On Nov 14, 2018, at 3:46 PM, Milton Fxxxxxx <Milt@Fxxxxxxx.net> wrote:
Dear James,

As you suggested I am attaching a photo of the FAIR Iside SxS to make it easier to identify it. I purchased it new in box with all paperwork on 10/23/18 from xxxxxxxx.

Specs:

12g
30” barrels
Serial number 288755
Imported by IFG NA LLC, Amarillo, TX on the barrel
76mm, 3” chambers

Ammo: Herters Low recoil

IC choke tube in the right barrel
Mod choke tube in the left barrel
Both tight


I patterned the Iside at 16 yards on a steel pattern plate, 42” x 42” using white Lithium grease on the plate.
The right barrel printed true to aim. The IC pattern was centered both vertically and horizontally.
The left barrel with your modified choke tube printed true vertically however centered about 8” to the left of center.

I love the handling characteristics of the gun and I love that I can change choke tubes to fit the situation since I shoot mostly older SxS guns.

I would appreciate your help in resolving this issue.

Mr. Fxxxxxxx,

We sent your info and pics to FAIR and they informed us that the pattern produced by your gun is within factory specs.
Sent from my iPhone

This should give you an idea how they stand behind their quality. This is a brand new in box gun. It would be funny if it was not so sad.

I haven't shot my Iside .410 yet. First chance, it will be shot on the pattern plate to check regulation. This is always my biggest fear in buying S x S guns. It is also a problem with O/Us, but not as often it seems.

FWIW, 8" is the allowance that Beretta cites for regulation as well. I think it is ridiculous, myself, that any gun manufacturer will allow that much error in building. Eight inches at 16 yards is awful.

Sorry you had this misfortune, Milt. I know how disappointing it is.

SRH

Edit: Just had a thought , Milt. Try all the other choke tubes in the left barrel to see if maybe, by chance, it is a bad tube that is causing this. If the others also print way left, you'll know for certain it's the barrels.

Builder,
Just a thought, but could the choke tube be at fault. I would conform it by trying another choke tube.
Karl

Milt,
take a straight-edge and lay it along the forward most portion of the left barrel where the tube is of constant diameter. You should be able to see if it is straight or bowed inward along its length. If straight, the issue is the boring of the threads for the choke tubes.

If so what is the solution ?

None.

I'd try another choke tube also but I'm betting it won't solve the problem.

You'd think they'd want to see the gun and if it's off they should replace the barrels.

Eccentric choke tubes can be made to correct this type of problem but at a fairly steep unnecessary cost on a new gun. You don’t expect the need to fix things on a new gun like chokes bored wrong or barrels not regulated well.

Barrel regulation isn't included in the price of junk guns.

I might add that all the vintage English SxS's that I've owned had perfectly regulated barrels.

When aimed like a rifle off a rest all the O/U'rs I've patterned all shot at least a 1/2 pattern low with the bottom barrel at 40 yards...a few worse.

The two 1960 vintage Winchester 101's I own a 12 and a 20 are spot on at 40 yards.

When Beretta or Browning is confronted about it you hear the same song and dance as you heard.

Manufacturers know that very few people that will go to the length of testing point of impact on their guns.

I've heard all that but it's never worked out in real life for me....in my experience it's just been a waste of money.

Best to sell and take a loss...or shoot it and forget about it.

Personally, I do not believe that straight edge bit is totally reliable. Many doubles, particularly relatively lightweight ones have their OD's increased in the choke area so they are a bit "Swamped". Also even if proved to be perfectly straight there is still the matter of did they get set to the absolutely correct convergence, which of course can vary a bit according to load used.

If the choke threads in the barrel are off, someone like Mike Orlen or Briley could probably rebore concentrically and install a permanent choke sleeve in that barrel. Not ideal, but a fix.

I'd start by reversing the two current tubes, left to right.

It is usually not that hard to move the pattern 8" at 40 yds, but moving it 8" at 16 yds will be a challenge. Since it looks like you are stuck with the gun, I would sure give it a try. I have successfully moved the POI on several sxs guns, so I know it can be done. I had Brileys make eccentric chokes for one gun, and they definitely moved the pattern, but they moved it way too far. A guy on another forum told me how to file it to move the pattern, and I would rather do that than to buy eccentric chokes.

Filing the choke utilizes the same principle as eccentric chokes. The idea is that a change at the very end of the barrel can cause the wad to go in a slightly different direction. It's the same idea as damage to the muzzle of a rifle can change where it shoots. In a shotgun, this will only work if you use shells with a plastic wad, but most of us do that anyway.

Fwiw, here is an explanation of how to file a choke and move the POI:

Put your barrels in a vice and face the muzzle end. Your left barrel is shooting to the left, so you want to move the POI to the right. You do that by filing the inside of the barrel right at the muzzle.

Imagine the image of a clock placed over the muzzle. The left barrel is shooting to 3 o'clock now, so you want to file it at 9 o'clock. I use a round chainsaw file, and start by making 4 strokes at 9 o'clock. Hold the file at a 45 degree angle and you will be removing metal from only the inside edge of the barrel. Next, make 3 strokes at 10 o'clock and 3 at 8 o'clock. Then make 2 strokes at 11 and 7, and feather it to 12 and 6.

What you want to do is to create a chamfer that is deepest at the direction you want the pattern to go, which is 9 o'clock in this case, and then slopes to no chamfer at 12 and 6. After making the initial cuts, fire a test shot and see if the pattern moved. If it didn't move far enough, file again. Keep filing and keep shooting until it centers.

You will probably have to get the choke to a knife edge at 9 to move the pattern as much as you need, and even that may not be enough. It's good that your gun uses choke tubes. If you don't want to risk one of the tubes that came with the gun, you can buy a tube for about $20 and that will be all you are risking. This procedure will degrade the pattern to some extent. If you want modified performance, start with a full choke tube.

Good luck with it.

I've done what Coosa suggested and it worked. It is however pretty noticeable if you look in the muzzle...Geo

Thanks for the tip coosa.

Thank you Stan. I hope your .410 is perfect. 16" at 32 yards is not slightly off! How can they sleep at night.

I had the IC and mod choke tubes in and had forgotten to take others. My shooting partners were waiting for me so I was a bit rushed and did not think of switching tubes. I just thought "darn, I should have brought the other tubes".

Before I do anything I will pattern it again with a different tubes.

Chuck, thanks. The sides are straight so it seems it is either the threads are off center or (I hope) something is wrong with the choke tube.

It would seem to me that bad press costs more than standing behind your quality control and fixing the problem. I guess they don't think so. think about that when you buy.

I agree. You should not have to fix a new gun. A used one I can understand. You pay less and in many cases you take your chances.

It's pretty reliable if you check the other barrel and it is straight. If it is swamped, then of course the other should be, too.



Milt, Just from personal experience, be diligent to hold the gun with the same amount of "grip" when you shoot each barrel. Do everything exactly the same. Guns are much more susceptible to how we grip them, in where they print, than many realize. I found this out with a lightweight double in the past. If I gripped it too tightly it cross fired. If I gripped it normally, it was perfectly regulated. So, if I had gripped it tightly with one barrel and looser with the other barrel, I would have gotten results similar to yours.

I believe that the lighter the gun the more susceptible it is to this variation in grip. Sometimes we get "jacked up" when patterning, and try to grip it too tightly in order to "aim" it closer.

Good luck, SRH

Stan'
Note that I said it was "Not Totally Reliable". It is not an absolute guarantee that if the barrel is straight it will hit the right place. I believe your illustration of changing the grip bears that out. You did not change the straightness of the barrels as you changed the grip, only the manner in which it recoiled. Likewise, the barrels can be perfectly straight but if the convergence is off a bit the barrels will not shoot to the same point of impact. Also, we have no guarantee the bores & the OD are absolutely concentric, it's where the bores point that is the important point.

Did you buy it from a dealer or direct through the Italian Firearms Group? I have one on order through Quality Arms and I’m wondering if he will go to bat for me if I encounter a like situation.

Dave,
NIB at an auction. No dealer to help. I don't think it would matter unless he was a big dealer.

Joe, your points are well taken. Thank you.

Both barrels are very straight with no choke bulge. Whether it is the choke tube threads, barrel convergence or a poorly formed choke tube is unknown by me at this point. The weather, the holiday coming and the fact that I live in NJ with the closest patterning board I know of about two hours from here ( a sporting clay club I shoot at in Pennsylvania) makes this difficult and time consuming.

I usually shoot Herters Low Recoil shells so that is what I pattern with. One ounce at 1060fps. As an aside, they work very well even at far targets.

Coosa, thank you for reminding me about your method. Six months ago you were kind enough to take the time to explain how to do it and although I have not tried it yet I understand how to do it and after your patient explanation I also understand how it works. I have no problem trying it on a choke tube however I am concerned they are not thick enough to accomplish the goal.

Stan, I vaguely recall your discussing this in the past when you were patterning a .410. Maybe I imagined it? Not sure.
I will pay attention and make sure I do everything the same. Wouldn't it be nice that this is the fix. This is a 6lb 4 oz straight grip gun perfect for open field hunting. Long barrels but fast and light. It is the middle priced one with laser engraving and no case color.

The upland season is over for me but I am excited to use it in the field. It will have to wait for next year for that but there are a few clays waiting for it if I can work this out.

As I was talking to Bazil Slaughter (FAIR dealer) about the possibility of ordering a FAIR gun, I asked him about the warranty, and the possibility of a my receiving a gun that was not regulated. He assured me he would work with me to help resolve any issues I might encounter with a new FAIR gun.

I sincerely hope I don't need to find out.

SRH

Agreed, Miller. But, if one barrel is straight and the offending barrel is not, by a straight edge, well..... that's a good place to begin looking.

Convergence, and the lack or overabundance of it, is the biggest culprit in non-regulated S x S guns where the error is horizontal, IMO. Not the straightness of the barrels, nor the concentricity of the bores to the O.D. of the barrels. Again, IMO.

SRH

I wish you barrels that point where they are supposed to Stan! I think the odds are in your favor. I hope that mine is an oddity.

My guess at this point with absolutely no real evidence would be slightly off center choke threads. Hopefully I can find out what really is wrong and and remedy it.

The advice and concern here is much appreciated.

Milt, I hope you get it straightened out. Sounds like a perfect field gun and good rooster medicine. I have a 30" 16 gauge on order and based on your gun's weight mine should also be light. Even if mine is well regulated I still might not hit a damned thing with it!

Years back, my gunsmith hunting partner was working with his neighbor--a trap shooter--to move the pattern on his gun. Don't know whether it involved filing. However . . . if you file a gun that's threaded for choke tubes, doesn't that mess up the threads and make it impossible to put the tube back in? Or are you talking about filing the tube?

Builder, I'm hoping your problem is one of a bad tube. That makes the solution a whole lot cheaper and easier. Assuming you don't have any recourse from FAIR.

And they let you own a gun ?

Larry, filing the tube however I am concerned that the choke tube is too thin to have any effect.

FAIR will not stand behind their poor quality control. There are several members here and in the 16g. society purchasing or considering a purchase for the FAIR Iside. I wish them well.

Maybe you are looking at the wrong end of the gun.
A 1/4" more cast might give you what you want.

Unless you always sight down your ribs, and stack beads and what-not.
I just point mine.

A little more cast would be an easy fix.

Just shoot it and if you miss you'll have a good excuse.

A choke tube that is too thin would indeed be a big problem. You would need to file a lot, so it won't work for you if you don't have enough metal. The cheap flush mount Carlson chokes that I have tried had enough metal to make a significant difference, but I don't know if they make one to fit your gun.

Filing the choke, or rather the choke tube, is a last resort type thing to try to make an otherwise useless gun at least somewhat usable. But maybe it's usable as is; just shoot only right to left targets with the left barrel and you will have a built in lead.

I would not worry much about regulation patterns without a very long run testing under actual target conditions.

Stand behind a trap throwing dead straight easy rising targets you are likely to break 15-20 yards out. Depending on the choke close enough to inkball the birds. Shoot 50 out of each barrel, hitting if possable all 100 targets.

Then reflect on targets Break, were they solid or was there a bias one side of the bird. You may find the gun does what it’s suposed to do just fine .

Boats

Builder, I was curious as to the thickness of the choke tubes I've worked with, so I dug them out, measured them, and made a picture of a couple:



Sorry that it's not a better pic, but my phone camera is not ideal for close-ups. The tube on the right is a Brileys tube they made for one of my guns. It is marked to move the pattern 5", though as I remember it moved my turkey load further than that. I measured it with calipers to be .044 on the wide side and .030 on the narrow side. That second measurement is something of a guess because it is dependent on how far I slide the caliper in; it gets thicker towards the base of the tube.

The tube on the left is a Carlson's .575 turkey choke. It measured .050 originally, but I have taken it down to .040 on the side I filed. The gun was off by 8" at 40 yds with my turkey loads, and this much filing was required to center it. I lost about 20% of the pattern density inside a 10" circle at 40 with this much filing. It was a very usable gun with this tube, but I wasn't satisfied losing 20% and I eventually set it up differently and no longer use either of these tubes.

One thing that I have found in filing is that it takes less of it to move a heavy turkey load than it does a field load. I'm not sure why that is, but it happens consistently. If you take a file to one, you will be trying to make it center one load. It probably won't center other loads that have different recoil.

Hmm. He has one barrel (or one barrel with one choke tube) that's right on as it is. 1/4" cast MIGHT correct the other barrel . . . but it would affect BOTH barrels . . . moving the one that's now OK off target.

I doubt having his patterns 4" different between sides would make any difference whatsoever.
Obviously well within the factories specifications, and no one would ever notice when he sells the gun.

I’m always in favor of alterations which can easily be reversed. I’d buy an extra choke tube and alter it .003-.005 on one side. Pattern it then take more until you had what you need. You would of course need to mark the tube so it went into your gun the exact same way every time and was not over tightened or your alterations would change you correction in a different area depending on where it ended up when screwed in. Like 9:00 one time and 11:00 or 7:00 which would drive your results batty.

For that matter start switching tubes and checking them all to see where the hit. It might just be the he modified or could just be the one barrel. Rule out simple to things first. Bad tubes, over tightened, out of round. That type thing.

Some years ago a friend bought a used Weatherby 20 gauge o/u. He found that he could not hit targets consistently with the gun and off to the pattern board we went. His first shot was far left as was the second. I told him that he was jerking the gun and that was the cause of the left leaning pattern. He shot again with the same result and then said “you try it”. When I shot the gun the pattern was even further to the left. He ended up sending the gun to Weatherby and after several months of waiting it was returned, appropriately regulated. I was amazed at the quality of service he received on a relatively inexpensive used gun.

jlb

That's because Wheatherby has a name and a reputation to uphold.

F.A.I.R is a corporation....a conglomerate of people that don't give a damn.

I realize I am coming into this discussion late, but I think my experience might be relative. At one time I wanted to open the fixed choke on my inexpensive single shot Savage 20 break open. So I called Brownells and tried to order a choke reamer. The salesman on the phone talked me out of it saying I could accomplish the same thing with a half inch dowel rod wrapped in wet or dry sandpaper. Took me a while and quite a few trial shots but I got it where I wanted it. Then my buddy, who has similar Savage told me his gun shoot the pattern to right of center, about 8 to 10 inches at 15 yards. Once again the dowel rod and sand paper were employed, only to the left side of the muzzle only. After a few trial and error sand-and-shoot sessions, we were able to move the left edge of the pattern.

Luckily for us both, those inexpensive guns do not have chrome lined bores.

Mergus

OK, I somehow seem forced to respond, but do NOT recommend what I am about to say.

When living in Alaska I had a shooting and hunting friend who really loved German Guns. He was a fanatic about patterning and could not keep his hands off of a muzzle to "work" on.

He used a Dremel tool on many of his nice guns. The patterns did change, but I think some of his mistakes would shoot an "L" shaped pattern. The moral is, you can drastically change the pattern and impact center by screwing with the muzzle.

It would be interesting to know at what range the patterns converge.

If this shotgun had shot 4" right and 4" left, there never would have been any discussion.
What if the left barrel is actually the "true" one?

Milt,
I say this with utmost respect, but, you need to set down with some accurate measuring tools, all the chokes for the gun, and enough paper and a few different loads to find out what is happening with POI.
You have almost admitted you really haven’t done enough work with the limits on your time to find out exactly what the problem is. It could be one of several things, or, a few things combined.
I’d be willing to bet that as a choke tube gun, you can find out how to make it shoot better for you. It might just be a bad tube, or, a bad installation of that tube. I have a few guns that don’t pattern certain loads well. I have had more problems with 20 gauge guns and loads than any others. But, one of my 20s might throw the best patterns of all my guns.
I think you are still a little ways off from declaring the gun or it’s builders “no good”.
You have some homework to do. It might also involve a good barrel man.
I wish you the best of luck.

Best,
Ted

Jon,
Based on my little experience with moving the pattern with muzzle work, I don't think .003-.005 would make a notable difference in this case. My thought is some number like .015-.025" is more likely required for this situation.

CZ,
I am sure I can adjust the stock however 4" at 16 yards is not OK in my book. As Stan says, it needs to shoot exactly where I am looking. No matter how you shake it, the barrels are *" apart at 16 yards. I tried 35 yards and it did seem to be further however I needed tighter chokes to make sense of it. I had left them home.

Daryl,
It uses Vernona LX chokes and I need to see if I can find them. I have a Rizzini O/U with the same choke tubes however the O/U uses extended chokes. If Coosa's method works then there is plenty of thickness to bevel but I would wind up with an odd looking gun. On the other hand it extends the barrels to almost 32".

I have a Win 1200 with briley thinwalls..... mod lead and full steel shoot dead on, full lead shoots everything over a foot low at 40......

Ted,
Thank you for the way you handled the wording of your response. I agree with you about the time I must put into deciding how or if I adjust the gun.

So far I know the barrels are printing at 16 yards 8" apart. I know I used IC/mod choke tubes. I know I can adjust the stock to shoot 4" either side of center.

I doubt it is the choke tube but I have extended tubes from another gun that I know are good and will try that. There is a Black Friday shoot at the club that has the patterning board so I can check that and try Coosa's method if necessary.

Briley and Carlson do not have flush replacement tubes, only extended. I have not checked trulock yet but I know they have extended tubes.

I spoke to Briley and I can send the barrel with the pattern at 30 yards and they will give me an eccentric tube and cut it flush for $125 each plus shipping. That seems like a good way to do it if they shoot to the right place when I am done. They do it mathematically, not by patterning.

I just got off the phone with Dean from Skeets gun shop and he says it is common to find choke tubes that are way off and try other tubes before going any further.

At least it will be in the mid thirties Friday.

Builder, 2 friends have the FAIR Iside in 28g. They shoot here often. Their scores have gone down since using the new guns. Maybe they have bbl regulation issues too? I just tell them that's what happens when you shoot Eurotrash!!

Well, it certainly is not a LeFever but it is a lot lighter!

So the weather wasn't so bad to day and I patterned the Iside with the extended choke from my other gun. I used IC (rt. barrel) and LM (left barrel) and found they shot exactly where the original flush chokes shot. The advantage to these are the knurled fronts are substantially thicker than a flush choke and it doesn't hurt to add an inch and a half in length to the barrels. It looks a bit funny but at least they are the black ones so unless you look close it is hard to tell.

I used Coosa's method and in half an hour or less the left barrel printed on the money. What a relief!

Thank you all for all your suggestions and encouragement. I must admit I was surprised that it worked. The first filing moved the pattern right a bit but it was more like extending the pattern and the new area was sparse. The second filing moved the whole pattern maybe 6 inches right which fortunately was exactly what I needed. It was also a round pattern again. I should have taken before and after pics. We were high fiving!

Congrats on getting it to shoot right!

Good deal, Builder!

Well done, Milt. Now you can shoot it with confidence. In the prior condition you could not have, and it would have cost you birds and cripples.

SRH

Milt,
Congrats, some work definitely payed off to getting the gun to where it needs to be for you.
Turd in the punch bowl time. You will need to pattern ALL the loads you anticipate using in the gun to find out where they print. It would be nice to print a load or two and assume they all go to the same place.

Don’t bother asking me how I know this.

Good luck with the “repaired” gun.

Best,
Ted

Ted, It is very light gun at 6lbs 4 oz. so it is likely I will shoot only Herter's Low recoil loads for sporting clays. I have a lot of them and I don't see any difference in my scores with faster or heavier loads. I hope Cabelas keeps offering them on sale. When next fall comes and I am thinking upland game it will be time to try other loads and maybe other choke tubes.

I have plenty of guns to choose from but for now I am still excited at the thought of shooting and hunting with this gun. I am hoping for a mild winter.

What I cannot accept is the poor quality control nor the way Fair brushed me aside and would not stand behind the gun. I hope others have a better experience but after hearing Mike of the Mountain's experience it sounds like it may be more prevalent than I would have thought. I assumed I was just unlucky to get a new FAIR Iside that patterned poorly.

Whew! It appears I dodged the bullet this time. I took my new Iside .410 out for the first firing awhile ago. I won't bore you with a lot of the minutia, but I shot four different choke tubes in it, switching them from barrel to barrel, at my pattern plate. I used 1/2 ounce and 3/4 ounce loads in each barrel. I shot mostly at 20 yards, then a few at 16 yards. Every choke tube and every different load in the rt. barrel printed a perfect 60/40 high pattern. Likewise, all tubes and all loads printed a tiny bit right out of the left barrel. Every shot confirmed the previous results, with no variations.

Even though the left barrel is not perfectly regulated, it is very, very close. As I have said before, I won't own a gun that doesn't shoot where I look, with both barrels, and I will eventually hone a couple of the choke tubes to perfect regulation for the left barrel. It is plenty close enough for hunting or clays, but I just have to know it is exactly right, for my confidence in shooting the gun. Plenty of time for that later.

Great triggers, strong ejectors. So far, I'm favorably impressed, with no evident warts.

SRH

Good news! I am happy to hear this. It has been in the back of my mind that you and Dave Erickson have one and I was hoping you did not have similar problems to mine.

Mine is supposed to arrive in December. Fingers crossed!

52 degrees here today so my wife and I went to a sporting clays place. I was a little slow getting started however by the fifth station I couldn't miss with it. I missed maybe five targets from station six to 21. Two stations were not operating. The gun is awesome for me at least it was today. For the first time my wife decided she wanted to try a SxS and she loved it too. She normally shoots a Beretta A400. She did great with it and its two triggers. Life is good.

I wonder if the extra length and weight of the extended choke tubes had anything to do with it.

Only the best of the holiday season to you all!

Well that's good news, Milt! I know you feel better about it all now. Sometimes, as my grandaddy used to say, a bad start makes for a good finish. Seems to be the case here. Some think that extended chokes in a S x S look as bad as death eating a cracker, but you got the gun shooting where it needs to, and that's a good thing. I doubt the weight of the extended tubes had anything to do with your shooting the gun well. More likely the confidence you have in knowing it is shooting exactly where it should helped your shooting.

SRH

Thanks Stan. I am sure you are right and I probably will not shoot it that well ever again but it was a lot of fun. I have to remember "as bad as death eating a cracker"

Best to you,
Milt

Dave Erickson

Yes, you do have a Fair gun on order with me. I believe in the Fair line of shotguns. I have had great luck with them and all my customers have been pleased. I have one client who purchased several over a two month period. He liked the guns so much that he purchased some other gauges in the following month.

John Boyd

John, thanks! I appreciated the phone call today.

John, facts are facts. Sorry if it affected you.

Dave, I am sure it will be fine.

It was just a characteristic to investigate. Investigation of mechanical devices is a series of probes based on past experiences. My experience with actually regulating barrels and then checking other guns which the POI issues has revealed some barrrels that were bowed on the outside. I've found wavy ODs on barrels but bores being crooked are constrained by the limits of wall thickness. Belled muzzles for screw chokes are readily apparent. The point of checking the straightness of the barrel is to take you to the next thing to check...convergence. If the barrels are bowed, measuring convergence along the barrels can/will be misleading. High production sxs barrels are likely assembled in fixturing. If they are, it's less likely the convergence is off. If they are wired together for soldering in the traditional way, by eyeball and measuring, bowed barrels are more possible. One barrel shooting on POA and the other shooting off POA is indicative of an individual barrel issue (i.e. crooked choke, bow, etc), not a purely convergence issue

Chuck, old time m/l rifle barrel makers would check for straightness with a bow and a string of black cat-gut. With the breech plug out, of course, the string would be passed through the bore end to end, then attached to the bow which would stretch it tight. Then, looking through the bore towards a light source the string could be placed alongside the bore as it was rotated, revealing any lack of straightness. Barrel would be bent until the string revealed a truly straight bore.

I'm sure this method required somewhat of a learning curve, but it seems to me it could be easily employed to check for bore straightness. I've always looked at the concentric circles of reflected light, but I admit it's got to be off pretty bad for that to work, for me.

Best, SRH

Stan,
These shotguns have a lot of eyeball engineering. Nothing wrong with that if the eyeballs are good.

I bent the barrels on a pricey gun a couple months ago based on eyeball engineering, to correct a high POI. Actually, I more "straightened" them than "bent" them. They had a slight bow upward, and I took it out. It's that Italian 410 I'm refinishing. I didn't want to sink any cosmetic work into it until I got it to shoot where I pointed it. It's all better now, but I'm sure there are guys here that would have a heart attack if they saw what I did.

I was touring a heat treater for Ford and Chrysler, and I watched a couple teenager's straightening axles after induction hardening.

They just had a couple V-blocks and an arbor press. All by hand.
Locate the high spot, push it down with the press some amount to account for rebound, and move them on.

I'm confident Chuck would have had Fords axles spinning truer (sp?) than they ever had before.

Friend of mine saw an old double-gunsmith in Savannah do that, Chuck, by swinging the barrel set overhead and downward, like a sledge hammer, onto a couple bags of lead shot. He let inertia bend them until they looked like he wanted.

CZ, I straighten shafts for machinery on the farm often using my 20 ton hydraulic press. I know what you mean by "rebound" exactly. I once did a back axle for an employee's high performance four-wheeler. Got it so true by eyeballing it that he couldn't even feel it anymore at 70 mph.

SRH

A practiced eye can detect bends in a tube by looking at a straight line with a backlight, but not overly bright. Many old-time shotgun barrel men reportedly used a shop window by looking at the cross member which divided the panes.
I have not straightened a barrel by this method, but have tried it & can readily see how it works. In my machine shop days, I bent quite a few parts using the arbor press method. You always have to go a bit beyond what you want to allow for Springback.

I certainly did not mean to imply that checking for straightness was a Bad Idea, just that there are also other factors involved, so proving the barrel to be straight is not an absolute guarantee it will hit where desired.

Also over the years, I have seen quite a few doubles, particularly lighter ones, which had the barrel OD enlarged a bit at the muzzle to strengthen the choke area. This gives them a bit of a swamped effect. Looking at them with a straight edge might cause one to think they were bent, when in fact they might not be. Certainly each & every factor has to be looked at.

I should have shot a picture of the 410 Ferlib barrrels in their full over-bend, in this case on a 8 ft hydraulic Cincinnati pressbrake. But I was pretty puckered up myself. It's amazing the springback I got from these barrels. I used my friend's employee pressbrake operator and we used the machine's stop to limit the bend while the barrels were supported by wood blocks on the ends and a more pliable material in the middle where the upper ram applied force. We must have applied over-bending force at least 20 times, checking with a straight edge each time, to get the barrels straight.

Had a great uncle fall while quail hunting. Bent his A5 barrel. You could see it looking down the side or through the bore. Another old gunsmith set a couple bags of shot on the bench and he hit the barrel over them several times, checking them by sight until he was satisfied. Then had my great uncle shoot the end of a tin can at about 15 yards. Went back and whacked it again over the shot bags and told him to shoot it. Never had any problem with it again. Gunsmith said A5 barrels were easy to bend by accident and easy to straighten.

Same thing with the 20ga Rem Model 31 I started out with. Mom fell in a gully bird hunting and bent it. Country gun trader stuck it in the crotch of an Oak tree and bent it back straight...Geo

What does bending SxS barrels do to solder joints?

"John, facts are facts. Sorry if it affected you."

No affect at all


John

Rob, I only have experience bending 2 sets. No issues. The solder is very soft and mallable. If the solder joints were marginal or already loose, I would expect trouble.

Thanks Chuck. I would think solder could get brittle with age, probably not prudent to try on a vintage gun.

Rob, actually the first set i straightened was a damarcus set that looked like it had been slammed in a car door. It had to beat least 1900 or older. I dont think solder mechanical properties change much if at all in 100 years.

I bent a set of Ithaca Flues barrels that shot way low. I put them on blocks of wood at the ends and bounced my weight on them with one foot. It took quite a bit to set the bend. They kept springing back but I got them bent and problem solved. It is very hard to detect the bend. It doesn't take much to move the pattern. And no harm to the solder joints.

I will say that I usually wouldn't resort to such crude methods but the Flues came in a box lot from a farm auction. My father's paid six dollars for the lot.

If you mount the gun and you see no rib but you see the front bead and it fires 10" high of point of aim what do you do? If you bend the barrels down would the front bead drop below the horizon? Same thing if you lower the comb. I am confused. What to do besides selling it? It happens to be a single barrel so no worries about solder.

I've fixed that situation, Milt, by replacing the front bead with a bigger( taller) one. Someone on here suggested that about a year ago, and I tried it. It worked like a charm! Even though we don't look at the bead when shooting, it is our reference point in our peripheral vision. It is well within our field of view.

I wouldn't expect that to lower it 10", though. Seems like mine came down about 4-5", which was enough for me on that particular gun. I've never had a gun that shot high when I couldn't see any rib. My problem, when they shoot high, is usually that they are stocked without enough drop for me, and I see way too much rib.

SRH

That was me with my Ithaca 37 that I bought maybe ten years ago. Kutter suggested the fix and it worked moving the pattern for me down 4" or so. I always read what he has to say.

This gun is a friends gun and it is also a modle 37. It has a vent rib(mine is plain not that it should matter) and 30" barrels also. He patterned it when I fixed the FAIR Iside. We were shocked. When you look down the gun all you see is a bead.

I will start with a large bead. Do you recall which one you bought? Maybe it is larger than the one I bought. I found it difficult finding large beads.

I don't remember the dealer, but I went on eBay and did a search. You will find a guy that has all different sizes and thread pitches. He is who I ordered from. Very low prices and very fast service. I think I have bought from him twice. If you want to wait I will look in my shop tomorrow and see if I still have one in the package. Maybe his name will be on it. But, in lieu of that, I will go eBay now and see if I can find which one it was. If I do, I'll post a link here for you.

SRH

Ok, all his ads look like this one, Milt. Just scroll through them until you find the size you want.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Brass-Shotgun-Front-Bead-Sight-3-56-130/152778288687?hash=item23924bae2f:g:uNMAAOSwH4NZg2Pi:rk:2:pf:0

Best, SRH

Well, it won't link for some reason. Copy and paste this web addy and it should come up.
anyway, it's "qualitygun, in Redding, CA".

I tried highlighting the link as if to copy but when you right click to copy next line below copy is a GoTo "link", just click it & comes right up without having to copy & paste it in the HTTP; line.

Thanks Stan. Working on it.

If I remember correctly it was the .175" dia. bead that I got. After I installed it I rubbed a little OxphoBlue on it and it "aged" it nicely.

SRH