it because it would allow him to do even more damage. To say that hammers or chain saws can kill people is plain stupid. What we need to do is to lessen the maniac's ability to do harm.PS: guns are a hobby for me ; they're not my life. My life doesn't hinge on owning an assault rifle. No one's life does.
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 07:39 PM
Adam Lanza killed his own Mother to get her guns. She did not voluntarily give him access.

There is nothing stopping one of your relatives from going nuts or becoming drug addicted and killing you to do the same. There is nothing stopping your Muslim friend, or anyone else who may know of your little personal arsenal from plotting to get them.

A random criminal simply doing a burglary when you are out buying a new Spring dress, I mean kilt, could get them, and use them himself, or sell them on the illegal black market.

I don't care how secure your safe or cabinet is. I'll bet a compliant sheep like you would unlock it in a heartbeat if someone had a knife on your neck.

If you had any brains at all, you wouldn't even waste your time giving such lame excuses for being selfish, and finding justification for keeping your little arsenal of sniper rifles and military style pump shotgun. Or is it your inherent dishonesty and hypocrisy that makes you keep coming back to make,an ass of yourself?
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 07:43 PM
Well lads that’s me calling it a day . I’ve wasted a lot of time learned very little and the lack of worthwhile debate has chased me off . I just can’t justify the time spent as I have got other stuff to get on with.
I’ll come up with the odd opinion to contribute but cheerio for now.

Fester you are something else but I am sure it can be diagnosed hopefully, for you , it is treatable . I’d hate to think you wasted your life in pointless ranting on a site where no one really cares what you say, unless it’s just for the sheer entertainment value of reading it. We definitely got a hell of a lot of views but the only person thinking the attention is worth the time spent is. Good old Uncle Fester hope you like your new name hopefully it will catch on.


Remember let me know when you are up for that gig at Dunblane promoting the benefits of unrestricted access to firearms for all. The post drinks bash should be lively or do I mean deadly,
Posted By: Konor3inch Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 07:54 PM
Brent D couldn’t stop myself from coming back for an encore ,just to take a bow to acknowledge your appreciation. It was fun but way too time consuming


Slainte Mhath
Konor
Posted By: keith Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 07:57 PM
And I've learned that you are still afraid Coward3inch. And a loser with no stamina and no answers to easy questions.

Coward3inch... The new name is so much more fitting. Where are you off to??? Will you be getting a haircut at some local sheep shearing contest? Tell the rest of the flock I said hi. If the flock is large enough, you can all stuff the ballot box at your referendum, and win out over the many law abiding citizens and shooters who were not at all happy to give up their guns.
Posted By: craigd Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 08:51 PM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
Uncle Fester,
...
Perhaps you should come over and hold a talk on your views in Dunblane town hall. Without your guns of course . Then maybe go for a pint in the pub afterwards to gauge your popularity.


Once a day or so, I briefly skim through this thread for entertainment purposes only. I've got to say, this is the funniest thing that I've read in a LONG time. I can just imagine.....giving a seminar on his views. Talk about a train wreck in real time! And sure to add to his long list of people converted to the AntiGunClub - which is the only club to which.....ever added a member.

I thought this is kind of funny, hypocrisy.

There was a thought by Konor to look it up. This one event is the absolute definition of knee jerk reaction, and you could maybe take a few intelligentcia charts and graphs to a townhall and make a case? Could be Scotland missed the chance to ban airliners just a few years earlier. Me, sure I'd go, but the hypocritical at the meeting can go fly a kite. I'd ask one or two of the lowly help around the hotel where the best hole in the wall eating places are in town and visit there.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 08:59 PM
Originally Posted By: craigd
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
Uncle Fester,
...
Perhaps you should come over and hold a talk on your views in Dunblane town hall. Without your guns of course . Then maybe go for a pint in the pub afterwards to gauge your popularity.


Once a day or so, I briefly skim through this thread for entertainment purposes only. I've got to say, this is the funniest thing that I've read in a LONG time. I can just imagine.....giving a seminar on his views. Talk about a train wreck in real time! And sure to add to his long list of people converted to the AntiGunClub - which is the only club to which.....ever added a member.

I thought this is kind of funny, hypocrisy.

There was a thought by Konor to look it up. This one event is the absolute definition of knee jerk reaction, and you could maybe take a few intelligentcia charts and graphs to a townhall and make a case? Could be Scotland missed the chance to ban airliners just a few years earlier. Me, sure I'd go, but the hypocritical at the meeting can go fly a kite. I'd ask one or two of the lowly help around the hotel where the best hole in the wall eating places are in town and visit there.


glad you were entertained. Unfortunately, your posts are often hard to parse and not often worth the bother. I see where this was a problem earlier in this thread, as well.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 09:07 PM
The Organ Grinder is the only real 3" contributor here, except for the members of his troop. "Cowards" is to be understood as anyone who disagrees with him. He himself is a model of courage, having ground here for years without ever disclosing his identity. His identity is of no interest; he only exists online. He is an android. He believes whatever he is told by The National Enquirer of net work news, FOX. Keith would never have existed unless Rupert Murdoch had invented him to personify the rube that Murdoch and Trump needed to pull of their heist. So, Keith, grind on.No one hears you but your troop of monkeys.
Posted By: Colonial Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 09:42 PM
Bill, when you start flailing that anyone who disagrees with you is less than human, It is time for you to renew your NSDAP membership.
You truly are to be pitied.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 09:52 PM
Dm, Keith isn't just anyone who disagrees with me. I don't mind people who disagree with me. Keith is a loud-mouth bully. He's a quadrilateral, astronomical, incandescent sonofabitch. If you don't believe that, join his troop of monkeys.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Voluntary lead ban in UK - 03/08/20 10:20 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
Dm, Keith isn't just anyone who disagrees with me. I don't mind people who disagree with me. Keith is a loud-mouth bully. He's a quadrilateral, astronomical, incandescent sonofabitch. If you don't believe that, join his troop of monkeys.


You gotta point there.
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