I am going to take a chance to renew this line of discussion. PLEASE, stick to the subject without letting personalities get involved. Data from the mid-1960s courtesy of Gun Digest.
This was about the time I made the switch from using Hi-Speed LR to Std Vel LR for squirrels.

.22 Short Std Vel, 29-grain lead bullet @ 1045 fps, ME of 70 Ft Lbs.
.22 short Hi-Speed, 29-grain copper clad @ 1125 fps, ME of 81 Ft Lbs.
.22 LR Std Vel, 40-grain lead bullet @1145 fps, ME of 84 Ft Lbs
.22 LR Hi-Speed, 40-grain copper clad & 1335 fps, ME of 97 Ft Lbs.

A box of much later CCI .22 Short CB caps shows a 29-grain lead bullet @ 710 fps.
Energy is not listed & I did not bother to calculate it, though quite easily done.
As I understand it these CB caps use only the priming charge as the propellant yet it still pushes the 29-grain bullet to 710 fps.

Note that the ME is proportional to the weight & the Square of the Velocity, while momentum is proportional to mass & velocity. The mass of the 40-grain bullet is 38% greater than the 29-grain one.

Both bullets have identical diameters & virtually the same shape. The extra mass here translates into a higher Sectional Density for the heavier LR which is why it penetrates deeper. The Ability to Move an object by the impact is based upon the amount of Momentum applied. In this case, if the short bullet stops without complete penetration & the LR passes completely through then the applied momentum will for the LR fall somewhere between the total for the Short & the potential of the long rifle. It will; not be less than that of the short for it has penetrated deeper.

In "Short", a .22 29-grain short will NOT move a squirrel farther than will a 40-grain LR.

My dad used CB caps to whack dozens squirrels out of his backyard walnut tree. They were cutting into his crop. SSS

At 10-15 yards, they did the job. For his purposes, they were ideal because the low noise would not disturb the neighbors in the suburban development where he lived. About the time he ran out of squirrels to shoot I took the remaining caps b/c he was risking all kinds of arrests. Any survivors left the area.

If it was today instead of 30 yr ago, an air gun would be more appropriate. A decent air gun will have as much or more energy than the CB cap.

I knew a man who wreaked havoc on neighborhood squirrels with subsonic shorts shot from a bolt action with a baby bottle nipple taped to the muzzle. An "X" was cut at the tip. I never saw or heard him shooting so I guess it worked. Gil

I was frog gigging on the river once and ran into a guy with a .22 single shot that had a yard long galvanized pipe welded on the end of the muzzle. He was slipping along the edge in his boat and shooting fish. I don't know how the pipe affected ballistics, but he had a cooler full of red horse suckers and catfish...Geo

Be sure to scroll down and read the reviews:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/130113...ad-hollow-point
JR

Don't argue with logic and data. It scares folks.

I think my .22 air gun (nitro piston) only has about 25 ft-lbs of energy. Often the pellet passes through a squirrel or crow. Then again, this is at “garden” distance and I keep the penetrator pellets on hand for racoons. A .22 pellet gun is marginal for raccoons. A .380 ACP hollow point splatters racoon parts all over one’s living room…

Miller,
I have never recovered a LR solid from the body of a squirrel. That is because they always penetrate the squirrel, and expend whatever excess energy is required to do that task on the other side of the squirrel, in the atmosphere. If your .22 LR round produces 30ft pounds energy, but, it only takes 15ft pounds for the bullet to penetrate the squirrel, 30 ft pounds was not delivered to the squirrel. 15 ft pounds was.

The .22 short I almost always recovered from the carcass of the squirrel. It was moving slower to begin with, and because of that fact, and the fact the barrel rifling was cut to optimize the velocity of the higher velocity LR bullet, the .22 short was less stable in flight ( your experience has already alluded to this fact with your Mossberg rifle) than .22 LR, and, the bullet was far less stable in a squirrel, when it got there. It has a greater chance of delivering all the energy to the squirrel, and will do just that if it does not penetrate.

This is not carved in stone, and much will depend on the range of your shot. I never got shots much closer than 30 yards, and if all your shots were at 15 yards, I doubt you would see any difference at all. Somewhere in there is air temperature as well, I never hunted until well after the first frost, and preferred to have snow on the ground as it seemed to eliminate the sick animals, as well as reducing fleas, mites, ticks, and sundry other pests that make their living on the backs of warm blooded game animals.

Best,
Ted

Ryan:

I probably shouldn't ask, but how would you know the effects of the .380? Not from personal experience, I fervently hope.

Rem

My girlfriend shot it point blank because she deemed it was going to fight her dog. I was not home at the time. I would have preferred a less drastic approach to removing it. She heard some noise in the basement. It had come down a chimney, knocked out a little sheet metal cover thing where some old furnace connected once upon a time. Surprising how big of a racoon can fit through a 6” diameter hole. A chase ensued and the dog "treed" it on a bookshelf.

Edit: I’ve had more nuisance animal problems in the city than I ever had when I lived in rural areas. I live inside Denver city limits and have coyotes and foxes walking down the sidewalk. Squirrels literally chewing through the walls. Now there's rats all over. I do like the foxes.

Centerfire handgun going off in the house!

Bet the dog and her didn’t see/hear anything for a few minutes.

Glad it came out OK.

Best,
Ted

RyanF,
Your story makes for an epic imaginary crime scene. I suppose her ears were ring pretty well afterwards too.

Ted, I've probably shot many multiples more than my fair share of squirrels with .177 pellet guns, .22 shorts on an 1890 Winchester, and .22 long rifle in every level of loading and ain't none of them ever lifted even a red squirrel (northern variety) off of a limb. Not happening. Ever.

I've shot a fair number with a .54 flintlock and 235 gr round ball at 1975 fts. That will - barely - move a squirrel, and I hesitate to say fully lift one. It will rip it from stem to stern and eviscerate it, but lift it? Questionable.

You will have to remind me where I said “lifted”.

Hit him hard enough to cause him to lose his balance and fall is closer to what I have seen.

I’ve not made a habit of shooting red squirrels. Not sure what I would do with one.


Best,
Ted

My farmer friend shoots red squirrels on a regular and steady basis- almost year 'round- as they get into his attic- (his farmhouse was built in 1896) as well as raid his bird feeders- Once they are on "terra firma" and deceased, he picks up their carcass with tongs and drops them down into the outdoor privy- a two=holer built in 1914- and about once a month he drops a scoop of quicklime into the underground pit-ditto with the fox squirrels in season- except he whacks off the tails and sends them to some fishing lure company in WI-- and gets a check from them- so, I guess he is a "rodent market hunter"-- Tree rats can pay with their tails for your ammo..

Ted, they ain't gonna move it either. Except straight down when it lets go. They do NOT hit harder or anything of the sort. I can't think.of a single thing shorts do better than long rifles except the number that fit in a magazine.

Red squirrels eat just fine, you just need more of them. I killed many of them in Minnesota.

Brent,
Again, remind me where, exactly, I said “lifted”?

I never shot squirrels with hollow points, or, hyper velocity anything, and quit hunting them with long rifle because it was overkill. .22 short kills them dead enough, and, has done an excellent job for me on squirrels. I only hunted greys (by all means, eat every red you like, I’m not interested in chipmunks or pocket gophers, either) and that was for the table.
I wouldn’t say the short hits harder, that is impossible, but, whatever a .22 bullet does after it leaves the carcass of a squirrel, a .22 long rifle is going to do more of it than a short will. I’ve recovered .22 shorts, and that is exactly what you want, all energy expended on target. The .22 long rifle is excessive energy for the task at hand, and, the .22 short gets the job done with less.
I had better results with the bushies falling out of the tree after hit either in the head or the shoulders with .22 short. I am, by far, not the only person who has noted this.

I never counted how many fit in the magazine. I doubt I ever put more than five of anything in a .22, regardless of how many they held.

Best,
Ted

You said, "Even standard velocity LR .22 will almost always leave a bushy tail high up on a tree branch, where a short will almost always knock his little ass right off the branch, and save you a hour of rock throwing." Whichs is BS.

don't knock the reds until you have tried them. Of course, you never will. I understand.

I think there's a bunch of 'proof' that pass through bullets don't shed as much energy into the target as they would if some how or another it stayed in the intended target. I think folks that hunt big game with cast bullets can confirm that there's a difference compared to using a predictable controlled expansion bullet. There're many other examples.

I prefer decent 22LR solids because they shoot better for me. Recently, my boy made a nice paced off ninety yard shot on a squirrel sized vermin. But, in that situation the surroundings were wide open with no worry about the report or range of the bullet that a short could definitely help with in closer quaters. If an arm is chamber for a short and has the proper barrel twist for a short, there's no other alternative.

I personally don't care for hollow point or high velocity 22LR's, because they just don't shoot as well for me and get damaged way more easily, making them shoot even worse. 22LR solids aren't 'explosive', but they certainly can fillet little things, which I can't say I've ever seen a short do. In the end, it's for fun, and it's no fun shooting things you don't feel like using.

craigd, you might try Eley or Lapua subsonic hollowpoints. They will not fragment or destroy any meat and they are extremely accurate, relative to all but the most expensive, match-grade solid ammo (the $25/box stuff. But neither Eley or Lapua are cheap. They run $10-11 a box. Worth it though. Quite as well.

When I first started squirrel I used either hi-speed LR or Short because that was all which was readily available to me as a rural boy with only small towns readily accessible. Then this gentleman put me on to these standard velocity LR loads. Sure what energy goes out the back side of the squirrel is wasted, Who cares. The problem with the short bullet in LR rifling is not the lack of stabilization as the short specific barrel has a slower twist than a LR barrel. The problem is Over stabilization. Lack of stabilization will cause a bullet to tumble, over stabilization does not. The main concern here id it can magnify ant imperfection in the balance of a bullet more so that one which is just properly stabilized. I shot from fairly short range up to longer ranges but not normally at extreme ranges. I was hunting in hill country & often to find a clearing to shoot through would end up on the lower side of the tree, which added to the range. Most of my hunting was done early in the season when the leaves were still on the trees. I lioked to take advantage of when they were "Cutting" rather than later when many were feeding on the ground.

By the 1960s there was no longer a price advantage to shorts, the LR was a lot more versatile & shot better. Seemed like a No-Brainer to me. AND Neither would "Knock" the squirrel off a limb, You had to Kill it hope it wiggled enough to fall, most did. My problems with lodged were virtually from hitting another limb on the way down. Unless they were very precariously balanced there shooting them with a .22 would not knock them loose, nearly always had to resort to some other method. Most of the ones I shot were greys, but occasionally would encounter some Fox Squirrels & shot a good number of ground Hogs using this same load. Right across in front of my house was a small creek. On the far side of it was a sheer bluff with caves which went back inside. Groundhogs, as well as coons, would den in them. One day in early spring I spotted a young tender groundhog sunning atop a large slanted rock which had fallen out of the bluff. I got the Mossberg out I got within about 30-35 yds of it, aimed & fired & two of them rolled off that rock. Sometimes a bit of extra power is not a bad thing. Perhaps I read Robert Rurak too much in my teens but have always remembered his phrase, "Use Enough Gun". The LR is enough for most Fur type small game, but Not Too Much just as the 20 gauge is enough for many upland Feathers, but never Too much. Simply have no desire to go smaller than either.

Having used everything from CB caps to hyper-velocity LR rounds for a lifetime, for the gamut of uses, I've never found shorts to be superior to Longs or Long Rifles, for anything. That said, I may have never used them for the exact things others have. Usually, the high velocity stuff passes through and leaves the critter in place, unless it kicks or reacts in such a way as to cause it to move from where it was hit. One exception ......

When I want a mess of bullfrog legs really bad I go to the ponds/lakes on my place at night with a .22 and a spotlight. We get in a boat and paddle slowly, and quietly, while the man in the front shines the banks at water level for frogs. The other man, the paddler usually, has a scoped .22 rifle. The frog always, without exception, sits right above water level, facing the water. You aim at the white throat patch just under it's "chin". A LR hollow point will kill the frog outright, and it flops backwards onto it's back, not to even twitch. I've never tried a Short hollow-point, but it might work just as well. Funny thing is, solids don't work as well. I can't imagine the bullet can be expanding in a bullfrog's neck, but that's the way the results are. HPs work best.

I could just gig them like most folks, but I just don't like seeing a stuck frog trying to push itself off the prongs of a gig with it's front feet. And I really don't like seeing them try to crawl away with their front feet after cutting their hind legs off, back on the bank. Gigged frogs rarely die from the gig. Call me a softie, but I want it dead when I put it in the fish well.

SRH

Stan a frog's nervous system will keep them moving long after death. Ever notice how the legs kick when they hit the grease? It is a blood sport, just like so much else we do.

I don't know if it's right, but I think about it sometimes when I pick up a dove and crack its head on something. Like Old Ed, I might quit someday, but not today...Geo

Yep, I know. And, we're all going to quit someday, voluntarily or involuntarily.

But you know, I wouldn't like working in a packing house for cattle and hogs, either. At least with the 'frogs and doves I can do it my way.

SRH

At some distance any HP .22 - short, std vel, hi-speed - becomes a solid. Pays to experiment w/different weights, velocities, brands. Red squirrels make a good test bed. And I kill them year round. Mostly use LR sub-HPs now, as they are most accurate. But everything works because distances are short. Get some with the Single Six and #12 shot, and sometimes a M-42. No need for segmented HPs.

Also shoot crows, some past 100 yds. Yard is ranged, and the 20x SWFA turrets are very nice. CCI sub-HPs start punching through like solids after 60 yds. Get fly-offs on long pokes, but was shooting them b/c we had to replant a cornfield. Next year they stayed away. So I kept my part of the deal, ie., left them alone.

For bigger stuff like porkies and nuisance beaver much prefer HS .22 LR HPs. Couple weeks ago brained a odd-behaving skunk. Luckily, it didn't spray. Had it in for a red fox that grabbed couple of my hens. I saw the tail end, arrived too late. Happily a neighbor - also with chickens - got it with his .22. I say that b/c this particular red had very distinctive light tint and color pattern.

Agreed. But, at 'frog distance (20 ft. or so) I'm not so sure that's the case. Not sure what it is but, something about them makes a difference.

Best, SRH

[ "Not sure what it is but, something about them makes a difference." ] Stan

That something is unexpended power. When I shoot a frog in the sand, or mud, a long rifle goes through the target and hits the dirt so hard it sometimes flips the frog ten feet or more up the bank and often into the grass. The short HP leaves them where you shoot them...Geo

Stan,
Read the reviews from the MidwayUSA link on the CCI HV .22 Short Hollow Points I posted earlier. They reflect my experiences controlling squirrels in my yard that trash it with green pine cone litter.

Try it on bullfrogs. You will be impressed.
JR

To me accuracy is the most important element of .22 hunting ammo, and target ammunition is where I start. An older Paco Accurizer http://pacotools.com/tool_discriptions turns the round nose ammo to flat pointed versions for squirrels, the couple woodchucks I've shot were young and I left the high speed LR rounds with their noses round for better likelihood of penetrating sufficiently. I've wound up with higher velocity rounds for squirrels simply because they shot the best in the two rifles I use; one's a HP I use as-is and the RN version gets the RNFP treatment. Have not left any squirrels stuck in a tree and hope it never happens.

I'd like to, but do not have a scoped bolt action .22. Queen used to do the shooting, and she always used her Nylon 66 Apache Black. It won't cycle shorts. She once went 13 for 14 with that Remmie. Pretty good for night shooting', even if it was a woman.

Maybe I need a dedicated frog .22 that will run shorts, eh?

SRH

Yeah, they do. But, I've found that they don't kick around on the bank after being hit with a HP. They do when you use a solid.

Anyway ..... SRH

CCI Mini Mag hps...been shooting them in my Kimber and I've shot them in my Winchester model 75 sporter since they came out.

Really no need for anything else.

Shoot squirrels in the head and frogs in the back...

Real frog men just grab them....from what I've saw of the northern squirrels one could almost grab them if you kept a peanut in one hand..

Not such a great idea- squirrel grabbin' Back when I was about 10, my best friend chased a fox squirrel across the yard, and the rodent headed for a window well-ground level of a neighbor's house (built 1928)-- When Dave reached his hand in there to grab the tree rat- it bit him on the thumb-and he had to go through 16 days of Hell- stomach area injections to prevent rabies- he survived- but by a hair's breath-- Don't screw with any rodent or varmint that carries rabies--ever!!

Never been a documented case of transmission of rabies from squirrels to humans:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabies_transmission


http://www.squirrelnutrition.com/blog/do-squirrel-carry-rabies

Best,
Ted

There's a whole lot of wheel-reinvention and making do with as little as possible that is going on out there. The serious squirrel hunters that I know have nearly all gravitated to the extremely accurate sub-sonic hollow points, Eley, SK, and the like. Nuf sed.

Yup. Eley subsonic. HPs are far superior to any thing made by or made from CCI, Winchester, Remington, etc. Not even close. But they do cost.

"Serious" can have totally different meanings to different people. When I was doing my squirrel hunting I considered myself somewhat Serious.
I used ordinary .22 LR standard velocity Solid Points. I never found them lacking in either killing power or practical accuracy.

Serious to me was bringing in the number of squirrels I killed with the least expenditure of shots fired. If I do say so myself I ran a very good average of the ratio of shots per squirrel.

I think, the only way to tell the difference between rimfire ammo is to test at a range with good technique. What distance are we thinking that the typical squirrel is taken, fifty feet give or take? Double that isn't really a far shot. If match ammo picks up a tenth or two of an inch in group size on paper targets, is that translating to the field?

Just have to try them out and see what works. Volume should matter too. One box of Lapuas for a season, or is the box gone in the first fifteen minutes. I like the good stuff, but save it for where I can tell the difference.

Maybe, Teddy- but this was in 1953-1954-- parents were scared stiff about polio, and when David's folks took him to the hospital, they didn't take any chances- as the squirrel apparently "hauled-ass" after he bit my buddy, no way to autopsy the head, as they do with dog bites, so they did the preventative measures-- and David survived-- Going out like the late Alphonse Capone did- from "the sift"- and going out from rabies, both very painful ways to die-- Myself-- when I have a squirrel dropped on the ground from a tree shot with a .22 CCI- HP Mini-Mag, before I pick it up and drop it in the game bag, I whack it hard with a stick- if it moves or even flinches, it gets another Mini-Mag in the ear-- ammo is cheap-- dying from rabies ain't an option.

As boys, my cousins and I hunted frogs by walking along the pond bank
(no boat) I used a 6" K 22. With LRs I lost them, with shorts they were breakfast.
Mike

We used a Daisy BB gun. Shot them just behind the head in the center. They never flinched, little white hole the size, of, well, a BB. They were small frogs, and you could use the legs, and cast what was left in the Lilly pads on a jig, a catch a bass or two.
In later years, we netted them, and sold them, live, to a bait store.

Best,
Ted

Mostly agree. To distances at which sub-HPs expand (< 60 yds) they are more accurate than CCI sub-HPs in our rifles. At 100 yds and beyond CCI subs are consistently more accurate. Then, that's too far to expect expansion. So, in some sense, moot.

The "problem" with CCI SV and sub-HPs is lot to lot variation in velocity ES and accuracy. Stumble on a good lot - buy it all.

I can't believe u guys would even try a single shot. I mean, what if you miss the boiler room...and it CHARGES!!

No no, only a double for me. 29 gr solid to stun him with barrel one. A 40 gr expander in the second barrel to finish him off.

Your guide should hopefully be backing you up with something heavier...perhaps .22 WMR.

NDG

That is correct Nudge.
Use enough gun.

O.M

I'll take the Eley over CCI for accuracy at 100 and at 200 yds every time.

Nudge, they don't get a chance to charge.

As I recall a Brown bear was taken by a young Eskimo girl, who was out blackberry picking with her boyfriend, many years ago. This bear stayed on the top of the record list for many years. As I recall the bear did not actually charge her but was coming down a path in the briars directly towards her. She waited until it got within "Spitting" distance & when it turned its head a bit to the side she shot it with a Single Shot .22 rimfire using "Longs", not LR. She had to shoot it a bunch more times but finally, put it down for keeps. I have seen a p[icture of it hanging with her standing beside it holding her little Rifle.

When I was doing my squirrel hunting I was hunting for the pot, which was why I hunted mostly in the early season to take advantage of the tender young "hatch". I dearly loved a young tender fried squirrel. My average shot was more on the order of 50 feet, never tried for 100-200 yard shots. Those CCI's out of that lowly Mossberg was plenty accurate for those conditions.

Brent, I shot a Win Low-Wall chambered for .22 short & long a couple of weeks ago. This gun was bought for my Dads younger Brother by my Grandfather back in the depression for less than a Dollar as my Dad recalled.

It was passed on to my uncle's son, my first cousin who only had girls who were not interested in shooting so he gave it to my Grandson. It was the first Gun I ever shot, period, but never owned it.

I only hunt squirrels for the pot, but I find them equally tasty at all times of the year. December is my favorite time to hunt them because they are so active in the Squirrel Rut, such that it is. I shot a limit once with a .54 flintlock without moving from one spot one year.

The Winchester Lowwall is the Queen of all singleshot .22s. The one above is completely custom, inside and out. It is a fine 200 yd benchrest rifle, when required, but it makes a perfect squirrel rifle too.

An old #3 Ballard is right fine as a squirrel rifle also, but lacks a few refinements of the Winchester. Still, it gets the job done. These 4 were shot without moving my feet even the slightest amount.

Brent your gray(?) squirrels have a lot more orange on them than ours down south. What I don't like about early season squirrels is they often have a bot fly larvae in them. We call that wolves. Nasty looking varmint...Geo

These are Fox Squirrels. [i]Sciurus niger[/]. Same as yours.

We could find bots, but it is very uncommon. I've not seen one in Iowa. I don't recall seeing one in Georgia either, but I'm sure they were common there. The mice certainly had them.

While bots are ugly looking, they are totally harmless, including if one gets going on you. They won't hurt a squirrel's palatability.

I have shot only 4 species of tree squirrels. They are all excellent table fare. But one day, soon, I will hit the road for a complete Single-Season Squirrel Slam.

What would comprise a single season squirrel slam?...Geo

All the legal (nonendangered) tree squirrels in North America.

This guy did it using a shotgun. I'd use a rifle and after that, I might try it with a handgun. But I am a terrible pistol shot, generally. I'd need a lot of practice.

Here is one I got lucky on last winter. This was about 20 yds out with an Eley Subsonic HP. Bullet was recovered - a rarity.

I don't know what this one won't play.

Anybody want to bet, the photo above(page 5) is George's favorite? One grand baby is worth three of your own children.
Mike

Or- one baby grand (Steinway, Bosendorffer, Baldwin) worth how many of those kiddies??) Grand slam on tree rats- What is that?? Whack 'em and stack 'em-- Like shooting rats at the township dump- except tree rats get airborne- junk yard rats not so much.

I'll stay with CCI hollow-points for all my varmint shooting with my .22's-- RWTF

RWTF, If you think squirrels are varmints and not the finest eating game animal on the continent, well, I feel sorry for you.

Squirrel, especially the gray squirrel is my favorite wild game to eat. Yum. Squirrel gravy is the best.

FWIW, my favorite load for "the grey death" is Winchester 42gr hollow point subsonics. They hit hard, expand nicely, and subsonic 22 is simply more accurate. Plus the added benefit of not "cracking" the air means you dont scare everything proximate in the woods into scurrying away.

CCI subsonic (not "quiet" load) is a close second.
The older Winchester 40gr subsonic hollow points (grey box) were also quite good.

Im not sure is Winchester is even importing the 42gr load anymore...theyre made in Oz.

If available, I recommend an "adequate" supply. Thats how Rolls Royce used to rate the horsepower in their engines...simply "adequate."

NDG

Squirrel. The other dark meat.

Best,
Ted

I will be the oddball in the group and say that when I was a "serious" squirrel hunter I used a 10-22 with an aftermarket bull barrel and CCI Stingers. This was back when I kept squirrel dogs and hunted often. I used the 10-22 especially on the trips when I hunted alone. My thinking was that if the dogs treed the squirrel they deserved the chance to retrieve the squirrel, and I thought the Stingers gave me the best chance of making that happen.

When they treed a squirrel in big longleaf pine, it was a real challenge to spot him, and when I was alone it was a real challenge to shoot him even after he was spotted. The squirrel would often swap sides of the tree or limb when I moved, and many times getting a head shot was impossible. The good thing about the Stingers was that you could hit the squirrel almost anywhere and knock him out of the tree, and if he hit the ground he belonged to the dogs.

The Stingers were also not as inaccurate as many would think in that particular gun. It didn't have a match chamber, and I've heard that they will often shoot better in a gun that doesn't have a tight chamber. I bought that barrel because others told me it would shoot them, and it will consistently shoot 10 shot groups under an inch at 50 yards. That won't win matches, but they would do an amazing job of killing squirrels even on marginal hits.

But I usually hunted with a group of folks and I would carry my 10" Contender. It shot Winchester Power Points better than Stingers. I usually didn't take the shot anyway if I had a group, and I always got one guy to carry a shotgun to get any runners or to get one that a rifle missed.

My dogs all got old and died and I don't have one now. I miss having them. Most of them were Treeing Feist, but my best dog was half Feist and half Rat Terrier. Since he wasn't pure bred, the field trial guys didn't want him and I got for $100. Blake was the best bargain I ever got in my life.

Coosa;
When hunting with dogs like that the sonic crack is not of importance as it is under other conditions. As I stated earlier most of my squirrel hunting was done early in the season which at that point in time here in TN opened Sept 1. The leaves were still on & the squirrels were in the trees cutting mast. In my area, this was primarily hickory nuts, beech & acorns. I have also taken them out of Dogwood trees. My average shot was probably around 50 feet, not yards.

I have both heard & read over the years that hunting with a rifle under these conditions was fruitless & a shotgun was a necessity when the leaves were on. I simply ignored this "Fact" & went right on killing my squirrels with a .22. Our l.limit then was 6 & I often took at least 4 out of a single tree before moving to another & sometimes the limit.

The lack of the sonic crack was of more importance under these conditions than extreme accuracy. That lowly Mossberg firing those CIL 40-grain standard vel 40-grain greased lead solids was capable of hitting the head every shot. I didn't do it 100% of the time, but I had to take the blame when I missed. I could have spent Hundreds of dollars on a premium rifle, premium scope rather than the little Bushnell & premium target ammo, but I doubt I would have killed even a single extra squirrel over the course of the season.

My whole point for this thread was the factor the Sonic Crack played under conditions where a group of squirrels is working a single tree, which is more the norm than the exception in the early season.

I didn’t care for Stingers, on game I planned to eat. They were really destructive, and shook up the woods.

Best,
Ted

I had the chance to go out for a few hours today after varmints that are overall a bit smaller than squirrels. I only prefer to use open sights and took something over three hundred shots. If I get the urge, I'll take out a scoped bolt rifle and probably only one box of the really good stuff and see how the fun factor adds up. No, I'm not hunting for the pot, but the shooting sure seems to help with calling the shot and it sharpens the eye for spotting game.

When they first became available Dad used the high speed segmented hollow points on red squirrels. He was taking shots at about 15 feet. Cut them in half every time.

The sub-HP version might be nice for distance work, if I could get past the sticker price.

No need for that, Brent- I hunt squirrels (also woodchucks) because a very wise old woodsman taught me, in my youth- that "If you want to be a good deer hunter, first become a very good squirrel hunter". When he bought a new box of 20 shells for his Win. 94 .32 Special- you could figure on 20 dead deer-

I have had fried squirrel- also beaver, possum and raccoon in past years. All are vermin, in my lexicon, but if the meat is dressed out and aged properly- not bad- I just don't care for the bother it takes to skin out and field dress "tree rats"-- so I give my dead squirrels to the farmers--same with rabbits--

I don't hunt with a partner now-a-days--so I just sit in the shadows on an Oct. afternoon, and hunt them like a sniper- scoped .22 with CCI rounds- head shots only. One shot- one dead tree rat. RWTF

coosa, Blake looks like a spunky dog. I haven't squirrel hunted in over a third of a century. When I did I shot a single shot Remington M41 TargetMaster which I still have and a Ruger 10/22 which I don't have. Both were fine squirrel guns. I never hunted with a dog, but I run into dog hunters during woodcock season. One group comes from the mountains to hunt the area and I asked if they didn't have squirrels in the mountains. "Yes, but we don't have flat land." They were as serious about squirrel hunting as we are about turkeys. Gil

2-piper, I understand on the advantage of the sub-sonics when stalk hunting. The noise doesn't matter when hunting with a dog. The challenge for the hunters is to just spot the squirrel and then hit him well enough to get him out of the tree. Like most types of hunting with dogs, it's all about seeing the dogs work.

Gil, thanks for the compliment on Blake; he was a good dog and I had him until he was 13. He was completely deaf near the end, but he still treed squirrels right on through his last hunting season. There are a lot of folks around me who take squirrel hunting with dogs very seriously. They have competition hunts that will draw people from several states.

Coosa;
I fully agree the sonic crack would be meaningless when hunting with a dog. I have been a few times with someone who had dogs & thoroughly enjoyed it. However, as I stated my squirrel hunting was primarily in the first month to 6 weeks of the season. I never found dogs to be particularly useful, or even desirable in this early hunting. What was of extreme importance "To Me" was to avoid that Sonic Crack.

Gotta say, I've never noticed the squirrels noticing the supersonics more than the subs. Back in the day when I used supers, I would shoot one, and the commence to skin it on the closest log while it was still warm. Often as not another one would come over in a minute or 2, I suppose to check out what the noise was all about

Today (D-Day eve) I went out for the afternoon to an area farm, mainly looking for woodchucks- with all the rain recently, no alfalfa has been cut- and the usual tunnels near feed silos didn't bear fruit- but raccoons- ah yes- Farmer told me he had been hearing their chitter-chatter down by the dirt road that borders the South side of his land-.

I took my favorite squirrel "dinger" Ruger 722 BA with 4x Leupold scope and CCI Mini-Mags- He directed me to a stand of 4 mature shagbark hickory trees- full of bole holes- well leafed, and I got into the shade and waited- over 2 hours, five raccoons decided to peek out of their holes in the trees- 2 fell dead from limbs, the other 3 dropped down the hole when shot "between the running lights"-

I looked over the 2 dead ones that "hit the deck" I put the crosshairs right between their eyes- est'd range 25 feet- both died instantly- ears gone, top of their skulls blow clean off- I use the same gun and loads for fox squirrels in October- head shots only--Whether I am shooting "tree rats", raccoons or woodchucks, I want a clean kill every time- even on vermin, I want a sudden death every time I squeeze off a round- so I stay with this load- time after time-- RWTF

Blake was completely deaf by his 13th season, but he still had more desire to hunt than any other partner ever. And it took it dead seriously; there was no joking around when we were after a squirrel.

I only hunted squirrel with him, but never made a big deal about Treeing some other critter. He treed fox and gray squirrels, possums, coons, buzzards, and turkeys. He once treed a bobcat that bailed out of the tree when I approached and it led them on a long chase that went out of hearing.

But I think he hated kitty cats worst of all. There are several stories of cats that did not fare well after leaving the safety of the tree. Real bad decision.
Here is Blake on one of his final hunts. He put 5 coons up a single tree and we recovered them all.



Blake and Joe caught this Yahoo, but I made them turn him loose. They aren't that rare in our area, but I didn't wanna be on TV.



At age 13, I was dreading the day when I'd have to make a decision about what to do with him. He took care of the problem for me. I let him out of the pen right at dark one day and he never came home. I suspect he died as he lived - violently. He probably tried to tackle some critter bigger than him and finally lost. RIP, Blake.

I've heard it said that every man deserves to own one good dog in his life. If true, I've had mine.

Fox doesn't your state have hunting seasons on shooting racoons ?

I'm betting except in dream land you ain't been squirrel hunting in 50 years.

Guess next you'll tell us you landed on the beaches of Normandy.

I've enjoyed reading and seeing pics of Blake. Great remembrances.

I once had a good friend who kept a pack of dogs to run bobcats. They would trail nothing else. They would bay, or tree them, eventually and he would kill the 'cat. He had a little feist that rode in the cab of the truck with him everywhere. Little fella always wanted to get in on the fun, but was never allowed. He feared for his safety, with a big cat. One day he drove as close to where the dogs were treed as possible, and got out to walk to them. He thought he left the feist shut up in the truck, and walked in to the set-to. As he approached the scene he saw that the cat had backed down in a hole left where a big tree had been uprooted, and was backed up against the rootwad. A blowdown like that is locally referred to as a "harrikin". About then the feist came running in from behind him, shot through the pack of hounds and in an instant leapt and seized the big 'cat by the throat. With help from the other dogs he hung on until he suffocated the 'cat.

My friend never doubted that little feist again.

SRH

I bet the fiest belonged to a guy name of little Johnny....

OK-- Joseph-- In MI- you can shoot raccoons, fox, coyotes and woodchucks on private lands with the landowners permission year around- and if the farmer has crop damage permits, deer- even in the summer- No limit either, except on the deer.

I usually hunt waterfowl in the mornings Oct-mid Nov. and if the day is warm and sunny and the leaves are coming down, squirrel hunt in the afternoons-- so,you lose your bet.

The only vermin/predator with a "season" here are corvids- due to some "Toro-Caca" based treaty with Mexico years ago-but even then, there is a loophole- "If the crows are either a nuisance or are causing depredation (look that word up in your FunkinWagnalls) you are allowed to kill them, no limit.

Limit on Fox squirrels is 5/day- grey or black (Obama specials)- we get few black squirrels around here- but in the Battle Creek area, they are abundant- Mr. C.W. Post brought a pair back from a trip to Europe in 1910- turned them loose on his estate, and they took off like dresses on prom night-

I don't dream about hunting squirrels, I do it- and enjoy shooting any of my scoped .22's (mainly Winchesters-pre-1960) for "tree rats". Stay well- RWTF

RWTF, your black fox squirrels did not come from Europe. They are a North American species. Just a different color morph.

We have Abert's squirrels here, mostly the grey variety but we have black ones too. Never shot an abert's squirrel but killed a bunch of grey squirrels growing up. Rabbits too but then I developed an allergy to rabbit fur so they get a pass from me these days.

Me too- but I get a rash on my fingers after dressing our Rabbits, so I also give them a pass- fried rabbit- yumm- tastes like chicken. But I use a rabbit fur decoy, and the squealing rabbit call on my Johnny Stewart electronic game called to lure coyotes to their doom- in Jan-Feb---RWTF

Abert's are extremely tasty. And live in cool country that is great fun to hunt. The black variety up on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon are called Kiabab squirrels but they are just melanistic Aberts.

I am real surprised no one has mentioned gray squirrels boiled, deboned and then cooked with dumplings. Use over a half stick of butter, black pepper, and man is that a meal.

I always made Brunswick stew out of them, and never concerned myself with whether they were old, or young animals. I did cheat, and use beef bouillon for the stock, or, if I had it, canned beef gravy. If browning the squirrels prior to stewing them made a difference, I couldn’t tell. I also preferred mashed potatoes on the side, but, potatoes in the pot was good as well. It always seemed to come out good, and I fed it to more than one person over the years who became “other dark meat” converts.

Best,
Ted

There is no bad way to eat a squirrel, fan fried in butter and olive oil, stewed, in a cream sauce with mushrooms, all good. But for my money, marinated and gently grilled is tops every time.

Brent, that is the coolest looking pistol. I want one...Geo

Geo,
Glad you like it. They are as fun as the look and pretty good shooters too. Mine has a 10" barrel. They come in 6" and 8" as well, maybe others. They also come in .410, which seems ridiculous to me, but that is what I read somewhere.

It is a Stevens Model 35. They made a similar model (40 something?) that does not have the trigger guard.

About $300-$350 in good condition.

Brent,
I have one of the 410s, I inherited it from my aunt who got it from my grandfather( I have the papers). I think it is great, my aunt called it a snake gun, but I mostly shoot carpenter bees with it. I use 444 cases and worn out polishing media for shot. It works great with normal 2 1/2" shells also. If the police wouldn't have a fit, I would take on the squirrels in my pecan trees with it.
Mike

really!

I've looked and looked for one. I don't really want to buy one, but just to see it and figure out what they might go for. Havent found one yet. If I owned one, I'd shoot house sparrows with it. I took down 3 with my first shot using the .22 shotshells, but a .410 would be more interesting.

Is it pretty stout recoil with normal 2.5"?

Can you post some pictures?

How good, or bad, are the triggers on them, BrentD and Der Ami? Are they easily improved? I'm AR about my pistol triggers.

Once had an old 9 shot H & R tip-up. Trigger could be easily helped, but it wouldn't last. Sear was too soft. Traded it off.

I agree with Geo., that's a neat looking pistol.

SRH

Many years ago I had the opportunity to buy one of these with both the ..22 RF barrel & the .410 barrel. At the time to make the .410 legal required a transfer tax of $250.00 so I passed. It was not registered & I have always wished I had bought it & kept the .22 barrel mounted & stashed the .410 one away. Later on, I could have grandfathered it in for $5.00 & carried it hunting or wherever I liked, but who knew. I do not recall now if had the trigger guard but seem to recall it being the Spur Trigger version.

You will have to figure that one out for yourself, Stan.

Stan,
The 410 trigger is not bad and it isn't a target pistol. The recoil with 2 1/2" shells is healthy, but not painful. Because it has a longer than 12" barrel, mine is an "any other weapon" and the transfer tax was $5.00.
Mike

Thanks, Mike.

SRH

Mike;
I looked at the one I, mentioned in the late 1960s. "IF" I would have had any idea that transfer was going to drop from $200.00 to $5.00 I would have bought it & hid the .410 for a spell. I though on it awful hard anyway but really didn't want to chance being caught with it, which meant I couldn't really carry it out & about, even in the field as some Warden might check me & recognize it as illegal.

Once upon a time... Grey's with Rugers.

Miller,
If it wasn't "papered" in 68, it couldn't have been picked up later. The only reason I was able to get mine was because I bothered my Aunt enough in 68 that she did the paperwork at the very end of the amnesty period to get me to shut up about it. Without that, I couldn't have had it legally transferred to me.
Mike

I had looked at this pistol prior to the amnesty period so may be off a bit on the date. It was I know 1964 or a bit later as I did not meet the owner of it until Jan 1964. When the amnesty period came up I realized I could have then registered it for the $5.00 but it was TOO LATE then for me to buy it.