In the realm of an A&D boxlock, what traits does a pigeon gun have that differ from "regular" guns i.e. size, weight, barrel wall thickness, bolting mechanism, etc.? I get the idea from hearing people talk about pigeon guns, that they are somehow better, or more rare, so I am trying to learn about the pigeon gun variant. Thanks.
Many pigeon guns have NO SAFETY
That’s like asking what a beautifully woman looks like. Taste differ but he goes my list.
32” preferred but 30” might work, heavy proofs.
Full and Full chokes
Two triggers
Weight 8 plus pounds, 81/2+ even better
I like a stock with 1 1/4” drop at comb. 1 1/2” the max.
POW or pistol grip. I just don’t shoot straight grips as well.
Some have long chambers and side clips.
Capt. A.W. Money (aka Bluerock) went on at great lengths to make the case for 30-inch barrels. For many years the max weight allowed was eight pounds, so many are in the 7 pound 12 to 15 ounce range. Seven pounds thirteen ounce, straight grip, no safety, 32-inch full and full, chambered for 3-inch shells, 14 7/16" x 1 7/16" x 2 3/8" --
On English/European guns most likely a third fastener, and side-clips.
Modern pigeon guns I’ve seen are O/U. Perazzi for us ‘PO folk, and rich people like Fabbri shotguns. A 32” Perazzi with tight chokes and relatively light barrels makes a pretty awesome live bird gun, imho. In terms of the old guns, they were heavier than the game guns and many had a raised rib, sometimes hand-filed. I have a 20 ga #2 Holland with a raised rib; I’m pretty sure it’s an old pigeon gun. It’s a heavy gun, built like a tank. If you use your imagination, you would almost say it was a 20 built on a 12 ha frame. It has no side clips, but it does have a 3rd bite, proofed for 2 3/4” shells and stamped LC.
Vintage pigeon guns, as differentiated from those that sellers call pigeon guns to attract attention from potential buyers, are heavy guns (8 lbs. +, in England), to absorb the recoil of the 3 3/4-1 1/4 oz. loads used by serious shooters (even heavier loads were common in earlier days). They are long barreled, 30" being the minimum, and going to 34" at the extreme ......... with 30"-32" being very common. They are often single triggered, usually pistol gripped, often side-clipped, always tightly choked (if original), often proofed for 1 1/4 oz., often chambered for longer shells (3" +)and stocked high in the comb to help with the rise of the flyer out of the trap. Boxlocks and hammerless sidelocks are often built without a safety.
They're purpose built guns, with no effort spared to please the buyer, who may have certain eccentricities. They're not the same as a waterfowler, which may weigh in upwards of 10 lbs., but often found with many of the same attributes, other than being stocked high in the comb.
Oh, one more thing ............... they are mesmerizing to a few of us.
SRH
Remington's Pigeon Gun from the two 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalogs --
Husqvarna --
W & C Scot & Son --
James Woodward --
Thanks All. What prompted the question was a gun I have from a barter with a good friend:
Skimin & Wood BLNE
12ga
30” f/f steel
Raised rib
8 lbs 3 oz
Hidden third fastener
Clipped fences
Nitro proof to 1 1/4 oz
2 3/4”
LOP 14 1/4”
DAC 1 1/2”
DAH 2 1/8”
POW grip
I wondered about this because of its weight, and how much heftier it is than the other boxlocks in the house right now. It’s neat. I like it and am blessed. Sounds like a pigeon gun to me.
Could also be a heavy waterfowl double. If it has no safety you might lean towards the ring and if it has a safety it still could be a gun for the ring or for the marsh.
Forgot to add: double triggers and it has a safety, which is automatic.
It’s likely not a pigeon gun if it has an automatic safety, I’m guessing. Maybe water fowl gun?
Back in the day, I shot a Perazzi SC3 with 31" barrels and a Winchester Model 21 with 32" barrels. Both extremely heavy guns capable of shooting the stout pigeon loads.
I have been lucky to have a good friend who is a connoisseur of fine English Best pigeon guns and I have gotten to shoot Purdey's, Boss, Woodward, Atkin and several pigeon hammer guns. He once owned a Purdey Pigeon hammer gun that was owned by King Alfonso of Spain.
I believe there was an article about it in the DGJ once.
I am presently thinking of a project for a English hammer gun I have recently came upon but not sure it is worth the effort since things like this is a thing of the past. So I may end up just trying to sell it.
Bill I would say you have the makings of a pigeon gun.
As an interesting note, Remington offered:
Remington Model 3200 Live Bird Competition Over/Under Shotgun
under 300 made from 1979-1983
It had 28" barrels and an engraved pigeon on the bottom of the receiver.
Not a political correct venture for sure!
The PETA correct version of pigeon shooting today is Helice/ZZ bird. In many ways it is a harder game. A well stocked pigeon gun is the right tool for that game although the rules have toned down the cartridge power and thus recoil generated.
I think they were looking at the European market. They made several small runs of upgraded 3200 guns. The Live Bird was one of them. Nice guns but nothing that much better that a 1 of 1,000 level gun.
My home club, Deep River used to offer ZZ shoots till equipment failure resulted in it stopping.
To bad there are no places on the East coast close to me to shoot Helice.
I really loved the game. Yes it is harder than pigeon shooting since a pigeon comes out of the trap slow and gains speed where a Helice target come off the trap real fast and loses speed.
It seems to tick all the boxes. As with most rules there are exceptions. I have a live pigeon gun with automatic safety, 30 inch barrels, 2 3/4" chambers, side clips, third cross bolt fastener, full and extra full chokes , flat file cut rib, half pistol stock and ejectors. Oddly I also have a 16 bore that fits in every way with the above criteria of a pigeon gun. Probably built as a one off in that bore. Lagopus…..
To add a bit more thread drift, helice venues are growing and it is a great game w/present loads limited to 28 grams and no shot larger than #7.5's here, but FITASC says 2.7mm or .106" maximum which would be #7.
You can find a partial listing of US venues here:
https://www.ushelice.com/On another note, the World Cup is being held in Rome this year. The US will be well represented and I believe there will be 12 persons representing us who will be headed that way in the next few days. An interesting aside is that if you think you are good enough or even if you don't and have not qualified for a spot on the US team, you may show up at a World Cup & shoot anyway. Same apples for any of the open USHA shoots held here; some are qualification matches from which team members are selected and some are just races, but they are all always good fun.
Also, there have been huge improvements in both machines & targets over the past several years and there are machines now that can and do load automatically from magazine of targets allowing larger shoots to go smoothly & w/o the tedium of having to manually reload them after each shooter. Where single target traps are in use, they usually limit the number of shooters so the races can be completed in a reasonable amount of time.
A 16g L.C. Smith No. 2 with no safety. It is possible it was ordered as such for traditional southern quail plantation shooting, rather than Live Birds. I don't know the chokes.
Here's another. Homer Clark's Ithaca NID 5E with which he won the 1948 Live Bird World Championship
Hemingway's W. & C. Scott & Son; at Club de Cazadores del Cerro, Rancho Boyeros, Cuba. He also used a Model 12 at the rings
I should have qualified my earlier post with the caveat that pigeon guns can be anything the gunner wants them to be. I was not there when this happened, but when the big flyer shoot of the year was held at Malloy's, years ago, it is told that a hunter from, I believe, PA, was urged to go to it and enter because he was such a good shot on game birds. He was a working man, a logger if I recall correctly, and had a mortgage on his home (not the financial condition of most serious flyer shooters). He arrived on the day before the shoot began so as to get acclimated to the "game" he had never competed in. There was a lot of side betting going on as he shot his first flyers of his life. His wife had pleaded with him to not throw away the house payment on shooting pigeons.
After the first day it is said that he called his wife and told her not to be concerned about the house payment ............... in fact, "Don't be concerned about the house at all. I've won enough money to pay off the mortgage already". He went on to win the whole shoot with ................. a Rem. 1100.
If this much circulated story is inaccurate I would appreciate anyone with firsthand information correcting it.
Anyone who really wants to learn the history of pigeon shooting, and pigeon guns, should buy Cyril's book. It is not cheap, but it is priceless.
SRH
For those who "No Hablan Espanol"-- Club of the hunters on the hill. I have read that Hemingway won more $ on live birds with his Model 12 that with any of the other 12 bores he owned and shot: An Early Browning Superposed, the W. & C. Scott he bought used in Italy following WW2- and a very high grade Beretta sidelock, even a pair of Merkels with extra barrel sets. RWTF
Maybe he shot more matches with the 12?
The 22 men who went twenty-five straight at the 1901 Grand American Handicap at Live Birds, arrow pointing at Ansley H. Fox with his Winchester Model 1897 --
I went to Malloy’s a couple times in the ‘old days’ Stan. I saw a man from PA win the shoot, but it was with a Model 21....and he knew how to operate it. Maybe not the same guy? Jon Kruger was there too. Malloy’s was quite a place. Of course, protesters were there too, but outside the entrance. Food was fabulous and the poker games were unreal. Calcutta’s were huge money.
Could you have meant a Model 12, buzz? If so, that could have been the same guy. As I said, I heard it secondhand (or third hand
).
Jon won it one time, probably with a K gun, not sure. That is a great story, and everything about it is typically Jon Kruger. He left there with his winnings and went directly to Argentina. He took a paper bag full of cash on the airplane there and back, an obscene amount. When his sponsor, who is a close friend of mine, asked him why he did such a thing (carrying that much out of the country) he replied "What the h--- was I supposed to do, leave it in a locker at the airport?". Typical Jon.
One great pigeon shooter I would have like to have known was Billy Perdue. One of the members here was a close friend of Billy's and traveled with him to many pigeon shoots, both here and abroad. Billy shot S x Ss .......... and won a lot with them.
SRH
Here is the list of shooters, guns and loads that goes with Dave's image; from
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll2/id/42076Note most of the loads were 1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dr.Eq. - in 8# guns.
E.C. Griffith is far right, and won both the 1901 GAH at Live Birds and the GAH at Targets
The gun Griffith used at the GAHs in 1901 was a Parker DH 30" straight grip choked IM/IM and ordered in 1898. His 2nd Parker was an AAH SN 104021 shipped December 13, 1901 with 32" Whitworth barrels, pistol grip stock, with special instructions, "no safety, no butt, put gold shield on side of stock 'Presented to E. C. Griffith, Pascoag, RI By Parker Bros'". The gun was returned in 1902 to be re-stocked with a straight grip and to install Silver pad.
I was able to participate in a Live Bird shoot in Colonia Caroya near Cordoba, Argentina several years ago. The event was small maybe 30 or so shooters over two rings. The boxes were the iron drop down sort where a kid rolled a botchi ball into it should the pigeon balk.
The shooters were mostly Italian decent and largely farmers.
The entrance fee was reasonable $20 or so and you bought pigeon tickets for two bucks that went to the guy that owned the birds.
The guns were mostly SxS's and very classy although I didn't want to look a fool by examining any. The grounds were manicured like a golf course with a nice kiosk that served lomitos (sandwich) beer, wine and soft drinks.
I was greeted warmly and the word was passed that this was now an International Tournament! I had brought my 32TC for such an occasion, bought a 10 pack of Italian pigeon loads (NO BS here) and headed to my first trap. I got the 32 ready called "listo" then heard a big clunk as the box opened on the left side of the field--I made my shot and hit the bird square! This advanced me to the second field where I totally let the excitement take over-I missed my second bird. I was allowed one more miss to stay in the running. I got set-up for my third bird, it showed--it was a pure white pigeon! It flew low and in front of the white painted wall/sign, I missed again. All agreed that the white bird was a real tough break!
I got a beer and a terrific memory!
It is worth noting that turn-of-the-century Pigeon Guns mostly had straight stocks, which were occasionally referred to as a "Pigeon Stock".
1894 ad for the Smith Pigeon Gun
Things started changing after Fred Gilbert won both the First DuPont Grand Smokeless Championship Handicap Live-bird Tournament October 1895 and the “E.C.” Powder Co. (Target) Tournament May 1896 with a Smith. The “Fred Gilbert Specifications” were for a drop at comb of 1 3/8 inches; at the heel, 2 inches; length from trigger to heel, 14 1/4 inches; trigger to toe 14 1/2 inches; and trigger to center of butt 14 inches; with a
full pistol grip and 30-inch full choke barrels; very "modern" dimensions.
Guns, shotshells and loads at the 1895 DuPont shoot
Dimensions of the 1897 Tournament grade; DAC 1 3/4” & DAH 1 13/16”; from
Sporting Life June 26 1909
Jay Graham won Gold at the 1912 Olympic games with a straight stock Remington Pump
As late as this 1923 ad Trap models still had straight stocks
William Bruce Leffingwell,
The Art of Wing Shooting: A Practical Treatise on the Use of the Shotgun, 1895
http://books.google.com/books?id=e34EmE3tkfkC The king of all pigeon shooters is “Capt. Jack” (John L.) Brewer of Philadelphia.
Mr. Brewer said to the author:
“The secret of pigeon shooting is to kill the birds quickly, they must not be permitted to become hard birds; the quicker the first barrel is fired the better, and the second must follow before the bird is forty yards from the shooter. I can't say that I admire these long kills, because the fact that a man makes a long kill shows that he was slow in the use of the first or second barrel, and that won't do in pigeon shooting.”
“A pigeon gun should be a modified choke — both barrels. The first barrel being bored a little closer than a cylinder, and the second a little more open than a full choke. Bored in that manner, the first barrel will kill the bird within from thirty-five to thirty-seven yards, and the second up to forty yards, and the pigeon ought not be permitted to get beyond that distance when the second barrel is fired. A man must take every legitimate advantage in pigeon shooting. A modified choke gives that advantage, and when a man uses a full choke he handicaps himself.”
“A gun for pigeon shooting should weigh from 7 1/2 to anywhere under 8 pounds. It should be heavy at the breech, with a long and very straight stock, having a drop from 2 to 2 1/2 inches at the butt. These straight stocks are desirable, because they cause one to shoot high, something which is essential, as there is a tendency to undershoot, and nearly every pigeon is missed by shooting under or behind. A pigeon gun should be bored to shoot a trifle high. Birds going from the trap are almost invariably rising, and as there is an almost uncontrollable tendency to aim at a straight-away bird, one should hold a trifle over.”
Brewer who stood very straight, which was atypical then
Probably back in the 1970s, I saw an E grade Lefever which was likely a Piegon gun. It was 12 gauge 30" barrels, straight stock & no Safety. It did not appear to have ever had a safety IF the slot had been welded it was a fantastic job with no visible evidence.
Unfortunately, the wood at least had been refinished & whoever did it rounded over every corner & when it didn't fit up properly had filled in the gaps with plastic wood. It made one just want to cry to see such a gun ruined like that. It had a price tag on it as if it were in superb condition so I left it in the rack.
More turn-of-the-century pigeon gun dimensions
In Feb. 1898, C.W. Budd received on consignment a Parker $400 AAH Pigeon Gun SN 87449 with 30” Whitworth barrels F/F and 2 7/8” chambers. LOP was 14” and DAH 2 1/4” with a pistol grip stock and no safety. It weighed 7# 12 oz.
April 18, 1908 Thomas S. Dando, Gun Editor
Sporting Life The generally accepted drop of stock in a pigeon gun is from 2 to 2 1/4 inches. If the gun is more crooked, you can not handle it so quickly. This is especially true with fast birds. In England, where the birds are much faster, the guns are straighter yet. You could learn to shoot a straight-stocked gun in two or three afternoons and you would never use a crooked one again.
Parker #150583, a CHE with 32" Acme steel barrels, 2 7/8" chambers, no safety, “extra full comb”, and Silvers pad was completed for J.H. Anderson August 6, 1909 with a straight grip, DAC 1 7/16”, DAH 2 1/4” and LOP 15”.
Dr. William A. Bruette,
Guncraft: Guns, Ammunition, Wing & Trap Shooting, 1912 “Hints on Trapshooting”
https://books.google.com/books?id=5g51K93as84C&pg=PA159&dqA close shooting gun is necessary for trap shooting. It must be heavy enough to handle a larger load than is used in the field, without excessive recoil, for it is not unusual to fire a couple of hundred shots in an afternoon at the traps. A good duck gun will answer all of the requirements of the average trap shooter, as it is usually closely bored and heavy enough to take up the recoil. However, if the gun is to be purchased especially for trap shooting, let it be a twelve gauge, 7 1/2 to 8 pounds in weight, with barrels at least thirty inches long. Some of the best shots use 32 to 34 inches. The stock should be longer than that used in the field, as the gun is placed at the shoulder before the word to pull is given, and also straighter, for the clay target usually is rising when fired at. The drop of stock used by trap shooters varies from 1 3/8 to 1 5/8 at the comb and 2 to 2 3/4 inches at the heel, the length of arm depending upon the arms of the shooter.
Trap shooters, even those with thick faces, are partial to stocks thicker and fuller in the comb than those used in the field.
In the field a man shoots with his head more or less erect, but the trap shot glues his face close to his stock, and the latter should be of such size and contour that when the shooter's cheek is resting firmly on the stock his eye is looking straight down the barrel. His cheek tells him that his eye is looking right and he swings his gun into place with his right hand, for the hand without conscious thought will always follow the eye.
Therefore, to recapitulate, the gun for trap shooting should weigh from 7 1/2 to 8 pounds, be of twelve gauge, full choke, with a straighter and longer stock and a fuller comb than that ordinarily used for field shooting.
Stan, no, it was a 32” Model 21. Prob not the same fellow or date. There are lots of very good pigeon shooters from PA.
I don't know what the "old days" were at Malloy's, but two guys I can think of that shot heavy 32" Model 21s at pigeons were J.B. "Cap" Grier and Howard Miller. But they shot a while back, probably when Jon Kruger was in diapers. I own J.B. Grier's Model 21 and it will still kill a pigeon. Oddly, Howard's Model 21 and Cap Grier's gun were consecutively numbered.
buzz, do you know if Jon won the shoot at Malloy's before he had the accident with the exploding ping pong balls, or after?
SRH
It’s likely not a pigeon gun if it has an automatic safety, I’m guessing. Maybe water fowl gun?
I'd tend to agree buzz. But from the replies thus far, it seems that you could call a lever action .30-30 a pigeon gun if you felt so inclined. Come to think of it, I shot quite a few pigeons with a Daisy CO2 pistol that I brought into a steel mill years ago, because they were shitting all over the overhead cranes I had to repair. PETA would not have approved.
Stan, I am a bit curious- what was the deal with the exploding ping pong balls? Sounds a bit like a EOD situation.. RWTF
Fox,
Kruger lost a major part of his trigger hand many years back when he was just coming to prominence in sporting clays by messing around w/homemade explosives.
He compensated for the disability very well!
Yep, he uses a velcro glove to grip the gun, and little finger to pull the trigger. Impressive determination.
Jon filled the pp balls with some compound that would explode upon impact of the shot. He was an exhibition shooter at sporting events, and would throw them up and shoot them, giving a boom! and visual effect. He held the shotgun on one hand as he threw them underhanded. He mistakenly hit the buttstock of his shotgun with the balls in the other hand, which exploded upon impact with the stock. He lost every digit on that hand except his thumb and pinky finger. He pulls the trigger with that pinky. When Jon was in his prime he won nearly every sporting event in the US shooting that way. He struggled with a terrible flinch for much of his competitive career, and finally went to a release trigger a few years ago. Funny thing, the way he utilizes it ....... most release trigger shooters pull the trigger as they call "Pull!", then release it when the lead looks right. Jon doesn't pull it until just before he wants the shot to trigger, then instantly releases it.
I developed the same kind of flinch a couple years after getting serious about sporting. I asked him one day at a big shoot if he would work with me on my flinch. He laughed and answered "Who's gonna help ME!?" Both of our flinches were similar. We just couldn't get the trigger to pull when our brain said shoot. It is like a short circuit of an electrical system. I could usually recover and break the bird late, but it brought no small amount of amazement to my shooting buddies, and no small amount of consternation for me.
SRH
It looks like in UK by the 1883 season, according to Holt's shooting calendar, the weight of pigeon guns was limited to 7lbs 8 Oz according to the Hurlingham Club rules..by far the most influential club in England:
This was advertised by several pigeon gun makers, most notably Reilly who won the majority of matches in 1882:
There are several posts on DGS of Cyril Adams' Reilly pigeon guns (at least one line about an important historical pigeon gun was unfortunately deleted because of graffiti smeared all over the line by the usual suspects)..I believe Adams' Reilly were all originally Hurlingham weight.
From reading Cyril's newest book, and speaking with him a few times about pigeon gun characteristics and availability (lack of, actually), it seems he personally favors 8 lbs. + for an exposed hammer pigeon gun.
I certainly do, too. I just don't like shooting 3 3/4 - 1 1/4 loads in anything under 8 lbs., for 30 birds, plus possible practice birds.
SRH
Bill, for whatever my opinion is worth I am familiar with the Skimmin&Wood you obtained from a mutual friend. I always thought of it as a duck gun since it had 30" barrels and an automatic safety...Geo
I went back and looked at the two Reillys for sure owned by Cyril (and you guys are the experts). Both have been discussed here and pictures posted. Both are hammer guns. Both these guns wound up in Los Angeles, I speculate to the same collector. For the record:
23574 - 8 lbs - I dated this gun as late 1881. It must have been built to 1882 Hurlingham match weight which was indeed 8 lbs that year.
http://www.vintageguns.co.uk/category/guns/page/13/A beautiful bar-in-wood side-lever 12-bore hammer pigeon gun with two sets of barrels, third bite and scroll engraving. Cased in leather. This was used as his go-to game gun when Cyril Adams (see 24534 another Cyril Adams Briley choked gun) visited the UK for many years.It has been fully restored in England by the best gunmakers and is proofed for modern 2 3/4″ shells. We guarantee it for 12-months
Details
Maker
Stock Number CA56
Type Hammer Guns, Live Pigeon Guns
Gauge 12
Weight
8 lbsStock
Grip Straight Hand
Length to centre 15 1/4"
Length to heel 15 1/4"
Length to toe 15 1/2"
Forend
Catch Hackett Snap
Ejectors None
Barrels
Type Steel
Length 30" both sets
Rib Flat, pigeon type
Chambers 2 3/4" both
Choke Right: Set 1: 3/4 Set 2: Briley
Left: Set 1: Full Set 2: Briley
Serial Number 23574
24534 - 7lbs 8 oz; I date this to late 1882 - likely built it to the then new 1883 Hurlingham rules per his advertisements.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/817298429Extra heavy 1 1/2 oz. London proofs with 3" chambers. - 31" Fluid pressed Steel barrels with flat filed top rib. - Purdey style under bolts and slotted hinge pin. - Nearly 100% coverage fine scroll engraving. - Dolls-head extension. - Fully filed action with highly detailed & intricate Percussion style fences. - Extra heavy firing pins - Hackett patent snap on fore end - Beautifully figured French walnut stock and fore end with nearly perfect 28 LPI checkering and English Leather covered pad - Highly sculpted, "below the line of sight" hammers. ncluded are cleaning equipment and spare springs and firing pins. .....Dimensions: STOCK: Modern Flat comb competition dimensions: 1 3/8" x 1 3/8" x 14 3/4" LOP. Cast off for Rt. hand shooter (can easily be bent) Weight
7 lbs. 8 oz. Barrels 31" Bores: L: .733" R: .728" Min Walls: L: .031" R: .035"
Actually the numbers and weights of both these guns are once again validation of the method of dating Reilly's....I'll add this to the Reilly chart.
Don't you think we've heard enough of this O'Reilly crap ?
Wonder if he used Tannerite to stuff those balls with a "flash-bang" experience? RWTF
Wonder if he used Tannerite to stuff those balls with a "flash-bang" experience? RWTF
Fox, I doubt a shotgun would set off the tannerite?...Geo
You are probably right- thought I saw some Tannerite blocks for exploding rifle range targets on sale at Gander whatever a while back--With all the crazy pipe bombers extant, even selling reloading powders might be a tad "risky" today-- I still have a few BP 12 gauge paper shotgun loads- fun to shoot in a SC event, so I have been told. I'll do some more EOD recon and see if I can figure it out- No spark, so must be some form of concussion detonator-- No "sympathetic detonation" either--we shall see- always like a good research quest. Foxy
I have a little 44-page booklet, titled "The History of W & C Scott Gunmakers. This was written in 1983 by Patrick G Whatley & John A Crawford.
12 gauge pigeon guns are listed as weighing from 7 to 8 lbs with barrels of 27½" to 30", Half or Full chokes. These "Usually" had 2 3/4" chambers & handled up to 1¼ oz shot. Options included a Half-Pistol hand, cheekpiece, Monte-Carlo stock, Silver's recoil pad & Side-clips.
Wildfowl guns were made in 8, 10 & 12 gauges with barrels of from 28" to 36" but are not listed gauge specific. Chambers were 2 3/4" or longer & in 12 gauge used 1¼ oz of shot.
Heavy Wildfowl guns in 12 gauge weighed 9 lbs or more & handled up to 1½ oz of shot.
1893 William Read & Sons catalog
"Regulated for 45 to 48 grains Schultze or similar Nitro powders, and 1 1/4 oz. Shot" would be 3 1/4 - 3 1/2 Dr. Eq.; the usual turn-of-the-century Live Bird load
I don't know the composition of "Scott's Special Steel" but it was very likely Siemens-Martin steel at that time.
Foxy, next time I see Jon I'll try to remember to ask him what he used. This happened before tannerite ever hit the market shelves.
SRH
Keith and JOe seem to have a way to destroy a good pigeon gun thread. They should restrict their disruptions to less interesting threads/
Unfortunately low resolution image of the listing in 1904 - 1914 W.J. Jeffery & Co. catalogs courtesy of Boyd Taylor Thompson
The Jeffery “Long Range” hammerless “Waterfowl” gun was available in 3” chambers that “can be used with from 4-5 drams of black powder and 1 3/8 to 1 1/2 oz. of Shot” in the “Perfect” cartridge. Either “good quality Damascus” or “Herakles” Compound Gun Barrel Steel could be ordered. Wt. 8-9 #.
2 3/4” chamber “Pigeon” loads were 1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/4 to 3 3/4 Dram Black Powder or “the equivalents in Smokeless Powder”. I think the weight is listed as 7 - 7 1/2 #
Thanks, Stan. I had some basic EOD training, at USMC Camp Lejeune, Courthhouse bay facility- Plus on a family farm in Southern Ohio- I learned from my Grandfather how to "blow stumps and boulders" with "DuPont persuasion sticks"-- Back then, the local hardware store sold it to farmers, also fuse-- the dynamite was kept in the basement, packed in sawdust in large wooden crates--Not today!! RWTF
I couldn't agree with you more, Bill. Wish they would move to another web-site. Both these "clowns" could foul-up a wet dream. RWTF
I recently won an auction for a 32" barreled, 12 ga. British waterfowler that weighs 8 lb. 15 oz., according to the seller. A pigeon gun with that same length barrels would have been about 1 1/2 lb. lighter.
SRH
Pigeon guns are most likely stocked high.
]Pigeon guns are most likely stocked high.
Almost always.
SRH
I bought a Lefever at a gun show with the following.
1) No safety
2) chokes xtra full and full
3) length 32 in barrells
See if I can add something useful.
Handling Characteristics of an Average pigeon gun:
Weight = 7# 11 oz, Balance = 4 3/4" in front of (front)
trigger, Unmounted swing effort = 1.82, & Mounted
swing effort = 8.11.
Handling Characteristics of an Average game gun:
Weight = 6# 8 oz, Balance = 4 1/2" in front of (front)
trigger, Unmounted swing effort = 1.45, & Mounted
swing effort = 6.38.
Handling Characteristics of an Average Light Pigeon gun;
Weight = 7# 3 oz, Balance = 4 5/8" in front of (front)
trigger, Unmounted swing effort = 1.67, & Mounted
swing effort = 7.46.
As the numbers show, taken in order of game gun - light pigeon - pigeon, the guns become progressively heavier, more forward balance, and require increasingly more effort to swing.
Curious to me, columbari birds haven't been mentioned, unless I missed it. The only gun in my database that I know to have been used very successfully in columbari birds is a Perazzi MT-6 with the following handling: 8# 3 oz, 3 3/8" balance, 2.38 unmounted and 7.99 mounted. I expect this gun is an exception to the averages.
DDA
Bill, for whatever my opinion is worth I am familiar with the Skimmin&Wood you obtained from a mutual friend. I always thought of it as a duck gun since it had 30" barrels and an automatic safety...Geo
It’s worth a lot Geo. I’m quite happy, regardless of what type of game gun it is. I like the heft of it, and that I doesn’t need fixing.
Interesting Cashmore for Kirkwood Bros.; high VR and BTFE apparently with a checkered wood butt - OUCH!!
Parker first offered a VR on a
double in 1923; Hunter Arms in 1925.
https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/2267-396/
Careful about showing Cashmores. You will offend poor Ted.
In 1883 Dr. W. F. Carver, “The Evil Spirit of the Plains” was matched against Capt. A. H. Bogardus (using a W&C Scott) by the Ligowsky Clay Pigeon Co. in a 25-match series. He and Capt. Bogardus shot 100 targets each in 25 different cities, with Carver winning 19 matches, three tied, and losing three.
Carver used a hammerless 12b Greener then but was shooting a Cashmore 1897-1899.
He used his Cashmore, shooting at the max. 32 yds. at the 5th GAH at Elkwood Park, Long Branch, N. J., March 1897.
Thomas A. Marshall, of Keithsburg, Ill., won in a four man shoot-off, also using a Cashmore.
Guns used: Smith- 31, Parker- 23, Greener- 21, Francotte- 12, Cashmore- 11, Scott- 9, Winchester- 8, Purdey- 5, Lefever- 3
Marshall and his Cashmore won again in 1899 - the only 2 time GAH champion. He was given this Cashmore Presentation Gun thereafter
Cashmore's Nitro Bolt & 1910 catalog courtesy of Bro. Daryl
Wow! 75 pounds sterling in 1910 is about $9400 today.
I recently won an auction for a 32" barreled, 12 ga. British waterfowler that weighs 8 lb. 15 oz., according to the seller.
SRH
Stan, you've been holding out on us. Let's hear more, please.
JR
Guns used at the 1898 Grand American Handicap at Live Birds
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/45659/rec/2 Parker- 56, Smith- 42, Greener- 20, Francotte- 17, Remington- 11, Cashmore- 9, Lefever- 8, Scott- 8, Daly- 6, Winchester- 5, Colt- 4, Purdey- 2, Richards- 2, Churchill, Baker, Hollenbeck, Forehand and Stannard- 1 each.
Guns used at the 1899 Grand American Handicap at Live Birds
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/43581 https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/43583/rec/1 Parker- 78, Smith- 56, Greener- 31, Francotte- 24, Winchester- 12, Remington- 11, Cashmore- 10, Lefever- 6, Purdey- 5, Scott- 6, Colt- 4, Daly- 3, Stannard- 3, Boss- 2, Richards- 2, Baker- 2, Forehand, Syracuse, Clabrough, Renette, Abbey, Spencer & Webley- 1 each.
Thanks All. What prompted the question was a gun I have from a barter with a good friend:
Skimin & Wood BLNE
12ga
30” f/f steel
Raised rib
8 lbs 3 oz
Hidden third fastener
Clipped fences
Nitro proof to 1 1/4 oz
2 3/4”
LOP 14 1/4”
DAC 1 1/2”
DAH 2 1/8”
POW grip
Interesting gun. I wonder on its year of manufacture.
Skimin & wood were well known as makers of pigeon guns, not so much duck guns.
I have a Skimin & Wood pigeon gun, or at least it was advertised as a pigeon gun, I bought it as a pigeon gun & I call it a pigeon gun.
I shoot the orange circular breed of pigeon, not so hard to shoot but damn crunchy to eat.
Skimin & Wood BLE # 1620*.
12 g
30". 3/4 UK. or light full 0.030 constriction both barrels.
Slightly raised & file cut rib.
7 lb 14 oz.
Hidden, Purdey type third fastener.
Clipped fences. 2.240" across outside of fences.
Nitro proof to 1 1/2 oz.
3" chambers 0.2040" or 5.13 mm thick chamber walls.
LOP 14 1/2" to front trigger.
DAC 1 5/8"
DAH 2 1/2"
POW grip.
Auto safety. Dicky bird type.
Anson release forend latch.
Fine English rose & scroll engraving.
O.M
I would like to be able to correctly pronunciate this name, but need direction. Does Skimin sound like "Sky-min" or is it a "short" first "I", as in the word "skimming"?
SRH
Good question Stan. So much of what people read they never hear in conversation. Then you mix in a foreign language like brit english and there's just no telling.
I'm still working on pronouncing my J. Blanch & Son hammer gun. Blank or blantch? The gaelic would require the former if the Peter May novels are to be trusted...Geo
According to David Trevallion, it's Blanch - like what you do to vegetables to give the color. In American English...Blanche... like the name. ("a" like in "ahhhhh").
“Good question, Stan.”
Fixed it for you. (your welcome:))
Argo beet me to it.
One of the advantages of shooting a bumper jack. Don’t have to worry how to pronounce it.
_________________________
EYE-thack-ah thutty seven.
Thanks Lonesome. It is good to know there are those among us knowledgeable in the use and placement of the comma. But you seem to have put an unnecessary colon and an extra parentheses in your second sentence and misspelled beat in the third....Geo
Drew, do you know what type of gun the Stannard was. I can't figure out how to enlarge the print of the articles you mentioned. I have a Stannard single barrel trap gun and it may be the only one I have seen.
If I had a date with a girl named Blanche and she pronounced it Blahhhnche, I'd ghost her...Geo
Bet she always "depended on the kindness of strangers"-- When I shot the "pigeon ring events" in June 2010 at Sagola- I shot an early 12 bore Smith Grade 2E--originally barred with Damascus-early style ejectors- but it had been sent back to Fulton about 1929-fitted with a set of 32" F&F Nitro Steel barrels with the Gifford Simmons designed Raised ventilated rib- and a semi-beavertail design forearm. Has the earlier style 2 way safety, double triggers and a Hawkins pad-- weighs 8 and 1/4 lbs. 1&1/2 " pitch- 14&3/8" LOP from front trigger, 1&3/8" DAC, and 1& 7/8" DAH-- I often use it for Geese (with RST Non-Tox loads- it has 3" chambers, but NOT a LONGRANGE series Smith) and it "shoots where I look". Would live to try it on some boxed birds, but MI does NOT have any such venues- Nor, sadly, a dove season. RWTF
Daryl: here's a thread about the Stannards and Stannard & Moran. Both the Stannards (cousins?) used Smiths
I'm only assuming that the Stannard double was the Montgomery Ward tradenamed Baker A or B grade
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/f-p-w-d-stannard-and-montgomery-ward.424145/ The
Sporting Life links don't work
1895 No. 2 Smith
With 'F.P. Stannard, Maker' fluid steel barrels, but the rib is not a Smith's
Drew, thanks. I read with interest your article on Trapshooters about the Stannard Histories. The Stannard tag came on the gun I was referring to [single trap] Possibly my gun is illustrated. I'll have to dig out some of my Montgomery Ward related Bakers and look some more , now that you have tied Wards, Stannard, and Baker together a bit. Good work.
A question about balance:
How does the "desired" balance point for a pigeon gun (or a stout SXS Sporting Clays gun) differ from the classical English Game gun? While I suppose it all depends on personal preference, I wonder if there were typical preferences or standards that evolved that the gunmakers followed when building such a gun.
It is too bad there is no bright line standard to define and distinguish a pigeon gun from a waterfowler.
A few years ago, before all perversions became accepted norms in American society, there was a kefluffle in the supreme court over pornography. One justice wisely, though not very helpfully wrote that he could not define porn, but he knew it when he saw it.
Kind of the same with pigeon guns, I submit...Geo
If you're selling it's a Pigeon gun...
If you're buying it's just a waterfowler.
To me the one trait that seperates the two types of guns is stocking. It is a rare pigeon gun that isn't stocked to pattern high, I like mine at about 70% above bore line.
My waterfowl guns are stocked/bent to shoot about 55-60% above bore line. I typically just barely float the bird over the muzzle/rib on my waterfowl guns. That keeps me from raising my head to see where the game went.
I think that you should be able to shoulder any gun and tell instantly if it would work for pigeons/trap targets or not. If you are looking only at your thumb knuckle it might be a tad too low!
