I opened my May/June ‘18 SSM this evening to read a nice article by Douglas Tate on the British gunmakers Boxall & Edmiston. The article focused on how the company navigated the convergence of technology and craft manufacturing. About 70% of manufacturing is done by computer and 30% by hand at the company. Somewhat reminiscent of Longthorne.

I went online to view the company website and...they have closed shop and Liquidators have been appointed to disburse company assets. Very ironic.

Boxall & Edmiston website

Tough business to "break into". Weren't they making the O/U barrel set out of a single billet of steel and boring the barrels themselves?

SRH

The gun trade has always been brutal. High end guns are pure luxury items and their commissioning is subject to a lot of factors like fashion, culture, economy status, socioeconomic status, etc. It is very difficult to compete with well established shops. That is one of the very good reasons some shops have a higher Brand Value rating (BV) than others.

I am always sorry for a failed shop. However, the odds were not in their favor.

DDA

Stan you are thinking of Longthorne, who make barrels in the fashion you describe and also famously run over them in a Range Rover, wipe them off, and shoot them. I wonder how long they will survive. Both have offerings in the sub-bespoke market of £25-35k.

Ironic that B&E went into liquidation and nearly all their workforce have been re-employed by the English 'Best' manufacturers. It possibly only goes to show that the wealthy still like to own the best , but are also loathe to invest in new technology or ideas.

They do say hindsight is always done with 50 50 vision. I was very surprised that this new company jumped in at the deep end of the gun price ranges rather than starting with a mid range box lock with less outside embellishment and looks. Better to have a reputation for very well made no frills sound Basic guns and build a business from there. Reputations are built and earned that has never changed.
Just my personal opinion though.

Thanks, Owen. Couldn't remember from the article I read about them.


damascus, I'd say there is a 50/50 chance that you meant 20-20 vision.

SRH

Rocketman has a point, buyers who value brand names are not going to be swayed by technology etc. Those who value technology, the true gun connoisseurs, most likely do not have the money. Therefore coming into the market with a tech heavy imitation "best" is probably not the way to do it.

Personally I see a new paradigm forming, (this is an opinion not gospel), and that is an OU along the Benelli 828 lines but more "real" with steel parts and easy stock adjustment, interchangeable ribs, and single double trigger options. In other words an OU that offers DIY serviceability and can win a share of the autoloader market at comparable prices.

Stan my thoughts where a little tongue in cheek so I was using the binoculars metaphor though I did intentionally leave the X out, maybe I should have put 10X10 to look back.

I have shot both the B&E as well as the Longthorne.

I met the principles of B&E at gun makers night in London, and then shot one of their guns at the WLSS. I shot the Longthorne in Scotland.

The Longthorne’s are definitely for people who embrace the latest and greatest, most modern technology. They clearly are for early adopters. Their barrel making technology, is a side benefit of their super precision aerospace work, so I think their factory probably has a greater base of existing orders for machine time than B&E did. And they are non-lead ready.

The B&E’s however, were more of an extension of the existing best gun marketplace, embracing modern technology and materials, and just enough hand labor to keep the cost down. Beautiful shot guns in all regards.

They were an extension of the existing marketplace with a few refinements. You won’t open, cock, and close, a more smoothly operating side by side ever. But, evidently that wasn’t enough to keep them in business. I wish them well, and as far as the migration of their employees, I think most of them came from Holland and Holland anyway. As I recall in my talks with them, the principles were the former manufacturing directors or lead manufacturing engineers, from Holland and Holland.

The gap between the very best 95% machine made shotguns, and the lowest level handmade shotguns, is so close, that excluding engraving, one is hard-pressed to identify the value difference.

I think it makes the remaining hand made shotguns more cherishable.

I am glad people keep trying their hands in this mature marketplace.

The fine double gun market is dying at a fairly rapid rate. Other than those few collectors who have the disposable or existing money to buy pieces which are nearer objets d'art than for shooting irons, the market for really high-dollar doubles is petering out. CSMC's A10 is deader than last year's bird nests, not that it was a really high dollar gun, just grossly overpriced, and discontinued the RBL series way later than it should have. I doubt they make over 5 or 6 Fox sxs's a year. Everything they are focusing on now is black guns under the Standard Mfg. label.

You still have the target gun market of Perazzi, Krieghoff, and Kolar where significant dollars are being spent, but for 99% of the world's double shooters, of which the sxs is probably near .5 %, the Beretta and Browning O/U's have it covered, with the other smaller players like Rizzini, CG, Blaser, etc. scrambling for crumbs.

Boxall & Edmiston, or any other Purdey/H&H wannabe, never had, or will have, a chance in this market going forward.
JR

I heard today that there's just one man there sorting out the paperwork and when he's done he'll turn out the light and lock the door behind him.
It's a shame but may be a sign of the times.

I think that this CNC quality work has a lot to do with it.
O.M

Of course it does.

No one looks inside of a shotgun.

I spoke with Edward King of ASI, and he described what I would term “experiential marketing”, as having become a big piece of shotgun sales.

That is, they coordinate a trip for you, a visit to the factory, where in you were measured, fit, pick out your wood, and then the machines make your bespoke shotgun for you. Customized, and delivered to you a short time later.
A fantasy vacation blended with the purchase of a new shotgun.

John Roberts is correct in that it is a dying market. I have seen many great changes in the make up of the buyers. My customer base is either in the mid fifties or, in the 60s years of age. I rarely seen buyers in the 40s. Now for the new buyers who are entering the gun field a great guns is priced at $2,000. Like a Beretta 686 or a an automatic. The newer generation seems to have less interest in fine or quality guns. Many of my customers are now in their 70s. Now, they tell me they are gun up or just can not do the trampping around like they could in their 50-60s.

The trend is to the black guns and defensive type handguns. I went to Barnes & Noble the other day and they have probably 30 different magazines on ARs, handguns, etc. Three magazine they would apply to us.

If fact I just got an email from Caesar Guerini hand they are not exhibiting at the shot show as it now tends toward the defensive type guns.

Many of my dealer friends say the best years were behind us, I believe that could be true.


John Boyd

John, I'm 31 and an avid classic double guy. But I'm probably the exception- the other guy I mostly shoot doubles with is 44. But what has surprised me is that hammer guns seem to be almost the same price as SLE's now! I'm searching for a hammer Purdey pigeon gun, and while browsing I saw a Pursey SLE game gun for $15,000- Purdey hammer game guns in the $9500-$13000 area! Is the hammer gun market going up or are SLE's getting cheaper?

True pigeon guns are not on every street corner. That's part of it. True external hammer pigeon guns are even rarer. As you know, claycrusher1900, I've been looking for one too, and have about reached the point that I am going to move on. If one exactly like I want becomes available I'll mortgage the back forty and buy it. If not, I won't pass up other desirable guns waiting for the perfect Reilly or Cashmore.

John, you absolutely hit the bullseye with your assessment of the doublegun market today. I will say this for CSMC. At least they are willing to cater to the market for black guns, but at the same time continue to be able to build bespoke Foxes, 21s, Christian Hunters, etc. Maybe that is a new business model.

SRH

A couple years ago, when Obama was in office and new Liberal Left Democrat gun restrictions were a serious threat, so-called black guns and assault style rifles were in greater demand, and therefore quite a bit more expensive than they are right now. Manufacturers ramped up production, and demand has dropped somewhat since Donald Trump became President. The Law of Supply and Demand has followed suit. Guns that cost $1000.00 or more are selling for $400.00 less today.

Once again, we are hearing that the demand for our side by side double barrel shotguns is falling like the proverbial rock. Supposedly, the only guys who are still buying them all have one foot in the grave. So please tell me this... if you can get your hands on some 10 or 15 or 20 year old GunLists or Shotgun News, why is the price on double shotguns generally lower than the current prices, even allowing for inflation???

Now, I realize that not everything has risen by the same amount. Parkers and Fox guns were already inflated and overheated 15 or 20 years ago. I avoided getting caught up in that mania, and concentrated mostly on Syracuse Lefevers, which were undervalued until recently. I did OK, but would have been better off investing in AR-15's or AK-47's. The same could be said about Muscle Cars and many other collectibles. An influx of British doubles has depressed prices on those guns somewhat. But in general, if the dire predictions we read here once again were true, shouldn't prices be much less than they were a decade ago? They're not... not even for most lowly 12 ga. field grade guns. I just wish there was some way to go back more than 90 days to look at completed sales on Gunbroker to put this myth to bed once and for all.

I am in Claycrusher's boat at 37. Upgrading as prices drop. I have been watching SLE's abroad and finally purchased one this year. Impossible to pass up when they are so cheap.

[quote=keith]Once again, we are hearing that the demand for our side by side double barrel shotguns is falling like the proverbial rock./quote]

The market for the really high dollar stuff, Keith. I'm talking $20-$30K and way up. There are enough enthusiasts like us here that will keep the $3-$5K market moving along for the next decade or so, but it's all trending downward in interest if not in price. These really big dealers who are trafficking in $25-$50K and way up from there, doubles are selling most of their products to the same multi-millionaires who will not have successors. It will reach critical mass at some point relatively soon and they are going to have inventory that they will have no customers to sell to. The past means nothing, we are rounding a bend in the river yet unseen. Jmo...
JR

John, I wouldn't presume to know or predict the future gun buying preferences of multi-millionaires or even billionaires who can drop $25- 50,000 on a shotgun as easily as you or I spend a thousand. In a world seemingly dominated by semi-autos, guys are spending record sums on collectible Colt revolvers and Winchester lever guns.

Personally, I think semi-custom firms like CSMC have been catering to a very small segment of the gun buying market. And it was only a matter of time before the demand for CNC built "Guns-as-Art", that would spend most or all of their time in a display case or safe, would decline.

Part of the appeal to vintage guns for many of us is the fact that they were built during a time when there was a great deal of hand labor involved. I recall reading that even a machine made gun like an original L.C. Smith field grade shotgun had over a month of hand labor involved in fitting, barreling, stocking, and assembly. Add in the enormous amount of skilled hand labor to produce a Damascus barrel for the same gun, and we are buying a lot of man hours of skilled labor for not a lot of money. My head tells me that a brand new CNC machined Turkish or Japanese (or American) double might be more reliable, but my heart wants the old original vintage gun. That's a reason so many guys willingly go underwater on restorations too. A CSMC Fox or Winchester reproduction isn't just competing with Turkish, Spanish or Italian guns that are much less expensive, but they are competing with collectible original Fox and Winchesters as well.

Automation, robotics, and CNC machining which eliminated expensive hand labor resulted in lower production costs and lower retail prices for many products. But that cost savings didn't really translate into any savings for gun buyers in the niche "Art Gun" or reproduction markets.

I still believe that if there was really a downward trend in interest for doubles, prices across the board would be dropping like a rock. I didn't even see any bargains coming out of closets during the Great Recession in 2008-2009. All we really see is some corrections where certain segments of the double gun market were overheated by people buying into a mania or a fad. I wish I had loaded up on Colt Pythons when a nice one could be had for well under a grand. But I won't be jumping in now. Here's an article about ten really hot collectibles that aren't so hot anymore:

https://www.thestreet.com/slideshow/1356...ue-and-why.html

Keith,
One thing that has seemed to change from the era of perhaps a decade or two ago, is the fact that there are dealers who have guns in inventory for a decade.
I’m guessing these are consignment guns, but, in the past, it seemed that eventually something had to give, and the guns were sold at a discount, or ended up being traded. They left inventory, somehow, and disappeared.
I have watched a few guns, at a few dealers, that have 8-10 years of time at those dealers. Same price as a decade ago.
I don’t believe you can look at the prices of those guns, and say to yourself, “prices are still high on these old guns” . They haven’t sold, and, aren’t going to sell, unless the price comes down.
I don’t begrudge the dealer wanting every penny he can get for a gun, but, I sometimes wonder what the hell these guys actually sell that pays to keep the door open?

Best,
Ted

We might have seen the downward trend for gun prices with the closing of Ivory Beads. Wonder how "Upscaled dealers like Steve Barnett, Kevin's of Thomasville, Fox Hill Gun Vault and Robin Hollow, amongst others, are faring with their sometimes high end pricing??

Anybody here what actually happened to old Herschel Chaddick- At one time, he and Jack Puglisi in Duluth MN had a lot of Parkers for sale. Where are they now-a-days??

Mr. Chaddick has passed away. Jack Puglisi has as well, but, his son still has the store in the old bank building. He is not the presence in the local gun shows that his Father was.

Best,
Ted

Hard to say Kevin’s of Thomasville
And downward trends in gun prices in the same sentence.

I am just going to comment on CNC vs hand labor. Assuming my more modern doubles have ample amounts of machine labor, my 1893 Purdey has the best metal finishing, metal to metal and wood to metal fit. I would have thought the labor savings would have allowed for better final finish work but not so

Ted, I agree that there are dealers who seem to be able to maintain an inventory of dramatically overpriced guns for a very long period of time. I even see some high priced dealers carting the same guns to multiple gun shows, for multiple years, and often wonder if they ever sell anything. I also wonder just how they make enough money to justify their time and table expenses. But many of those overpriced guns are not doubles.

I suppose they have some preset profit margin they desire, and might have simply bought these guns at inflated prices. I used to spend more time looking at Gunbroker before they managed to make the site slower and less user friendly. I was one of the guys who complained about having to waste time sifting through pages of overpriced guns with large reserves that are relisted for years on end. Naturally, we notice this with doubles because that is a major area of interest for many of us. But the same sucker fishing and endless relisting situation exists with many other types of guns as well.

One thing we can be sure of is that virtually every gun that is listed with no reserve will generate multiple bids, and sell for what is generally a realistic current market price... driven by competitive bidding in a large nationwide internet auction. This is how I advise many people to get a good general idea of what their guns are actually worth.... by comparing the same make, model, and condition, and actual completed sale prices. Sometimes there are other factors that may distort the hammer price, such as poor pictures, a poor seller reputation, or exceedingly high shipping charges. But my observations of vintage American double gun prices are based upon real world completed sales... now versus 10-20 years ago. I still don't see where the sky is falling. But even if I lose my ass in a declining double gun market, I can say I enjoyed owning and shooting my guns a lot more than some stock certificate that also went down the toilet in a recession or corporate bankruptcy.

Truth is, I'm a lot more concerned about losing money due to lower stock prices and much higher taxes if Liberal Democrats get back in power, than I am about my doubles losing value. And Liberal Democrats are a much bigger threat to all of our guns than falling values, rust, oil soaking, or using the wrong hinge pin grease. Let's get real here!

I find myself in agreement with Keith’s assessment that the sky is not falling.

I also agree with the question as to why prices have not depressed more on the lower end guns coming over from Europe.

I have long term reservations on the value of lower end gun, but believe mid range and above will hold on well.

Heirs with interests in fine doubles trump any concerns over future market value.
#2 son and I are heading to the club tomorrow. We'll be shooting a pair of Galazan Foxes.
Problem solved.

Many of the better gun dealers are now gone, retired, or had enough. Far less than years ago. How many new better grade gun dealers are entering the market? We have a few places that have just recently opened up. All black guns and machine guns.

PS: Ted, you are correct. Many of the high end gun dealers have mostly consignment guns.

John

Kevin's of Thomasville is kind of a special case. His brick and mortar store is located smack in the middle of the GA-FL quail plantation belt and he appeals to the very rich. His fine gun-room (s) are located on the top floor of his downtown store, accessed by a narrow winding street-front set of stairs. You have to ask downstairs to go up.

When I would be in town there for a hearing or something I would always try to make time to visit Kevin's. He has a huge consignment business as well as his own inventory.

I once noticed a nice looking gun in the racks and picked it up to inspect. The salesperson looked hopeful, likely because I was wearing my cleanest suit. Then I noticed that the gun was a Purdey and the price tag said 90K. I put it back in the rack very carefully...Geo

Geo's story about examining the $90,000 Purdey reminds me of the time I waltzed into a high dollar gun shop called London Guns in Santa Monica, California. I was in college, spending the summer working in California. I wasn't wearing a suit. It was worn, faded, cut off blue jeans, a Pink Floyd tee shirt, and running shoes.

The salesman was cordial, but I didn't get the impression he felt confident he'd be selling me any Purdeys or Hollands. I was just becoming interested in doubles at that time, and saw a lot of lovely shotguns. But I didn't know enough about them to really appreciate what I was seeing.

One of my closest friends went to England to visit his daughter a few years ago. He also went to Scotland while there. He wanted to visit gunshops, and did. He said the folks at Purdey and at Dickson were "out of the way nice", courteous and gracious. But, that the H & H shop was just the opposite. They sized him up as a non-buyer when he came in the door, and ignored him.

SRH

Once Louis Vuitton got involved, focus changed.
They are “Lifestyle” companies now.

It’s not like a car dealer where most prospects can be expected to buy within 30 days somewhere else if you can’t set the hook.

There is nowhere else for their products.

When you are ready to buy, you’ll be treated well, and they’ll take your order.

They really do understand a long selling cycle with aspirational buyers.

So why the 180 degree difference between the companies I mentioned? Or are you only referring to H & H? He was "treated well" by Purdey and Dickson, why not by H & H?

SRH

IDK
Last time I was in H&H It was a bit of a surprise to be greeted by such youthful representatives.
The other makers I visited had the requisite old guy that seemed as though he had been there since before the Great War.

But, the conversations were similar.

There’s a certain peculiarity in the selling cycle for items that have no constraints.
They can literally do anything, so the march to specifications is hard to get started on without a guide you are comfortable with, and willing to be led by.
And of course in the realm of self made men, the entire dynamic between gunmaker and patron can be complicated.
The representative could easily have been talking with a king the previous appointment.
To help provide a framework.

I can understand the complexities of speaking with a king one moment and a peon the next. Purdey's and Dickson's did too ............. and took steps to overcome it.

SRH

I’d like to know how Kevin prices his guns. He’s quite proud of them.

Stan, I went to H&H and Purdey in the same afternoon this past September. H&H was a smidgen cold at first, but not bad at all. I ended up getting invited to see and hold their private collection downstairs and spent 30 minutes educating the sales gentleman on the history of H&H and of the transition from m.l's to pinfires to center fires. He readily admitted he knew the current guns very well, but not as much on the history. It was an amazing visit! The folks at Purdey were extremely polite and friendly, but no offers to examine their collection were made lol. Of course, at H&H the guy's eyes opened wide when I mentioned I go duck hunting with a 1866 centerfire H. Holland! Both were very friendly and very enjoyable visits

Glad you had a good visit, CC. I had often wondered if my friend's experience was the norm, or if he just caught them on a bad day.

SRH

I've never had a bad experience travelling in Europe while visiting the whole gamut of gun stores. I said to my wife, Is it because we're old? She said, no, it's because we're polite.

Stan- The same thing is often said an out upscale car dealers.

In sales there is a gambit called “negging”, wherein the prospect comes to see themselves as unworthy, and consequently comes to want “it” 10x more.
I sometimes wonder if we do that to ourselves.

I am worthy of an Aston Martin DB12v
No negging required.

"If you can walk with Kings and Consorts, and not lose the common touch- If you care about things that matter, but not let them matter too much"--

True story- years ago, when you could buy Irish Sweepstakes tickets- a "sand-hog" hit it big- walked into a Cadillac showroom, where a distant relative of mine was Sales Mgr-- In his work Carhartt/Dickies/Red Wing attire, dirty and disheveled, but with the confirmed winning ticket tucked into the bib of his coveralls-
A rookie said-- "Watch me give this bum the old bum's rush- can't have him dirtying up the showroom, can we?" Grand-dad Hermann told the rookie to stay back, he would handle this situation. Long story short, Gramps. sold him a new Caddy coupe, and the next day, a bit cleaned up, he brought in his wife and bought her a new Caddy convertible- paid in cash- my Grandpa got a nice commission.

Never judge a book by its cover- words of wisdom indeed.

FWIW Fox,
Cadillac has nigh unlimited manufacturing abilities, and aren’t an exclusive brand.
Anyone can get all they can afford, dirt and all. At any time.
Their new SUV is beautiful.

I think that anecdote is purely an American imaginary tale that circles around endlessly.

Thanks for reminding me, ....Fox....

IF—

BY RUDYARD KIPLING

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

I must have been dreaming all the times I saw it happen to my dad.


___________________________
The good ol’ American way.
https://youtu.be/PTDWel_qcyc

It's NOT a "yarn" Oh Zapp-meister of the Clapper Rails- It happened at Pemberton Cadillac, in downtown Toledo, Ohio- in the mid- 1950's. The sandhog was working in the area of Lake Erie where the Cedar Point Park complex is now located- aprox. Sandusky area. Charlie Baither was the young "rookie" my Grandfather P.H. Waid "guided" through this event.

My grandfather died in Nov. 1968, while I was on active duty with the USMC- I must have been about 10-11 years old when he told it to me. I still have his 12 Gauge L.C. Smith, and a Stevens Single shot .22 he gave me on my 10th birthday-

Here's the story you might be thinking of-FWIW.. A Italian construction worker wins the Lottery- his pockets full of cash money, he walks into a fancy car dealer ship-and starts looking around-- The sales manager walks over, asks him if he wanted to buy a new car that day-- "Yeah, sure, I'm a buy-ah da new obe- How mucha dese yellow one costa"?? Well sir, that model is $27,500- how were you wanting to pay for it- we do have GMAC financing available!" Ok- but Ima gonna pay in cash- how much it costa den?"-- Oh, well, in that case, we'll give you a discount- just walk over to the cashier's window and tell Marie that you are a cash customer, and she'll figure it out for you."

So he walks over to the cashier's area, and there's Marie- a "doppenganger" for Sophia Loren-- low cut blouse and all- "'excusa me, but dat man say I getta discount for paying cash- what is dese discount anyway?" -- "Well, Sir, Marie replied, with a big smile, a discount is something we take off when you pay in cash. Capishe?''

Mama Mia- he says- so, yyou tella me how mucha you take offa for 27 tousand dollar?' "Well, Sir- she replied- would my earings get in your way???"

King, do you still think it is polite to post all of your anti-2nd Amendment, anti-gun, and anti-NRA rhetoric here on an American shotgun enthusiast's forum... along with your support for the most extreme anti-gun politicians such as Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton???

I don’t think Zapper meant any disrespect, Fox.

Glad you’re back.

Here ya go...


__________________________
Mister, the day the lottery I win I ain’t ever gonna ride in a used car again.
https://youtu.be/_zYf9Uw-6Ak

None taken, Lonesome roads-- My Uncle Herman, who lived in Louisville, was also a bit of a "raccoon-tuner" he even resembled W.C. Fields-- I was 10 when my Grandpa P. Herman Waid told me that story that happened while he was used car Sales Mgr. at Pemberton Cadillac in downtown Toledo--

Now my Uncle Herman left me his custom 21 ounce two-piece pool cue, and a pocket watch and a Morgan Silver Dollar- all of which I have yet today.

I’m sure there probably was some sort of class bias that people experienced back before the government got involved in eliminating it. Like before 1963 or something.
Fact is, no salesman keeps his seat very long disrespecting potential customers. That’s why they go through the elaborate qualifying rituals.

When the best are doing it you don’t even notice it.

Time is money
No reason to waste either.

People like to buy but not be sold.

You’ve probably noticed auto manufacturers all about your “buying experience” these days. Salesman doesn’t play, he don’t stay.

I guess lawyers can take solace in this life knowing salesmen will be at least one rung lower in Hell.


__________________________
And at least two above journalists. Hi, King!

I don't know anything about journalism or journalists now, lonesome. Speeding toward Orwellianism, everything we see and hear is "fake."I saw it on TV. I got out just in time. S'pose hockey's next? Sid a robot controlled by Dr. No under palm tree?

It may be apocryphal in US, CZ. I doubt it. A friend, a woman surgeon who served in the Polish military, paratrooper who could "kill with one hand," working here as a new Canadian at a Halifax hospital, wearing jeans on a Saturday morning, walked into a Suburu dealership, ready to buy. The salesman said she couldn't afford it and returned to his office. Benigna went across the harbour, bought a snazzier Suburu, and went back and told the snotty salesman his attitude cost him a nice commission.

And she’ll have been contacted by Subaru shortly thereafter for a post sale interview. If she told that story, the salesman gets axed.

Recognize that the manufacturer doesn’t specifically concern itself with that individual sale, a car was sold. They worry about developing brand loyalty.
For the next few sales.
I don’t believe this phenomenon is as common as other people believe. I think it mostly an urban myth.
It takes but a couple minutes to determine if a prospect can actually purchase the car. Socsec number and an electronic filing for approval.
Even the laziest of sales people isn’t going to forgo their commission in the face of an offer, (even if it’s the most minimal) if a person is standing there and says they want to buy.

Wonder how they say "Up-Yours" in Polish-- or maybe she gave him the universal "hand salute"--But, IMO, most "snobs" like that salesman, have inferiority complexes--

The way I look at it Fox, is that the industry is still selling more than 15 million of them a year, so somebody must be doing something right. I think people bring their Own inferiority complex into the sales room more frequently than it’s projected by the staff.

I bought a Buick Tour-x for my wife a couple mos ago, and they couldn’t do enough for me.
I had my truck dealer serviced this week and it was the same thing.

I am nobody. Just a guy they’ll never remember. I don’t know why they are so hell bent on kissing my arse. I don’t care for it.
But they must have customers that require it or it wouldn’t be so wide spread.

Hope you didn’t pay sticker price.

Robot hockey? No thanks, King.


___________________________
Fire sale at the trade deadline and hopefully a high draft pick for the Wings this year.

This could be a timing thing, do you roll out the 'sosec' up front or after the sales person ties up a little time in you? Maybe, over the phone when making a service appointment? I would keep first names only on the option list, at least until a decent deal looked doable.

Craig
If you want dealer arranged financing You know where that process starts.

It comforts me that all the DoubleGun shooting F150 drivers I see are financing their trucks for 7 years on avg. It means job security.

The NAIAS introduced the new Bronco, revitalized Ranger, Blazer, 8 levels of Silverado (to address every income and attitude level), and a new Cadillac suv.

We are peaking in the automotive world.

Huumm-guess I learned the car business from my late Grandpa Herman Waid- He sold used Cadillacs, after Packard "folded their tent" about mid-1950's-- He always had a clean used low mileage Caddy to drive for his personal use- nice fringe benefit.

He taught me to always buy a one-owner used car from a reputable dealer, who had all the service records, and keep it up and drive it until it became a high mileage vehicle, then trade again. He said: "Let the other buyer take that 30% first year depreciation"

My father dealt with an Oldsmobile dealer, and managed to get a used "Factory officials car- low mileage, and about 1/2 of sticker price-- His favorite saying was: "When the Olds plant manager's car gets a full ashtray, GM gives him another new one, and somebody with the proper connections gets the good deal.

My first car was a 1952 Chevy Bel-Air coupe- 3 on the tree tranny, 216 Blue Flame 6 --had 170,000 on the odometer, ran like a Rolex, belong to our family Doctor (he made his house calls with it) I paid $250 cash for it- drove it for 7 more years--

Now-a-days I drive Ford Ranger trucks (hear they are making a comeback0 I'm on my 5th one- all the previous Rangers went over 200,000 miles without a problem, given normal oil changes, serp belts, plugs, etc.. Even if I won the Powerball, I wouldn't go into a BMW dealership,pick one out after a test drive, and write a big check- ain't my style.. Foxie

People like what they like.
Driving old cars deprives you of all the advanced safety systems that have been brought to market.
As an older driver you may give some consideration to that.
Protect the other guy and yourself.

Huge advances have come to market in the safety arena.

For you or them? You a repo man?
Comforts #metoo. Love that 7% yield on F. Keep buyin’ them!

(I get kinda bored when the market is closed. It’s money that matters, do you hear what I say? It’s money that matters, in the USA.)




Not sure what you mean here. Sales wise? Automotive world may just be starting anew with electric and self driving.





Never fails. Blizzard always hits right when it starts.


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I (heart) Detroit. Wings too.

Should have got her one of these instead
https://youtu.be/cS06eprlj2I

On the 7 years, it says a few things.
One, is it represents consumer confidence, and their willingness to spend more money over a longer period of time.

It also means that the market expectation is that cars will last longer, in a much higher condition, than they have previously, so people are willing to pay for them over a longer period of time. So it represents an increase in value.

On peaking, well the market is only so big. So, there are peaks and valleys, just like the economic expansion can only go on for so long, so too for new car sales.

Until electrics can crack 300 miles range, they’ll be loser’s.
The Acura NSX hybrid I just drove had AWD and launch control. Fantastic!
And, it was a real useable car. That’s how to use batteries.

Good point-- I meant "My personal vehicle-- Not my wife's 2016 low Mileage Chrysler Grand Caravan-- back up TV screen that kicks in when in Reverse, Cruise, heated seats and steering wheel- Sirius radio, Lo-Jack-- Bought it for her this past summer (2018) with 21,000 miles- was a factory lease car-- and she loves the color- More safety features than you can "shake a stick at"

But for me, mainly driving downtown for coffee, or the banking details, and area farms for shooting/hunting trips the Ranger trucks are ideal- Mine is a 2009- 5 speed stick, bigger 4-cyl. engine- has, cruise, tilt wheel, A/C- seat belts- and I just had the factory recall done on the air bags--


I have been driving over 60 years- No tickets ever, no accidents or even a "fender bender" and I have 20/15 vision, so no "Prince Phillip" issues, albiet he has 20 years more "On the road", even if he drives on the wrong side of it at times.

My former hunting pals, all gone now- always got me to ask the permission from a farmer to hunt his lands-- Tell you what- two possible scenarios here, you pick: (1) You drive into his muddy driveway in an immaculate Rang Rover- dressed the like lads in the David Carrie shooting videos-- and knock on the door-- (2) You drive into his muddy driveway, well-used but still running Ford or Chevy Pick-up, muddy boots, well-worn Carhartt bibs, a "feed and seed" cap on your head-- and if you don't see anybody outside- first you holler- "Anybody Home here?"-- If you don't get a reply, you tap on the door, and step back a few paces, and chances are good the Lady of the house will answer your knock. Most farms I have permission on have cats and dogs in the area- when their dog comes over, you stand still, then maybe slowly kneel down, and speak to the animal in a low, calm voice--

90% of the farmers where I hunt and shoot have livestock- By doing this, you are showing that you care for animals- and are not going to shoot their prized livestock during the deer season.

My Granddad taught me the same lesson that Southern writer John Grisham detailed (tacitly) in his great novel: "Runaway Jury"--about how you dress to fit the "territory", whether a defense lawyer in a court of Law- or a honest guy asking for permission to hunt. RWTF

No one wants to admit they are getting old.
We all are.
That’s why the state puts hurdles in front of license renewals.
Accident avoidance works in the background and never gets distracted.

Prince Phillip is the poster child for pulling a license.

Or amnesia about 07 08 and 09.


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I’ll make money either way. I love this country.

Up in Buford Pusser country I heard about this fellow that had cows and would not let anyone deer hunt...

One day I saw him outside...pulled in and asked him could I deer hunt.
His reply was "I got cows and I don't let anyone hunt because I'm scared they might shoot one of my cows"

I quickly replied...."If I was wanting to shoot one of your cows I don't guess I'd need to stop and ask your permission"

"Your right you go ahead and hunt".

By completely random chance, I ended up in an old loaner truck on a longish trip. It had been 'rebuilt' with all the odds and ends under the hood deleted. I ended up under the thing a few times jiggling electric connectors, but it kept going. Finally, the alternator died, in a small town on a Sunday, but a block or two from a place I could buy a battery.

The charge on it got me about an hour and a half down the road, a road without decent cell reception, but known to have some decent hunting near it. Just one weekend, but boy am I glad I wasn't in a hybrid, and easily my best story on how to use a battery. That fancy hybrid may have been usable, but mostly around the country club or ski lodge, eh?

Well, younger brother is a mechanical engineering professor with patents in the fuel cell world. Basically batteries have reached their maximum potential. If we're to go electric in cars in massive amounts (and there is no free lunch - you have to charge the things so somebody somewhere has to generate the current), fuel cells probably will have to be taken a look at again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

Buy a bicycle, craigd. And keep away from my Acura. Scratch it I’ll go full on Joe Kocur on you.


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The Bruise Brothers. (Kocur/Probert)

When I said “useable”, I meant as a daily driver.
The Acura NSX works throughout it’s intended range.
Heat, air, electronics, heavy traffic, dirty air, like a regular production sedan. Of course tire life is short due to sticky soft rubber.

I loved the engine roar right behind me.

Exotic cars bear a great deal of similarity to handmade shotguns.
Some are for owning and looking at.

A little different in use-ability but the thing that bonded PA24 and I most was we both had de Tomaso Panteras. And man, when that thing was roaring 6 inches behind your head......A driving thrill like no other. Plus, there is a glass window to the engine bay so you can look at it if you want.

Definitely NOT a daily driver.

I did some work with Maybach.

The service tech said that he had to make certain that any of their cars would start at 40 below zero after sitting all night outside some oligarchs Moscow mistress’ apartment, as well as be cool when sitting all afternoon idling outside the tent of a Sheik’s mistress in the Arabian desert.

They are very well made cars that also work as intended.

Them are some low rent oligarchs and sheiks. You’d think they’d put them up in a fancy high rise hotel with indoor parking.


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Easy, easy money. Easy, easy chicks.
https://youtu.be/JRDgihVDEko

It was the 275 degree operating temperature range that caught my interest.
Imagine the tolerance range that has to be addressed.

At 300k you get 32? way electrically adjustable seating.
Cashmere carpet (meh) and a real burl walnut dash.

Hello Clapper Zapper, You would be more than welcome to visit our factory to see how much work goes into producing one of our guns and the level of investment required, next time you are visiting the UK.

I’d like that.
Your with Longthorne?

Maybe mid August.
Depends on the hatch somewhat.

Say Hello to Les, the diving, coffee roasting dude for me if you cross paths.
It’s a small world.

Awwwwww.....

Not surprising that there was a link between B&E and H&H. When I visited the H&H factory back in 2001, they were doing quite a bit of work with CNC machines.

Certainly will if we see him, yes I'm with Longthorne, hope to see you mid August