I ran across an article mentioning placing the ruff grouse on the in danger species list. I believe it was the Indiana division of wildlife or maybe Illinois? Has anyone seen or heard any more on this subject? It’s been a couple of months ago, when I saw the tickler article.
I know it’s been years since I heard a grouse drum in the state of Ohio.

Perhaps you mean endangered? You were probably looking at a proposal for a state endangered list which is not to be confused with federally declared endangered species. Totally different thing and common for species on the fringes of their ranges - especially southern fringes.

It may have been Indiana. We used to have Ruffed Grouse, but there are none to speak of now. The hunting season for them was closed a couple or more years back.

Sure hope that does not happen . I also worry about quail in the southeast being endangered

Most of our southeast quail come from incubators and flight pens nowadays anyhow...Geo

I should have said "wild quail" in the Southeast. Sadly, George is right that quail in the Southeast nowadays means released quail

Don't know about grouse but here in PA the pheasant should be on the endangered species, the state cares nothing about fixing it. The used to release 6 week out pheasants on non posted farms and they stopped doing this. Now all if not most are pen raised. In 1971 PA harvested 1.3 million and beat out South Dakota.

Has anyone mentioned this to the Accipitridae family ?

O.M

Back in about 1978 or 1979, when I was Iowa editor of the old Fins & Feathers magazine, I ran a quiz in one of my monthly columns. One of the questions: Name the only two states to record a harvest of over one million pheasants last season. The correct answer was Iowa and PA. South Dakota didn't top a million in any of the seasons from 1975-79. Iowa was over a million every year from 1963 (when the DNR started reporting numbers) to 1981. Then hit a few down years in the mid-80's until CRP took hold. By that time, PA was into a pretty steep decline. South Dakota didn't get much of a CRP bounce in numbers until the 90's. Iowa's decline didn't really start until the current century. But pheasants aren't anywhere close to being endangered in Iowa now, even though numbers aren't anywhere close to what we experienced from 1987-2000.

Grouse numbers in Iowa were excellent when I first started hunting them back in 1973 (within a fairly small geographic area). They could likely pass for endangered in Iowa now, sad to say.

"Beat out S.D.??"" is there a contest between the various States that still have pheasants and an open season on them. Many many years ago, 1970's, when MI had a fairly substantial ruffed grouse season, a local chapter of the RGS held a annual contest for most grouse killed in the generous 75 day Fall seasons. A former hunting pal one the jackpot one year with 25-- how did they verify the count- you turned in a pair of dead grouse legs, tied together-- 50 legs, 25 dead birds- He also told me that he and his dog lost about 11 sail-offs and possible cripples the year he and his GSP bagged that total. That, amigoes, is one solid reason we don't have many Sir Ruffs now-a-days around Central MI.

Talk about pheasants (my favorite upland game bird)-- go see the current Harrison Ford movie--based on Jack London's story- "Call Of The Wild" apparently the Yukon had pheasants (all cocks) back around 1900--huumm!! RWTF

If you don’t have Ruffed grouse in central Michigan, you don’t have suitable habitat. If you don’t have suitable habitat, you need to make your DNR aware that it concerns you. 9 out of 10 chicks in a clutch don’t survive their first year, whether they are hunted, or not.

I am far more worried about a few mosquito born illnesses that have showed up in this part of the world, and what their effect on all bird populations will be, then overhunting.

Best,
Ted

Absolutely. In the 90s Iowa was pretty good at winning it too. But no more.

Hunting doesn't endanger pheasant populations. Cock hunting just doesn't have that sort of effect. Loss of CRP and conversion of fields of set aside to strips certainly had bad effects. Some nasty winters sandwiching some horrible, wet springs helped create a perfect storm for their decline. And now, some of the pesticides may be the coup de grâce. Anything that gets in front of Big Ag get steamrolled.

The steep decline in ringneck pheasant numbers in Pennsylvania started when the Pa. Game Commission began allowing the harvest of hens. When the inevitable decline happened, they refused to reverse their stupid policy, or admit their mistake. Instead, they blamed the decline on other things such as "clean farming".

It has now reached a point where native birds are pretty much extinct, and pheasant hunting is almost entirely put-and-take of stocked birds on State Game Lands. Stocked birds that do not get shot mostly become coyote food. The attempt to replace ringneck with Sichaun Pheasants failed miserably. I started hunting when Pa. was loaded with pheasants, and many times saw flocks of 40 or more birds. Once upon a time, it wasn't that hard to shoot a limit of cocks in a couple hours... without dogs. It just seems like the more wildlife biologists we have tinkering with things, the worse the situation gets.

Edit-- I will never understand how the same people who cling to the idea of global warming can also blame low bird numbers on exceptionally hard winters. And oh my gosh... who ever heard of wet weather in Spring?

Keith, you clearly don't understand climate change.

You see, when we point to an extra cold winter as evidence that this man made climate change thing is a load of BS , we are told by the members of the MMGW religion "That's weather, dummy!". But when that same cold winter can be blamed for something like low bird numbers, those same members of that same religion will point to the cold winter and say "See! Climate change!" .

Canvasback, I don't know if you are aware but our former Premier of British Columbia, went to the Government of Canada under the Freedom of Information Act to inquire about chem-trails. The Government of Canada replied to him that it was called Geoengineering and that they were aware that it was being done. They said they weren't involved as a Government but were continuing to monitor it.

So there is Man Made Climate Change but it's being engineered. So to what end? Create the problem, wait for the reaction, then present a solution? But on a Global scale. Pretty interesting.

Geoengineering

ruffed grouse are on the way to extinction due to an excess of two predators...specifically the eastern coyote and the wild turkey...significantly reduce the numbers of these two varmints, and we will see a resurgence in grouse numbers...

ed, you are dumber than a box of rocks.

I grew up on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. As a small boy we had quail, rabbits and most small game in abundance. Ducks and geese in great numbers. Few pheasant on the Shore, mostly in the upper areas. Deer numbers were decent and there were zero turkeys. Fast forwards to today and Deer are like fleas and turkeys are where the never were, but quail are rare as hens teeth, Rabbits are gone, small game in general is just not to be found. And I am afraid ducks and geese are in ever decreasing numbers. One goose per day type numbers. Wont be long before they just close it completely.

But the DNR hail the numbers of deer and turkeys as proof their efforts are making things fantastic. As far as I am concerned the DNR could not organize as wet dream in a whore house. God help any game the DNR tries to mismanage.

Poor BrentD. He not only doesn't have a dime to support this forum where he spends so much time, he also doesn't have a brain.





www td

And there is a reason that many coyote hunters are finding turkey yelps to be a most effective call:

Always has been a "contest" in a certain sense, RWTF. For South Dakota, pheasant hunting is big business. We're talking about a state with a population of a bit over 800,000 with over 140,000 pheasant hunters most years--most of them nonresidents. (Over 100,000 of them in really good years.) That's a significant economic impact.

Your friend bagged 25 grouse and lost 11 hit and not recovered? I find that hard to believe on grouse. They're neither that hard to kill if you hit them, nor are they that hard for a dog to recover, compared to pheasants--which are much harder to kill and much more of a challenge for a dog to recover if they come down with two good legs. I've kept track of pheasants my dogs have failed to recover for 40+ seasons. When I was spending a lot more time hunting them than I do now--back when Iowa had a lot more birds than today--most of my dogs averaged 20+ birds successfully recovered for every one lost. Over a six season span, during Iowa's best years in the early 90's, my very best dog recovered 491 pheasants while losing 12. That's a ratio of 1 lost for every 41 recovered. I've heard of pheasant dogs that have never lost a bird (but I remain skeptical!)--but that's as close as one of my dogs ever came.

I would say that 20:1 is about what I experience as well. Pheasants are indeed tough in all ways. We lost one this year in cattails that I could hear splashing as he ran, but we still never found him. Just vaporized. I think that was the only one we lost, so it was a good year for us that way.

brent: my theory re: coyote and turkey predation is based on over 50 years of personal experience observing the decline of the ruffed grouse... in addition, my hobby doublegun dealings have provided me with opportunities to communicate with fellow grouse hunters all over the country. many of them have also observed that as coyote and turkey numbers increase, grouse numbers decrease...

do you have a theory as to why ruffed grouse have all but disappeared in the eastern states from the mountains of nc to the middle of me? if so, please do share it with us old grouse hunters here, if you will...

What, pray tell is the MMGW religion?? Never heard of it. RWTF

man made global warming, aka: much money gone wrong?

grouse do thrive in winter when there is lots of snow...they do burrow in for warming insulation and protection from wind and predators...when it is 40 below outside, it is above freezing under a few feet of snow...

It is the unquestioned belief in Man Made Global Warming. Unsubstantiated by empirical evidence. Taken on faith and demanding that others take the belief on faith as well.

"The Science is Settled!" When no such thing has taken place. The removal and de-funding of scientists who don't join the consensus and croak about the coming CO2 Apocalypse.

Science by it's very nature does not accept consensus. Copernicus defied consensus at the risk of ostracism by having the temerity to suggest the Earth wasn't the centre of the universe.

In the Western world, where traditional religion largely gone AWOL, it seems the secularists among us still gravitate to faith.

Amen...heretic.

There's a new acronym that's gaining momentum, make America meaningful again, mama.

CB, You make an interesting example of a man who questions BS when it conflicts with your beliefs but who swallows it whole when it doesn't. Climate science is as settled as any current issue could be. The deniers are a tiny fraction of those engaged in the studies. It does happen, however, that climate change denial coincides with current conservative "thinking" because it calls into question the wholesale exploitation of fossil fuels. When it comes to profits VS. sustainability, conservatives never err on the side of conservation.

You have the not so interesting ability to ignore hypocrisy.

Tiny fraction of deniers. That brings to mind the Obama years when we kept being told that liberal democrat demographics had eclipsed conservatism and that like the Borg, resistance is useless. Polls all prove it. Then along comes the conservative revolution...Geo

I'll leave the climate science to smarter guys than me.

Craig, when it comes to siding with Republicans or scientists, the choice is as clear as anyone could hope for. You (they) have your alternative facts that don't bear any correspondence to objective reality, but within your bubble reassure you that you're not the only fool on the planet. Meanwhile, ask yourself what sort of future you're making for your grandchildren.

HAHAHA!!!!
Almost a decade of the feel good, symbolism and lack of substance of the Democrat party, and the decline of grouse is Trump’s fault!

HAHAHA!

Hey, BILL! Grandchildren need a job, FIRST! Preferably a high paying, fossil energy job that frees them from being beholden to 7th century zealots that want those same Grandchildren destroyed, or enslaved!


God, you are a dope.


Best,
Ted

As anyone with a brain knows (This leaves out rocky mtn bill, a gun owner who supports anti-gun Democrats) climate has always been changing for as long as the Earth has had an atmosphere.

The only science that has been settled is that which has been spoon fed as propaganda to Libtards and fools like Billy. He won't even look at any of the following, because he is a brainless sock-puppet.



We are probably closer to a cold period than runaway global warming. Global cooling has always been rougher on humanity than warm periods.

Just two years ago, we had a colder than normal winter, and a wetter than normal spring and summer. The precipitation records in much of the East were broken, when the alarmists have been predicting another Dust Bowl era.


http://www.hiltonratcliffe.com/the-myths-of-man-made-climate-change/

http://www.climatedepot.com/2010/12/08/s...un-ipcc-gore-2/

https://www.amherst.edu/media/view/400467/original/2010_Senate_Minority_Report.pdf

If we go by prehistoric CO2 levels, at our current CO2 level, the ocean sea levels should be over 100 feet higher than they are right now. But they aren't, are they? And humans didn't even exist at that time either, so who do we blame for that? If dinosaurs had only driven Prius's, they might still be here.

And if you can make it all the way to the end of this article (don't even try rocky mtn bill), it will be seen that the correlation between CO2 levels and temperatures over the last 400,000 years being used to support the Global Warming propaganda from the Liberal Left is cherry-picking data at its' finest:

http://www.pnas.org/content/99/7/4167

But Liberals and the Fake News have largely been successful in suppressing the 2009 Climate-gate scandal. They just stopped talking about Global Warming until the controversy died down, but they knew they could come right back and continue the B.S.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/colu...generation.html

Ted, I never blamed Trump for grouse decline. However, you seem to be aware that grouse survival is connected to habitat health. Question: do you see any connection between Trump policy and habitat health?

Question Billy... do you see any connection between the Liberal Democrats you support, and almost all infringements upon the 2nd Amendment rights of law abiding U.S. Citizens???


Do you support the 2nd Amendment...

...Or are you a Democrat?

Why are you afraid to answer this question Billy?

The science says that prematurely born human beings have survived as early as somewhere around twenty weeks. Is it funny, or sad that you mention grandchildren, or maybe hypocritical? Full disclosure, I'm asking within your bubble. My grandkids know 'papa' figures live and let live, why do you want your grandkids stuck in an everyone else's definition of reasonable bubble?

Isn't he the fellow that wants to stop the tonnage of raw human sewage from running into our, not their, west shores? Isn't he the only fellow on the national stage that supports the outdoors citizen, you know, practicaly the only patriots who are footing the bill for conservation?

Great points craigd. But should we consider extremely late term abortions in, let's say the 222nd trimester, to rid the world of unproductive and brain-dead old Libtards?

Craig, conflatulations. You've posted the all-time least coherent word salad. There ought to be a trophy. If it matters to you, try again to say something, only this time gather your thoughts before you type. No one can read your mind. What's an outdoor citizen? Trump? Where I live all our politicians support outdoor recreation, but Democrats back it up with policies that make it possible. Republicans only talk the talk.

Gee Billy, I found craigd's posts perfectly understandable. Your "conflatulations"... not so much! Is that referring to your flatulence of the mouth?

His thought process is certainly more intelligent and understandable than those of an idiotic gun owner who is blind to the fact that virtually all efforts to ban guns and hunting come from the Liberal Left Democrats you support.

But you are afraid to address those facts.

All the folks who post here and who enjoy outdoor recreation must understand that protection for air, soil, and water are essential to any kind of future for our pursuits, right? Now, try to square that understanding with current presidential policy. It can't be done. As long as the only standard for measuring success is financial growth, then we can kiss outdoor recreation goodbye. Cut, dig, and drill. Let the grand kids deal with the consequences.

What a complete idiot you are Billy. There has been widespread mining, and oil and gas drilling for well over 100 years in this country. Widespread timber cutting started 3-400 years ago when the first settlers started cutting our virgin forests to export lumber back to Europe.

In spite of all this, there is still outdoor recreation and hunting. As craigd pointed out, much of the financial backing for conservation efforts has come from sportsmen, and those who backed things like Pittman-Robinson, etc.

So will you stop driving your truck and give up all things made of steel? It took a lot of iron and coal mining and energy extraction to build that and keep it all running. It was your demand that caused that... not Donald Trump. How about your guns Billy? It took mining, steel production, and wood cutting to produce the materials to build those too. Do you ever think at all before you post your nonsense?

Financial growth and meaningful employment opportunities for our grandchildren can indeed co-exist with outdoor recreation opportunities. When your anti-gun and anti-hunting Liberal Democrats manage to turn this nation into a Socialist shit-hole like Venezuela, only the ruling class will be able to afford hunting and outdoor recreation.

How do you know if I passed gas?

Where you live bill, progressives are pushing to make it easier for Montanans to get high, right? Funny eh, they come on your tv and spam you about how hard working traditional Montanans just want to sit around stoned. What's the science say, that pot is devastating high school aged Montana youth and that millions are being spent in your state to get addiction counselors and other behavior health workers into the schools that are producing your future?

Don't the facts say, and please steer me in the right direction if I am wrong, that Montana dem pols vote in lock step with the national agenda. There are some Republicans that will say things like dems come up with policies that have unintended consequences, but we know better don't we. The best way we can justify expanding Montana welfare and medicaid is to create a need, eh? But, not your grandkids huh, only the grandkids that we can hypocritically push out of sight and out of mind by throwing them a few feel good crumbs.

Craig, I know you passed gas because it appeared here on the site. If Montana kids are being devastated by MJ, it's not in the news here. What's your source? As for the est of your message, it's a scramble as usual. Try again.

Anyone with the will to see knows that Montana is covered with superfund clean up sites, eh bill? Started by those who have come before, but certainly supported by your current President. Just think, if those Montanans that mined by hand in the eighteen hundreds just parked their arses in a tofu and latte shop in Bozeman high on weed, then all your visions would have been so, eh?

Ooops, that doesn't stir your feelings like the green deal, because while there is scientific proof that we are not leaving some consequesnces to our kids, there is also proof that you have no idea if you are helping your grand children in the slightest bit, huh bill? It's completely unfair, those enviro money pit projects for little ole Montana could be redirected to expand homelessness in kali, because, after all, don't they have the votes to override your silly little hunting selfishness, sorry hypocrisy?

Awe c'mon bill. You have reluctantly admitted to some of these 'social' problems that I have brought up in the past, but you brush 'em under the rug when I poke fun at how they are related to the hypocrisy of your feelings. Long winded, but the bottom line is that if you have the will to see it, it is in plain view. I am willing to correct my opinions at any point that you are able to show me that I'm wrong, or have I already mentioned that?

Craig, We do have more than our share of super fund sites. That's how we know that cut, drill and dig aren't the future we want or can afford. That the EPA is making an effort in Butte is not cause for celebration; it's long overdue. Other sites, all over the country are being ignored. If super fund sites are just a money pit to you, or if homeless people in CA are just another one, then you've just confirmed all my worst expectations of you. Apparently you're OK. If someone else isn't, what concern of that is yours? Otherwise, I couldn't follow your garbled post. Keep working at it. One secret of clear writing is to have an idea you want to express. Get an idea.

So are you trying to say that Trump was the cause of long past environmental disasters, or that he has put a stop to ongoing Superfund Clean-Up projects?

Did you get rid of your truck, and cut the power lines to your house Billy, so that you aren't supporting mining and energy extraction and production?

And let's discuss all those other sites that you say are being ignored. I'd like you to tell us why it was OK for Obama to ignore them for eight long years, and particularly when your anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats controlled the House, Senate, and White House. Why didn't they do some economic stimulus projects there, and try to clean up both the environment, and also clean up the chronic high unemployment that Obama told us was going to be the new normal? Was it better to waste billions of dollars on record high Welfare and Food Stamp payments?

You are a joke Billy... a brainless Democrat sock-puppet. A gun owner who supports devout Democrat anti-gunners can't be very intelligent, so we shouldn't expect any reasoned reply from you.

https://beltmag.com/disappearance-ruffed-grouse-forests/


_________________________
Here’s an idea. Stay on topic.

My concern? It isn't any big deal, my mantra is about hypocrisy. I'm not so sure I've had any expectations of you, but haven't I 'discussed' with you about the track record of your claimed vote?

Your personal attacks against me and others you don't like don't really seem important, other than to reinforce what you believe is the ability to come together. Things are sharpening up a bit, bern or bloom, what do either offer policy wise to your great state and the nation?

My superfund example is about taking some responsibility that you lied, just kidding, about not happening. That doesn't equivocate with progressive hell holes created in recent years. Remember, wink, we like intended consequenses, if we build it they will come, never mind. In baby words, shouldn't kali have the progressive right to supersede any Montana business, because they have the ability to overwhelm you in a popular vote? And, back to what business is it of mine, please address that when you tout the benefits of bern-n-blooms nanny state. Convince me that my business is better off none of my business.

I already mentioned it in the other ruffed grouse thread currently running Lonesome, but I'll say it again. Here in my State of Pennsylvania, timber harvesting is alive and well. It is one of the largest industries in the state. And contrary to what the author of the article in your link says, there is still a vibrant timber cutting industry in many other states where grouse numbers are in a steep decline, that cannot be explained by the 11 year population cycle.

Pennsylvania is the largest producer of hardwoods in the country, accounting for 10% of the total hardwood output in the US. Revenues from Pennsylvania's forest products industry exceed $5.5 billion annually. Approximately 90,000 Pennsylvanians make a livelihood on the industry.

rocky mtn bill, the idiot that votes for Democrat anti-gunners, apparently thinks we should eliminate their jobs and put them all on Welfare and Food Stamps!

The types of cutting vary widely. There are small woodlots logged out. There is large scale clear-cutting of large tracts done by big players like Georgia-Pacific, Koppers, Collins Pine, etc. And there is selective cutting where only the best and largest mature trees are harvested. There are also hundreds of smaller logging companies including Amish Dutch crews that use draft horses to haul logs. In addition to the large amount of hardwoods cut here, there is also a great deal of pine, spruce, and Eastern Hemlock.

In short, there is a wide variety of forest in different stages of succession and maturation. The vast majority of this acreage never sees any spraying of insecticides or herbicides, so we can pretty much eliminate that as a factor in ruffed grouse breeding or survival. Hunter numbers are way down compared to 30 years ago, so the decline isn't because of excess hunting pressure or over-harvesting.

The biggest and most obvious change over the last few decades is the introduction of the Eastern Coyote, and the protection of hawks and owls. As GLS said earlier, these critters are eating machines that never quit. I disagree with ed about the influence of wild turkeys, because they seemed to co-exist with grouse quite well. But in recent years, even their numbers are way down as they too have become coyote food.

In 2019, I shot two coyote puppies near my garage, and I will put a bullet in every one I possibly can.

interesting that pa closed its late winter grouse hunting season...perhaps to reduce the impact of two legged human predators?...if so, then why not also put a winter bounty on four legged and winged predators as well?

keith, talk to some old time pa grouse hunters like myself...hopefully they will tell you that turkeys prey on grouse eggs and chicks...and while you are at it ask them how owls can destroy grouse at night when they kill them and just eat the heads...it is about choices...game regulators have chosen not preserve the ruffed grouse at the expense of other species...

I have no doubt that turkeys will eat the eggs of other ground nesting birds, along with insects, grubs, caterpillars, seeds, nuts, and just about any protein they can find during their grazing through the woods. Other than wild grapes, they were competing for many of the same food sources. I cannot recall seeing turkeys in wild grape thickets very often. Yet I can well recall many places that had good populations of both grouse and turkeys at the same time.

I can't say that I really see a much greater number of owls, but I know that they are mostly nocturnal. However, the number of hawks has exploded. I think the Game Commission finally realized that grouse numbers are at a tipping point. There was never a great number of hunters during the late season. I always tried to get out a several times, but it largely coincided with my flintlock deer hunting after Christmas. By then, when winter has set in, there are few guys in the woods, and distant shots from late season small game hunters are few and far between, so the impact on grouse was probably rather small.

When the coyotes really got into the areas I hunt, you could hear them howling at night. At the same time, I began seeing a much greater number of predator killed grouse and turkey carcasses. Turkey numbers are not as bad as grouse, but the numbers are noticeably much lower in most places. This was before we started hearing reports of bird deaths from West Nile Virus. I know that the coyote lovers don't want to have us believe our own eyes, but I'll go with hard evidence I can touch and see over feel-good theories that make little or no sense.

Ted, if the idiots in DC--BOTH parties--continue to ignore trillion dollar deficits, then I can't visualize a very good future for our grandchildren.

Craig, I'll try once more to explain your problem to you. No matter how condescending this sounds, I think your dissatisfaction with the state of the world is misplaced. You see half the problem: that things aren't what they were and that they're getting worse by the minute. What you don't see is that the decline is a direct consequence of how it was for far too long. Our problems weren't invented by progressives. We all did it to ourselves. You don't want to see anything change, but change keeps happening anyway. Denying it only makes it worse. Either we learn to manage it and figure out ways to adapt to it, or it will ultimately do without us. No politician or party will solve it all. The one clear lesson is that we must find some way to bring all our talents to bear on the issues. Magical thinking and the politics of division won't work. PS: I know this sounds pompous, and I apologize for the tone.

Morning Bill, I was curious what you thought your presumptive front runners, Sanders or Bloomberg, would do for you, your state and the nation, but sorry just saying they will change things doesn't add up to a gopher mound of substance. Can you convince my head, not my heart, to vote for the Democrat that will oppose President Trump? Factual policy aside, do you think Sanders praising the castro regime yesterday appeals to a thoughtful, united nation?

Sorry Bill, you have the wrong Craig. When did I ever say that there are no long term problems, blanket disatisfaction with the world, or that some of these long term problems were invented by progressives of recent years? I've written many times here that I have never voted for an ideal candidate, but I've never been so dumb as to cast a protest vote or not vote. I understand the upcoming vote is about today's situations going forward, not about revisionist or romaticized history.

I suspect that you perceive 'every' off topic thing that we dice about is my being stuck on half the picture, because I'm commenting about positions of the left, that you bring up. I still haven't read one thing from you about what one of your candidates will do for the US and how they will reasonably (can-o-worms) do it. So, how about this. Since we can look back, scientifically evaluate results so to speak, can you name a progessive policy that has been rejected by conservatives, yet improved some long term problem and did 'not' create a multitude more problems?

Craig, you've done a good job with this last post. I'm happy to respond. First, I think you're mistaken to call Bloomberg a front runner. He's not my preference for one. As for Sanders, I don't know what he said about Castro, but many of his goals make good sense. Higher wages for one; higher taxes on great wealth is another, and the two are connected. Any of the Democrat candidates will treat veterans and their families better and with greater respect. Any will hire and retain better staff and be open to advice and evidence. Any will improve relations with our allies. Two examples of policy progress: Social Security was and still is opposed by many Republicans while it has saved and improved the lives of countless old and poor people as well as children. Republicans warn endlessly that it's bankrupting us when a simple extension of the tax will keep it solvent forever. Legislation protecting air and water, despite being launched by Richard Nixon, have come increasingly under fire from "conservatives" because they cost money. What gets lost from them is what costs accrue from the lack of such protections, much of which is higher health care. M ost of all I'd cite the Civil Rights Act. Johnson may have come at it as politically expedient, but that detracts nothing from it's great benefits to the country. It was and is today opposed and resented by many Republicans although they're more subtle in their messages. Then there's Women's Sufferage and The ACA. Perhaps you'd like to present some examples of your own?

Craig, I looked up Sander's comments about Castro. No wonder I didn't recall them since he made them 35 years ago. I'll address them nonetheless. He's absolutely right; Castro did increase literacy and health care. Sanders may not have noted it, but Castro also helped produce a lot more doctors. Yes, those are not bad things even granted that they were achieved by a dedicated Communist.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/communist-cuba-enslaves-physicians-


________________________
This is what it sounds like...
When grouse cry.

You missed the part about the mass murder,and Fidel himself machine gunning Cubans that were trying to swim away?

You can vote socialism in, but, you have to shoot your way out, Bill.

A neighbor in my Wife's home town of Bogota escaped as a child when Castro's henchmen came looking for anyone who had spoken to the police. He ended up on a fishing boat to the Dominican Republic, put there by a friend of the family. Castro killed his entire family, and the entire family of the friend who assisted his escape, at 12 years of age. He made his way to Colombia, and weeps to this day about it.

Anyone who can lay any praise at Fidel Castro and his regime is a dolt, dumb as a hammer.

Best,
Ted

Thought this was about Ruffed Grouse. I may have missed it amongst all the I'll mannered banter, but science in my state and many others is looking at West Nile Virus as the root cause of the decline.

A controlled study showed a 1 in 10 survival of chicks inoculated. The survivors showed organ abnormalities in post study necropsies.

All of your have been 'discussed' at length, and still they fit your talking points. Suffice it to say that no, they are not absolutes or universal truths. Why'd I snip out this one? Didn't, and it ties in with many of your 'advances'. Didn't sanders face a campaign staff revolt because he refused to pay anywhere near what he says should be minimum wage, worked them relentlessly and refused to pay over time, and refused to cover health care? Wasn't warren accused by, I believe, five campaign staff members of color for creating toxic, racist work conditions? Anomalies or hypocrisy, I think niether, but a clear factual indication of the integrity of supporters, eh?

My list? Explain why we have to be force fed 'woke'. Why we have to pay for abortions for transgender males. Who decided that all kids have to be steered towards college with bribes? How about your front runner, bern, admitting that all taxes, not just the 'rich', will necessarily go up for his single payer plan, yet you refuse to acknowledge it? How about impeachment, not about your feelings, but would you accept a speeding ticket if an officer told you that he got a call from a friend that said his friend saw you speeding? Seriously, does that line of thinking apply to you or your family?

Ted, I'm no fan of Castro or Communists. All I said was he accomplished some specific things. That he did terrible other things things is not in dispute.

Craig, it interests me that you cite staff treatment as a reason to reject certain Democrats. What about Trump's treatment of Col Vindman? Or John McCain? Or his students at Trump University? Or his wives re Stormy Daniels? No one competent and qualified can work with him.He can't bear to be contradicted. Every single thing he and his fans accuse others of are the very things he himself is the worst possible example of, and yet you tolerate him. At best, it's total denial; at worst it's mental illness. Here's a prediction: between now and November, former senior staff will have a lot to say about Trump's ability to do his job, and they will not be complimentary. Bernie's not your cup of tea, but he is honest and consistent and transparent. He may be wrong on an issue, but his heart is in the right place. Trump is wrong on most every issue and his heart is MOA.

Harry, I'm with you. I'd like to know more about the roughed grouse issue. Unless there has been a big uptick in goshawks, I'm doubting predators. The West Nile thing is pretty interesting to me. What state are you in, and can you point a finger towards that study?

Ted, if Castro actually did those things, how does saying so amount to praise. A major shortcoming for conservatives is the inability to make a logical argument or to distinguish between a simple statement and an endorsement.

There’s a finger for you BrentD. Just not the one you were expecting.


________________________
The Notorious rmb

First off, an Iowa State Ecology Professor who claims to be a bird huinter, but cannot correctly spell "RUFFED GROUSE" is certainly not intelligent enough to do anything except cling to his idiotic thoughts that bird eating predators such as hawks, owls, and coyotes have a negative impact upon game bird survival and populations.

Maybe he should go over to Upland Journal, where he says it is so much better. If it is so much better, why does this crybaby spend all day on this forum?

Second, the idiot rocky mtn bill is flat out lying again, in order to continue supporting his anti-2nd Amendment Democrats.

It matters not one little bit if grouse populations recover if anti-gun and anti-hunting Democrats slowly or quickly destroy our gun rights and our hunting traditions.

Billy told you all lies when he claimed that it was Democrats that passed the Civil Rights Act that was signed by Lyndon Johnson. Ku Klux Klan Democrats fought tooth and nail against it, and it was passed by a majority of Republican votes in Congress. The earlier Civil Rights Act was also passed by Republicans.

Billy knows this because he has been informed in the past. But he chooses to continue lying about it when all it takes is a quick Google search to see who voted for and against.

He also lied about which party passed Woman's Suffrage, giving women the right to vote. He is also continuing the old tired Democrat lies about Social Security. Billy lied about Trump's support of the military as well. Trump was absolutely right to get the little snake Col. Vindman out of the White House after Vindman's false testimony in the Impeachment Hearings. Sen. John McCain was no friend to us, especially gun owners, and he was a RINO--- Republican In Name Only. Billy rails on about respect from the rest of the world when Obama was a joke that literally helped ISIS take over much of the Middle East while he did nothing. With Trump in power, we don't even hear about ISIS anymore.

rocky mtn bill knows nothing except what the DNC tells him to think. He is a brainless sock-puppet that doesn't even know what Bernie Sanders had to say about the Communist Dictator and murderer Fidel Castro. Billy is always insulting Conservatives about their perceived lack of knowledge, and says we get our information from the National Enquirer, yet he is clueless about where his anti-gun Democrat front-runners stand.

Bill, spend much time talking to Cubans? Talking to Cuban doctors?

I have a BIL who is a serious cyclist. Close to national team level when he was younger. Spends over 8 weeks a year in Cuba cycling because of the terrain and the weather. For well over 10 years now. Spends all his time with locals, not at resorts. He's had female doctors try to sleep with him as a method of getting out of the country. Imagine the conditions required to have a medical degree and still be reduced to prostituting yourself to try to escape the hell hole you are in. And let me tell you, doctors aren't the only ones willing to do anything to get out. My BIL is in his early 60's and has had mothers push their late teen daughters at him in the hopes of an escape from Cuba and a better life for them in Canada.

When are you going to tell us about the great things happening in Venezuela? Another socialist dream land.

The thing is Bill, it's a big wide world or, more importantly, country in which you could grab a 'simple statement' from. If you don't think the grass is greener somewhere else, why comingle it with your choice to lead and shape the future of the US of A? You don't believe your vote is for purchase? What do you suppose is going to happen on super tuesday, bloom is purported to be betting some four hundred million so far that you will fall in line? He's happy to reach into his pocket for his ego, but are you under the illusion that he will do the same for your gender reassignment or life critical prescriptions, knee slapper, eh?

How about them grouse, eh? I think a lot of game birds have lost habit through maximizing yield. There seem to be less brush and tree lines, bogs, rock piles. The big machinery seems to gobble up features in the land, but don't tell me I have no business going to the grocery store with expectations.

Have you been to Windsor?


___________________________
The place is horrible.
https://youtu.be/LNAhwSlJZAo

James,
Forget it. All it would require is picking up a history book, or, having paid attention for the last 60 years. It is clear to me this guy drank the Kool-Aid about the time he graduated from college, and never looked back. He believes cutting trees hurts the grouse population, Castro was a saint, and Venezuela is a paradise.

You can’t fix stupid.

Best,
Ted

CB, I never said nor believe that Cuba is a model country. I have no investment in Cuba. That doctors there are desperate to escape, I have no doubt. You share a trait with Craig-- assuming a position where none was stated or held. You'll be glad to hear I agree with Trump on Venezuela. Maduro is one bad guy. I have no illusions about communism or any affiliation with it. None of that makes Trump any better. He has no redeeming features.

Does it matter what you say? In a non 2nd. way, doesn't your vote speak more to the truth?

Craig, Ted: You're babbling again.

But what you do is support politicians (Sanders) who have expressed admiration for both those countries and others as well as the politics of their rulers. See where there is a disconnect for people like me is when you say you think Maduro is a bad guy?? Your guy Sanders supported the politics and people that brought Maduro to power, specifically Chavez.

Ted is quite correct. I would also add that it is a complete waste of time to debate a liar. In addition to supporting anti-gun Democrats, rocky mtn bill has the pathetic need to resort to blatant lies in order to undermine Donald Trump and Republicans.

The best way to shut Billy up is this: Simply ask him to prove the false points he made earlier about which Party supported the Civil Rights Acts, and which Party supported Women's Right to Vote.

Billy knows damn well he is lying to us again, and he will put his tail between his legs and run away for awhile like he always does when he gets caught in his many lies. He can never admit that he is wrong, and he certainly won't admit to bveing a liar. Neither one of those false statements could be a simple mistake, because Billy has been provided with the Republican and Democrat vote totals on those things several times in the past.

I learned this a long time ago with the anti-2nd Amendment troll King Brown. There is no sense debating a liar, or trying to change the mind of someone so invested in Socialism that they need to spread lies. Billy is cut from the same cloth.

Besides, any gun owner that votes for anti-gunners can't be wrapped too tight.

She would know.


Best,
Ted

Ted, the author of this book has denied this "quote" is true. It's in the category of the report that had her running a child prostitution operation out of a pizza shop in DC. That won't stop you from promoting it or other Republican rubes from believing it, but it might show others what an idiot you are to accept it and what sort of character you inhabit to pass it off as real.

Just for you, Bill.

But, in the actual words of Madame Secretary, “What difference does it make?”

Your crowd of rich, old, white people are arguing over second place.

Best,
Ted

If you are so concerned about the truth Billy, why are you lying to us about which Party supported the Civil Rights Act and Women's Voting Rights?

https://www.theblaze.com/contributions/in-1920-republicans-defeated-democrats-war-on-women

https://www.countable.us/articles/17557-...e-democrats-did

Why do you deny the many great things Donald Trump has done... beginning with reversing a lot of the stupid policies implemented by Obama?

I've seen a lot of crap from Liberal Left organizations like Snopes when it comes to vetting the truth. Do you remember when Snopes said it was a falsehood that the DNC did not display the American Flag at the opening of the last Democrat Convention?

Snopes said that was a lie... but then the DNC apologized for NOT displaying the American Flag.

Turns out that the very Liberal Left leaning Snopes was lying again.

But even Snopes couldn't conceal the overt life-long racism of Liberal Democrat Lyndon B. Johnson:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-voting-democratic/

I haven't heard about Hillary running a child prostitution ring out of any pizza shop. But I have heard that she defied a Congressional subpoena by deleting over 30,000 emails from an illegal private server, and that her staff smashed Blackberries and used a Bleach-Bit Program to erase hard drives containing evidence.

She also put all of her anti-gun and anti-NRA proposals right on her website... and idiot gun owners like you voted for her anyway! This in itself proves that she knows how stupid you Libtard Democrats are.

Okay, okay, you win. I suppose this isn't the floor of the house of reps, so you can hold our quotes to some higher bar, eh Bill? Did you forget that mz slip-n-fall ran for President of the US while accepting 'donations' from unknown corners of the earth through a 'foundation' based in a foreign country? Did her wife receive obscene paydays for faux speeches in rusia? Fact or fiction?

Craig, One way to test if a really outrageous story is true before you go to the trouble of Googling Fact Checker, is to see if it's about a Democrat. If it is, chances are it's propaganda from Brietbart or Russia. If it's about Trump, It's bound to be true.

bill, watt bout russia collusion an ukraine quid pro quo? turns out both those outrageous stories about trump are not true...

Good point Bill, but don't forget to look on her foundation website. The 2018 'tax' return says the US arm of the foundation received some twenty-two million in donations. But, the same website under the global initiative says the Canadian partnership has some vague value over three hundred million. What Bill, a sunshine mishap or she's just feeding hungry Canadian kids?

Shocking, eh, the drop off in donations, but things were financially rewarding during the sec-o-state and candidate stretch, huh Bill? Help me out, do you have a link to the rusian propaganda?

Looks to me as if we went from discussing grouse to grousing about politics.

Those stories are true ed. They just don't involve Donald Trump engaging in any criminal or treasonous behavior.

Obama got caught on tape offering to be flexible with Putin after the election. Then he did virtually nothing when Putin subsequently invaded the Ukraine and annexed Crimea. There was no military aid for Obama to put a hold on. All the Obama administration supplied was MRE's and blankets... and lip service.

The real quid pro quo in the Ukraine was the criminal corruption that Joe Biden and his son Hunter were engaged in. Remember what Adam Schiff, Chuck Schumer, Maxine Waters, Jerald Nadler and all the Democrats said about a million times during the impeachment circus... "Nobody is above the law" (except for anti-gun Democrats running for President)

I wonder why Billy refuses to acknowledge how the very Liberal biased Snopes lied about the non-presence of the American Flag at the start of the last Democrat Convention???... or why he runs away from his lies about which Party actually supported Civil Rights and giving women the right to vote???

Could be it's because Billy doesn't want to admit that the Party that had Ku Klux Klan members working to deny civil rights to blacks, and working to deny women's voting rights is the same Democrat Party that is working hard to take away the 2nd Amendment Rights of law abiding U.S. citizens?

You have to be a real dumbass to be a gun owner that supports and votes for anti-gunners. Unfortunately, Billy has a number of equally stupid friends here. Here's one of them now: