I have a question regarding muzzles touching. I've read a few times on here that often a sign that barrels may have been cut is if the barrels aren't touching , or nearly touching at the muzzles. Granted there are some guns that were made where the muzzles did not come close to touching. My question is, if barrels were cut, how far back could they be cut and still have muzzles touching? The particular gun I'm wondering about is a muzzleloading "coach gun" from circa 1860. The barrels are 24" and the muzzles touch. However, the top filler between the barrels is missing but you can see a bit of solder where it looks like it was soldered there. And the muzzles are pretty darn level across. If this wasn't a "factory" coach gun, the barrels would likely have been 28" to 32" long. Would the muzzles still touch if cut back to 24"?

Shoot it.
Do the patterns cross...left barrel shoots right etc.
Has it been jug choked off center to correct?
A picture is worth.......

Can't shoot it as I'm playing around with it as a project right now. But here are some pics. It has the ramrod stop on the bottom rib where it should be as well as the front sight bead looks to be in the location as one would expect. Someone told me that barrels can touch together as far back as 20" from the breech to the muzzles. If that is true it kind of blows the theory of telling if a gun has been cut back if it was only cut back an inch or two if the muzzles could still touch.

The bead looks a bit off center, as well as too far back.
Karl

It's my photo making the bead look off center. It's not. It is 3/8" back from the muzzles.

As a comparison, here are 2 sets of Damascus barrels. Both are exactly the same length (28"). Both have lost the fillers. The muzzles touch on both. The one has the bead almost an inch back from the muzzles. In these examples, the barrels on the left (older set) are opened choked. The barrels on the right that has lost both upper and lower fillers and with the bead further back, looks to be choked full and modified.

The ramrod stop is soldered on crooked.

I guess the main question I have though is would the muzzles still touch if the barrels have been cut back to 24" from 28 or 30". There is a thread running right now in the German gun forum regarding a double barrel. The barrels are at 29 1/2" and it is suspected that they have been cut a short bit. The muzzles are nowhere close to touching on it. I would have suspected that that would be the case with this muzzleloader as well if cut that far back ,or for any gun for that matter.

I just cut back one of those 28" sets of Damascus barrels to 24". Should have thought about that before. Quite a gap between the muzzles. Nowhere close to touching.

I grabbed the wrong set of barrels when I cut the first ones. They were 30" barrels so I cut off 6", not 4. This set of barrels were 28". Cutting off 4" and the barrels are still almost touching. So, it is entirely possible to whack off 4" or so and still have muzzles touching. For the condition these damascus barrels were in, all 3 sets rang nice and clear and, from what I can see looking in the space, the barrels don't look that bad under the rib. I should remove the top ribs and have a good look.

"Normally" the barrels of a double were straightened prior to joining. I joining they were set to converge from breech to muzzle. This would ordinarily mean the barrels did not touch for any distance behind the muzzles. Having a desire to check this several years ago, but not wanting to saw off my barrels I did the following;

I marked the barrels at several increments beginning at the muzzles & going back a few inches. At each mark, I measured the OD of each barrel & then the width across both barrels. On every gun I checked the width across the barrel was greater than the sum of the ODs of the two barrels. This means that each one that I checked would have had a gap between the barrels at any point behind the muzzles.

As I learned though, many, many years ago in Elementary English Grammer "There are Exceptions to All Rules"

Check out the barrels in "After 100-150 years" thread. They look like they are touching for a long distance behind the muzzle.

I'm having a hard time geometrically understanding how SxS barrels designed to have crossing shot about 20 - 30 yards out....longer perhaps for SxS rifles...can be touching more than a couple of inches behind the muzzles. It should be a pretty simple geometry problem. I'll work it out on graph paper and post it here.

Understand that, even though doublegun barrels are not struck this way, it would be possible for the barrels to touch all the way from the breech to the muzzles yet still have considerable convergence built in, if they had a straight profile taper. Convergence is based upon the center-line of the bore of each barrel. The outer profile of the barrels are what touch, or do not. They are tapered on the outside, towards the muzzles ........thicker at the breech, thinner at the muzzle.

Note that I am not saying barrels are assembled with them touching together all the way, under the ribs. I'm just using the extreme example to illustrate the concept. I.e., take two disassembled shotgun barrels, hold them together so that they are touching at the muzzles and also at the breech. If they are tapered like all I've ever seen are, there will be convergence. The hard part is regulating the amount of convergence to match the lateral movement, in recoil, of the individual barrel being fired.

If it's hard to perceive this, draw a set of barrels on a piece of paper, with a straight edge, and see for yourself.

SRH

Based on your explanation Stan and the pictures in the other thread, it should be obvious that even though muzzles touch the barrels could have been cut.

Except that you have to keep in mind that each set of barrels was profiled by an individual. It's not important how much the barrels are separated at 4", 14" or 20" from the muzzle. Heavy striking, to make the barrels as light as possible, can "separate them from each other" to a greater degree, or for a longer portion of their length. But, to address your specific scenario ......... yes, the barrels could have been cut and still touch. It's not impossible, but with the way most gunmakers I am familiar with joined them, it is unlikely. Most American guns that I have seen with cut barrels have muzzles that do not touch.

To further complicate the deal, Not all doubles with original length barrels have muzzles that touch. I have several that do not.

SRH

Sometimes, muzzles more than touch.

BrentD - I have a Verney Carron 12ga with barrels as you have pictured. If you look carefully you can see where one barrel has a concave to accommodate the other barrel. Barrel regulation?

I suspect it was all about regulation.
It would be interesting to see if that is more Common in early rifles. This is about 1830.

Could it be maker preference during original construction? Wouldn't it be labor intensive to put a concave into only one barrel. One would think a maker would have a basic build layout and that regulation, if needed, would be more subtle than if those muzzle loading barrels started off as uniformly round?

I have never cut barrels back and do not intend on doing so, but will a gun that is in good regulation likely still be in good regulation after a significant shortening?

I should add, I am thinking only of shotguns here, not double rifles.

Muzzles touching is nice, and attractive, but not necessary for good shooting. I have observed newly made high-end guns with a full eighth-inch solder-filled gap at the muzzles (and happy people shooting them!).