So much talk about single shots lately I bought me an Iver Johnson .44 smooth bore from my buddy in jOe'ja of all places.

Nice looking gun. Makes me want to sit in a lawn chair with a Dr. Pepper and a pipe and shoot garden varmints.


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Wish Spring would hurry up and get here.

Gotta believe you’d look better than jOe doing it.



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Get off my lawn.

https://youtu.be/idJPmAKcDQw

It is a nice looking gun in great shape. What is a .44 smooth bore designed to hunt for and is it a rifle or pistol round?

Be nice mr.Ted

I'm not sure....hope to get some help here.

Ya'll start playing nice now! (That's the best I can do. I am not even from south Jersey!)

Looks long barreled. I’m guessing a full choke? I wonder what shells a .44 shotgun would be amenable to shoot/reload for?? 44 special brass or .44 magnum brass loaded with shot? It’s a bigger bore than a .410 shotgun, I guess. Cool gun if one can figure how to reload for it. Bragging rights to kill a turkey with! Looks like a toughie to get a scope on though for those guys that need one. But, I bet jOe doesent need a scope on a shotgun for turkey, or anything else. What shot size for that gun? #4, 5, 6 lead vs TSS small shot (#9, 10, 11) for turkey???

Now, don't start with the TSS stuff. Start off nice and throw in a little dig?

My only Single Barrel.
1922 Winchester Model 20


.410 Bore, Full

http://www.fourten.org.uk/mwpre410.html

I'll trade you Bob ?

Nice info Ed...how much is one of these worth ?

You gonna trade Bobby his .410 for your .44, or you gonna trade catering services for bourbon?

Anyway, should you decide to hang on to it and play with it for awhile, here's some info to get it up and running:

http://www.fourten.org.uk/mwpre410.html

Good chance it is a .44XL, but it might be a good idea to make a chamber cast with some Cerrosafe to be sure. It looks to be in great shape.

Ted, your "Get off my lawn" tag line made me laugh. It reminded me of a guy in my Dad's neighborhood when I was growing up. He couldn't stand to see kids having fun, and called the cops on us about twice a week. He actually called the cops on us once for throwing apples on a stick! Even the cops thought he was messed up, and they begged us to stay away from his house because he bothered them so much. I often think of him when old colonel posts for some reason.

jOe: dont really know...best guess is three to five hundred...

had one of these years ago...ritz crackers make great targets...

Every neighborhood had one of those when we were kids, Keith.

Best,
Ted

I was thinking with some TSs #12 shot it ought to be good for turkeys ?

The .44XL was what I was thinking also.

Threads (with pictures! ) about making .44XL paper patched shotshells
https://www.shootersforum.com/blackpowde...s-anderson.html
https://www.shootersforum.com/blackpowde...44-xl-shot.html

Infro courtesy of PeteM
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=20218

In the 1908 Sear's catalog, quite possibly other years as well, they listed a "Little Ladies" single shot shotgun. This was available chambered for either the .44XL or for a .40-85 Win case. This case was in all likelihood the same as the .40-85 Ballard. This was, of course, a rimmed case having a head diameter of 0.480" & a length of about 2 15/16". (Almost a 3" .410) Sears only supplied these as primed empties & had to be loaded. A load was given which consisted of an appropriate charge of black powder with ½ oz of shot.

I had an old British SXS hammer gun that I believe was originally proofed as a .44, it also had 2-3/4” chambers. I shot .410's through it and it worked just fine. The only thing was the .410 casing’s would swell slightly and wouldn’t fit in a .410 Nitro Special after they’d been fired in the old hammer gun.
Steve

Researcher had an excellent thread on Shotgunworld about the evolution of 44XL, .44-40, and .410 shotshells, but the images were lost in the Photobucket fiasco

The 44XL and 28g "Small Double" were first listed in the 1910 H. & D. Folsom catalog. Catalog No. 13 1916 listed the gun in .410.



To be clear, 44XL shotshells could be used in the (new) .410/12mm chambered guns, but not v.v.

Folsom catalog No. 18 c. 1921 listed the "Midget Field Model" for 44 XL or .410 - "The one gun takes both sizes."



Here's a thread about using resized .44-40 brass
http://jefenry.com/main/The44-Shot.php

I have one of those 28 gauge American Gun Company hammer doubles, but the stock is broken. I have wanted to see if I could repair it or else make a new one, but haven't done it yet. I weighed all the parts of this one & it went to right at 5 lbs. That's what a 28 gauge should weigh if it's going to weigh 6 lbs or + it would be better as a 20.

Shooting a 5 lb gun isn’t tough. Shooting a 5 lb gun exceptionally well, is tough.

Best,
Ted

Ted;
There are of course a lot of different ways of looking at this. I have done a good bit of "Good" shooting with guns weighing from around 6 lb up through 7½ lbs. They were all however in 20, 16 & 12 gauges. My personal preference is "IF" I cannot shoot well with a gun lighter than 6 lbs I have no use for anything smaller than a 20. To me personally, the "ONLY" advantage of a smaller gauge is lightweight. Why would I want to pay a premium for the gun & then $12.00-$15.00 a box for shells, not quite the equal of what I can buy for around $5.50 a box, With all the advantages favoring the larger gauge?

Miller,
I’m cut from the same cloth. It is hard for me to pick up a box of either 28 or .410 ammunition, and reach for my wallet, when there is 12 and 20 gauge ammunition right next to it, for less money.
I own a .410, and a 28. Shoot either, very little. But, that 12 gauge single shot Companion 12 gauge, at about 5 lbs and small change, is a demanding little minx as well.

Best,
Ted

I've asked myself that question for years. The only answers that make any sense to me are 1) Challenging myself by using a gun that will make taking game or targets tougher. Or 2) Owning and using a gun that is more likely to appreciate in value over time.

Of course, If I put enough shells through it that cost nearly 3 times as much as the next larger gauge, I will quickly eat up any appreciation in value. I don't know if components to load for 28 gauge are much more expensive, but if I ever find the right gun at the right price, I have a Bair reloading press set up for 28 gauge, and a 28 gauge die set for a Mec. I don't know if jOe's new/old .44 shot gun has any real collector value, but I think it would be interesting and fun to load and shoot.

It makes economic sense to reload .410, 28 and 16, especially if one shoots a lot or makes specialty loads and is into loading for the long haul. For 12 and 20 unless one is making a specialty load such as low pressure or lighter payloads, it's not. Gil

Fact: All 5 lb. guns, or even sub 5 lb. guns, do not handle the same. I have a 4lb. 14 oz. 28" barreled S X S that Rocketman spun for me on his MOI turntable. As he did so I commented that it surprised me that I shot it well, since I'm used to shooting much heavier guns. He commented that it was because it had almost the same numbers as a 12 ga. English game gun. It's where the weight is located on the gun that matters to handling, much more so than just the total weight.

Fact: Anyone who pays $12 a $15 a box for .410" shells is just lazy. I never pay over $8 for good 1/2 oz. factory loads, by the flat. They pattern great out of my guns. Beyond that, you can reload .410s so cheaply it is ridiculous. I do pay more for premium 3/4 oz. loads, while I am working up a good reload. But soon I will be loading .410 hunting loads, with nickel plated shot, for less than you can buy a cheap box of chilled shot 12s.

Fact: If your life is ruled by practicality you will probably never enjoy a .410. You should probably stick with $289 12 ga. pump guns. But, if you like a challenge, if you like making it a little tougher on yourself to take a limit, or run a straight at skeet, you just might find the little guns grow on you.

Fact: You don't have to pay a premium for a good .410 or 28 doublegun. I never have, and I've got 6 of them right now.

Different strokes for different folks.

SRH

Sort of.

If you reload, it costs essentially the same to shoot 12,20, or .410.

The current average economics assuming you have a gun club membership and can buy components off the vendor truck, or you attend shoots and can avoid 'retail':

Shot is a dime an ounce.
Primers are 3 cents.
Wads are 2 cents.
Powder is 4 to 5 cents a 'bang'.

This is the same whatever gauge you load.

.410 shells are usually purchased in factory loads since you don't find them laying around free and if you buy them 'once fired' they cost 20 cents anyway.

.410 hulls cost roughly a nickel a cycle, exactly the same as the money saved by using only half an ounce of shot. It's a wash.

12 gauge shells are free for the picking up. 20 gauge shells sometimes can be found for free, if you can't find any at the ranges, Gun Club shells last nearly forever, certainly long enough to get the cost down to a penny per cycle.

When figuring total cost, I also include a penny per load for equipment.

I figure $5 a box total at current prices. I can certainly buy promo loads for near that, and I do burn quite a few of those.

But, for 410 and for stuff I can't buy at any price, I load.

Right, but ........ I can pick up all the .410 shells I can stand to reload for free. And a very gracious donor once sent me several hundred once fired 3" cases. 🙂

Seriously, I've never had to buy any .410 hulls except for 100 Cheddites to use to work up a 3/4 oz. "super load".

Even if you did end up at $5 a box, that's a long way from $12 - $15.

What is so hard for me to understand, and this is NOT directed at any one person, is why it's okay, and even recommended by many on this forum, that we should pay high prices for low pressure, over the counter, 2 1/2" shells to use in a vintage damascus gun, but cry "Wolf!" about someone paying a couple dollars a box more for .410s, if that's what brings them enjoyment.

SRH

Well I thought I had it coming now my north jOe'ja buddy says he wants to keep it to shoot toad frOgs with...

I'm still tying to figure out how you guys cook them.

Stan, you must shoot at higher class places than I do.

Back in the days when I could only afford about 50 targets a week, I used to plow through the snowdrifts on Monday for loadable AA 12 gauge hulls.

I ran them through the washing machine to wash the tobacco juice off them, at least until that time the spin cycle centrifuged out a bunch of primers and they ended up in the pump.

Wife was not amused.

Stan,
I don’t have a dog in this fight, BUT, an excellent, English gunsmith once told me he would be a far poorer man were it not for American shooters with English double guns, and reloaders. He said a good deal of his work was directly linked to that. My take, because I didn’t ask him to elaborate, was that the English guns had seen their best days by the time they got here, and the reloaded ammunition was mostly hotter than the guns should have seen in their prime.

I have heard it proclaimed by many guys how they would never make a mistake while reloading, and their ammunition is always perfect. And, I have seen posts with screwed up guns with the finger pointed at the reloaded ammunition.

I have heard of bad factory ammunition, but, have never had the pleasure, so to speak.

If and when I become a reloader, I’d tend to use the stuff in my repeaters, and use boutique ammunition in the guns I’d really rather not have an expensive mistake in.

I get it if someone doesn’t feel the same.

Best,
Ted

I've got so many AA .410 hulls I don't even pick them up now, SJ. Lots of guys shoot .410s down at my club, down here. Didn't know it wasn't like that everywhere.

Another thought, if you pay $8 a box for shells, and the leftover hulls are worth $.20/ea., how much has that box really cost you? Answer, $3.

SRH

Me too, Ted. No argument from me on that.

All my best, SRH

A personal decision, Ted. I respect that.

I recently had to decide if I was capable of safely loading for the M1 Garand rifle.

That's a different platform than I'm experienced with, and there are safety concerns that simply must be addressed lest one end up having a bad day.

In the end, I obtained the correct dies, primers, and gauges to assemble the equal of factory ammunition safety wise with the added benefit of a tad less recoil. My cartridges are better for the rifle than anything available commercially.

The key is to realize that people are fallible and anyone who claims to have never made a reloading mistake is simply a liar.

I hope I'm able to identify the age at which I should no longer load. I've seen quite a few older guys who just can't do it anymore yet they persist. The endless parade of duds gets annoying and we always wonder when the extra powder charge will show itself...

Too bad you don’t live down the street. I could save you the trouble. I have a stack of the Austrian military 30-06, old, but perfect for the Garand . A little bit lower velocity than typical, is what I’ve been told. I don’t even own a 30-06.
I think it is the stuff sold by Century.

Best,
Ted

Ted, your local CMP affiliated club could probably put that to good use should you ever decide to donate it to their youth program.

I didn't have a '06 either until about a year ago.

One time, I did have a Rem 700 in that caliber until I traded it for an 1100 Skeet 'B'.

The Garand adventure has ended up as a 3 rifle project, one of which now wears an optic. Fascinating rifle in all respects.

There is also a Sharps replica on order, so my shotgunning time will be somewhat reduced in the future.

I should have never have visited the 500 yard steel gong range...

SJ, I'm afraid I may have started down a similar road. I bought a Ruger Precision in 6.5 Creedmoor. A friend builds long range rifles and last year shot a 1.6", 1000 yard group, at a match in MT, or WY, with that caliber. It has got me interested in a whole 'nuther realm of sport shooting. I lease some farmland from a friend who has agreed to let me build a berm at one end of his property to shoot at 1000+ yards.

SRH

We're doomed...

SRH

Yep...before you know it people will be posing with kids guns and toads.