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Posted By: LetFly Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/25/20 08:20 PM
I am seeking information on my very early Westley Richards fowling piece. This is a ~13 bore muzzle loading shotgun. Serial number (only number located 2743 on inside of lock plates and barrel). This gun is complete including the loading rod. I have found a small amount of information on this piece by way of a similar WR photo in the DG&SS Journal Vol.8, Issue 2, Page 129. However, I have not come across any information on a model this early in the WR production. A notable feature is the split breech block and lack of flash protectors on the fences (may have been burned away over almost two centuries of use). These are key differences from the gun in the DG&SS article.

I regularly shoot this WR and use it for dove shooting each fall. The barrels are sound as I they have been subject to radiography at an state of the art welding and engineering research center. While the bore is rough, it is sound.

If you are knowledgeable as to early Westley Richards firearms I would appreciate hearing from you.

Photos (see the following post)

Posted By: LetFly Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/25/20 08:28 PM
Ok, my attempt at adding photos via the url link is not successful. I have read the FAQ and still do not know how to get this accomplished. Help.
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/25/20 08:44 PM

Those are not the URL links to photos. If they were you could copy and paste them into an address bar and get to the photo, which you cannot.
Posted By: LetFly Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/25/20 08:57 PM
Westley Richards Photos: (ok, I know how to use this feature, thanks for the help)










Posted By: LetFly Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/25/20 09:00 PM
I now have a photo sharing app. Thanks.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/26/20 02:18 PM
LetFly,
The photos didn't open, I got error notices.
Mike
Posted By: skeettx Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/26/20 06:46 PM
No that is not the correct way smile

You must have a photohoster and not your personal computer

https://www.jpgbox.com


is what I currently use

Mike
Posted By: Gregdownunder Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/26/20 09:34 PM
https://imgur.com/
Seems fine once I figured out how to use it.
Posted By: LetFly Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/27/20 01:47 AM
Thanks, I will get this figured out and get the photos up.
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/27/20 05:25 AM
I'm not familiar with MS Onedrive but it seems to be a cloud file hosting service similar to Dropbox and that won't work.

Upload them to a image host like Imgur or ImgBB. The you'll get the proper address for a BBS.
Posted By: LetFly Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/27/20 03:50 PM
Thanks.
Posted By: wootang Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/28/20 09:26 PM
Hi from across the pond.
From the WR book in pursuit of the best gun, s/n 2060-3913 were produced between 1830-38.
From Nigel brown's book British Gunmakers vol 2, the s/n would suggest 1833/4.
So some correlation on dates, certainly an early gun and the slab sided hammers would be from that era. Not sure where the fences have gone? sure they would have been there as made.
The makers script on the locks look very similar to another old WR i was offered recently, but this had Belgian proof marks, so i was wary and did not purchase. Would be interested to see a photo of your proofs under the barrels.
Incidentaly, WR provide a dating and certification service, details on their website, and includes a copy of the original build ledger too. Very pleased with their service which dated my gun to 1841.
Cheers
Posted By: Steve Helsley Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/29/20 05:00 AM
A caution about dating by serial number.

Twenty years ago, I sought serial number information from Westley Richards. The number was 4477. I got a nice letter from them indicating they had located three no.4477s in their ledgers. All were shotguns. My 4477 was a "Monkey-tail" rifle (sporting model). The lock plate is dated "1874." Photos are in Winfer's book "British Single Shot Rifles - Volume 4. "

I have extensive experience with serial numbers for both Rigby and William Powell & Son arms. Until you locate the day book entry for the sale, you can't be sure of when a particular item was sold. Additionally, there can be a 40 year gap or more between manufacture and sale.
Posted By: Mike Harrell Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/29/20 10:24 AM
Doesn't really matter when it was sold. Main date is when it was made.
Posted By: LetFly Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/29/20 03:24 PM
Thanks to all for your replies.
I few years back when I was in London I stopped and provided my serial number along with a few photos and their response was polite but they told me their records showed my number as a WR rifle. They did not show much interest in learning more about this shotgun. I presume this is because it is not of the highest grade. So we have some agreement on the record books from that far back in time. Also as I have studies the geometry of the breech balls, nipples and hammers, there could not have been any flash fences as there is not enough room for hammer clearance.

Here I have added a couple of photos showing the WR proof stamps from the barrels.

Both barrels


Closer look #1


Closer look #2


Slip or two piece breech block. This must be very early in WR design and production. In all of my reading from the DGJ&SS and my library I have not found a photo with this design for the breech block.


Barrels Stub Twist (Am I correct?)
Posted By: Steve Helsley Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/29/20 04:48 PM
Let Fly,
My first impression was that it might be a conversion from tube fire.

Mike,
I agree that ' when it was made' is important. However, a definition is necessary. Is the
'birth date' when the receiver was forged, filed, serial number applied, etc? Or is the
date when the gun was assembled, finished and ready for sale?
Posted By: wootang Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/29/20 07:00 PM
Letfly,
They certainly appear to be Birmingham proof marks.
The "split" standing breech appears as only the width of the lock plates, the main section being solid, an unusual feature or modification from an earlier system as Steve suggests.
Ref the fences, maybe replacement hammers necessitating removal of the upper flash sections to allow strike to the nipples? as part of a modification? shame...
Posted By: LetFly Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/30/20 03:25 AM
Wootang,
The breech is split into two separate pieces, a top and bottom, secured by a through bolt. The top half includes the recess for the barrel hooks and the top strap. The lower section is the lower half of the frame. As for flash fences close examination shows none existed as the breech balls are split into two separate halves with no provision for flash fences. The flat side hammers are original. The only hardware not original are the hammer screws and nipples. The ram rod is also original.
Posted By: wootang Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/30/20 12:29 PM
Hi LetFly,
Most intriguing! Would it be possible to add a couple of close up pics of the nipple cups from above, the standing breech with barrels and locks removed showing the split and one of the hammers resting on the nipples from side with no leather insert (to see the relative strike angle).
Posted By: LetFly Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/31/20 05:28 AM
A few more photos from the WR. The barrels have a three digit number stamped on each of the barrel breech plugs/hooks as on the barrels with the proofs.







Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/31/20 11:57 AM

Years back I owned a very similar 13 bore Westley Richards.

The hammers look to be replacements of some sorts and I'd say someone ground off the flash protectors.

The platinum is worth more than the gun.
Posted By: wootang Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/31/20 01:02 PM
Hi Letfly
nothing too unusual about the standing breech. Thought you meant it was split horizontally and in two sections.
Judging by the way the hammers sit at the nipples, something ain't right as they should hit the cap squarely. I would agree that these are probably not the original hammers, and there may well have been some doctoring to the flash guards to allow these hammers to function on this gun.
can't offer any more i'm afraid. enjoy shooting it, but keep an eye on the wood behind the breech....
Posted By: LetFly Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/31/20 01:42 PM
Thanks for the information and interest. Is there any way to identify the hammers as replacements. These appear to be cast steel from inspection of the backside (see earlier photo). And you are correct the wood is fragile, especially under the breech block. If you are interested I will add a radiography photo of the barrels showing the detail of the barrel walls from breech to muzzle?
Posted By: wootang Re: Very Early Westley Richards ? - 01/31/20 01:56 PM
I think the only way to judge hammer originality would be the style, general fit, geometry and maybe engraving style and match to the rest of the ironwork. As i mentioned earlier, the slab sides seems right for 1830's style.
The radiograph would be great as a general interest item, thanks.
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