Was just looking on Guns International, clicked on a SxS listing, and saw immediately the torch job on the receiver.

So I read further to see how the seller described this state of affairs and read "CASE COLORS PROFESSIONALLY RESTORED USING A LOW HEAT CHEMICAL PROCESS AND NOT THE INAPPROPRIATE HIGH HEAT BONE CHARCOAL PROCESS, WHICH MAY WEAKEN THE RECEIVER."

Looked them to see who the seller was and it was "the" Ed I remember reading about in several forums this past winter.

Is there any way to keep this scam artist from deceiving people?

He may not be deceiving people at this point.

I don't like, or recommend what he's doing but there are methods to create colors at temperatures that are metallurgically safe, using modest temperatures and chemicals. Oscar Gaddy once described his experiments in this area and I understand that Ithaca used such a process to rejuvenate colors at one point.

If he decides to go public with more details than just his statement, he could become credible in that potential buyers can decide their interest or lack thereof, in an informed manner based on aesthetics.

Is that to say his statement is correct that bone charcoal color case hardening is "inappropriate" as he indicates?

From everything I have ever seen or read the bone charcoal method has well over 100 years of use, performance, acceptance and still is the preference today and the method still used on the better and best guns.

If he were simply to say that this is one alternative method to BC, and also indicate that orginally the firearm had BC color hardening, that would be a different situation.

If the bone charcoal method is not done correctly, he is right it will warp the parts.

The chemical and heat process is and old deal using cold blue from Brownells and a propane torch.

Did he mention that it wears off if you look at it to hard?

Sorry, but Ed, by his caveat, doesn't prove that he isn't doing something "inappropiate" also. A torch can warp the same as an oven can. The only really "appropriate" action is to do nothing.

Pot calling the crucible black? Ed is lively on his feet!

jack

I have had guns restored using the bone charcoal case hardening process. As has been stated many times, it can warp parts. It is not the only case hardening process that was used. Many makers choose to use the cyanide method.

Yes the use of a torch can be a very bad thing. Which by the way appears to be what Ed and friends are using.

There is another approach that has been discussed here in the past. Essentially heating the metal to about 175F to 200F and applying cold blue or other chemicals. Some have reported excellent results with this approach.

Pete

There is another approach that has been discussed here in the past. Essentially heating the metal to about 175F to 200F and applying cold blue or other chemicals. Some have reported excellent results with this approach.

Pete [/quote]

Yes Sir, I too have used a torch to heat metal to just above the temp that you can't hold onto the metal and applied OXPHO cold blue. As I said before it does not wear. In fact the colors are brighter than any BC I've ever seen. The first time I tried it, I thought it was just slicker than sliced bread. To bad it won't wear.

Cover it with Minwax spray semigloss lacquer.

I wish I had thought of that years ago when messing with the stuff, that is a vary good idea. I used it to dress up other wise plain Jane guns to unload at the locale gun shows, in Fairbanks back in the 70's.

Ah, the crowd turns ugly. I predict in one year Ed will be our hero and we will spit on the likes of Turnbull.


How much longer before our site mascot is Rosie O'Donnel?

Who is Rosie O'Donnel?

Care to wager? I'll bet not.

It has been a while that the BC redo crowd has been at it. The results, including the single gun I had done (Turnbull) have been better than pretty good.

Ed Lander's work is uniformly crap, from any angle.

So it goes.
Best,
Ted

Any firearm being re-color cased Should be annealed first. Many of those in the trade don't do this step as it ups the cost. By annealing the parts, the metal/stresses are relaxed slowly. The way John Gillette does it(slow annealing), the parts never seem to move and the newly color cased parts fit back together nicely. Classic Guns has done my work for the last eight years without one warped piece.During this period of time. I have averaged sending John approx. 45-65 pieces a year from which I base my opinion. Guess it depends on who actually does the work. Classic doesn't run a large number of action through at the same time in order to save on heating cost. John only cases a few similar sized frames at a time & watches them carefully. Doug Mann and Glenn Fewless has been to Johns shop and can testify to the care he takes with the work. FWIW, Ken

Ken:
What is John Gillette's contact info? Thanks.
Craig Libhart

Here you go Craig:

CLASSIC GUNS, INC
John Gillette
BEECHER, IL.
708-946-6141
http://www.classicgunsinc.com/

Gunbroker auction #74276603, opinions....

Just trying to add a little spice, lol.

O.K. I will fall for it first and state my opinion. Mind you I am less than a year old to appreciating/knowing CCH so I may fail this test although I think I can recognize good bone charcoal like Turnbull's and very bad chemical/torch/whatever like Ed's.

I find it interesting that different parts/surfaces exhibit different appearances, good chemical torch on some(?), cyanide appearing in other areas, and color case on still others.

So in order I say probably color case, maybe cyanide, and would be very surprised (or amazed)if it were torch.

Did I pass?

Whatever it is it looks nice.

But I like this a whole lot better!!!!!!!!!!!

O.K., after remembering what good bone charcoal color case can look like I am revising my opinion on the gunbroker gun to cyanide.

I think if I were having a gun made for me bone charcoal is the ONLY way to go!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe Ed can run for President to continue the current administration's legacy. Bet he doesn't believe in evolution either.

Does anyone out there think this is preferable from an aesthetic standpoint to bone charcoal color case? Here is the picture of the gun Ed listed with his statement which I referenced in my original post.

I haven't moved in the heady circles that find the time capsule guns and have gotten used to fading, greying CC when I can find some on something I can afford. Worn and faded is, in the pinch of what's available, also a witness to originality. "Well-preserved" at ninety years old has its charms. It's all just a skin condition whether it's surface hardness or incidental and attractive ephemera. I prefer the look of an old bruise to a nasty case of eczema. When it gets to the point of looking like somebody's been zapping the frame with a heliarc, I'd say it looks like sh7t (aesthetics) and is sh7t (metallurgy).

jack

I have no connection with the gentleman but I wonder why people continue to write posts like these? Do you really think people who are about to bid on a web auction gun will check here first to get the green flag? Or does it make you feel superior to write how you are so wise and can't be fooled? If something like this deserves 3 pages of postings I wonder what a really important topic will generate?

Yep I do. It happens quite frequently.As far as I'm concerned this site is "nonpareil" for information on guns of all types.
IMHO If it saves one fellow from being fleeced.....it's worth it.
What's the rub?

Cherry Bomb, some fraction (large or small) of the nearly 8000 members who visit this site ARE "the people who are about to bid on a web auction gun". It may be that the so say all of us consensus gets old when the target of complaint is so easy; the site isn't called Doubleguns For Dummies. However, many of us are also relatively new to the game and appreciate the repetition of bedrock responses dealing with how to buy, shoot, and maintain doubleguns. Tolerating the occasional ego display is a small price to pay for the breadth and depth of information available here. We're all free to take what we need and ignore what we don't.

jack

Kinda like spotting to much bondo on that old muscle car. Some guns make good examples of questionable craftmanship. Anyway, three pages of this might be better than 50 pages of how to sand a stock. It'll all be gone soon...like a fart.

I am certainly no expert only being new to SxS and case coloring for less than a year, but I first heard about torch jobs and infamous Ed from these posts, although the first example of his work was no where near as obvious as this latest one. And much of what I know now is from reading all these posts, even on repeated topics, and reading several good books on these topics, many that were recommended from these pages. I didn't know who Doug Turnbull even was, now know that his shop is less than 1 1/2 hours drive from me, so a buddy and I are going to get a tour of his operation in July as soon as we get a day we can both do it.

Even tough the RBL issue has been beat to death perhaps, I know I would not mind seeing a new post to see some more of the latest guns he's delivered, and hear members current thoughts on the gun, him and the operation.

Sometimes when the wife is just not in the best of moods I just like to go here, read, unwind, and perhaps add to a topic. I know that I never visit here without picking up one bit of useful advice or a new opinion to ponder.

I wish I had found this forum before I bought my first side by side, not that I am not happy with it, but probably would have bought a lower priced and better handling gun from reading all the opinions.

I don't think that there are many members here who consider themselves "the" expert, but I value what is said by all whether I agree with them or not.

Anyone who hasn't done so should take a look at San Diego Fred's post. And then eightbore's. Collectors are very interested in the legacy of the original for want of a better term. There is a dilution of that legacy by even the more reputable restoration efforts so it's understandable why tinkers, fools, and mercenaries who "know better" aren't encouraged. Three major points have been made again and again in the many discussions of case color restoration here. 1) Traditional case hardening processes produce a surface appearance incidental to the rationale for hardening. 2)Supposedly accurate and correct replicaton of those processes at the present day are seen to produce distortion, subsequent problems of fit, and possibly changes to the molecular structure in frames rehardened. 3)The Ithaca/Perazzi heat/chemical "imitation" as well as Dr. Gaddy's method are frequently alluded to but not spelled out in specifics.

Now about that third "attractive and harmless" alternative. Is somebody or some interest suppressing it? Does it really produce results worth the trouble? Faced with a shiny expanse of Chromox, I've dug out the Oxpho-blue and the hair dryer. A few grey puddles are an improvement in my opinion but I'd like something a bit more colorful (authenticity aside) which doesn't involve the nominal bargains at Ohio Color Case, the very dear work of Mr. Turnbull, or the frame-frying heat-colors of the torchies.

jack

Read through the older posts and see for yourself the artists that visit this site, Mr Moody, Mr.crosschisels, Mr Turnbull, I know I left out a few, sorry, but to see their work and what they can do and compare same to this guy well you have learned alot. What alot of us have learned is.....whose word is good and whose word isn't.
All the best