I have a high grade sidelock Spanish 20, that needs some help... the gun is hardly used but local gunsmith here in anchorage Alaska [ very good guy] says needs parts heat treated...which he doesn't do

any suggestions for good work at reasonable price? I also have a home in montana, so anywhere around there would work well..

a friend had someone in Indiana do excellent work like this, but my friend is even older than me and cant remember who it was !!

thanks for any suggestions

I find it somewhat odd that any good Gunsmith doesn’t do minor heat treating on small parts. That is kind of a requirement seeing how most parts will be made using a soft steel and must be hardened, or tempered (screws, pins, springs, sears, etc). A small oven, lead melting pot, hardening powder and torch aren’t really that expensive or difficult to use.
Cole Haugh is probably the guy your friend used in Indiana. He’s really good...he had an excellent teacher.
Last number I had for him: 812 654- 3209

I think MT has folks that’ll have great reputations. John King in Kila comes to mind. Any of the shops that do case coloring should be fine. Maybe, ask at the King shop or possibly call the CSharps folks or MVintage Arms for a recommendation. Good luck with it.

I have used Kasnite to harden mild steel parts. It works well with a propane torch but the results are hard but a gray low luster finish

bill

"IF" those parts needing heat-treating are made from a higher carbon steel but improperly hardened then you DO NOT want to use Kasenit on them. Kasenite is a great product that I have used on many occasions but its use is only for low carbon steels.

Perhaps the reason that gunsmith doesn't do heat-treating is hat he has no way of determining what alloy the part was made of. There can be a world of difference in heat-treating an already made part of an unknown alloy & doing one which one has just made themselves.

and this local "gunsmith" is mostly an excellent stock maker and repairer but can do small stuff.

thank you, I bet Mr. Haugh is the fellow my friend used...I will check !

+1 for 2-P.

I had one of these Spanish guns with the same problem once, I never could find out what kind of soup cans the parts were made from. There were, and are, high quality Spanish guns but mine wasn't one of them. I sold it "as is" and took the loss.
Mike

this was a high end hand detachable sidelock gun, wonderful engraving etc a friend has one just like it and it has performed perfectly for many years

you are likely right but i think i should have a serious shotgun smith take a look at it

then maybe i will just sell it as is if he concurs

i suspect you are right

Cable,what. Is the part? I can make it for you and heat treat it as well.

I am not sure, he said 'parts' so probably more than one

I will get it out of the safe and check

do you have a shoop?

I could send the gun to you to be fixed... its sure no use to me at present and I would love to put it to use

my main problem is that the gun is very very difficult to open whether it has been fired or not

ejectors work great and everything else seems good

it is a very nice well balanced light weight 20, about 6 lbs even





[ please excuse the poor cell phone pictures ]

Cable, yes I have a shop and have been making parts for all types of double guns.

Miller, please explain why adding some carbon to the surface of high carbon steel would hurt anything. Guess I was just lucky, but I've always used kasnite when doing trigger jobs, just to be safe.

Bladesmith;
Al I can truly say is that is all you know about heat-treating you most likely should not be doing it at all.

When you apply the Kasenote the part has to be heated above its critical temp. Upon quenching the base metal of high carbon will be put in its state of maximum hardness. Ordinarily, this would then be tempered or drawn to a state of approximately spring steel.

If this is done them the Kasenite hardness will be lost & of little effect. If it is not done then the base metal will be hard & brittle & apt to break.

Nuff Said

If you're starting with a high carbon steel, are you sure that carbon is being added to the surface? It might be that the carbon in the surface of the base steel diffuses towards the least resistance. Maybe, the base steel, if known, would have a specific heat treating protocol. Would that heat treatment necessarily be compatible with how someone might want to treat a case? Only thoughts.

The gun looks nicer than I had thought. Those locks look friendly for peeking inside, one might pick up on galling in spots that really aren't hard enough. I wonder if shooting up a flat at some clays would loosen things up just fine.

OK, I'll ask the question... what parts need to be heat treated, according to this local Alaskan gunsmith, and what makes him think they need to be heat treated?

You say everything works fine, so I am assuming that you aren't experiencing things like doubling due to worn sears, etc.

I think the first thing you should consider is finding a real good double gun gunsmith, and getting some hard facts about what is wrong, and what is sheer conjecture... possibly a knee-jerk reaction based upon the reputation of some Spanish guns having improperly hardened parts.

I agree completely with what Miller said about using Kasenit on high carbon steel. Anyone who knows anything about hardening and tempering would know that there is absolutely no need for a surface hardening compound on steels that, by their nature and composition, can be hardened and tempered.

I also agree with craigd about the possible cause for the gun being tight and difficult to open, whether fired or not. It looks to be in near new in box condition, as if it has seen very little use. A little break-in usage, along with some good lubricant, could make a world of difference.

i appreciate the comments. the gun probably has been fired 200-300 times. it gradually got HARDER to open. you are right, it needs the attention of a real shotgun smith, this fellow is mostly a stocker, and a very good one.

i can try shooting it some more, but it is at times almost impossible to open at all.

the opening is the only problem i have seen, and it really wasn't like that when i first got it.

Well, you can pretty much eliminate the cocking effort from compressing the main springs if it is difficult to open whether fired or not. I think a good place to start would be checking the mating surfaces of the hook and hinge pin for roughness, galling, or lack of lubrication. Old dried up grease can cause a surprising amount of resistance to free movement. Check the mating surfaces of the action knuckle and the forend iron for any roughness and old congealed lube as well. This area also needs a little lubrication.

This is all stuff that you don't really need a gunsmith to look at. The subject of correct hinge pin lubrication has been beaten to death for years here, and opinions are varied. We are opening a gun, not spinning hot turbocharger bearings at 10,000 rpm. I like a little Mobil synthetic grease, because it is good stuff, and I have plenty on hand. Unlike oils, it isn't as likely to migrate from the metal surfaces and soak my wood. Make sure to use a solvent to clean and remove any old lube. This is just regular gun cleaning maintenance, because old lube that gets contaminated with dust and grit becomes a grinding compound that will actually accelerate wear.

It just isn't that easy. The steel for the parts needs to be determined first.
2-Piper is right-on, one method could ruin some parts and another would cook the others depending upon the steel.

The owner should be ready to invest in the gunsmiths figuring it out.

How does a gunsmith analyze the steel parts to determine if they do indeed treating ? Then, how does the gunsmith decide what steel makes up the part and how to treat that steel ?

I am willing to do that, and would prefer that. and I know that you know how to do that! where are you located in montana? we have a place in bozeman, and are down there fairly often. i could run this over or maybe i should just ship it to you and see if you think it can be made usable ?

let me know please

It’s a Spanish side lock made during that period of time when the problems of poorly finished and unhardened parts seemed to be endemic to the industry.

Just about any of the Spanish shotgun service centers that operated during that era had to make the same sets of repairs.

I’m guessing that the first gunsmith that pops the locks off Saw some parts that were peening , or were bent, both of which were problems people that had Spanish shotguns in the 1980s faced frequently.

Fixing this one isn’t going to require rocket science.

It’s never going to be a high volume target gun, too delicate. Just make it work, and use it when you feel the urge.

I doubt using the gun is going to make it better.

Cole Haugh told me he pretty much rehardens everything Spanish that comes back in for work. You are going to need somebody to get in and work on the guts. Dewey Vicknair had an AYA number 2 come in for a spring, and took photos of the original and his replacement, and posted them on his blog. Good information, and it got me over ever wanting a Spanish sidelock.
Your gunsmith told you the truth, and if he is busy enough with wood and stocking guns, more power to him. You just have to find a qualified guy to do the metal work. Several names have been mentioned.

Good luck.

Best,
Ted

Sorry, it sounds like a problem that requires more that I care to invest. The primary way we determine existing steel type is by experimenting and I don't care to enter into that. Best of luck, I think anyone that would take it in would face the same issues.

Unknown steel small parts?? Spark test might be useful, otherwise;
Heat to your cherry red, quench in oil, File test for hardness.
Full hard, temper to hardness required.
Sorta hard, maybe A-2, Reharden at higher temperature and temper or use as is.
No hardness, mild steel, caseharden the part, probably the best.
Casehardening medium to high carbon steel will almost guarantee failure due to brittleness.
Chuck

Maybe, recheck the steel type? I think A2 can air harden to a high hardness.

Agree, A-2 is tough to air harden in a home shop without proper equipment.
Chuck

since i am unsure what the problem is [ i am a good physician and diagnostician but not the least a gunsmith ] i called Cole Haugh. he works on a lot of spanish guns, and seems to have the knowledge to diagnose and treat the poor little 20

sending it out today, and hope it will be well soon.

thanks to everyone! i should have asked you folks several years ago, rather than leaving it in the safe

That is a smart move.
And, a tremendous opportunity to learn about "Holland pattern" Spanish side by sides.

just follow up: Cole Haugh fixed it very nicely. need firing pins shortened, stoned barrel lugs, a little polishing and lube esp of hinge. he said it was very nicely finished inside, the locks were great, all parts nicely polished, no problems with needing heat treating, etc the opening lever needed a little polish work.... and it needs to be shot … a lot !!!

got it back a couple of weeks ago, just works perfectly. he charged very little... I paid him more than he invoiced me. very very pleased. thanks for the recommendation !

Glad it worked out.
Shoot on!