Hello,

I have grown to really like SxS shotguns for their looks/balance/heritage. I've acquired a few older ones, but they are all lead-shot only era ones.

However, I just realized that I don't have a steel-shot compatible SxS.

I would like to fix that, without breaking the bank. I may have some 'classics', but none of them cost me more than 750 apiece.

Is CZ the only show in town for a relatively reliable SxS 12g that can handle steel shot and is under a grand?

I know there are other great firearms out there- but not within my budget. I'd love to sell a couple of other firearms to fund it, but no bites on them lately.

So, $1K is my max- after shipping/tax/dros/FFL receiving fee [if shipped on my order].

I like the price of the Bobwhite, but like the looks of the Hammer Classic [I have a hammer 1876 Cimarron coach gun too]. Sharptail is nice, but I don't know about another single trigger.

What else should I be looking for in Steel Shot compatible SxS 12g, for under $1000?

My usage: 100 rounds a year if I am lucky. I have some I haven't had a chance to fire in 4 years. Recreational shooting- iron targets and clay pigeons. Maybe hunting. Not dedicated clay shooting gun. Recreational.

I am in california, so thought I should think ahead to a day when it is Steel or Bismouth, and my above listed shotguns can no longer be used.

Thanks for any insight you can give me.

Ithaca-SKB Model 100 will do. You might also find a Merkel Model 8 for that money or less. Of course, you want to avoid full chokes and shot larger than 4's in my opinion. In any event, I have been shooting steel in both of mine, albeit the Merkel has Briley tubes installed.

Browning BSS, although you may have to open the chokes. They are fine with steel. Single trigger only. You should be able to find a PG 12 for $1K.

Pietro Bernardelli (not Vincenzo) Europa, as imported by Cape Outfitters long ago. The 12s came with choke tubes, straight or pistol grip, pretty decent fit and finish but the straight grip wood could usually benefit from some TruOil. The PG versions all seemed to have a poly finish. Single or double trigger.

I have two Verney -Carron SXSs in 12 and 20. Both are steel shot proof with 3" chambers. Both have mono-blocked barrels with screw chokes A little pricey but they can be fired with anything short of rifle grenades. 6.5 and 5.5 lbs, respectively. See kebcollc.com to order yours.

I agree that steel won't hurt the BSS. You may have a hard time finding a decent 30" barreled one for $1K, but the shorter barreled ones might come in at that, or a bit less. Modified (.020") is as tight as I would go with steel in a BSS or Miroku. I had my 30" BSS's left barrel opened to match the right, at .018", many years ago. It's worked fine with never a hiccup due to the steel.

I agree that the Miroku would work, too. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a V-C within your price range.

SRH

Probably true, but I would have more faith in the BSS version. I have a BSS 12 with 28" and 30" barrels, and the same combo in a Miroku. Other than DT vs ST, the biggest difference between the two is the weight. I have not weighed them, but the Miroku barrel sets seem noticeably lighter than those for the BSS. BSS is probably easier to find, too.

For what your stated use will be, buy the CZ and enjoy. Your pocketbook dictates it.
JR

Agreed.

SRH

I have the CZ Hammer Classic 12ga with 3" chambers and screw in chokes. Chokes are good to go for steel up to modified. I intend to use it this Fall for ducks.

It is a heavy gun, but mine balances well. The gun can be opened with the hammers back and it even has a slide safety. Mine has the case colored frame and hardware, but the new ones are blued. A grand will put one in your hands...Geo

Hi just my 2c. Finding a BSS for under 1k is going to be hard. A basic Miroku would work, if you can find one for under 1k and the chokes were open enough you wouldn't have to let them out. A lot depends on the model of the gun and the chokes. Fixed choked guns need to have open chokes.

Your best bet for what you want to spend and your annual usage would be one of the CZ options.

By chance, here's one that may interest you. You maybe able to dicker on price:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101113490

You may want to check with the seller, all the Dickinsons I've seen come with ejectors, this one states it has extractors. They also come with steel approved choke tubes.

Good luck and remember, half the fun is looking!

Greg

BSS after 1975 were made for steel shot, according to Don Zutz, "except for those loaded with BBs, BBBs, Ts, and Fs", page 67, The Ducks Unlimited Guide to Shotgunning.

Geo, I miss more often with lighter duck guns. Weight is no penalty in a duck blind, carrying afield another thing.

King, was Browning especially prescient? I don't believe steel shot was a thing until the late eighties as I recall. Certainly after 1986.

This:


https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101213066

Offer them $650. Open the chokes to CYL and IC CYL. Call it good. Not rated as a steel gun but, it will be cheap enough and used infrequently enough that you won’t hurt it. There is also a pistol grip version, of the same gun, on the same website.

Good luck

Best,
Ted

bczrx: it is already steel and bismuth only in California.

I echo George's comment on the CZ Hammer Classic. It is not pretty but functional, and has been my steel shot duck gun for several years. I got it for $900 out the door, dunno if the price has changed.

The triggers were awful until I lightened them, but I think I recall that CZ might do that for you free of charge. The trigger guard pounded my knuckle until I opened the pistol grip to a POW. I did have an issue with the left hammer, but CZ sent me a replacement right away. So mine was not without minor flaws, but nothing I couldn't deal with.

A friend is happy with his CZ Sharptail for ducks.

Brent, Zutz mentioned 1975 twice in the book. The BSS after 1975 were "stamped "'Made in Japan.'" A clue for steel introduction date may be his mention " Some of the first doubles made and advertised for steel shot were Winchester's Model 23 Heavy Duck Gun" and he later mentions Classic Doubles Model 201. "On the lower-priced end, Savage once made a Model 311 Waterfowler with 28-inch barrels choked for steel shot."

I've never shot steel although I'm interested in members' experiences with the older American classics choked IC/Modified. I have a half-dozen-or-so and would like to like to pass them along without worries.

I've never shot steel in any S x S except my old BSS. I never really cared if it was approved by Browning for it, in fact, I always was told it wasn't. Didn't matter, I believed it would handle it and it has. Most of what has been shot out of it is 2s, 3s and 4s.

Worth Matthewson wrote in BIG DECEMBER CANVASBACKS that he shot a L C Smith for several years, with nothing but steel. It developed an issue unrelated to the loads he used and he carried it to his gunsmith, who informed him the chokes in it were Xfull and Xfull. The old gun had handled big steel shot for years through those tight chokes without any damage whatsoever.

SRH

Thanks for the info. I did not think Steal shot was even being made in the 70s but could be wrong. Especially outside of the USA.

I rarely shoot steel anymore. I've got some old stuff to shoot up in my two or three guns that will handle it.

A few Merkel Model 8s. They would need their chokes opened a bit and they would be good to go. Mine has shot quite a bit of steel with Briley's chokes and blessings. Both well under $1k.

These are 12s, but there are some 16s also. I'm sure you can find more of them.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101196930

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101196930

"Prescient" may have been the right word for Winchester, Brent. Google listed SI article in 2001 under section Vault:

"In 1976 the Fish and Wildlife Service took the first steps toward phasing out lead shot by designating steel-shot-only hunting zones for wildfowl---areas in which lead poisoning was causing the greatest damage." Further on, "In five consecutive court decisions since 1976---two federal and three state---justices have upheld steel-shot regulations."

Thanks again.

I've been shooting steel for years in my Miroku/Daly. Fixed chokes IC&M. No Problems...Geo

Those guns are Cadillacs, Geo. How about same chokes, 7,000 psi-range handloads in my Parkers and Elsies, assuming proper condition and dimensions. I've a F/F 12 VH I'd love to try!

Why not consider the Stevens 411 Upland Sporter. If you must shoot steel, you might as well have a SXS that is built like a T34 tank. Come to think of it the Stevens 411 Upland Sporter is built in Russia... a country with an interesting and ancient sporting tradition, quite unlike Turkey or Japan.

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst

Hello All,

Thanks for the tips/ideas. My older ones are a '47 LC Smith Field, and a '60 JP Sauer Model 60 Deluxe. Both have Mod/Full chokes.

I have a '15 Parker Trojan that someone beat with an ugly stick. I mean, a high-comb replacement stock was grafted into the original. At least, that is what it looks like. I kind of like the lost art aspect of the stock.

The muzzle was cut down also, and measurements show something like improved cylinder/cylinder, or such.

Since there is so little choke, I thought of steel here, but don't want to ruin it any more.






I know all hunting requires this, but the outdoor ranges I am familiar with allow lead for clay/target/recreational shooting. Of course, I am not in L.A., or the Bay Area.

If steel were the only shot allowed for recreational shooting, why is Walmart still selling so much lead value-pac ammo?

thanks again all!

I agree. My favorite duck gun has 32" barrels and weighs over 9 1/2 lbs., loaded. I went 6 for 6 with it one morning last season. Four mallards, one gaddie and a widgeon.

SRH

["I've a F/F 12 VH I'd love to try!" King Brown]

Don't use steel in it King. Bismuth will open your eyes after shooting steel at ducks...Geo

That's all I'm shooting, Kent's TM and bismuth, Geo. Won't chance steel and will make sure the old Americans pass on to right hands. Thanks.

I shot an SKB 100 12ga 26" IC&MOD with steel from the 70's until I started to phase out all my single trigger shotguns. It worked great.

I switched to two trigger doubles and most of mine were older and shot ITX shot for all my non-toxic stuff. I ran into a range that had gone to non-toxic and started to also shoot some places that I was going to be in the higher volume shooting non-toxics, doves, snipe and coots. So I did the same thing picked up a CZ Bobwhite 20ga.

The CZ Bobwhite is a nice little shotgun, mine is a 26" 20ga. I'm short in stature so the stock got cut an inch and is a nice handling little shotgun. It kills clay birds and doves well with Win steel target 7's and coots and teal with Kent upland steel 5's, I buy both of these by the case.

I suspect that just about any stoutly built sxs with the chokes opened to Modified or less should work fine. I say stoutly built as there aren't any mild factory steel loads.

Would any of you recommend lengthening forcing cones for steel? I believe that would relieve some of the pressure of steel shot loads and perhaps reduced potential for long-term damage.

Brent, I believe the jury is still out on the effect of lengthening forcing cones. Some say it reduces felt recoil, but I don't know any reason it should. I doubt it would affect pressure very much right outside the chamber like that. Some of the smarter guys around here (including you) most likely understand the issue far better than I...Geo

I shot steel 3" BB's & BBB's through a Fox HE that had been cut to 29" with no choke for a couple goose seasons. Sad that it had been cut, but knowing there was very little choke I wasn't concerned.
Sold the gun to TG at gun show and always wondered if the barrels grew back to 32"?

Sold a well worn Fox A grade 20. About a year it popped up for sale. High condition, factory original finish. Collector grade. Offered to send dealer my original photos of the before condition of the gun. Dealer forgot I had sold him the gun. He hung up. Buy with a large salt shaker from some of these guys.

Jim Thynne at Ivory Beads told me years ago that he thought the old fox Sterlingworth with heavy barrels would be the best of the American classics for waterfowl with steel.

I certainly would not disagree with him, but I can see no sense in shooting steel in a vintage double. Two reasons ...... there are several alternatives to steel for older guns, and there are doubles that can handle steel that aren't vintage. JMO, YMMV.

SRH

My Dickinson SLE is fully steel compatible. I still prefer Kent alternatives. We are talking 50 bucks a year, max. Come on, guys. there are no excuses.

I have never heard pressure mentioned as the concern with steel shot? I always thought it was simply the lack of compression compared to lead for the tighter chokes. I have shot steel in an old Stevens Model 311 made some time in the early 60's I believe with no problems, but of course, it is choked IC and Mod. Still nothing larger than 3's.

Perry would not lack of compression in the forcing cone have to result in higher pressure? Seems like it would. Maybe not enough to matter though.

I had the cones lengthened in my Merkel back in the early 90s. I could not discern any before-after differences but figured it couldn't hurt while the the tubes were being put in.

"Don't stone me: Modern steel compatible SxS 12g?"


Everybody must get stoned...

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=eve...8&FORM=VIRE

Remember that max pressure in a shotgun comes well inside the chamber. By the time the shot charge has moved far enough to enter the forcing cone it has already begun to fall. There is little reason to believe a short cone will cause an increase in the max peak pressure of the load. It "May" have a very slight effect on slowing the fall, but that's about it.

No, I am not a Ballistician, so anyone who has "Proof" this is wrong please do so. So many times I am reminded of the words of Julian S Hatcher when he said There are things which Sound good when you Say Them Real Fast, that simply won't hold up to Scrutiny.

How does the pressure fall before the shot moves? Where does it go? After all, the pressure is created by the additional space that the combustion products need relative to the solid powder. The only way the pressure can fall is if the gases expand, and the only way that gases can expand is if the shot moves.

I see your point Brent. I had just never thought of the pressure aspect when considering the lack of compression of the steel shot which often resulted in a bulge at the muzzle. Do you (or anyone else here) think lengthening the forcing cone would be enough to preclude the muzzle ring bulge? The only thing anyone ever told me when I started using steel, which by the way was not until my first duck hunt in 1993, was to never go with anything tighter than a modified choke with any steel shot, especially the larger diameter ones like 2's and larger.

First & Foremost I did not say the pressure fell before the shot moved, quite the contrary. The only way the pressure can fall is for something to move, or I assume to wait long enough for the heat to dissipate.

Upon the charge moving the volume of the combustion chamber enlarges rapidly. The shot has moved enough for the pressure to have peaked & started falling before the forcing cone comes into play. I can well see the lower compression of the steel compared to lead resulting in a slowing of the pressure fall so that the pressure may remain higher through the cone with steel than with lead, but I do not see it giving an increase in the max peak pressure of the load.

Also, I do not see an increase of pressure being the cause of the bulged chokes with early steel loads. Most users of steel went to larger shot sizes & they simply "Jammed" in the choke reduction & battered the thin walls in that area. Later steel loads use thicker, more compressible walls in their shot cups so that problem has been greatly lessened.

What about a Baikal SXS ?
Cheaper than your ammo for the day and if you run out of shells you can beat things to death with it.

I recall an article that reported one of the proof houses in the UK deliberately fired a Baikal 12 ga. barrel with a deliberately obstructed barrel by placing a 20 ga. shell ahead of the 12. With high speed videography of the barrel, the pressure bulge could be seen travelling down the barrel and out like a rabbit going down a diamondback with no apparent damage to the barrel. I've also read claims by Benelli doing the same with one of its pump guns.

I cannot remember who it was, but there was a frequent poster here who once told of doing that same thing for a class of youth to whom he was teaching gun safety. He said the Baikal simple blew the 20 ga. out the muzzle with no apparent damage to the gun.

SRH

TSS proves lack of compression plays very little part in the equation.

I suspect the early troubles steel shot had was because of the steel rusting in the hull turning the shot charge into basically a slug.

A friend tells of the time he raised his Ithaca trap single and no shot at the target. Embarrased for not loading, he was careful to load this time. Heavy recoil and an odd report followed. He hit the bird and the remnants of the 20ga hull landed on top of the trap house. No permanent damage to the gun.