So bird season is over, many of us are snowed in, and it's raining here in the desert. How about we try to ID some of the shotguns in these vintage images. Unfortunately, I don't have locations nor dates for most. Feel free to add an image, but please number so contributors can indicate which pic. This might keep the combatants occupied until spring turkey season

#1 I'm betting a Baker or Lefever. Definitely wearing a "recoil boot"



#2 is Grover Cleveland in 1907 with a one-of-a-kind American double



#3 Aldo Leopold in Sauk County Wisconsin

#4 a 4-fer. Clark Gable in 1935



#5 Carole Lombard in S. Dakota



#6 Clint Eastwood's "Westley Richards" in "Unforgiven."



#7 John Wayne's "Greener" in "Big Jake"

Aldo's gun on the left is his Fox...20 ga I believe.

Stephen Grover Cleveland- LeFever 12 gauge-- Aldo Leopold in WI- one of the two shotguns is his 20 gauge A.H. Fox-- John Clark Gable 1935- the O/U is a Remington M32-only made in 12 gauge-- Just a "SwAG" on the side-by-side with the beavertail forearm, but I'll guess a Parker- possibly a skeet gun- Not enough detail to guess the third shotgun-possibly a pump- both Gable, Gary Cooper and Phil Harris shot either M12's in 28 gauge, and or- M42 skeet guns. Cooper's wife Veronica Balfe Cooper (aka- Rocky) was Calif. State Women's skeet champion for most of the 1930's--Carole Lombard in S.D. with nice GSP-- maybe one of Augustus Pachmyer's re-stocked double gun- DT-- but the Germanic "schnoble" on the forearm is a suggestion. Clint's 10 bore hammer gun- more likely a Colt--similar to that used (briefly) by Steve McQueen in the early scene of "The Magnificent 7"-

Just as a side-bar-- Carole Lombard gave Clark Gable a DHE 28 gauge Parker- most likely ordered from Alex Kerr's sporting goods in LA-- around 1938-- Not sure of the sn. or the barrel length or chokes- if I had to guess, I'd guess a DHE skeet grade Parker--

#3 a winner!
"Aldo Leopold: His Life and Work" by Curt D. Meine. p. 193 excerpt (time period is 1921) - The Tome Club became Leopold's main hunting grounds...Aldo indulged in a new shotgun, a beautifully engraved, 20 gauge, double-barrelled Ainsley H. Fox that cost the princely sum of three hundred dollars.
Researcher no doubt knows the grade.


#8 "Ty Cobb Presented With a Target Buster", Du Pont Magazine, August 1915

#9 Hemingway and Gene Van Guilder at Sun Valley



#10 At Club de Cazadores del Cerro, Rancho Boyeros, Cuba

Nope on Grover, Carole & Clint.

#4 Yes, Remington 32 AND his Model 21 and M12. Not sure about the double on his left arm.



Gable also had a Parker BHE 32" barrel with BTFE 28g SN 201993 shipped 6-13-23 (obviously purchase later), a 32" BHE 20g, a DHE given him by Joan Bennett, and a VR A-1 Special purchased at the New York Sportsman's Show, from the Remington rep Cliff Baldwin, after the NYC premier of Gone With the Wind Dec. 19, 1939. He later gave the A-1 to Gary Cooper.
His primary skeet gun was a Cutts equipped Remington M11

#11 How about a double rifle? Kapititi plains, Kenya, 1909

#12. Likely someone here can ID the grades of the Parkers, and might even have one of them. Is Nash holding a Winchester Repeating Shotgun Model of 1893 or 1897?



#13. Here's a hint, and ID the guns and the shooters; "The 4 B's of Ogden Utah"

Didn’t Grover Cleveland have a Parker with 34” barrels? That gun is not his Lefever.

Grover's was one-of-a-kind by a classic American maker not esp. known for double guns. Bill Murphy knows, and it is his favorite gauge

In the 4-gun picture of Clark Gable a Remington Model 32, a Winchester Model 21, a Parker and a Remington Model 17. His Skeet Gun was a "Sportsman" the three-shot version of the Model 11 --



Nash is likely holding the lower gun in this picture --



Grover Cleveland the only known 8-gauge Colt Model 1883.

It was Grover Cleveland's nemesis, Benjamin Harrison, that shot a Lefever, or at least was presented one by Lefever Arms Co.

By the size of it, many of us believe the gun in that picture isn't really Ty Cobb's gun. The Ty Cobb gun is a straight gripped 26-inch barrel 16-gauge DE-Grade --



It was the May 2018 Card of the Month on the A.H. Fox Collectors Association, Inc. web site.

Thank you Dave

Grover's Colt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTNwcybihH0&feature=youtu.be

Gable and John Barrymore skeet shooting in the Hollywood Hills



Forest & Stream Aug. 1915

#9 Papa shooting his Browning Superposed which may be owned by one of our own in Pocatello.

#9 is correct

#14



#15



#16

Gene Van Guilder is shooting his Ithaca NID 12 gauge- Papa the Browning 12 with DT and solid rib he won in a European Live Bird shoot -awarded by John Browning's eldest son- Val -- about 1932- he beat out Ben Gallagher in a 100 bird event- I believe they shot box released birds-

Later on, Papa with the W&C Scott 12 bore live bird gun he bought used in Italy about 1948-- took to Africa, Sun Valley, Cuba- in about 1960 he had A&F remove the sling swivel fittings- this was the shotgun Papa used to end his life in July 1961-- Not a Boss doublegun, as some had reported. RWTF

The 4 Browning brothers- John sold the patent right to WRA on the first pumpgun he designed- the M1893- later re-designed into the M1897- for the newer smokeless powders extant. Lotsa parts, heavy, but I'd love to have a dollar bill for every duck, goose and pheasant hat fell to a "corn shellin' Winchester" Legendary Captain Harold Money (Nash's Shootin'est Gent'man) shot a 97 12 gauge. RWTF

Full credit for Hemingway #9 & #10

1/2 credit on #13
The 4 B's are "Gus" Becker, John M. Browning, A.P. Bigelow, and Matthew S. Browning. Becker is holding a Winchester Model of 1887 lever action shotgun and the Brownings Winchester 1893 Repeating Shotguns. I've not been able to confirm Bigelow's double.
The photo was possibly taken at the 37th annual tournament of the New York State Association for the Protection of Fish and Game June 1895 at Saratoga Springs, N. Y., but the 4 shot together regularly in the West
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/47929 lists the guns and loads used by the Brownings

John Browning in the same shawl sweater

Cool Thread

For Fox

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjEcOkwV2MU

Some of those 97 Winchesters could be Marlins. I think it is the 1898 Marlin that looks so similar but is a fairly dangerous gun to shoot.

Here are a couple more interesting photos. Some of these birds would be fun to ID as well.

Photo A


Photo B - this one obviously shot with the .30=30 and #9 TSS shot


Photo C - Interesting gun on the left


Photo D
Shotgun could be anything, but game photos with little kids are always good.


Photo E


Photo C

Photo "B" rifle in hand is a Colt Lightning, medium frame. shotgun leaning against shed perhaps a Mdl 10 Remington or Marlin.

Aldo Leopold shot a fox XE 20 gauge that he ordered with no safety.

Aldo and Nash Buckingham must have been on the same page-- I believe some of his double guns had no top tang located safety-RWTF

Thanks, Dr. Drew-- I'll watch any movie with Steve McQueen in it- The Great Escape, The Magnificent 7, and my all-time favorite: "Bullitt"-- wonder how Steve ID'd the sawed-off M97 pump the "hitman" was pointing at him as a Winchester-when he reported the car chase and fire/explosion to his C.O. in the movie..

Both McQueen and Yul Bryuner died of cancer, as did John Wayne, Gary Cooper and Humphrey Bogart. Great actors from another era indeed. RWTF

I agree with the Colt pump action rifle as per the photo- I am thinking more towards the Marlin on the pump shotgun however, clearly Not a Win. M93 or M97-- you have a good eye for details. It could also be a 1897 Winchester-- but the through pin in the magazine tube near the hanger seems, at a glance, to be longer than found on the M97 take-down series- also seems that the tube itself is a bit longer than on the WRA pumpgun-- but that's just a "SWAG" on my part. RWTF

#6 was a no name 10g sidelever



#7 American GUN Co. Crescent

That Wesley Richards from what I can see of it looks very much like my W Richards, a lower grade J P Clabrough.

I believe in days of Yore in the west Greener was somewhat synonymous for Shotgun. Doc Holiday has been stated to have used a Greener at the OK Corral, but as I recall it has been identified as a "Meteor".

The shotgun in Photo A could be a W Richards. I had one like it once. What is the bird in A? I think I know what it is, but I might have some inside info.

Photo B is definitely a Colt Lightning. The shotgun looks a lot like a Winchester 97 to me, with the way the mag tube release is shown. But if it is, then the forearm has been worn or sanded down a lot. The face of the receiver looks like it is a takedown like my 97, but maybe the Marlin was similar. I haven't pulled out anything to compare yet.

PHoto 16 could be my Greener except for the skeleton buttplate. But I suppose it could be a lot of other shotguns as well.

I would guess #16 is a Parker, A friend of mine once owned an AHE Parker that belonged to Clark Gable, we were not convinced until my wife called Kay Spreckels (his last wife) she confirmed that it was his.

I'm guessing #11 is likely Teddy's famous "Big Stick". (I worked for his grandson Archie, who was a high ranking CIA officer. As were a few other relatives from that side of the Roosevelt family. The most famous being grandson--not son--Kermit, known as Kim, who engineered the coup that brought the Shah of Iran back to power in the 50's.)

Re Gable, I recall seeing a Parker at a gun show that was given to him by Carole Lombard. CHE, IIRC.

Follow up on Aldo Leopold's 20: his son Starker was my major professor at Berkeley, and died suddenly in August 1983, just in time to avoid reading my thesis. Afterwards, his wife told me that he had left a 20 for repair at a local gunsmith but she could never find a receipt and no local shops admitted to having it (needless to say, there are no gun shops in Berkeley today). She didn't know the maker, only that it was valuable, and I have always wondered if that might have been Aldo's gun.

#11 is likely Roosevelt's famous Holland and Holland double rifle. For anyone who would be interested it is featured in the 1 1/2 hr. documentary/movie by George Butler, and released in 1989 entitled In The Blood. It is a very well done documentary about a safari in 1986 on which Butler's grandson, 13 yr. old Tyssen Butler, takes his first big game animal, a Cape buffalo, with Roosevelt's rifle. Roosevelt's grandson, Ted, is on the safari, along with R L Wilson (author) and others. The famous Kenyan PH Robin Hurt is key in the film as well. There is an underlying question that is addressed at great length in the film concerning the killing of big game as a means of conservation of the species.

One of the finest hunting films I've ever seen ........... very emotional at times, and with much actual footage of Roosevelt's 1909 safari with his son, Kermit. So as not to sidetrack Drew's fine thread, anyone interested can pm me for more information about it.

SRH

Number 16 is John Phillip Sousa holding his AAH Parker safetyless 30" pigeon gun, now an ejector gun. I have held this gun in my hands, but was outbid by another collector at auction. I was luckier with three other Sousa guns and am still hoping to add the AAH to my collection. I don't know who owns it now, having been told that the person at the auction has sold it. Drew has a picture of Sousa with his famous Lindner Daly Sextuple Diamond Grade single trap gun.

The "Boy Scout" in Photo C appears to be holding a .410 bore Lefever Long Range Single Barrel Field and Trap Gun.

Researcher,
Thanks! I had no idea what that was. At first glance I thought it might be a rifle like a Savage 99 but obviously not on second glance. I think that must be it.

#11 Stan is correct; Holland & Holland .500/.450 3 1/4" Royal Hammerless non-ejector.

As Bill said, #16 AAH(E?) Parker is in a private collection. The location of #14 is unknown. #15 is at the Marine Corps Museum in Quantico, which also has his 26" 20g L.C. Smith with a Miller Single Trigger purchased after a serious riding accident 9-6-1921.

His Lindner Daly

The CHE part I get- a grade 4 Parker hammerless ejector- but what is the IIRC code mean, if you please. RWTF

IIRC;
If I Recall Correctly

I questioned the gun my Mother is holding at Sioux Lake, Minnesota, Sept. 16, 1930, many decades ago, when people who were there were still living, and no one could think of a hammer double in the family.

Thanks- learn something new every day.. RWTF

Another image of #15

# 16 looks to be a long legged Fox w/skeleton butt plate. No idea who the gent is.

Why a Fox in particular. Minus the skeleton buttplate, it could be almost anything. What are you seeing?

My guess- a 12 gauge L.C. Smith hammer gun. Nice looking Lady indeed-thanks for posting it--RWTF

Not having seen "In the Blood" for a long time, I had to do a little checking. Was pretty sure it wasn't a TR grandson who was on the trip. It was TR V, the president's great great grandson.

Sousa's gun #14 is hard, and likely a Lindner Daly small bore double



#15 is his L.C Smith A2 with 32" barrels.
Sporting Life, June 19, 1909
Syracuse, N. Y., June 11.
The fifty-first annual shoot of the New York State Sports Men’s Association was held on June 7, 8, 9 and 10, under the auspices of the Onondago County Gun Club. In the long history of these events no tournament was ever so successful. The entry list was extremely heavy and the competition, on a high plane. The Niagara-on-the-Lake grounds adjoined the beautiful Syracuse Yacht Club and stretched up from the lake, toward a fine background, though the lay of the field may have fooled some of the contestants at the beginning.
Many notable shooters were present including a large field of professionals. J. Phillip Sousa was one of the most conspicuous of the notabilities and his witty sayings and ready answers were much enjoyed by all, and shoots the finest grade the Hunter people make in the L.C. Smith.

Sousa's L.C. Smith A2 and a Field Grade 20 gauge FW are both held in the collection of the National Museum of the Marine Corps.

Both are currently on display. Come visit and see them....

That bottom end speaks Baker model 1897.

John

Just wondering about the 1915 Fox ad-- what does the length of the water table have to do with the ease of opening and closing a double gun? Anyone have an explanation of that?? RWTF

#13...mr. Ted schlitz'fer'brains granpappy with his Mossberg pump.

#5 Gable gave Carole Lombard a 20g Crown grade Smith, EOBV, 28" barrels, as a wedding present March 29, 1939. The gun was completed on 1/16/39 and shipped the same day to Harper and Reynolds, Los Angeles.

#17 President Eisenhower on a quail hunt at the plantation of his first Secretary of Treasury George Humphreys in 1961.

Fairly simple actually. Just apply the principle of a lever. The longer the water-table the further it is from the breech to the hinge pin. Using extremes if the barrels were 30" & length to center of the hinge was 2" vs 3" then with the short action you would have a lever of 28" while with the long one you would have a 27" lever. Not a lot of difference, But, there's another factor. With the short action, the barrels have to open through a longer arc, Arbitrarily let's say on the long action the barrels pivot 20° while on the short one they pivot 30°. The force required to cock the gun is thus spread out over a longer period of time, making it easier at any point.

The same would apply on closing if ejectors are cocked on closing or on a Self-Opener. On non-self openers and guns which do not cock ejectors on closing then I believe the long actioned gun would close just a wee bit easier.

#17 . . . Ike had a Model 21, but that one's obviously an OU. Looks to be sideplated/sidelock. Maybe one of the Beretta SO's? But all of those were 12's, and that one looks to be a smallbore.

If Drew is right about #14 being a Prussian Daly, (I can't tell from the picture), it is probably keeping his Daly Sextuple company in my gun room. It came from the same family as my other two Sousa guns, but I needed help from Bob Beach and Griffin and Howe to make a Sousa connection for the Daly double. It is a rare safetyless Diamond Grade pigeon gun, made as an exact duplicate of his AAH Parker. Thanks, Drew, for this great thread.

D looks to be a D grade or higher Parker when enlarged. TR's H&H double rifle is in the NRA museum.

The gun most often attributed to Carol Lombard is a DHE 20 gauge Parker with a Mershon White Line pad. The South Dakota picture of Carol doesn't seem to be the Parker.

Extra credit for Bro. Larry. That picture is not of Eisenhower's M21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6EJkvSJxbQ

President Eisenhower shooting clay targets launched from a Naval escort vessel while cruising the Potomac aboard 'Barbara Anne' with Capt. E.P. Aurand, Sept. 1960.



Eisenhower and George C. Marshall both owned Ithaca doubles, but I don't know the grades nor locations thereof. Marshall's Ithaca is not listed in the Marshall Museum
https://www.marshallfoundation.org/museum/
I can't find information as to the O/U in that image - it certainly could have been a plantation loaner

Interesting infro re: Presidential guns here
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/2/15/the-guns-of-us-presidents/
Roosevelt's Frederick Adolph .450-500 NE "Big Stick" never made it to Africa

More infro re Hemingway's M21 and Harrison's Optimus
https://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/2016/09/the-top-12-most-famous-shotguns#page-7

EOBV- could you please decipher those Alphas, Dr. D. RWTF

From the Field & Stream text on Eisenhower's Model 21. Fake news by the mass media!! The Olins didn't yet own Winchester when the Model 21 was designed. Pretty much the work of Frank Burton and Louis Stiennon, building on early work by and under the direction of T.C. Johnson.

E - automatic ejectors
O - Hunter selective one-trigger
B - beavertail forend
V - ventilated rib

Youz guys are so smart, here's a hard one, and I don't have the answers

Calvin Coolidge on Sapelo Island, Georgia in 1925 with his host Howard Coffin. Looks to be a deer in the wagon, and a dour Calvin has a long barrel double



Sapelo Island c. 1927 with Colonel Latrobe with a short barrel double





AP Sept. 6, 1928 file photo him shooting trap with a Model 12 at his vacation home on the Brule at Superior, Wis. He scored 29X37.



What are the doubles, and where are the guns now?

I don't know about the guns, but that's a hell of a hat. He might shoot better with it tipped back a might bit.

Thanks- so "Fully Optioned" would also be an accurate description?? RWTF- still haven't guessed the make, model and gauge of the 2 triggered double with the schnabel styled forearm Carole (Not Carol) Lombard is holding in the SD pheasant hunting foto 1935-- Any ideas from your end???

Yup- and Old "Silent Cal" has the stock comb waaay down below his jaw line-- the old "Head-up" shooting style many clays and live bird and game shots used prior to WW1--Don't think of Cal as being a smile-maker-- he always looked like he put pickle juice on his Wheaties at breakfast-- Talk about your "Hands-off" POTUS-- RWTF

That is what I've always thought, but no one in the family could recollect such a gun?

2 special Parkers. Bill & Dean will know

This is thought to be William Harnden Foster's son, shooting Foster's Parker - gauge and grade?



What is special about this not-plain-ol' Trojan?

Didn't William H. Foster shoot a 28 gauge Parker for grouse and woodcock- and possibly for his "Shooting Around The Clock" clay target games that late became skeet?? RWTF

William Simon, Secretary of the Treasury from 1974 to 1977, owned the TR rifle when In the Blood was made. He appeared in the video and, I think supported it financially.

Simon was a graduate of Lafayette College and a major donor to it. He donated the funds that were used to build the Simon Center, home of the Lafayette Economics Department. One of his conditions in making the donation was that his operational 19th century Gatling Gun be prominently displayed in the lobby of the building. Rumor was that this was partially based on laws in New Jersey preventing him from keeping the Gatling Gun there. It was enclosed in a thick plexi-glass case. After his death, the College was pleased to return it to his family, as the insurance costs of maintaining it in the building were substantial.

I realize how entertaining the skunk squirt threads are, but ya' gotta try harder guys

Foster Sr. shot a 27" barrel 20 gauge DHE Parker SN 225905

And what's the deal with that Trojan with a BTFE??


I don't have an answer to this one either.

John Wayne in "McLINTOCK!". The film was shot at Old Tucson Studios, west of Tucson, and also at San Rafael Ranch near Patagonia https://www.nogalesinternational.com/the...e215a61d68.html
Territorial Governor Cuthbert H. Humphrey was not a historical character. The setting was probably Colorado (Mesa Verde and Denver are mentioned) which became a State in 1876. The Comanche were first sent to Fort Sill in 1875.



The pheasant hunting scene starts just past 1:16 and a good view of gun is at 1:18. It appears to be a hammer ejector with something inlayed into the right side of the stock, and a "White Line" pad? It has been suggested that the shells used are 1960s green Remingtons?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9wNbD7wJrQ

BTW: The first pheasant season opened in Oregon in 1892; not introduced into Kansas until 1906 and S. Dakota in 1908

I was re-reading this thread when I recognized the Lefever single shot being held by the kid in the campaign hat pictured in Brent's post. Nothing else looks like it. I was just about to skip ahead and post my accomplishment when I ran into Researcher's post beating me to it by several pages. I coulda been a contender...Geo

Below are some pictures of the Numbers Book and Day Book entries of Teddy's Holland and Holland 500/450.

It has 26" barrels which seem to have been the most common length in early large bore Holland Nitro chamberings.

Number Book




Day Book

wonder what Teddy had against ejectors- this H&H and his High grade A.H. Fox 12 bore- both guns w/o ejectors? RWTF

A lot of discouraging threads here have been locked or disappeared lately. Could be we've awakened our moderator. Good...Geo

I wonder too, not necessarily with the Fox, but more so with the H a& H rifle. I would think ejectors to be much appreciated on a dangerous game double rifle.

SRH

Many shooters did not trust or like ejector on double rifles. Funniest reason I’ve herd is the “noise” they make when kicking out the spent cases. Funny because two booming discharges might have tipped off the big game where you were. Another reason I’ve heard that a ejector failure was considered a real problem if it occurred. Extractors were tried and true, with a brute force cam action to extract the case so you could remove and reload. If your Spring was weak or not able to cam the case out if swollen your gun could become a single shot or worse inoperable. And some just did not want to spend the extra money.

As I recall John Taylor AKA Pondora did not like ejectors. After I have killed my 1,000th elephant I will tell him he was wrong.
The "Booming" sound of firing a big bore is not as easy to locate in heavy cover as it echos around, as is the click of an ejector.

I have a copy of his book "African Rifles & Cartridges" but would have to pull it out & see for certain what all he said on the subject, but that I do recall from memory.

From actual experience on FAR smaller Beasts, I have seen squirrels not quit cutting hickory nuts and other masts when one was shot with a shotgun, yet a breaking of a small twig on the ground may well send them Scampering.

My experience in hunting Dangerous Game in thick cover is a Giant NIL, so can't really speak from experience there. I would put a lot of stock in what Taylor had to say though, even if he was a poacher.

I have couple of Bell's books, but don't remember him mentioning ejectors. Doesn't mean it's not in there, tho'. Been a long time since I read them. He killed a lot of elephants with a bolt action rifle as I recall. An ejector's "click" certainly is not as noisy as the sound of a bolt gun opening and closing.

I'd like to hear several PHs opinions on the subject. What I don't know about it would fill volumes.

SRH

I seem to recall reading that a few PHs were fans of very simple designs, sans single triggers or ejectors. Both have reputations that might be a liability on a working gun.
The most dangerous game ever in my world we’re the skunks that invariably ended up in my fox sets, hell hath no fury like an 8th grade teacher forced to smell skunk for the second time in a week.

Best,
Ted

Bell indeed did use a bolt action for the vast majority of his hunting. Two of his favorites were the 6.5mm Mannlicher & the 7x57 Mauser which most folks do not consider Elephant rifles. As I recall he killed more than 500 Elephants with that little .276 (7x57). "IF" a critter is charging you are not concerned about Noise. If on the other hand, one is simply reloading after a shot with critters still present which it is undesirable to give away your location a bolt action can be worked softly & virtually Noiseless.

I do not have any of Bell's books but near the end of his life, he wrote an article in the American Rifleman with a summation of his years of experience in Africa. It was extremely interesting & I have re-read it several times. Bell hunted in a different time frame than did Taylor & both conditions & their technics were different.

It may have been in one of Capstick's books that discussed as an aside that some native kills of elephants were with muzzleloaders wherein the hunter would sneak underneath the elephant and shoot up and through the "armpit" of the animal towards the location of the heart. No marksmanship required; just guts.

These gentlemen appear to know of which they speak
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/double-rifle-ejectors-vs-extractor.34881/

Dean & Bill are holding back on us
Here's the Trojan Skeet gun thread; you have to sign in for the images

http://www.parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=132889

OK. Another Carole Lombard. A promo still for "Made For Each Other" released in Feb. 1939



Cutts equipped solid rib pump, and I don't see a barrel band. Dave has not seen a catalog listing for a Remington Model 17 Skeet gun; likely a Model 31 but the barrel doesn't look like a 12g
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=217091

Not the autoloader she was using at the Santa Monica Gun Club in 1938

I believe the eagle in photo A is a immature Bald Eagle.

I read all three pages. Very interesting. Several PHs, and clients with multiple dangerous game hunts, prefer ejectors. A few don't. The more I read, the more I learned. The preferred method of reloading an extractor DR is to tilt the breech down and let the cases fall free, then rotate back right-side up and reload. This assumes a tapered, rimmed case and not a belted case with a recessed rim. The point is stated over and over that the ping of the ejectors may alert DG to your position. What will the sound of two big brass hulls pinging together as they fall free from the chambers onto the ground do? Ejected hulls rarely land on top off each other to make a noise.

One PH made the point that, even using the "tilt and fall free" method of reloading an extractor gun, it is still a good two seconds slower than using ejectors. I dunno from experience, but I'll just bet that two seconds when a buff or elephant is bearing down on you is an eternity. I know darn well how quickly a 400# wild hog can cover a few yards coming towards you.

Another point. If I am going to the Dark Continent for DG with a DR I am going to practice shooting and reloading many, many times. I am going to instill in my mind the importance of breaking that rifle open as quickly as humanly possible after firing that second round. I believe it would be easily learned to have those shells ejected by the time the game recovered from the sound of the gunfire, thereby taking away that opportunity for the game to identify your position by the ping of the ejectors. Having taken many deer or hogs out of a herd/drove I have seen the befuddled look for a few brief seconds as the survivors try to figure out what just happened. Not always, but often.

Having shot S x S ejector guns for many years on a "hot" dove field, I am quite accustomed to sweeping that top lever swell with the heel of my hand within a second or two after the last round clears the muzzle.

Interesting discussion. Thanks again for the link, Doc.

SRH

It looks like a plain Model 31A "Standard" Grade with a Cutts that Carole is holding in that promo shot.

Here is Osa Johnson in Africa with her U.S. made double --



and here is a bit closer look --

Thanks Dave.
Osa was a Kansas girl
https://www.kshs.org/kansapedia/martin-and-osa-johnson/12102

Probably her Ithaca 20g
https://books.google.com/books?id=nfBXBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA152&lpg

Yup. Had a chance to buy it at a King of Prussia Gun Show a couple of decades ago, but didn't want a 20-gauge No. 4E with such a short stock. Kinda wish I had.

Yup. Kinda like English Bob shooting pheasants off the train in "Unforgiven". Or, for that matter, Eastwood going from MO to WY in something like 4 days . . . by horse. I kept waiting for him to put his horse on a train.

Given that double rifles are relatively close range weapons, I don't know that ejectors would enable one to get off 3rd or 4th shots at a charging lion, rhino, elephant etc if the first 2 didn't do the job.

Or even one step further on "Unforgiven" Big Whiskey 1881- the posse tells "Little Bill" Daggett- that the gen store won't give them any 30-30 shells "on credit"-- 13 years before the .30WCF round came onto the market- first smokelesspowder CF round, I believe.

At least Gene Hackman described the "common failing" of the 1847 Walker Colt when he compared it to "The best friend a man has all his life, so to speak. Great movie indeed- RWTF

Which photo? If you mean "photo A" that I posted, I agree that is looks like an immature bald or possibly a golden.

The image filename (which I got who knows where), says "condor" which doesn't seem correct to me. The head does not look like a vulture to me.

Like Stan, I'm no expert on dangerous game guns. But the book "Bell of Africa" states that his preference was for rifles ranging from .256 to .318 caliber--for elephants! (Ruark might have said he wasn't using enough gun, but for Bell it seemed to do the job.) In India, Corbett used a bolt action of similar caliber on most of the tigers he shot, although he did have a double rifle that he used when in situations where he was expecting to have to make a quick shot at close range.

Holland & Holland - Quintessentially the classic British magazine rifle ... and professionals have relied
on this classic British magazine rifle since the early twentieth century.

You may not know it, but several professional hunters, and clients who have hunted multiple countries in Africa, think differently than you. As for me, I have no personal experience, as I said earlier. Wouldn't you think that the closer the dangerous game is the more valuable two seconds saved in reloading to be?

SRH

I have heard it claimed that the noise of the ejectors would give away one's position following the confusion of the shooting, and thus aid the wounded whatever in killing the shooter.

Don't shoot me, I am only relaying an oft heard thread of logic. I'd be using ejectors if I could.

Foxy;
In 1894 Winchester introduced their model 1894 chambered in .38-55 & .32-40, both old Ballard black powder rounds. Their action was strong enough for Smokeless but their barrel steel was too soft. By 1895 they had acquired suitable Nickel Steel barrels & introduced first the. .30 WCF & later in the year the .25-35, both as Smokeless Powder rounds. The .30 WCF was I believe the First Smokeless Power rifle introduced as a Sporting Rifle. As a Military rifle, the .30-40 Krag had preceded it. Worldwide as I recall the very First rifle to be introduced using Smokeless was the French 8mm Lebel.

I once saw an episode of Gunsmoke which showed a calendar dated in the 1870s & Festus pulled a Winchester from his saddle scabbard which was either an 1892 or 1894.

Think we can figure out what Gen. LeMay is shooting --

Well Stan, the information posted in this thread seems to indicate that there are opinions on either side of the ejector question. Having shot driven birds in Scotland on several occasions, I can certainly see their value in that situation. But then those birds aren't going to kill you. It's simply a question of being able to shoot at more of them than you would with extractors. But having watched people shoot double rifles, both in person and on films and videos, it's quite clear that you don't get off the first two shots as quickly with one of those as you can with a shotgun--mainly because of the recovery time from 1st shot to 2nd shot due to the significantly greater recoil of a "stopping rifle". And given that shots with double rifles will almost always be within 100 yards (more often less), it's not going to take a charging lion, buffalo, elephant etc all that long to cover the distance between you and the oncoming beast.

Personally, I think I'd rely more on the PH who's with me and whatever he's carrying if my 2 shots don't do the job. I'd focus my efforts on being able to get off two accurate shots as quickly as possible. But I remain open to being convinced that ejectors would provide much of an advantage over extractors.

Thanks-- didn't realize the Winchester 1894 was offered in those older BP calibers as well as the .30 WCF, and in aprox. 1903- the .32 Special.

Yes indeed, Hollywood has some interesting "gunning goofs". Val Kilmer as "Doc." Holliday with the double barrel "sawed-off" at the OK corral gunfight- fires 3 shots with it in rapid order w/0 ever breaking it open to reload-- Amazing indeed. RWTF

My brother has a 1894 SRC in .32 special that has been passed down from my father's maternal grandfather. He bought it new in 1903. Didn't know it was first year.

Yep-Gen. LeMay and Gen. Arnold- USAAF both advocated skeet as good training in forward allowance shooting-and both shot M12's- Notice the tight fitting vest and the rh pocket "shell bulge" on LeMay- and that he is shooting from an apparent "pre-mounted" position-- RWTF

I have read on numerous occasions the .30-30 was introduced as a black powder cartridge, based solely on the name designation. This is however false. First Win did not name it the .30-30 but as Fox correctly said the .30WCF (Winchester Center Fire). The .38-55, .32-40, .30WCF, .25-35 & .32WS are all based on the same basic case. Had the .30-30 been a black powder cartridge its capacity would have been between the .32-40 & .38-55 so it would have been on the order of a .30-45 to .30-50.

There has been much controversy over the "Reason" for the .32 WS. Dave Scoville of "Rifle/Handloader magazine a few years back published a statement made by Winchester themselves at the time of its introduction.

They stated Flat Out that there were many people of the day who desired to be able to obtain higher power smokeless factory loads for some of their shooting but to also be able to reload with black powder for a less powerful load for much of their use. The .32 WS was deemed the best size for this purpose. The caliber was upped from .30 to .32 but same weight of bullet was kept @ essentially the same power level. Twist rate was changed from 12" for the .30 to 16" for the .32 which was much better with the black.

How about this double?



what did this gunnery training autoloader start out as?



this pump with a "spadegrip adapter"?



and what is wrong with this picture? Zeigfeld Girl Sept., 1943 at Tyndall Field, Florida

The gawd awful Model 24. Big disgrace to the Winchester name.

A "Military Finish" Remington Sportsman.

Can't tell.

Dude on the left has the breech closed on his Remington Model 31.

Let's start with the Ziegfeld Gal and here "skeet squad" first. What's wrong??> All the guys behind this gal have their "ACTIONS CLOSED"- i DON'T CARE UP THEY ARE POINTED UP TOWARDS THE SKY-- THIS A MAJOR MISTAKE IN SAFE GUN HANDLING--

What else did I miss, Dr. Drew?? RWTF OH, I am guessing a Win. M24 for the first photo. About as graceful as a "JackHammer" and nothing like the M21-- that's for certain. But WRA sold a ton of them I guess..

Another winner

#2 Converted Remington



#3 M12 Spadegrip Adapter
http://browningmgs.com/AirGunnery/11_Training.htm

#4 I think the bolts are back on the Remingtons in the hands of the rest of the squad. 1st guy apparently not paying attention, or was distracted

The Great Fields with Winchester's other horrendum --



What is unusual about this picture published May 25, 1907? --

Riehl's Remington Pump Shotgun was introduced in 1908

The great W.R. Crosby left Hunter Arms for Parker in 1906, and finished his career with an Ithaca 5E SBT
Scroll down about 1/2 way
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k2_50HPC18lm2BZmH5SlgYSptcngORnmLTZ5iiW-cpc/preview

"Both" shooters behind the Ziegfeld girl don't have their breeches closed, only the fellow shooting the 31 has his breech closed. We'll never know about Carole Lombard's gun with the schnable forend until the gun surfaces. We do know it's not her DHE 20. I first saw the Lombard DHE in the late fifties or early sixties at the NRA convention at the old Wardman Park Hotel on Connecticut Avenue in Northwest Washington. It was on Herb Glass's table, and I assumed he owned it. Drew, I think the John Wayne pheasant picture doesn't represent an ejector hammer gun. When The Duke opened the gun, there was nothing in the chambers or coming out of the chambers. He was opening an empty gun as I see it. However, in the other pheasant picture, the gun did seem to "eject" the shell. Ejector hammer guns are so scarce, I have no explanation. That gun, with a plaque and a Mershon pad, was probably a prop gun or a gift to Wayne from someone who didn't have a lot of money to spend. This is a great thread.

Carole's Smith in this image was SN 170967, 20 gauge, FwEOBV, 28" barrels

W.C. Fields has a Winchester M11- what a Fubared shotgun-- Mr. Riehl's jacket buttons are NOT all the same color-- 2nd. one down from the top of his jacket is brighter than the others on his jacket-- covering his "Dunlop's Disease" tell-tale bulge-also, Cosby's jacket- 3rd button down from the top one- is un-buttoned.. NBD

Great thread indeed, Dr. Drew- You have outdone yourself here--- This most enjoyable "contest" has been a welcome change from some of the other "Not so polite" posts and replies we sometimes encounter here.

I believe you mean "Zigfeld" here, Herr Eightbore-- common mistake, and NBD- Feld is the Germanic spelling for Field-- Florenz Zigfeld sure had an eye for lovely ladies-- Ja!~! Der Fuchs!!

Looks like the autoloader guy in the middle has his open. The guy on the left not only has his closed, but it's pointed in the direction of his buddies.

It is hard for me to tell from a photograph which way a weapon is pointed. The guy on the left behind the hottie for sure has his chamber closed but the camera angle might only make it appear he's so distracted by the beauty that he is sweeping his buddies. No telling what the two in the middle are doing. The hottie certainly has the action closed and her finger on the trigger...Geo

That's what's wrong with the picture.

Walter Ewing (Individual Gold) and George Beattie (Individual Silver); Canada Team Silver at the 1908 London Olympics. Both shot a U.S. maker's double popular in Canada

And both double guns ( can we guess at the maker(s) Dr. D.?? also have handguards - when did they become popular for volume shooting- prior to the intro of the beavertail forearm design I am sure. RWTF

I can clearly see two triggers on the gun Carole is holding in this picture.

Dave may be correct. HOT however could be ordered in the forward position. I do not know the current location of Carole's Crown.

re: Walter & George



The 1st GAH Double Target Championship was won by H.E. Buckwalter of Royersford, Pa. with 18x20 using a Lefever.

As do I, Sir. No "HOT" on this graded 20 bored "Elsie"?? And was the schnobble styled BT forearm a "custom item". As Clark Gable ordered this for her as a wedding gift (some gift indeed)-- wonder if old Clark had any side-by-sides with a Germanic styled forearm??

But, as this has been one of the best of all-time threads ever to be posted on the DG-BBS website- NBD. Again, thanks to our "MC" here, Dr. Drew-- fantastic photos and research on his part- RWTF

The more I look at this picture, I'm thinking Fox "Skeeter" --

Clearly, not all schnoble forends were created equal.

Carole's forend has the definite Fox look. Runs, not only did I spell Ziegfeld incorrectly, you did also, in post #541576. We are at a draw. We saw some great Fox skeet guns at the Baltimore Show this weekend, but no schnables. A great Skeet and Upland, and a greater Kautsky trigger gun, an SPE Skeet, in near mint condition. Both sold to Fox collectors who know a good buy when they see it.

A 1926 VR Smith Crown

That we are indeed- oh 8-bore, that we are. I yield to your expertise re: A.H. Fox and other fine American side-by-sides.

?? if I may: Why was the "Skeeter" choked imp. mod. right barrel (front trigger) and imp. cyl. left barrel)-rear trigger- isn't that "Bss-Ackwards?"-- A friend has a pre-WW2 M21 Skeet- 16 ga. 26" barrels, right barrel WS-1 choke, and left barrel WS-2. His gun has the SST, pg and B'tail forearm, buttplate checkered but no steel plate as on a Parker with their skeleton steel series.

No much call for 16 gauge skeet guns for competition, but a great combination for: grouse, quail, woodcock and snipe- with a good tight holding dog on point.

How much, if any, difference is there on the older Winchester shotguns between, say: WS-1 and imp. cyl., and WS-2 and mod. ??

Sounds like you had a good show.

Another Olympic quiz - Team Gold at the 1924 Olympics, the last year of team competition
Samuel Sharman, William Silkworth, John Noel, Fred Etchen (top right) and Frank Hughes (second from right and high gun in the Team Competition with 92). Wilford Fawcett (bottom left), Captain, and Clarence Platt. Top 4 scores; Etchen, Hughes, Sharman & Silworth 363x400, counted toward the Team medals. Frank Hughes won a Bronze in the Individual Competition with a 97.
The gentleman in the middle, back row is John "Cap" Grier who was competing in 50m Rifle.
Hughes was the only competitor using a double; by what maker? (hint - check out the FE escutcheon)



Elliott's Shooting Park, 1931 courtesy of Randy Davis. Arie & Jenny used the same maker's gun

Today I finally got around to getting pout Taylor's book, African Rifles & Cartridges". I have the NRA Classic Firearms Library Special Edition, copyright 1995.
The original edition was published by Samworth with a 1948 copyright date. Ejectors were discussed on pages 29 & 30 if you have a copy of either. In a condensed version, keep in mind "Pondora" was an Ivory Hunter, not a "Sportsman per se. When he found a large herd of Elephants, he was not intending to shoot just "One". As he was hunting at a later date than Bell & some others he was mostly hunting in heavy Brush or cover, rather than open Grassland. He still tried to find the "Lead" bull & drop it with one shot.
The noise of a Big gun Booming 9in the cover was difficult to pinpoint & the rest of the herd would sort of loll around waiting on the lead bull to sound the alarm if needed, not realizing he was Dead. It was desirable to Reload that first barrel before trying for the next animal & this needed to be done in complete silence. His practice was to open the gun, remove the fired empty & drop it in a pocket, then reload the chamber & close the gun while holding the top lever so nothing Snapped shut to make a noise. The sound of ejectors pinging or the cartridge case ringing from striking something solid would normally send the herd stampeding out of the area. By following this above practice he stated he could often kill several Elephants all in the same general location without further tracking & also convenient for the Skinners & Ivory harvesters. "IF" actually charged after the shot he said it mattered little if one had ejectors or not, their life depended on that One Shot left in the gun, which was the reason for reloading after the one shot before taking on another. Made sense to me, but as I previously stated my experience at Dangerous Game is a Big Fat Zero/0.

One thing he strongly believed was that a hunter of Dangerous Game should have ALL his rifles similarly equipped, He did not believe in having one with a single trigger & another with double triggers nor one with ejectors & another with extractors, & he was thoroughly convinced a Dangerous Game rifle SHOULD NOT have an Automatic Safety.

Sure that wasn't photoshopped? Mark Arie without a Marlin pump?

Mark has his Marlin in this team picture --

Mark Arie used his Marlin Model 28D (introduced in 1913) in the Olympic games. The gun and Olympic medals are shown on p. 396 in Marlin Firearms: A History of the Guns and the Company That Made Them by William S. Brophy but is mislabeled as a Model 43 which was not introduced until 1922.

1914



But was the first shooter to run 100 straight doubles from scratch when he broke the first 163 in a 200-bird race at the Great Western Handicap at the Denver Municipal TC on July 18, 1926 with his Smith



BTW: Troeh's Smith in that image was not his Crown grade; HOT and AE, Schnabel BTFE and Monte Carlo stock, no safety and 2 7/8" chambers. Research by Dr. Jim showed the gun to have been consigned to Troeh in March 1928. It is not known if he used the gun to win the Grand American Doubles in 1928 (after winning in 1927).
Interestingly, the gun was return to Hunter Arms March 31, 1929, then sold to J.R. Graham (Gold Medal at the 1912 Olympics) in Sept. 1930.

Troeh mostly used a Model 12 on singles



Bart Lewis had the high average in 1922 and won the Grand American Doubles in 1926. He shot a Crown grade Double Barrel Trap with 32" Whitworth steel barrels, Hunter One-Trigger, and a straight grip stock.

Did Mark Arie have a nickname? Seems to me I heard one for him, like "Old Fritz" for Fritz Gilbert.. RWTF

Granny Clampett was mostly filmed with a long barrel double in The Beverly Hillbillies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpuW-aREDgA

and in "The Clampetts Shoot Skeet" episode
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cztm3A50yGs

Ellie May's double



but the opening sequence has Granny carrying a shorter barrel double, which has been IDd

Drew,
Ellie May's looks to have cocking indicators on sideplates and semi pistol grip. Must be a Lefever DS grade.
Jeff

Good eye Jeff. Wish I knew.

Granny's shotgun in the opening sequence was a 24" 'The Continental' by Simonis, Janssen & Dumoulin

RWTF I came late to this thread, but the hit man in Bullitt was using a Winchester M97 in the hotel hit, and why wouldn't he be using the same in the car chase scene. That Winchester M97 must have been "Special Ordered" as it had shells in the magazine tube with the barrel off, as I remember, when he put it together. With my M97 you cannot take the barrel off with shells in the tube, and if you try and load the tube with the barrel off, they all run out on the floor. But hey, it's the movies,and Bullitt is also my favorite, and I believe the first modern movie to start all the "chase scenes" that followed.
Dennis

Nice observations, Dennis. If someone wants to watch a movie in which the gun stuff is usually on target (but with typical Hollywood tampering with history), John Milius always seemed to be pretty careful about that.

Bullitt chase scene (with a recurring green VW )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no7XR7s8Z7o

the hit man loads his M97 in part 2 at about 2 min.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Sd-qZNdxc

Thank you, Dennis- But remember, McQueen wasn't in the cheap hotel top floor room when the hit man came in with the cut-down M97-- His only view of this "alley sweeper" was when he was in the car chase scene- and got the Mustang variant he drove (he did all his own driving scenes in that movie)- and later recounting the incident to his Captain- mentioned "Winchester pump"- didn't really specify the M97- just Winchester pump-

You are right about the magazine in that Hollywood shotgun, all my 7 M12's ( I recently sold a 12 M97-only one I owned)-- you cannot dis-assemble the gun with rounds in the magazine- so my guess is, the Hollywood studio armorers must have modified that M97-- although they show the bad guy in the car scene thumbing two 3 hulls into the magazine, before peppering McQueen's windshield with OO buck.

I'm by no means a "gunsmith" as you are- and if I were younger, would love to take one of your 1 week courses in the summer. I was an armorer in the military (parts changer) but my main "trade" has always been welding, specializing in the TIG process. Do I understand correctly that you are versed in this process and use it in your profession?

Thanks again for your most insightful reply.. RWTF

Not a real movie guy, but as I am not familiar with John's work, could you please name a few recent (last 10 years)movies he either directed or produced, would like to "see for myself"--

I surmise Stevie Spielberg is not in that same mileu as John- in "Saving Private Ryan"-- the left-handed Ranger Pvt. (played by Barry Pepper) is in a tower, sniping German troops from the higher advantage point snipers prefer-- he fires 8 rounds from his modified and scoped 1903 BA- without reloading- and doing this from the "southpaw" side, taking the rifle out of his shoulder to work the RH Bolt- a 1903 only holds 5 rounds-- RWTF

Thought I'd resurrect this thread for Clark & Carole, and for fun. BTW Clark's DHE may have been from Joan Bennett rather than Carole.

Fred MacMurray in 1936 and he was apparently one of Hollywood's best skeet shooters
http://www2.powercom.net/~fredmac/fam.html

It appears on all the older pictures the shooters were brought up the same way I was....no hearing protection.

well of course. He was from wisconsin.

Drew's picture of Cap Grier reminds me that General Grier was a Winchester pro, shot a pair of Model 21 32" vent rib Trap grades, one of which is in my gun room. I know where the other one is, but the owner wants mine more than I want his. My Cap Grier 21 was ordered for him after he participated in a world record doubles squad about 1938. Apparently, John Olin wanted him to have a backup, just in case. The Model 12 in the picture may have been a loaner, since he was a rifle shooter in the event that year.

I was at Berkeley before you, but never met A. S. Leupold. I re-read his book on California Quail every couple of years.

Did you know Errington?

The part I like about the McQueen movie is that if you watch the clip there are three hubcaps that come flying off in the chase scene. But if you look closely the lead car still has three on it at the end. I guess those classic hubcaps just catch up and hammer themselves back on.