Woke up this morning to find an interesting video in my YouTube feed that's relatively new (published two weeks ago) from a young (or at least youngish) Brit about the decline of the side-by-side. I don't know him from Adam but he seems to be involved in the gun trade and shooting sports and, while he's a fan of the side-by-side, he's got bad news for those who share his fondness.

He concludes they're losing out in a trend that's probably irreversible. He explains the reasons why and also touches on the subject of valuations, which comes up for discussion here, too, now and then.

One question I have after watching the video: If the value of side-by-sides in the UK has dropped to the extent he says it has (and he should know) then why do the prices not seem to reflect that at the U.S. dealer websites I visit? (I'm thinking of 2 that either specialize in Brit guns or always seem to have a lot of them.)

Anyhow, the video is pretty short (under 7 minutes) and might be of interest to some folks here. I'd be interested in reading the reactions here of those who do watch it if anyone cares to react.

Video is here: https://bit.ly/2CGOyTv

This topic comes up regularly here on the board and among my clients as well. The real change is the lack of interest in the old guns from the younger hunters, or simply declining demand. I buy in the UK and sell here and can tell you overhead is brutal. My costs are in the multiple thousands of dollars per shipment. Double shotguns move slow here, combine that with the lag time on permits both here and in the UK and pretty soon you have your money tied up for quite a bit of time. Then factor in the consignment portion of your favorite dealer's inventory. I set the prices on the guns I own, I have to work with the seller to establish the price on his goods. Many of these guys bought at the peak of the market and are trying to not take a loss. Most are in for a surprise. I have been selling quite a few guns lately but very few SxS shotguns. The good news is many of my clients are picking up some great buys. That is my take.
Steve

I cannot believe the child in that video used the phrase: "When I was a kid." I think he might have been right though...Geo

Heh heh. I thought the same thing. Actually, he reminds me just a little bit of Prince Harry. Not a lot, but just a little.

My skin started crawling when the kid mentioned semi-autos. I believe I would have fainted if he’d have said anything about pump guns.


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Ithaca 37

An excellent video and a fine young man. He was articulate, knew his subject, sympathetic and more than that, obviously is enthusiastic about gun sports. I like the wall cabinets behind him which seem to be built from gun shipping boxes. And, I don't think you can dispute what he says anymore than you can dispute that electric cars, with a simple machine made engine, really are here to stay. There are a lot of semi-automatics at my clay range (a public range), and my own son, bless his soul, prefers the pointing characteristics of my old 1970's Remington 870 that I gave him a few years ago of all things.

For myself, though, there is a beauty in my few SxS's that I won't give up. I didn't spend a fortune for them - they aren't retirement or collection pieces. I just plain like them, like to shoot them and like the questions asked about them. I just wish I knew where are the £3-4,000 guns being sold for $40.

As a public service, perhaps our friends across the pond can send us those $3-4K doubles for $60 apiece and we can send them back $20 per gun for their troubles and to remove these inaccurate guns from their grasps. Gil

Likewise on all points. I don't know if I'm considered young or old, at 52, but regardless I love them above all other firearms and that's set for the remainder of my years I think. If I have anyone to pass guns down to, what makes them special will also be passed down.

I've noticed it at a lot of the gun shows I go to that the interest in doubles is declining, i have personally gotten some really good deals in the last year or so, i've picked up quite a few guns in the $200 to $600 range that you couldn't have touched 10 or 15 years ago for those prices, i brought a gun to cabelas the other day to see what they would give me for it, a 12g belgian with ivory beads and ejectors,not perfect but a great solid shooter, the guy in the gun library told me they weren't buying side by sides because the market is getting soft and they have been selling what they have at a loss a lot of the time....

For me the sxs's I own represent memories of ownership, as well as the hunts and birds taken. The occasional high scores at sxs meets adds to that.
While holding and looking at them I can reminisce all of it, and you can't buy that. They represent a grace and beauty not often available today.
Karl

My long range plan is to sell all my SXS guns and keep just two O/Us... 12 and 20 Berettas. Sold three sxs guns in the last few months.

People say I shoot my O/Us better anyway.

Wanna buy a Francotte sxs 12 anybody?

The video makes some good points. Like Gil, I'm looking for the guns to be bought at 10% of their value. Here's another view of the auction state in the UK UK Auctions .

Ken

The popularity of O/U against SxS is simply a matter of promotion by the shooting press . I would like to correct the Novice gun salesman. You point a shotgun at your clay /bird , you DO NOT aim.
Side by sides can shoot standard proof steel cartridges exactly the same as a standard proof O/U .
The gunshops here in England do not value SxS highly because there is very little demand to buy . Write a few articles such as read in the superb publication DGJ and you could then watch the value of SxS's increase . A well made H&H , Purdey or Boss etc., still commands good money . In fact many post WW11 Birmingham SxS will still cost the inflation increased price that they were new 70 years ago . A BSA boxlock retailed for about $5 in 1953 but a good condition ( not new obviously ) it would cost you $3,000 possibly over here today.

I’ll give you a hundred...


_____________________
...Canadian

I belong to a couple of hunting sights and I'm pretty much considered and eccentric old fart that I'd even consider a sxs a good waterfowl shotgun let alone for use on predators, even more so for thinking two triggers are better than one. O/U are somewhat accepted I think because of there proliferation on the trap and skeet fields, but have one with two triggers and it is a pariah.

I love them and they work for me, but I'm old (62 licensed hunting seasons). I have time to wait for the right shot, experience to bring birds in closer and don't consider success by a full limit. A great day is a couple ducks for dinner and a called coyote or two during the day. I always have tomorrow. Even when I was working I'd take weeks at a time during hunting season for trips rarely having to rush out on the weekend and compete with the masses or get myself into places the average hunter couldn't get to with his 16ft outboard duck boat and huge spread of decoys, a small spread in a little backwater that I had to get out and pull the canoe or skiff into produced birds.

The birds look a little rumpled, they traveled a mile or so in a backpack with a halfdozen decoys.



An ounce of NP BB's will ruin a little Quail munchers day, this one happens to have a rifle barrel too incase he decides to take in the view a ways out.

I visited Portland OR over Christmas. Was astonished to see a very fat wild cayote walking down the street with an arrogant swagger and a collar. Turns out Portlandia is humane; they put radio collars on the cayotes in the city limits. That doesn't keep them from breeding like rabbits and hunting down domestic cats.

Munching down domestic cats is a very welcome service I would think. That "quail muncher" probably saved more quail lives that it took, when it was munching on, or at least scarring the bejesus out of, countless other mammals that are better quail munchers than he.

Gun Library--Our area Cabela's has quite a few overpriced -IMO anyway_ side-by-sides-- They have a nice looking, albiet heavy Parker DHE- 12- 28" Titanic barrels, beavertail forarm, PG, skeleton buttplate, DT, EJ, and on the tag is noted "Refinished By DelGrego.

I asked the "Librarian" if they had a signed letter on letterhead from Del Grego to document this- He said- "No, but the man they bought it from told them it was a DelGrego re-do". Nice gun, NO. 2 frame, a tad heavy for a field gun. but worth $6500?? RWTF

The situation is even worse for side-by-side flintlock and percussion shotguns. They have been obsolete for an even longer period of time, and replaced by more efficient cartridge firing guns. That's why you can't even give them away.

If the demand for solid wood and steel guns finished by expensive hand labor is declining, that just indicates poor taste and bad judgement to me. I like them even better when they have those dangerous Damascus barrels that would cost as much as a small car to duplicate today.

BrentD tells us once again that coyotes are actually good for wild bird populations. Here's a few pics of coyotes saving game birds from death by lead poisoning. Has anyone considered that game bird populations have fallen dramatically ever since nutty ecologists like BrentD started managing the resource?:

Yeah, I wish.
O.M

keith, it may not be poor taste or bad judgement in many cases. What to do when we lose interest in using and looking at them? I sold a mint circa 1800 Brown Bess about 25 years ago to a New England antique dealer for $US2200 and bought a 686. It seemed practical to me. Possessions are sometimes a burden. Declining interest may have a lot to do with reloading for our great, old American classics.

one would think it began when the superposed hit the market, along with the model 32 Remington. seems to me, ever since...people like today chasing gizmos, went for the latest gizmo, (stacked bbls) and the old sbs began to lose favor?

If you had sold a collectible 1969 Camaro when the muscle car market declined in order to finance the purchase of a Beretta 686, you might have taken a bath. Conversely, if you had sold the same 1969 Camaro when muscle cars were at their peak, you would have considered yourself an astute collector with good sense.

When we decide to acquire or collect material objects, there is always the risk that the tastes of the market will change for the better or worse. I think the ability to buy beautiful hand-finished labor intensive high quality shotguns at bargain basement prices is going to be a moment in history that many gun owners will regret not getting into. I've been wrong about other investments, but I could never enjoy shooting or hunting with a stock certificate.

Liberals like you may not wish to admit it, but the demand for high capacity semi-auto rifles and handguns is largely driven by the perception that they might become unattainable because of the efforts of anti-gun Democrats. Nancy Pelosi was promising new anti-gun laws before she was even sworn in as House Speaker. Kalifornia Liberal Left Democrat Rep. Eric Swalwell has introduced legislation to spend $15 BILLION to confiscate semi-auto rifles from law abiding U.S. citizens. He even hinted that the U.S. military could be used to enforce his semi-auto ban. Democrats refuse to spend $5 Billion to secure our southern border from a 40 year invasion by upwards of 30 million illegals, but he is willing to spend three times as much to violate our 2nd Amendment.

Democrat Threat to use U.S. Military to confiscate guns

Whatever....no one uses fountain pens anymore either.

There are over 2,400 SXS shotguns on Gunbroker right now. I count only 64 have bids and over half of those are just fishing.

I'm waiting to see how the high end double gun dealers fare with the "slump" in the market for some of those great guns: Parker, L.C. Smith, A.H.Fox, Win M21 and others-- I've been getting over the Winter "Cabin Fever" syndrome by watching some of the Dave Carrie shooting videos on U-Tube. Almost all the "guns" are using "stacked barrel double guns"-- including my favorite shooter, George Digweed.

I'm about as close to owning or even shooting a Boss or Woodward or a Holland & Holland "game gun" as I am to being the next Pope, but I am of the opinion that many of those "marque" shotguns were made to fit the original purchaser- especially in terms of "Cast", either cast on, or cast off. restocking any of those fine handmade guns could be a "deep pockets" scenario.

Looked to me that Digweed shoots a Perazzi O/U- what a shot on long range pigeons, crows, pheasant-- I am guessing he uses that same O/U for competition clays as well.

“Decline of the Side-by-Side”

This is by no means breaking news. I’m 47 and the SxS’s where gone (as the norm) before I was born. Only a few diehard gun enthusiast use them in the area that I live in. I’m one of the few.

There is also a decline in guns that are well made of all types.

What disappoints me the most is that most people my age and younger have no pride in the guns that they shoot. It’s a tool only.

Actually, some of us, often older, still do, for the same reasons that some shoot sxs shotguns.

In addition, there is a bit of fountain pen revival among the younger generation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/style/fountain-pens.html

Right now on E bay, there are 156,788 listings for Beanie Babies. There are no bids for the vast majority of them, but 15-20 years ago, toy collectors were clamoring for these mass produced little Chinese made items. The market for worthless cardboard mass produced baseball cards is even worse. Hummel figurines anyone...???

Any company in China could replicate these, or a lot of other things that collectors demanded. But no one will be able to produce quality doubleguns for the kind of prices we are able to buy them. The time to buy is when there is panic in a market, and blood in the streets. We might not be seeing the bottom of double gun prices quite yet, but it will come and go soon enough. Just look at the current prices for WWII surplus military crap that languished for a song in bargain racks and barrels in every gun shop and hardware store when you were kids. Go buy me a $25.00 Krag or 95 Mauser today. What are the total production numbers on those compared to L.C. Smith, Parker, or Lefever shotguns?

The high grade guns new and vintage will always command top prices...the lower grade vintage guns will always be stuck in a rut.

Most people see a SxS and dollar signs start flashing...prime example are the people that come on here thinking they've found the crown jewels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_F._McManus

The recurring elements section is most relevant

Would you rather hunt with an interesting fellow that thinks guns are just tools or a tool that thinks his gun is interesting?


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Ernest Hemingway with a Model 12
or
Col. Lonny Rhodes with a Purdey
(I know the Col. personally. He’s actually a nice guy)

Hemingway had other guns.

How ‘bout you?

Best,
Ted


_________________________________________
You went from Lance to Larry Brown in pretty short order.

I'm just a Kentucky Colonel. Larry's the real deal.


_____________________________
Buckin' for PFC Lonny Rhodes

I just picked up a very nice and clean 11 gauge english percussion sxs last week for $300.
34" barrels, 9 1 /4 pound well balanced beauty that fits like it was made for me.

I'll choose Don Ernesto-- His first shotgun, as an adult, was his M12- field grade 12- 30" full choke with solid rib. You might enjoy the books "Hemingway's Guns" by Silvio Calabi, Roger Sanger and Steven Helsey- 2 editions, the second revises the guns Ernest and Mary had in Cuba.

Hemingway started hunting in Sun Valley, ID in Sept 1939- fell in love with the whole area, in 1940 he met actor Gary Cooper, and their lifelong friendship began.

Unlike his father, Dr. Clarence E. Hemingway, Ernest was afflicted with poor eyesight, that factor kept him out of the US Army in WW1- so he served with the Red Cross in Italy, as an ambulance driver.

Somehow, he overcame the vision problems, and was a top rated shot at live pigeon shoots- He won a Browning Superposed 12 ga. in the 1930's-- and used that and his M12 for a variety of hunting and sport shooting. I am sure the gentleman who has the taste (and deep pockets) to own and shoot a Purdey gun would also be a fine field companion.

In the book "The Idaho Hemingway" Tillie Arnold describes Hemingway and being a kind and gentle man, who never drank until the hunt was over, and tried to give others in the group chances at the best shots on pheasants, ducks, rabbits, whatever.

Hemingway's youngest son Gregory won several live bird matches in Cuba, using a .410 L.C. Smith, competing against grown men with 12 gauges- apparently, the acorn didn't fall too far from the tree with his 3 boys, all were keen game shots-

FWIW-- Of all my M12's- my "pet" is a 1937 mfg. Tournament grade, 12 gauge- 30" full, solid rib, red factory solid pad-- Whenever I handle it, I think of Hemingway. RWTF

That is just flat out biased and wrong. The O/U is the superior design over the S x S, all else being equal, for higher percentage hits on all types of presentations. That is exactly the reason there are no top elite competitive shooters in FITASC, sporting clays, skeet and trap that are using S x S guns. To say it is all a ploy by the shooting press is to deny the sunrise.

I shoot S x S guns almost exclusively when hunting. I compete with them in S x S specialty events and shoots. Why?........... because I love shooting them. But, when the money is on the line I will be shooting an O/U, because I, and thousands of other open-minded people, know that I can kill a few more birds out of 100 with it. I cannot imagine a reasonable, level headed, unbiased person giving S x Ss and O/Us both a fair, and equal, shakeout and determining the S x S is the equal for percentage shooting. I gave a 32" well balanced and well fitted S x S a fair run in sporting clays competitions and found it lacking. Yet, I still prefer them for hunting.

We have gone through this dozens of times over the years on this board, and there always seems to be someone who is so biased as to deny the obvious. I don't get it. Why can't people enjoy what they enjoy without belittling other's gun buying decisions? When you claim that the popularity of O/Us over S x Ss is the result of the shooting press you are insulting tens of thousands of shooters who have, through years of trial and error, come to their decision. You can continue to grope around in the darkness, salopian, but the sun has indeed risen. Open your eyes.

SRH

Amen...pass the plate.

I would rather hunt with an interesting fellow that likes his gun.

Different strokes for different folks.

Hunting for me 1/3 about hunting, 1/3 about spending time with friends and 1/3 about using one of my guns.

If I had to hunt with someone else's gun it just wouldn't appeal to me.

I just like sxs because the shallow gape works better for me in duck boats and while laying in shallow blinds, plus they make it easier for me to look down the bores for possible obstructions. They also seem a bit easier to swing laterally when hunting in emergent vegetation.

Stan’s comments four posts above are about as dead on as you’ll find. I shoot SXS guns exclusively at everything but I also don’t shoot competitively. I just enjoy them and have no ego that needs currying. The O/U wins on every point except, with a very few exceptions, it can never have the soul a hand crafted double has. Heck, if I’m hunting four legged game I’ve got a flintlock rifle in my hands and love every minute of it though any centerfire rifle ever made runs circles around it. There is so much more to life than having to get more than the other feller.

I hunt a couple times a year with my late Fathers guns, a Beretta O/U, the same gun he started me hunting with, and the A5 12 he bought in 1952, when he made Sargent in the USMC. I also have a 20 gauge double that a late friend made sure I ended up with. The passing of these two great men left a large empty spot in my world.
I enjoy hunting with their guns.

Best,
Ted

Yes, I can relate to that. It’s not about the money, it’s about hunting with a gun your proud of.

Most of the guns made today are so cheesy its hard to be proud of them. A cheep gun from 80 years ago had more craftmanship put into it than the $1000 plastic, bead blasted guns of today.

Stan is exactly right that the O/U is the ruler of the day in shooting games. I have O/U guns and semi autos and the vast majority of them just sit and gather dust. I shoot the guns I shoot because I want to shoot them not because of any other reason. I can afford any gun that I want. I have learned it is the shooter, not the ammo, or the gun which causes all my misses. I like archaic guns for lack of a better term.

I killed several ducks this year with a 190 year old percussion smallbore double. I shot multiple limits of Dove with a Winchester 42, a Crescent .410, a Ruger 28, a Ithaca 37 in 28 and a collection of other pump guns and side by sides. Everything could have been killed with a Benelli and a couple flats of store bought ammo. But where in the heck would there be any fun in that? I shoot very few clay targets these days but when I do I use a pump or side by side. Most of my archaic guns are used in the field. So the Benellis, 1100, 11-87, K80's, 3200's of my world sit in the gun room and the others get a chance to go hunting.

I have more guns, in my gun room, than I will ever get a chance to take hunting and I still am buying more. I just bought a Union Firearms 20 gauge pump gun and have finished getting it ready for use. If I am alive this September, it will get used on Dove. And I bet that I will be the first person to take a limit of Dove with that gun.

My three sons are going to come home for a Dove shoot in September and we are all going to be using Winchester 42's to shoot Dove. I'll have one for each of them to borrow and shoot. I want them to understand it is not the bag that counts but the memories that do. And what they don't know is that I am going to give each of them the 42 they will be using that day, to take home.

I didn't have a chance to watch the video, but the 'kid' probably has his head in the sand. There's a better than fair chance that all guns are going the way of the dinosaur in the UK. Who really cares if folks have different tastes in guns, as long as it's in the good ole US of A.

The younger guy on youtube is very involved in the English gun trade and knows his stuff on guns...as his other videos will attest.

John Browning saw it back in the 1920s when he started work on his Superposed...I'm sure Browning could have designed a SxS with much less effort.

The stack barrel reins supreme for a reason.

Stan,
Thank you for your comments.
This is after all a forum.
Each to his own.
I doubt there is any medical or scientific reason for one type to be better than the other .
So we can all just shoot what we prefer .

Another strange comment .......



SRH

I'm sure we agree that we are blessed to be able to make such choices, and also be able to express our opinions. Freedom is a good thing.

SRH

I think a SxS may point better for a very quick shot in a heavily wooded and dense background, as compared to a scattergun with a single sighting plane?? I have no scientific evidence to base this statement, only my own experience and opinion.

That is a possibility, buzz. I can discern no difference in how quickly I can "settle the bead" on a flushing quail, or on a low house 7 bird, with a S x S or an O/U. There may be a situation or two where the S x S shines brighter than the O/U. The late great pigeon shooter, Billy Perdue, favored S x Ss for flyers. I read an interview in which he stated that the reason he believed S x Ss were superior in flyers is that it is mostly a game of establishing lead on a rising bird. He believed the wider "appearance" of the barrels lent itself to establishing that vertical lead faster, and speed is so important in trap pigeon shooting.

SRH

What decline?

When my dad took me waterfowl (mostly) and upland hunting in the sixties, I never saw anyone use a SxS.

When I hunted through the 70s, 80s and 90s across Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and in north South Dakota, I never saw a SxS being used.

It was only when I “discovered” SxS myself that I saw one used in the field. And it has been the internet putting me in contact with like minded hunters that has exposed me to others who like to hunt with SxS.

To most hunters I ever meet SxS were the guns that our grandfathers used. For waterfowl on the Canadian prairies, pumps reigned supreme for decades, only recently supplanted by semi-autos.

So from my perspective, I don’t know how it could possibly decline any more than it already did, from the 1920’s through the 1950’s.

I just like being able to buy incredibly well crafted guns for a fraction of what they would cost new today. Even after I get people like Chris Dawe and CJO to address the toll many years of neglect have taken.
.
Not that I do a lot of it, but it’s the same experience at trap and skeet clubs. I’m the ONLY person with a SxS. Every time. Unless it’s a pre-arranged gathering of SxS enthusiasts.

Despite the fact that I didn't understand a word that cute little guy said on his video, I will watch more of his You Tube series because I just can't get enough of his hair. It's amazing how little the young people today can't quite understand political or economic issues. However, he has made me think seriously about dragging my Purdey hammer pigeon gun off to the pawnbrokers. Maybe I can sell it to a member of our pigeon club, most of whom already use side by sides in money shoots. I think maybe they could use a backup gun in case, as the young man says, they break a firing pin.

I think I could gather that jOe. Moreso, I was wonder if he ever shot tin cans with a single shot .22. I think cback has a point, not many of us are likely to start off with a London Best .410, but may have gotten there by starting off with an H&R Topper. I'd bet there are a handful of kids today that will arrive at SxS's who're shooting synthetic stocked semiauto's now.

I saw some stat that noted there are under four legally owned guns per hundred UK citizens and in the US there are a bit over a hundred per hundred citizens. There's a bunch of comment here about bringing classic British guns to the US, I wonder if any significant amount are headed back home. I wonder if Brits come here to buy bargain black guns at auction for their ever growing sport shooting market? Only thoughts about a perceived cultural difference.

Of course, British companies are looking to repatriate worthy guns to the home market. Certainly Holt's has reps in Canada actively seeking consignments.

I've been the only guy shooting a sxs, with the exception of my grandfather, since 1972. Lots of folks said they had one at home but apparently no one considered using one. It wasn't until the Vintagers started their events that I met others shooting a sxs. I do wish all those british guns that aren't even worth a little gunsmithing would make it over here. I love a project and I really like british guns.

Joe- FWIW-- the late gun 'genius" inventor, John M. Browning, was indeed, a most prescient man- in his era he foresaw the changes in hunting trends in America- The "Market hunters" loved his A-5 shotgun and its clones (Remington, Savage) and some still favored the Win M97 he developed.

So, possibly with those thoughts in mind, he developed the fabled Superposed O/U-- If you have access to a copy of Silvio's "Hemingway's Guns" you can read more of the history of that shotgun.

Hemingway used a "smorgasbord" of scatter guns in his life- Model 12's, a few Browning A-5's (16 gauge) the Superposed he won in a live bird shoot, a Scott 12 bore live bird gun he bought used in Italy (and later had A&F removed the sling swivel clips)--and a few M21's in 20 gauge, and a pair of Merkel 12 O/U's as well-- And in spite of "offside" eye dominance, he apparently shot them well. RWTF

That's what I think as well. When I was 16 (some years ago), I was living in Minnesota. I bought a new shotgun, a Spanish double barrel. The gun dealer had 2 in stock. When I bought it, all my friends thought I was nuts and asked "why in the hell would you buy that". You hardly ever came across anyone hunting with a sxs.

I can't help but think that we'd see a lot more (vintage) SXS's being used had they been stocked with usable dimensions.

A couple of thoughts that haven't really been brought out. A World War enamored a lot of folks with "Fire-Power". When the pumps & Semis were first introduced they cost as much as a good double. The switch did not come because of economics at that point, it was the ability to throw lead Faster.
With the 3-shot limit for migratory birds & even some states instituted it for all hunting, I know TN did for a long number of years, many decided to go back to a Two-Shooter. Many were younger shooters who had never used SxS guns & they "Thought" they could not shoot as accurate with the SxS, so went with the O/U.

Personally, I hunt for the fun, I'm not at war with the game. Nor am I in competition with any co-hunters I may be with. There simply is no shotgun that touches my Soul like a good SxS, so I'll shoot one till the day I can no longer shoot anything at all, Period.

I think most of the guys here prefer the older guns for a variety of reasons, some for nostalgia, some because many were hand made, and the quality is just that much better. The old guns don’t kill any better. There’s just something about them. With this in mind, I just picked up an original Colt Trooper .22 long rifle revolver. I sure didn’t need it, but it is a well made gun, rare and made on the same frame as the future Colt Python. I bought it because it represented value and something else I have trouble describing. It’s just cool, I guess and myself being 60 years old, I’d rather have a gun made about the time of my birth, than a newer model.

wasn't the whole reason the o&u was designed was to keep the birds from hiding under the bbls?
I know many who use to cant their sbs's to see what going on under there then level out before the shot.
granted, sbs's may be classics and fun to shoot, but the o&u was obviously designed and created to eliminate a flaw in a sbs's design.
the result?
by ww2's end......sbs's were like the steam locomotive giving way to the diesel.
and you know yourselves, people love to ride the old steam trains restored and still in use. and so too, people shoot sbs's.
but I guarantee youre not going to find a steam train doing a cross country....nor will you see a sbs on the line for huge payouts at sanctioned shoots.
if you do, you should tip your hat to the shooters who do it, out of love and affection for the gun.

I see and know of more people using side-bys now that I did 10-15 years ago. They aren't exactly taking the world by storm, but they seem to be holding on and even a little better than that in this area.

As for whether they are superior or inferior to O/U's could not be less important to me. It's a foolish argument for 99.99% of the people I know. I've been known to miss with either one, but I have no attraction to O/U's so I stick with the Side-bys for all my hitting and missing.

I'm waiting for a 12 gauge to come out on the AR "Platform" so I can have the latest and greatest.

Actually, I bet that has already happened, but I haven't seen one on the shotgun range yet, unlike at the rifle range.

Those un-useable dimensions everyone complains about sure seemed to work 120 years ago.

Buzz, I'm sixty as well and a gun from my birth year? That's way too new!!!

Man. You say/write some silly shit. 10-15 years ago, sxs’s were damn near at their modern pinnacle of popularity. SxS’s we’re flying off dealers shelves and private sellers were moving guns at a fast pace too. Even at the height of popularity the gun club I belonged to in Glenwood, Iowa...I was the ONLY person there shooting SxS guns. When I would go shoot in Omaha...same thing.

So from your post, I’m assuming you literally know or shoot with about 2 people. Haha.

And another thing....I didnt read Bobskis post and for 1 minute think he was bashing SxS guns or that he gave two shits about your personal thoughts on the matter BrentD. I read it as he was providing an explanation on why the SxS gun is rapidly going out of fashion with pretty much every demographic albeit a few hold overs such as us.
You wanna hear a foolish argument BrentD..an argument that 99.9% of the people here can agree on and where you’re 1000% wrong on....your argument about acceptable free loading on this website as you continue to post and use Dave’s services is ridiculous.
Hopefully you’ve paid up.

If Mr Perazzi thought he could win with a SxS the MX8 would have been made so. The O/U is king of the competition guns because it wins. I’ll continue to shoot my SxS and not win but that’s ok. We shoot the SxS because we like them.

I tend to agree with buzz.
nostalgia is a good word.
just like the wife has a car to do her weekly shopping in, but has her sunday car to drive on nice days all dressed up.
seems today men and women have more than one type gun, each for a specific purpose.
on the other hand, a few decades back, the gun was usually chosen as (the one) gun needed and with it came more responsibility for it to be perfect.

yes, we shoot sbs's because we like them. but 'we' are not the same crowd as it was 50-60+ year ago. much more road on the gun choice and fit, and today many take the old shoe anyway they can get it because....its a nice shoe and many praise its performance, but force themselves to wear it tight in the toe.

just like old cars, old guns need tlc. todays young crowd isn't as interested in the mechanics of a gun like we are. they just want a gun to do something and not fail, and to be seen with a particular model, for classing and positioning in society.
I see it all the time.
bravo, if that's your cup of tea.
but, I am who I am, regardless of what I carry on my shoulder.

one of the classic lines we use on the range is....."gee too bad you missed that bird, pal...but you sure did look good."
lotta good looking guns in the hands of owners, but that's about as far as it goes.

Entry level 12ga SxS gun market is soft. Not many will argue that . But why? What is popular with competitive Clays shooters is not much of a factor in my opinion. SxSs have not been a factor in competition for many years. In addition many target shooters are not collectors or accumulators. They tend to have a few tools in the box and shoot the heck out of them.

No young shooters shooting SxSs. SxSs have been a small but dedicated nitch in the market for years. 45 years ago I was there only kid shooting a SxS. The new SxS customers I do see are 50 to 70 years old

So why?? I don't know but I have some thoughts. SxS shooters are a mix of collectors, accumulators , shooters and hunters. I think one cause is Its hard to get excited about a new birdgun when there is little bird hunting to get excited about in the country.

TV and magazines . Years back there were many bird hunting shows shooting and sponsored by SxSs guns. Same in Magazines page after page of SxS gun adds. Now TV is full of canned hunts shooting Semiauto guns and mag adds full of semi and O/Us. Chicken or the egg? I don't know.

I don't know that this is exclusively a SxS issue. Look what has happened to the 12ga Model 12, A5, and Superposed market.

When the economy tanked entry level guns of all types slowed and for some reason it has not returned with the growing economy.

Dealers will still make money if they know the market and buy at wholesale and sell at retail.

I guess I have more question than answers.

I don't know why but seems that everyone thinks if I shoot my SxS it's supposed to make me miss more. Now admittedly I'm not a competitive shooter, just a hunter. Fact is though I shoot a SxS BETTER in the field than any other type I have tried. And NO I never had to cant the barrels to see the bird. I watched the bird, brought the gun to my shoulder & swung & fired. Usual result, Dead Bird.

"IF" I deer hunted in an area where the shotgun with slugs was a requirement I would likely prefer an old W-97 with its barrel chopped to no more than 24". I would prefer to cock that hammer than mess with one of those Stupid cross bolt safeties any day. The thumb was built to operate a hammer or safety & the finger to pull the trigger.

one would conclude that....its you 2 piper. youre a good seasoned shot.
the fact still remains, o&u sales trump sbs sales nationwide.
yes, sbs's are still made and some good ones too.
but...how do we explain the popularity of the o&u today?
as marks said...we have more questions than answers.
and lest we forget, thought provoking questions never have one answer.

Brentd continues to free load...and bObski continues to beat his chest.

When I am sitting in my boat swinging through the tops of surrounding bulrushes.

I can see a SxS clearing a wider path...

I'm really glad you were there to see what I see when I go to there range. Usually, there are about a dozen or more guys there, usually there are one or two side by there in addition to my own and my buddy's.

I didn't meet a lot of folks in the field this year, though I hunt on public ground. But two of them were carrying side-bys. One an old Smith and the other, I am not sure, but not a fancy gun at all. The guy with the Smith had traveled from Ohio to hunt. It was an annual pilgrimage for him.

So, it is what it is Short Fuse. I guess you were there, so you know all about it.

Please keep crying your river. It's entertaining to watch.

No crying from me, BrentD. You’ve outed yourself as a feeeloader all on your own. You just keep on yappin, it’s pretty evident you just don’t know when to STFU,

How about you send Dave some coin. You continue to use the forum to tell your wack ass stories and anecdotes that have zero substance, at least send Dave $5 to cover the bandwidth your silliness generates.

What's up Freddy the free loader...

Looks like you are still crying to me. I'll let you cover "my cost" But you will have to jump on it fast before Joe does.

laughin'

Haha. Whatever you say, Mr Mcfeeley. Pay Dave, and then STFU.

Keep dreamin'

Dave is a better man than eye...

I'd ban your sorry non contributing liberal azz so fast you'd never know you been here...it takes a lot of gaul to post here after you tried to get people to stop contributing financially to this board.

And I'd take bets that nobody would miss you.

And you're saying you can swing a S x S better "through the tops of surrounding bulrushes" than you can a O/U?

Wow.

SRH

How do you explain the popularity of any product? How do you explain the popularity of Cyrus McCormick's reaper? A fact most don't know is that after he made his, he had to wait 13 years for Mr Hussey's patent to expire before he could put it on the market. Mr Hussey had built a more advanced reaper besides.
How do you explain the popularity of the Ford-Ferguson 9N tractor or the Singer sewing machine? None of these were absolute "Bests". Winning a popularity contest most often has nothing to do with Actual Quality. To quote an old saying, "It's Lonely at the Top". I'll just continue shooting my SxS no matter how lonely it gets. I'm pushing mighty hard on 81 yrs, my Lefevers are older than me, but all of them will outlive me by a long margin.

if we can answer it....it may answer why the sbs is in decline.

I can say this with some confidence....we live in a world where quality isn't as important as it was 50-60 years ago.
and, the mindset was then that men learned mechanical skills from their fathers, to include: tool use, gun use, MORALS, saving, house maint, cleanliness, how to behave in public, and hunting skills.

today....?
its how to bake and change diapers while the woman goes out and brings home the bacon.
guns?
they wouldn't know the difference between a 10,000.00 gun from a 300.00 gun.

that may have had something to do with the decline of sbs's....AND American tradition too.

I think Mark hit the nail on the head. Upland hunting is dying, along with that goes the SxS.

I started out with an A-5 which served me well for years. It even shot trap for me better than the Broadway Trap Superposed I picked up later. That was because the "new" drop didn't fit me well. Then at about 24 I picked up a 20 Ga Superposed at a show and that was my hunting gun for 30 years. I put the fanciest piece of wood I'd ever seen (and I was a wood dealer) and someone offered me a fortune for it. It fit me and was very light (under 7 pounds). It outshot everyone around me because of that and my quick reflexes. Things got even better with a featherweight Prussian Lindner sxs at about 5 1/2 pounds. I sell mainly sxs at shows...and no complaints.

Man, this is Positively Bleak Street.

Make America Great Again. Buy a sxs.


______________________________
Yes, I wish for just one time you could stand inside my shoes
You’d know what a drag it is to see you. Bob Dylan

Upland hunting in my part of the South isn't dying .............. it took bad sick with the BQD (bobwhite quail decline) but has held it's own since. Dove shooting and turkey hunting are not in the decline here, IMO. I have tried to do searches to determine if actual small game license sales have declined, but have struck out and can find no info for GA.

if there is anything rarer to encounter in the field than an upland hunter carrying a S x S it's a duck hunter carrying one. When's the last time you saw a duck hunting show where anyone was using a purpose built S x S duck gun?



SRH

There's a quick fix for this, all a person has to do is get out and do it. There's tons of great hunting in the uplands, and more to be had in the lowlands.

It's called value for money and marketing.

Tell that to the millennial, they are the ones dragging down the statistics, it’s not my generation. They don’t hunt and fish like the baby boomers do/did. Stan, you live in rural America. Maybe things are booming where you live, but it just isn’t so for the rest of America. Hunting statistics are down. And, a small study population in rural Georgia is insignificant in terms of the overall data for the entire United States. Don’t take my word for it: Check out the US Fish and Wildlife statistics on that (although they are likely on government shutdown now).

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O.M

Here's another old one: "Better has always been the enemy of good enough." Gil

I was not disputing your statement that upland hunting is dying. I was simply making a statement about my area. I don't need to look up statistics to know that your statement is true for America in general. It's obvious.

Maybe the reason it's still so strong here is that most of the people I know who hunt small game have introduced their children and grandchildren to it ..............and for some reason it "stuck". Shotgunning in general is very strong here, with more school and 4H shotgun teams than in any time in history. Yes, things are "booming" here, especially with the youth and shotguns. They're not shooting S x Ss, but they'll certainly never have any interest in one if they don't start shooting some kind of shotgun.

SRH

Stan that's the way it is at my gun club....packed with young high school kids.
It's good to see....Sadly most never return.


As you know most Game and Fish commissions in the South concentrate the majority of their efforts promoting deer hunting.

The way guys deer hunt now is the most boring form of hunting ever known to man.

They need to be promoting small game hunting...it's exciting and can possibly hold a kids attention.
I've always felt that no kid should ever be allowed to big game hunt without going through some amount of small game hunting.

In the South little if any effort is made to actually restore quail.

Up North their license prices are cheap compared to ours yet in states like Pennsylvania and New York they raise and release Pheasants every year...we have nothing upland to hunt unless you like rabbit or squirrel hunting.

By some a Dove may be considered an upland game bird but to me sitting over a grain field shooting at Doves should not be spoke in the same sentence with upland game hunting.

Down South deer remains supreme...on some NWR and WMA's in Tennessee you can't squirrel or rabbit hunt during some of their deer seasons.

I was commenting that hunting is available, not about its popularity or statistics. Some of the comments seem to be about the dying of the upland bird hunting light in the bird hunters themselves.

Blaming millennials is fine, but I still think the business future of double guns is with people that are comfortable around any firearm. I'd think it's less likely to get a non gunner in the market years from now after their kids are out of college and their houses are paid off.

I don't think the desirability of side by sides is based on their utility to gather poultry. There may be collector or accumulator value that is more than enough to sustain a market. So it's cyclical, what isn't. Business folks will make money at it if they treat it like a business, I know I am not over excited to pay for passion.

I can't say I've ever heard of any upland hunting stories about the beauty of hunting in a crowd. It's always a great thing to have a big spread to yourself, and disappointing to run into a hunter in an area one wanted to work through. The glass is half full Doc Buzz.

Come down South and find you some upland and get back with me....it'll be at a game farm.

trying to revive the sbs in todays culture is a hard sell. youd may have to paint it black and put a pistol grip on it.

Turn on the "Outdoor Channel" any time. No upland hunting, just deer and turkey. Upland hunting is not 'video-genic' because it mostly involves miles of walking and little shootin'. Hard to pose a covey rise.

No reason not to have a good squirrel hunt on TV though. Plenty of game. Cute little yappy dogs. Plenty of rabbits around as well, and everyone loves a beagle.

I don't know why we're letting small game hunting get forgotten. My grandson loves a squirrel hunt...Geo

I've got to take exception to that statement. I hang with the target shooting crowd. I've held positions both local and national with the NSCA and talk with a lot of shooters. The majority of the shooters I know have a collection of shotguns including numerous SXS's that would be the envy of a lot of folks here.

I'm with your grandson on this!!

Yessire- to huntin' squirrel-- years ago, I learned that if you want to be a successful big game hunter, first off-become a successful squirrel hunter-- In Oct. and Nov. (until our MI firearm deer season opens 15/Nov. I often hunt waterfowl in the morning, come home for lunch and a "re-fit" and head to area farms for squirrels with a scoped >22LR--and as an added bonus- often find a den tree and a nice fat-assed raccoon in a crotch- taking a siesta-

A CCI mini-Mag in the ear- and "adios" . As most of the farms I hunt are working dairy farms, and 'coons love grain and feed- the farmer's are happy with that business. RWTF

ken...my point is made.
many champs have sbs's, (in the garage for a sunday drive)

seems guns are like shoes. every event calls for a different shoe.
some wear slippers around the house, some wear boots to go to the barn. some chance it and take the garbage out in slippers and ruin them. some sleep in their boots. (ask any soldier)
each shoe has a specific purpose.
could it be?
the purpose of a sbs has changed? people are wearing the wrong shoes for the wrong reason? or just don't know what shoe to wear anymore?

All the target shooters I know have dozens, in some cases dozens of dozens, of guns. And many of them extremely collectible as well as shootable. SxS's figure prominently in many of those collections.

Personally, I haven't been squirrel hunting since Wednesday.

I guess I am not so glum about the future of shotguns with properly oriented barrels as many here. But if there is a decline in progress, that means, more and cheaper guns to choose from. I am good with that too.

I like to call it being missed not necessarily "forgotten"...hunters 40 to 50 years old are geared towards big game hunting...the ones that miss out are their kids.

It isn't just hunting, fishing, and shooting that isn't being done by millenials buzz. It seems they just aren't participating as much as earlier generations in all outdoor activities.

We have about 8-10" of global warming on the ground right now, and temperatures are in the teens. Yesterday, it was in the mid-20's. I drove past a local school that has a long steep snow covered hill behind it. There were no kids there. The snow covered slope was unbroken. 20-30 years ago, it would have been filled with kids on sleds and toboggans. But they are too busy now with their Nintendos and Play Stations, or text messaging each other from across the living room. The ice skating rink at the park would have been filled with people too, but it closed down due to lack of interest.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that there is reduced participation by millenials in golfing, tennis, water skiing, bicycling, or many other outdoor activities. If you look at some of your old school photos, you will notice that some kids you thought were chubby back then are not nearly as obese as a lot you see now.

Of course with over twice the height of barrels to push through sideways.

Are you saying that you actually shoot (at) ducks in such a place that you cannot swing the shotgun without having to push bulrushes aside with the barrels when you do?

If so, my first question is ........... why don't you knock a few down ahead of time? As in, before the ducks start flying.

SRH

Duck hunting in standing timber in Arkansas I topped a few trees with mine before...

This is why my SxS 16bore double has a .22lr bore in the top rib!
Waldlaufer all the way. Rimfire at the ready, no weight penalty.

I thought seriously of "multi-use" for birds and game and decided one or the other afield 50 years ago. I have one rifle/smooth in aircraft survival kit, the right place for me. RWTF is right on: .22s for squirrels are a great start for hunting, still or running. When we were kids it made no difference.

Stan yes and I do. The more I snip off the poorer they hide me and my dog and boat. And of course pushing the boat in concentrates the stems along the gunnels.

If memory is correct in the fall squirrel season of 1964 I was introduced to Standard Velocity .22 LRs. Prior to that, I had not even known they existed. After trying them I never looked back & have shot almost nothing since. The Squirrels simply do not pay as much attention to one of them going off as they do to the Sonic Crack of a Hi-Vel .22 LR. Never found them lacking in killing power if one shoots straight. Once rolled over two young groundhogs with one shot, I thought I was shooting at one didn't see the one behind him. Also knocked out a few coons which showed before dark while squirrel hunting with them.

I was never a really good pistol shot but did kill some squirrels with a Roger Mark 1 as well as a groundhog or so with it. The problem there was simply one of shoot-ability.

And, I thought I hunted in some bad stuff. But, if there's any way possible I get out of the boat, hide it a ways off, and slip back to the hole in waders. Can't always, I know how it is.

Can't say I ever shot behind one because I was pushing brush out of the way with my barrels, tho'. Hang in there, halk.

SRH

2-piper, have you ever tried subsonics? The high grade subsonic hollow points are more accurate and quieter than the standard velocity ammo, in my experience. Just as deadly but less meat damage should you miss the head shot.

I always used .22 shorts, for the same reason. My rifle, a 552 Remington, with a K4 on it, was THE squirrrel rifle in my group of buddies, and would cycle garage sale .22 short, long, and long rifle interchangeably. The Marlins, Winchester’s and whatnot all demanded LR ammunition.

My 552 autoloader is about as accurate as my 581 bolt action, and that is actually saying something.

Best,
Ted

Stan, I suspect halk hunts waterfowl in similar conditions and temps as I do. You aren’t standing in waders in water for very long when there is ice forming where the reeds meet the water. If you can’t find something to stand on, you have to use the boat.

Ted;
When I was doing most of my Squirrel hunting I was shooting a Mossberg, 144MC as I recall, with a 7 shot detachable magazine. (Most incorrectly call these Clips). It had a spacer rod you could screw in the bottom of the magazine to block it off for shorts. I bought one brick of short hollowpoints & tried them. It was a Tack Driver with the Standard Vel LR but shot about a 40% pattern in the 30" circle with shorts. Was a lot more economical to stay with the LRs than acquire another gun which might not shoot right either. If I had been serious into groundhogs & such larger critters I likely would have gone with high-speed hollow points, but for the squirrel, I just stayed with regular standard velocity solids. Neither killing power nor meat destruction was ever a problem with them. When I started a had an economical source for CIL (Canuck) brand which I used for quite a while. As this rifle did not have a dovetailed receiver I machined a dovetail rail out of aluminum & anodized it black, using a car battery & Rit Dye. Mounted a Bushnell 3x7 .22 scope with a 7/8" tube. After I used it a bit I set it to 5 power & never moved it again. The 5 power setting gave it a large enough exit pupil it was bright right up to dark. I went to work early in the mornings so did a lot of my hunting in the afternoons.

At that point the "Target" loads were about 3*times as expensive, "Perhaps" they would have shrunk my group size by ¼" but it just wasn't worth the expense. I got the CILs from a gentleman I worked with who coached a junior rifle league & he would let me have all I wanted at cost. I would probably have to have driven at least 50-75 miles to have even found a dealer who stocked the standards at that time, much less the higher quality stuff.

Later I did find a dealer who ran a Country Gunshop who kept a good supply of both types, but I had done so well with the regular stuff I just stayed with it, shot mostly Win T22s after that.

Those 552s were nice rifles incidentally, in fact, I don't think I ever shot an older Remington .22 from their lowly Single shots on up that didn't shoot way above what their price would reflect.

I had taken that old Mossberg in on a trade for something in my younger & less intelligent days & soon found the only way to recoup my investment was to shoot it out of it, which I did. I could not in any way badmouth its shoot-ability as long as I stuck with the LRs.

I had an 1890 Winchester growing up that shot only shorts and it was great with them. But when it had to be relined, I changed it to long rifle and use subsonics.

I have many squirrel rifles but my favorite is a very tricked out 1885 Winchester which usually has a 4x Unertl SG scope on it, though it might be equipped with an MVA tang sight instead.

In any event, discovering high quality subsonics (I prefer Eley), has been a game changer in so many ways.
Brent

BrentD, since you are such an expert on most everything, do you still think that golden retrievers are more dangerous than coyotes?





Pets, children, or chickens must never be permitted to be outside in your yard... according to BrentD, well known expert on most everything.

My my..

The first gun I ever shot in my life was a Win model 1885 low wall made in 1887. It was chambered for longs though my understanding is it was mostly used with shorts. My Grandad bought it for his youngest son, my uncle, during the depression for "Less than a Dollar" my dad said. It has now been handed down to my Grandson, though it bypassed me, my Dad & my Son. I never had the privilege of hunting with it. Don't recall barrel length now but suspect 28" & was a full octagon.

Okay ......... I deleted mine.

SRH

How fitting, "decline of the side by side" not only in shooting but also in topic!

Sadly there appears to be a lot of declining going on cheer...

Yes, Ted- I started with a Stevens Walnut Hill .22lr-- but as our area had public dumps, and they closed at noon on Saturdays- rat shooting with our .22 rifles became a real big deal. I had saved my lawn mowing $, and bought a Rem 550, also with a Weaver scope 4X-- tube magazine, the whole package-- I always shot .22LR Hollow-Point Kleanbore ammo. I have an ad for that period (1954-1955) and it shows the 550 at $48.75, the sleek 552 at $54.95

We had rats galore, you'd pop one, and a few minutes later the "pall-bearers" showed up. We also shot them on farms, but only on dirt floored buildings, not holding livestock. Too risky of a ricochet on a cement floored "pole barn" bldg.

I gave that Remington to my oldest grandson recently- he's mainly a target shooter, but his Dad and I love summer evening wood-chucking- He has a .22-250, I have an older Sako 759 BA in .243Win- both rifles wear Leupold VP scopes- we also get fox, and coyotes and feral cats on occasion.

Some reader of F&S magazine asked Dave Petzal- Gun Edito: What past hunting/shooting experience would you like to relive again today- And his answer was: "Rat shootin' with scoped .22's at the local dump- 1950's era".. Me too--

I got all you wanna bees beat
...I started with a bb gun.

Killed more chit than Audubon.

Right on Canvasback and I'm sure you know the best place to hunt the King of Waterfowl up north is a big brackish (cloudy water)lake filled with sago pondweed with hardstem bulrush growing at the edge of the open water. Push the boat in with a duckbill pole as the oars used to get there won't work. I never stand up in my Duckers except to kill cripples and am always in chest waders. I often use the duckbill pole to push through the pipe in the Ducker to stabilize and make it easier for the dog to come back aboard. But alas water levels are so high in my area now that my favorite sago lakes are full of slimy fish and the sago beds are gone.

Halk, my hunting property is at Delta Marsh, home of Delta Waterfowl. And the marsh was ruined over the decades by invasive carp moving back and forth between Lake Manitoba and the marsh. Eating every bit of sago and a bunch of other stuff as well. A significant joint venture to control the carp by stopping access to the entire marsh through the use of weirs, completed about 4 years ago, is starting to show benefit.

We use locally built flat bottomed duck boats, push 'em into the reeds and bend the reeds over the boat for concealment.

I'm just in the final stages of having a nice, thick barreled Remington 1894 BE restocked and am looking forward to using it as a waterfowl SxS. 30" barrels and 7 1/2 pounds. Minimum barrel wall thickness is over .040 and with new wood, so should be good to go.

I think Ted is a 550 or 552 admirer, too. I got my 552 as a going-away gift from the newsroom and, with the weather warming up to -8C yesterday, popped off two porcupines and a pair of rabbits for a pie. Those Remingtons are peerless.

15 years of Fake News and bloviating in your abbreviated career, and all you got was a lousy Remington 552??? I'd think someone of your self-described greatness would have been given a presentation grade Purdey double.

Now we're back on topic!

It isn’t a Purdey, but, I wouldn’t call a 552 lousy...

Best,
Ted

When we consider the self-described greatness of the Great King Brown, even a presentation grade Purdey Best might be considered lousy. Just sayin'

wid ah winchester model 67 .22 an ah stevens model 94 .410, ah 10 year old is king o de whorle...

Just wondering, Oh Edster- do all the good folks in NH and VA that you associate with speak like "Rochester" from the old Jack Benny show?? Fox

Ever seen a 5 year old acting out to try and get attention? Same thing.

I've talked to ed on the phone ...........once..........and he doesn't talk like that.

It's pitiful, actually.

SRH

Stan;
I totally blew it on identifying that old Mossberg. A bell finally rang in my head & I googled it & confirmed. It was a 42MC. Sights were terrible, little sheet metal pieces which folded up & down for the front sight & flipped around on the rear. Had about 4 choices for either, including a peep in the rear which was too far from the eye to be useful. I first fitted it with a Williams 5D peep & a Lyman ivory bead front on a ramp. I could shoot that pretty respectfully but after a couple of years mounted the Bushnell scope & things picked up.

Miller, the Model 46B was my first rifle, and my first deer was with it, two running shots. Had one cartridge up the spout, another between my lips because the ejector was unreliable. I still have it. Went to scope, still have the sights.

I mention running shots because village kids used their fathers' or their own, often back and forth to school through the woods, and anyone who couldn't hit running squirrels wasn't good company. Thanks for the memories.

"Back on topic," he says and every post a political plug. What a hoot!

Anything currently either made by or for Remington is crap. Even their ammo should not be trusted. Pitiful. They even screwed up the Marlin products when they took them over. But hell, what do Leebs know about guns?

Same here jO...I received a Daisy pump action for Christmas (must have been 6 or 7 years old) and left it a little to close our gas heating stove. Woke up the next morning to some find I had some serious cast off to the plastic stock! I caught a lot if hell for killing birds and shooting the neighbors cats and chickens. Shooting wooden matches was entertaining and got me a butt whipping too. My favorite quick load technique was to dump a pack of BB's in my mouth and spew (spit) into the loading port!!!! Of course I always maintained the bore with a copious quantity of 3in1 oil that made a nice smoke when fired.

The air compression on one of those old Daisy's would actually give a diesel effect & ignite the oil giving just a bit more velocity to the BB.

Friend of mine growing up would dump a package of BBs in his mouth and spit'em into the gun to load. His gun was bad rusty. We figured he go so many of the squirrels we hunted because his spit was poison...Geo

A new Browning or Italian o/u is a much better value than any a new sxs option at a similar price point. Why would anyone buy a Turkish sxs when you can get a citori for the same price?

Yep Canvasback been to Delta several times in the '60's and '70's and hunted divers in lakes to the north including Dog, St. George, and St. Andrews. Also The Narrows and Oak Point on Lake Manitoba itself. I suppose carp have ruined both of those spots also. Greater Scaup used to be regular visitors at the latter. Minnesota DNR tried killing the rough fish and barring their entry into Lake Cristina, once one of the state's premier Canvasback lakes, but I have not heard much about the project for years.

Because some folks like their barrels SxS & not up & down, its called personal taste.

some of us shoot better with an over and under, but love the look and feel of classic pre war like sxs's...

I’m suggesting the sxs might be more popular if consumers could purchase a decent new sxs for $2000. That’s not possible. One's never sure what they are getting with a Turkey gun and who wants to buy a gun that may need to be “fixed” right out of the box? Likewise, what current production $2,000 sxs will hold up to high volume clay shooting?

Not sure my money would be on a Citori holding up to that, either.

Best,
Ted

ryan, i hear ya...turkish guns have come a long way in the past few years...now its pretty much, you get what you pay for, with dickinson brand guns being the top of their kind...

as for the durability of new guns, that too is a function of cost...people like blaser and beretta make o/u guns for high volume target shooting...those target guns are priced much higher than $2000...and included with the extra cost are service and repair facilities...

the best sxs target grade gun in the $2000 price range is the browning bss, not made since the eighties...

others with more experience than i might want to confirm or add to what i post above...

One thing I do know about BrentD is that he has no shame...

They won't.

SRH

What do you call "high volume"?

One is never sure what they are getting with an O/U either. I've seen Berettas that shot one barrel eight inches from the other.

How many Turkish guns have you owned, or had first hand experience with? The Turk O/Us I've been around are crap. The S x Ss are much higher quality, maker to maker.

SRH

I’m not suggesting a Citori is a Kolar or a Berretta is a Perazzi. I think a Citori is a good value for what it is.

My citori conservatively has 100k rounds through it. That’s not high volume but it isn't low . No issues except springs.

I own zero Turkish guns. I’ve tried to buy a couple but both disappointed at the patterning board.

100k rounds fired in any gun, without issue, except springs is remarkable...speaks well for the browning brand...

japan tried to get into sbs's in the late 80's 90's. they tried hard, but they never stuck. skb comes to mind.

You've got some kind of arrangement I've seldom encountered. How do you get to pattern Turkish guns before deciding whether or not to buy them? i'm jealous.

SRH

This is awesome. Clearly, I've gotten in your head. Fantastic and sweet dreams!

Ed:Perhaps a qualification: Skeet. The vast majority of the shooting was with with sub gauge tubes. That must cause significantly less stress.

Stan: There is a small shop at one of the local clubs. Reminds me of my first double purchase. I was looking hard at this Zoli in a shop and they asked me if I wanted to fire it. I said sure and we went behind the store, the guy loaded two shells, and boom! Massive recoil, and they are all laughing. Guy had loaded two magnum turkey loads as a joke.

shooting a 12 bore with sub gauge tubes would certainly be easier on the gun, i would think...

an this guy who thinks its funny to joke around with heavy loads, sounds like a real jerk...and a lousy salesman...

my experiences with japanese made skb brand guns have been excellent...good shooting and reliable hunting guns...

understand skb brand guns, made in turkey, are now being imported...any experience you wish to share here?

I haven't read all 17 pages, I do want to say that I have brought 8 people into the fold in the last 10 years. 3 are in their 20's. Take someone shooting and let them actually try a decent sxs.

Nah, that's a funny joke. I was sold!

mark, good for you...maybe there is still hope...

most sxs guns are decently made...problems occur when people try to use hunting guns as target guns...

In my head...in your dreams.

Ed that would be scary out of the junk you sell.

and what we have not discussed here is aesthetics...

the image of the classic prewar sxs field gun is very pleasing to the eye, from most any angle...

on the contrary, the post war o/u target gun, is to be frank, rather ugly, regardless of the viewing angle...

here is a simple test...hang a classic sxs on the wall and step back and admire the beauty and harmony of its lines and observe how everything flows to create a natural dynamic mean, at the tip of the splinter forend...then hang your favorite o/u on the wall. what do you see? just a rather boring, clubby looking, mundate thing, that does a very good job of breaking clay birds...

as someone once asked, why kill a beautiful bird with an ugly gun?

My post did get back on topic with the observation that a Fake News bloviater deserved a presentation grade Purdey Best as a quitters gift for an abbreviated 15 year career of self-described greatness King.

The little thumbnail of Ronald Reagan is my new temporary tagline. You didn't like my old tagline either because it noted that I am a Benefactor member of the NRA. And we all know how often you denigrate and insult the NRA.

I plan to change my tagline in the near future to reflect my devotion to preserving the 2nd Amendment. I know how much you like to undermine the 2nd Amendment too, but our continued ownership of double guns relies upon it, so it will certainly be more on-topic than a lot of crap you and other Trolls like you post here.

EDIT: Members will note that you only pretend to IGNORE me, usually when you wish to run away from my response to your crap. What a fraud you are.

Over here in the U.K., and certainly in Scotland there are plenty of side by sides in daily use and that are being passed on to beginners. However they are all older guns.

When I was a kid in the 1980s the default for most new shooters was the AyA Yeoman, or the Gunmark Kestral. They were at a price point for a16 year old to afford after a summer working on a farm and a bit of help from grandparents. I can stil picture my new AYA yeaoman in its box.

Nowadays the cheapest side by side is a few thousand. Instead new shooters are buying over and under Berattas, ReVos, Rizzinis etc. Any number of these available new for sub £1,000, and in many case sub £700.

So new entrants are buying and using over and unders which is what they can buy and what the clay pigeon clubs / schools use as teaching guns.

I am sure it’s a fashion thing, and no reason why an affordable side by side cannot be made and marketed. Just nobody has.

There are affordable new S x Ss out there, Heym. Once people get past their "blind spot" about where they're made, they recognize the fact.

What's a ReVo?

SRH

Actually the O/U presents a better canvas for engraving than a SxS.....Ed

I'm in agreement on the Citori being a good value. A new sporting CX can be had for around $1700.00 maybe less if you shop around. Barely used field guns are available on the cheap. One thing about a Citori is it can be rebuilt fairly inexpensively and parts are easily obtainable. Not so with some other brands.

I went all the way back to muzzle loaders..ended up with That Scotts personal 9 bore Blisset one of the finest guns ever made...then on to cartridge hammer guns before choke then to big ten gauge hammer guns with choke and real killing power...then to a few 2.5 box lock toys closed out with a 1925 2&3/4" Scott sidelock.

Now I've graduated to O/Us and I've still got the finest automatic ever made a Benelli SBE.

John Browning was on to something....truth is I think I like the O/Urs better than the SxSs.

This is the first Browning Superposed that I've ever owned 1959 vintage solid rib 30" barrel and I like it as good or better than any SxS I ever owned.

Nice superposed. I have one in 20 gauge and it is one of the best fitting and handling guns I have. Which is something as most over/unders I don't like.

the superposed is a pre war design that captures the spirit of the classic sxs...kudos to val browning and to fn for not giving up, after american arms makers rejected it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_A._Browning

Didn't they thumb their nose at the A5.

That “White Line” pad is you.

Best,
Ted

Winchester did- they refused to give John M. Browning a royalty on every A-5 produced, so Browning tried Remington- UMC. The CEO- Marcellus Hartley Dodge died of a heart attack, before the deal was done, so Browning hiked over the pond to FN in Liege- and the rest is history. Winchester lost out on the auto-loading shotgun market big-time. If Mr. Bennett had agreed to John Brownings terms, WRA would have dominated the US repeating shotgun market.

Since you want to tell me what I need in a pigeon gun ........... sit back for a sec and hear this. A Benelli SBE ain't the best (semi) automatic ever made. I've hunted ducks, and other stuff, alongside many of them in other's hands, and have seen them fail to feed numerous times. They need to be meticulously clean, and need plentiful oil, to function right. The inexpensive Beretta 390 will shoot circles around the SBE with a whole lot less fussing over. Mine went to the bottom of the Bayou Meto once, submerged in all the silt and rotten leaves. I poured the mud, water and trash out of wherever it would come out of, checked the bore, and reloaded it. She went back to killing ducks without one failure to eject or feed. If you think a SBE will do that you're living in a dream world.

Evidently you're another who thinks if they pay more they get more.

SRH

I’m kind of fond of my granddad’s A-5. I’m betting it’s better than a 390 or a SBE. It sure functions good as long as I keep that 30 weight motor oil on the friction magazine sleeve that he left me with the gun. But, I try to keep it out of the mud pits, even though it’s probably the best of the automatics.

Haven’t read the internet post that complains about the Browning A5 click. My A5 standard wears a Browning Stalker stock, and has several different barrels. If it fails to fire, the ammunition is bad. Use it once or twice a year in horrible weather.

I own one of the first SBEs that came to the US, marked Heckler & Koch.

Hasn’t been fired in years. Anybody who thinks it is the best is delusional.

Best,
Ted

If the A5 is anything like the Remington M11 jam-o-matic, then it's got no place on a windy Kansas sandbar. Even if bluebird weather, never mind the bad stuff. But maybe A5s are a whole 'nother thing.

I've put the recoil operated A5 and M11 style guns to the test for years, exclusively. The 390 is superior in reliability, and other ways, too. Not the least of which is recoil attenuation.

Can you name a recoil, or inertia, actuated semi-auto shotgun that the US military ever adopted? Wonder why.

SRH

Nothing wrong with a Beretta to me their action just feels clunky...push the bolt release and it's like chhhhhuunnnkkk.

True there were problems with the first SBEs...they shot low and had problems with the extractors I think..both of mine are left handed they have the later stepped rib and triangular safeties.

One of my SBEs I bought new in 2000 it's going on 19 years old the other a guy traded me for a turkey call it's going on 16 years old ...I had both cerakoted several years ago.

I've never had a fail to fire or function with either one with the exception of slow 1 oz loads....1290fps 1 oz. Estates work flawlessly.

I've also never used them for a boat anchor or a boat paddle and I try keep them clean and lightly oiled with just a tiny bit of grease on the rails and bolt.

Sounds like you were using too much oil on your anchor Stan.

I've changed the recoil springs two or three times and the magazine springs once or twice.

SBEs are not made for dummies...

The great majority of military shotguns are pumps.

Best,
Ted

It's all good

I’ve heard about A5s and Remington model 11s jamming, and, to a one, the operator doing the complaining can’t describe how the adjustment rings are placed for the load they are using, or, when the last time the crud was unpacked from around the action spring. Most of the time when you ask how the operator has the adjustment has been set, you get a stupid look, accompanied by a “huh?”
Gas guns are more idiot proof, in that regard.

Best,
Ted

A5s are not made for dummies either...only A5 I've owned was a wood stocked Jap 26" 3" magnum I set up for turkey hunting...had it parkerized and cut the shine off the stock with 00 steel wool.

Cool looking gun didn't pattern that well and being left handed the bolt handle poked me in the back on a sling. Wish I still had it.

Stan, I’m pretty sure the A-5 was indeed used in warfare, even by the US (e.g., WWII, Vietnam). Not sure what is specifically meant by the term ‘adopted’? Nevertheless, the A-5 has stood the test of time. Has the 390 stood the test of time like the A-5? Also, I think you are talking about perceived recoil rather than recoil attenuation, since energy is energy, it’s just changed with time depending upon the recoil mechanism, but it’s not attenuated, or lessened. The amount of energy in terms of recoil is the same no matter the action. BTW, I think SBE guns are pretty nice too, except they don’t like light loads. 390’s are good guns too, I just don’t see the superiority part....sorry.

It's superior because he said it was...

I believe the M1 super 90 action came out of a military assault style shotgun.

Benellis are the Pirazzis of automatics...

Military and police version of the A5:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/960249544/FN...n----------.htm


I wouldn’t want to be in front of it.

Best,
Ted

8 shots...barrels kinda short but it ought to kill some pigeons.

Sweet it even has a white line pad...sheww

I was expecting this response Ted.

Do you know another gun that needs such meticulous care and adjustment and maintenance? I can tell you mine was carefully cleaned and lubricated. But it just doesn't hold up to the rigors of a Kansas sandbar. If you like'em, more power to ya. I sold mine and was glad to get a dollar for it. That went towards my first double which has never ever failed to fire.

Brent...when you make a donation to this great message board then maybe someone will give a damn what you say or think...in the mean time please keep your thoughts to yourself.
Thanks.

The Remington M11 was used by the military in WWII to teach AA lead to gunners and were available on some bases for recreational trap and skeet. Those guns are marked with the Flaming Bomb and US. Gil

buzz, my bad on the usage of the word "attenuate". I thought it meant to "spread out" or "lengthen the duration of". That's what all devices that reduce felt recoil do ...........stretch out out from a sharp peak to a longer "push". Thanks for correcting me. Now I know how to use the word properly.

The A5 may have been made in a M & P version, but was never adopted and issued by our military for dirty work. Gil is right about the anti-aitcraft application. Not much problem with mud, dust and dirt messing with it there.

I'm not bad mouthing the A5 design at all. I shot a M11 20 ga. on doves and quail for years, and learned how to keep it functioning perfectly. But, it just won't take the abuse that a 390 will, and keep on feeding perfectly. I don't intentionally abuse any gun, even an "automatic", but "stuff" happens. When you trip and fall in chest waders and your gun goes down in the murk, and you're hours away from your cleaning kit, you get to appreciate the bullet-proof design of the Beretta, who just happens to own Benelli and make all the Benelli barrels. I've seen a lot of SBEs that fail to feed and lock up. May be just operator error, in maintaining them, but too many people have fallen for the advertising hype on them and think, if they pay almost enough to buy three 390s, they must be perfection. They ain't.

SRH

Less my buds here get the wrong idea about me, I'm not a "closet automatic man". I bought that one about 15 years go for $525 NIB, to use when I hunted with Charlie Boswell as they filmed hunting shows for TV, on the now defunct Gobblin' Fever series, by Mark Scroggins. Charlie is the founder of Comp-N-Choke and he and his sons still own and run the business. CNC was a sponsor of the show, so I naturally needed to be shooting his chokes on camera. No way was I gonna thread any of my S x S duck guns and shoot with those extended tubes. So ........ the 390. I make no apologies for not turning down free hunts in Arkansas and Mississippi because I refuse to shoot an autoloader.

It has no soul, but it is a duck killing machine.



SRH

Read what you just wrote...it's an eletist reply.

Stan stop kidding yourself no one cares what you hunt with.

Fact is I don't care what I hunt with....because for me it was never to look kOOl.

Well, this thread deviation away from the SxS guns to discussing automatics, in a sense supports the decline of the SxS. However, it’s so darned cold here in Indiana today (0 deg with a -30 deg wind chill), that I wonder if any automatic, no matter the brand, would even function. A SxS probably would be ok. Speaking of the bad weather, I’m a little worried about my bird dogs in the kennel. I had some super dooper dog houses made with full insulation, even in the floor and roof, but still a little worried. I hope they are ok, just have to get through a couple of days. Sometimes I think Indiana is the coldest place on earth in the winter. With this in mind, spring can’t get here soon enough for me!

Decline of the side x side sales of new guns started before or just about when I started shooting in the early 60s.
However, put a small bore or high grade double on your table at a gun show and watch the vultures gather. They almost all have grey hair, though.

I have seen 1100s function pretty well done below zero.

It is -23 here right now. It is cold, but it has been much colder. Winds are supposed to come up to 25 mph with gusts in the 40s so windchills are expected in the -50 to -60 range.

Indiana sounds pretty balmy.

Who gives a damn Charlotte...

LOL, then you haven't spent a winter in Manitoba.

A lot more people on this site are interested in what Stan has to say than pay much attention to the verbal diarrhea you constantly spew, spelling/grammer mistakes and all. As I have pointed out before, Keith's defense of your obnoxiousness has emboldened you to pollute every thread possible with your drivel.

Count me in that group. Stan lives in Deep Dixie-- he shares his many years of shotgunning with all of us-- as a "Shootinist Gent'man. And he endures, the "Trolls that seem to invade websites.

Other Southern Gents that share their knowledge with us, are Raimey Ellenberg, GLS, and George Newbern, among many others. When I read "Homeless Joe's" replies I can only wonder what he is really like??

I bought a 12 A-5 28" mod. VR barrel from the base PX in Quantico ($135.00) and still have it. When steel shot came out, I had Briley stainless chokes installed, used it for years for divers and other ducks from layout boats. Setting the friction ring and having the bevel set properly, along with some spray lube, is a key to proper function, in the nasty weather of waterfowling.

I use my 12 bore M-12's (and a M'berg 835 Ulti-Mag pump now, and I don't shoot from layout boats, nor use waders either, for my duck hunts today- it's all land based pass shooting. But I would use the A-5 again, in preference to the autoloaders offered on today's gun market.

Remember what the late Ernest Hemingway once said: "A gun is to shoot!" RWTF

Just the same in person fOx...I like how you came back with such a wonderful attitude after your prior go round here.

All my guns get meticulous care and maintenance. I would say that most people I know who hunt, don’t fall into that category. I only know one other guy who regularly shoots a double, my friend Lloyd3, and he will mix it up with pump guns as well, same as me.
We have -30 here today, I have hunted in mid 20s below, but, I was a younger dude when I did it, and might not have it in me anymore. If I did attempt it, I’d use my Browning A5, as it has been reliable for both of its owners since 1952. Dad never had a hiccup with it, and neither have I. It gets cleaned and lubed at every use, same as the other guns. My belief is that the synthetic lubes that I use on the shock in the A5, and the others guns, as well, helps keep it running. But, Dad never had those lubes, and just used lighter oil when it was cold.
If you had one that didn’t work, there was a problem with the gun, that simple. Light loads in a gun with a brand new set of springs can cause issue, but the fix is really simple-put the old springs back in, and lube the shock.
Brent, sorry you had an issue with one. Broken guns on a hunting trip suck. That said, I’d be looking at why it was acting up, instead of blaming the design. Unlike the first SBE, the A5 and model 11 run pretty well, if taken care of.

Buzz, if you lived here, the police would be notified, and your dogs would be taken away from you. It happens all the time. I have a Setter, and understand the breeds limitations in this part of the country. Sub zero temps overnight and outdoors are beyond what a field Setter is capable of. My dog lives with me, indoors.

If you hunt with Huskies, I suppose they are fine out there. You would still have issued with the law in this part of the world, right or wrong.

Best,
Ted

I know the answer to that one, Joseph-- The late Bette Davis-- "Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte".. Foxey

Ted, when I owned the M11, it came to me in very good condition but unused for many years. So I stripped it down and cleaned and lubed and got it in fine shape. But it did not last the first trip to the sandbar before it jammed. Kansas sandbars are special. There is more sand flowing on the bar than there is water in the river sometimes. It may have behaved better in other environments but I wasn't about to keep a gun that needed a complete stripping and rebuilding after every morning outing. As a grad student at the time, I had other things to do and a very dependable 870 that was every bit as "attractive" as the M11 with much room to spare and I also had my grandfather's other shotgun -an 1897 Winchester. It also has never failed. At that time, the vast majority of my shotgunning was on sandbars from the beginning of the season until freeze up in January, so my guns were chosen around that environment and my wallet was VERY thin at the time.

The other thing about the M11 is that it, one time, tripled on me and dumped the entire mag on a single duck. It was cold then too, so maybe my gloves had something to do with that event. Afterwards, it stood in the closet until its time to move came. And then it went.

It might very well have been that particular gun or something I did wrong in the cleaning of it, but it was not trustable, better alternatives were at hand, and it had no cache for me at all.

The Model 11 likely needed a new set of springs.....

Could well be, buzz. I didn't know a gunsmith in Lawrence, Kansas at the time, and probably couldn't have afforded him if I did. I don't see it as much of a loss. I'm not sure why anyone is particularly attached to the M11 or the A5. I think there are much better guns for the money, but sometimes it's not all about the bare bones dollar values just like I much prefer side by sides to over/unders, even though the latter are supposed to be so much better. We all have likes and dislikes.

James, this is a steaming load of crap, and you know it. JOe is no different now than he was when I first entered this forum. He has always been somewhat gruff and abrupt, and takes no prisoners. It is who he is, and unlike a lot of seriously obnoxious guys here, he does not tell us repeated lies or work to undermine our gun rights. Nor is he a fake, plastic fraud who operates under a veil of fake civility. jOe has been critical of me, and I have been critical of him. But he has never stooped so low as to lie about me or drag my family into any fray, unlike a couple guys you feel are worthy of continued consideration.

If you really want to shine a light on obnoxious people, you could certainly do better. Why do you target jOe, who actually contributes both money and double shotgun knowledge to this site, instead of going after a useless POS like BrentD? BrentD has stated his intent to continue his call to bankrupt this forum, while engaging in the same behavior that he claims as the basis for his boycott? He is obviously mentally sick.

Stop bringing me into your hard-on for jOe. It is wrong, and you could easily choose a more worthy target. There is no shortage of Trolls, fakes, frauds, FUDD's, or anti-gun liars here.

Keith, hope you aren't freezing too badly down in PA.

I occasionally target jOe as I would any loudmouth obnoxious prick in the bar who can't keep his mouth shut but has to denigrate any and all the patrons. jOe contribute to the forum? That's a laugh. He's been caught numerous times perpetuating bullshit about gun mechanics. I'm no expert so I keep my mouth shut and listen. jOe has to shoot his mouth off. Besides, you have everyone else covered...those who deserve it and a few who don't.

And it's hysterical you call Old Colonel Alice Kravitz......because if anyone was spending time policing this forum and sticking their nose into other's business, it's jOe.

Ever since you stuck up for him there has been a pronounced uptick in his posting and his willingness (which has always been there) to be our resident nattering nabob of negativity.

BTW I don't think anyone who has dragged your family into the fray here are worthy of continued consideration. But there is only really one who has done that, not counting all the times you bring it up yourself. Like in the post I quoted above.

jOe is practically the definition of an internet troll, but you think, simply because of his support of the 2cd, that he's deserving of our continued consideration. I beg to differ.

Sorry, but as long as the coward jOe hides behind the safety of your skirts, I'll be drawing attention to that.

When I was a teenager in 1955, I bought a Winchester M50 for duck hunting. I liked it better than my dad's A5 and mod 1100 Remingtons.
Jim

I don’t see any cowardice in jOe. Where’s that coming from? I haven’t seen Keith run to his rescue. Keith voices agreement with jOe occasionally, but I don’t see any more than that. Sometimes jOe is wrong, but sometimes he’s right. I think that can be said of us all. Sometimes his posts are meant as jokes and are amusing. I just don’t see where he’s hiding behind anyone. Sorry. And to qualify this, let me assure you, I’ve been in his gunsights before too.

I've never needed to hide behind or from anyone Internet or real life...

Especially long winded blOw hards from Canada.

There is cowardice in all bullies, buzz. That’s their nature.

Thank you buzz. I think your post is as accurate and unbiased as it could possibly be. I continue to consider James a friend and a great guy, but I feel he has taken his dislike for jOe to unnecessary extremes considering that there are several targets here much more deserving of derision.

James, at a balmy -5 degrees F here, my blood is still thin enough to realize that jOe has not changed a bit, and if he is posting more often than average, it is because it's wintertime and hunting season is over and there is more time to waste online. He has never needed to hide behind me or anyone else to be himself. I do consider his support for the 2nd Amendment to elevate him above the Trolls and FUDD's here that work to undermine it. But like it or not, buzz was absolutely correct in his response to you. Considering some of the differences of opinions he and jOe have had, it was big of him to stand up and say it. And jOe doesn't come anywhere close to my internet stalker Gladys Kravitz.

Oh, one more thing.... If I did wear a skirt, I would flash a hairy moon at you. Think about that one bucko!

I read about duck hunting on those Kansas river sandbars-John Hewitt detailed a lot of those hunts in his book "The Winchester Model 12 as a Way of Life""-great stories about his boyhood days hunting and fishing in Kansas, with his father, twin brother, and other family friends--

John wrote for the older GSJ-- when Ed and Becky Gray were "at the helm".. He wrote, IMO, the best of the many hunting stories I've read, about coming down from Alaska to hunt pheasants in Kansas- in early November-- great story. RWTF

Great shotgun-- for reasons I never grasped, WRA never seemed to grab the auto-loading shotgun market, as they did the pump shotgun market- back "in the day".. I liked the receiver shape, and with a ventilated rib on the barrel, the M50 was a smooth pointing and easy to swing on crossing birds--It took me a while to get used to the "squared-back" of the receiver on my A-5 "lightweight 12" --lightweight at 8 lbs. I'm guessing the M50 went at about 7&1/2 lbs.

But- as I prefer the weight-forward, slightly muzzle heavy balance of the M12-- the M50 with the mechanism in the buttstock, didn't quite have that feel- as does the Browning A-5.

A hunting pal had a M50 in 20 gauge, and he shot a fair amount of grouse with it- It was a 28" mod. plain barrel gun, he cut the barrel down to 25" for grouse hunting (this was before choke tubes)-- and swore by it for grouse and quail--

You make yourself look stupid I call it to your attention and I'm a bully...

Buzz, I just looked at a you tube video of a guy demonstrating use of a turkey call, and Frank's main contribution was to call him fat. Frank was instrumental in getting another member here fired from his job. His offense? Calling Frank out and noting that should they ever meet, Frank was likely to have the shit kicked out of him. Check out turkey calling forums. Frank doesn't just save his best self for us. He behaves like a dick in whatever sphere he's operating in. Easy to find.

You and Keith may think he's just being straight and sometimes his humour is misunderstood. Reality and his lengthy track record says something different.

He started a nice thread yesterday. About how we all got started with SxS. So nice to see he's capable of it but the Keith in me sees laying groundwork so he can point to it in the future and say "Hey, I'm not always an azzhole!" I'll try to suppress my natural cynicism and enjoy his thread. It's a great one and just what this forum thrives on.

You are full of crap.

canvasback, spot on.

canvasback,
You don't seem to me to be the kind of man who requires validation.
I do however believe, as I'm sure most on the board does to,
that you've sized up homelessjOe (aka Frank Cox) to the "T".

And we've all sized up Minnie Pearl bOb cash...hang tags and all.

Exactly how am I full of crap, Frank? Did I say something untrue? That's usually what's meant when one is said to be "full of crap".

If so, please show me what's untrue. So far, I've offered my own opinions of your behavior (can't be untrue because they are opinions) and a couple of examples of why I hold those opinions. Am I incorrect? Above all I like to try to deal in facts so if I'm mistaken, please show me where i went wrong.

Here's another opinion that puts me back on topic. I think Frank is partially responsible for the decline in SxS because when newbies get on here and ask a perfectly reasonable question, Frank has the habit of trying to make them feel small because of their ignorance on the subject matter. That sure can't help spread the good word.

Give me an example of me making a new guy on here feel small...fact is I've never claimed to know it all like some Canadian pecker-heads have.

I did tell the guy he needed to loose weight but that was out of care for his health.

Bwahahahahaha!

Just about every time someone gets on here to ask about grampa's gun, you just can't wait to tell him it's a fence post. No explanation, no reasoning....just an opportunity to tell someone who asks for help that they are an idiot.

And this whole thing with you being critical of guns put up for sale. That shit's none of your business unless you can prove unequivocally intentional fraud. Or whether they will pay Dave his $10. Or whether they are gun dealers. I mean, what's with that Frank? It's essentially an un-moderated site. Who died and put you in charge?

OMG, You called me a Canadian pecker-head! I'm crushed.

That's a flat out lie...

When I don't hold back is when I see a guy that has found this old gun and thinks he's hit the lottery...never once have I said anything bad about someone's grandads gun.

And the only time I've ever said anything bad about a gun in the sale section is when it was posted by gun dealer...which is against the rules.

Get to searching jOe'head

Is there some part of this thread that has to do with SxS guns? Guess I missed it... probably buried under all the vitriolic bombast.

Good day.

What we really need right now is an ignorant comment from one of our anti-gun Trolls.

Wait... here it comes...

if this keeps up, this forum will wind up with just jOE and keet...

Oh c'mon James! You want reality? Here is reality....

We have a guy here called BrentD who has been running a campaign to encourage bankrupting this forum. That would ruin things for everyone, not just thin-skinned new guys.

We have a guy called King who tells us flat out lies about the efforts of Liberal Left Democrats to separate us from our guns and our Constitutional rights to own and shoot them. He also lies about the NRA. He repeatedly and dishonestly claims that our Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms was a recent invention of the Supreme Court in 2008. In short, he is running the same propaganda and misinformation campaign that Anti-gun organizations operate... right here in a firearms forum.

Then we have a guy who busts people's balls by saying horrible unforgivable things like, "Your gUn isn't worth near whAt yOu think, and it should be nailed to a wall in Cracker Barrel."

Holy shit man... Talk about having mixed up priorities. This campaign of yours is like having the police out writing parking tickets while a killer is actively stabbing people.

[/quote]
Holy shit man... Talk about having mixed up priorities. This campaign of yours is like having the police out writing parking tickets while a killer is actively stabbing people. [/quote]

What campaign? A few posts as compared to your several hundred parking tickets to humiliate Jagermeister? Anyone forget the drooling idiot gif? How about the joint Joe/Keith attacks on Drew Hause? Defending the constitution, were you?
The similarity between Hopeless Joke and Jagermeister is that both posted in volume out of proportion to what people cared about their opinion. The difference is JM was gentlemanly about it.
I'm not at all losing sleep over the perceived decline of sxs's. More for me.

Gee JBLondon, with a whole 52 posts under your belt since 2017, you must be one of those thin-skinned new guys I mentioned.

I might need to resurrect the drooling idiot gif for you, since you are obviously too ignorant to notice that Drew Hause personally attacked me and even initiated his whining "Down One" thread with the express purpose of attacking me, Dave K, and James M. He framed that disingenuous attack around a deadly dangerous medical mission trip to Guatemala, and even preached the "eternal significance" of his off-topic attack on us. He lied about me and accused me of "proof texting Scripture", without ever backing up that accusation.

Oh yeah, that deadly dangerous medical mission trip turned out to be little more than a long weekend, and he was logged in here all but 5 days of his histrionic departure.

He became fair game to me AFTER his personal attacks on me. He returned to the forum after I assured his friend Ken61 by PM, that I would leave him alone if he didn't attack me again. I kept my word, but he couldn't resist dumping on me some more. I do not miss his brand of hypocrisy. And I do not miss his copy-and-paste research one bit... especially considering that jOe was able to get him to admit that his actual experience and ownership of Damascus barreled guns was even thinner than Jagermeister's.

So happy to hear that you are impressed with internet pretenders. I am not. Thanks for the opportunity to clear up your inaccurate representation of things. Now go thaw out your brain.

He's probably the reason they're headed to our border with his promises of gold.

Let's pretend you're not internet bullies. No, that's not working.

Well, no decline in SxS in my little world. Just got back from a few hours in SxS heaven with CJO.

Had my hands on a lovely little Lefever E grade in 16 gauge, a matched pair of 100% engraved Perazzi SxS, a Watson 28 bore, an incredible 1920's Purdey hammer pigeon gun with cheek piece, a higher grade M21 in 20 gauge,and a early C grade Fox in the process of being beautifully restored (wood is spectacular) as well as a number of others that have slipped my overloaded mind. He even handed me a fugly Merkel O/U from the late 1990's in 16 gauge that was a dream to shoulder.

If these SxS are no longer of interest to most, I say good.....more for us!

Funny!

I see no bullies on here. That would be an admission that I feel I have been bullied. I have not. I am not a victim. I disagree with some on here at times, even often, and let them know it. But, I have never felt intimidated, or bullied, by them.

SRH

That's because you're not a phoney Stan...

Phoney people are always looking to holler bullie.

CJO is the man when it comes to shotguns...I sure miss seeing his work on here.