The .410 hunting thread got me thinking about how we try to make one bore or gauge do what the one above it does. Like a 3" 20 trying to do what a 2 3/4" 12 can easily do. Or a 3" .410 doing what a 28 can easily do.

So my question is, are 3" shells really needed or should we just move up one size? It is not like we don't have other options in most cases. It is sad to hear guns lament being left behind while we take out others just because we have 3" shells.

Not that I would ever admit it to my wife but I could cover everything with just a 12 and a .410. Half ounce up to well more than 1 1/2 ounce, all covered by two guns. It is just too simple. Thank goodness she never will learn it from me.

Well, some say weight is an issue with hunting guns so a 3" 20 will weigh less than a 12 most of the time.

Me? I am different!, I use a different gun for each dove outing from 410 to 10 gauge during the season. That way the gun crib stays in harmony.

Way to go! Five days, five guns in five different gauges, for me.

Probably. I would say single triggers on a double are from the same column of answers we didn't ask the question of, as well.
In Europe, a lot of the 28 gauge guns were chambered and proofed at 2 1/2".

Best,
Ted

Whatever it is, You don't have to buy it. If nobody else bought it, they wouldn't make it.

In some places we are restricted by law to twelve.
They only said how round & not how long.
Three is good in that condition.
Get a decent payload of steel with more oomph.
Who can complain.
O.M

We may be missing the obvious here. That there are thousands of homes where a .410 single shot is the only gun a kid has, or is the garden gun of the little old lady of the house. We have multiple guns, in multiple gauges, and can choose between any gauge we want. It's all disposable income for us.

I started out chasing quail, rabbits squirrels and doves with a .410 S x S at age 8. I never even saw a 2 1/2" shell until I was well into my middle age. There are lots of kids still like that, I believe. The 3/4 oz. loading is a great option in that gun.

I don't think the 3" shell is a solution to a problem. I don't think there is a problem there. It's just another choice. One that I happily embrace. I'm in the process of working up a 3" load of 3/4 oz. nickel plated 8s. It's just fun, but you're right, it's not something I need.

SRH

The 2 1/2 inch 28-gauge shell with a load of 1 3/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder pushing 5/8 ounce of shot was the "standard" in the U.S. from the 28-gauges's introduction until 1932. Unlike the 12-, 16- and 20-gauge shells in the first thirty years of the 20th Century which came in a plethora of lengths, the only optional length our North American ammunition companies offered for the 28-gauge was 2 7/8 inch which could be had with a slightly hotter 2 dram load pushing the same 5/8 ounce load. With bulk smokeless powder --



With dense smokeless powder --







In late 1931, Western Cartridge Co. introduced their 3/4 ounce 28-gauge progressive burning powder, high velocity, Super-X load put up in their 2 7/8 inch FIELD shell.





Shortly before the U.S. got into WW-II our ammunition companies began offering 28-gauge skeet loads put up in a 2 3/4 inch shell and shortly after WW-II they did away with the 2 1/2 and 2 7/8 inch lengths and standardized the 28-gauge in a 2 3/4 inch hull.

Thank you Researcher- your post are always great. I just love looking at the old ads and pictures.

I've always shot 3" steel at ducks (not counting the good ol' days of lead) and I bought some 2 3/4" steel a couple years ago on a whim, and they seem to be doing the job just fine for me. Love the low recoil.

Jon, actually you could cover everything with just the 12. But who wants to? Gil

I kinda misread your post Jon, in hindsight. Question now arises, are you thinking 3" 12 gauge shells are not needed? I'm pretty firmly ensconced in using 3" steel for ducks. If we had lead to use, I'd be happy with 2 3/4" baby magnums.

SRH

KY Jon,

In my particular case I like different Gauge double guns, for different purposes and different habitats. Habitat changes as the hunting season progresses, and so the double guns change with it.

In the early part of Grouse season when the habitat is like the Viet Nam Jungle here in Pa, Wva and NY I have been known to use my light 12 Gauge #3 L.C. Smith double gun with it's 26" barrels, and Fiocchi 2 3/4 shells, @1300 FPS or my 1920's LeFever/ Ithaca, on it's 16 Gauge frame, to shoot thru the heavy foliage, 8's under the 1st trigger, 6's under the 2nd, giving me a good chance to put down the escaping Grouse. This usually happens for a very short time, maybe 2 times at the beginning of the season. No 3" shells used in either of these double guns.

After that I use all my 16 Gauge Pre 1913 L.C. Smith double guns, and my 1889 J.P. Sauer bird gun, with 2 1/2" SpredR loads. I love these double guns in the Grouse woods. They have become an extension of my body.

Later when the leaves are mostly down I use my 20 Gauge H&R Double Hammer Gun, and my Grandfather's Special ordered pre 13 L.C Smith Silver Breech, with SpredR loads. Both these American Classics are a joy to both carry and shoot.

When the leaves are down I use my GreatGrandfather's Special Ordered 20 Gauge 1898 #2 L.C. Smith. Which some thieving fool, had permanent full length 28 Gauge inserts, custom installed by Briley long ago. We Just recovered this stolen gun a few years ago, with John Houchins help. I use SpredR loads most of the time in this custom made L.C. Smith 28. This beautiful little gun with it's incredible Kraus engraving has 28 Gauge 3" Chambers and I use it for jump shooting Wood Ducks from time to time also. During this time I also use the modern L.C. Smith 28 Gauge with B&P shells or SpredR's.

I like to use different double guns at different times.

Ryman Gun Dog

A few of the bird guns I talked about in the post.
The LeFever/Ithaca 12 Gauge on it's 16 Gauge Frame, on Top far right, under it the 1898 #2, under it the pre 13, 16 Gauge L.C Smith and last the 1889 J.P. Sauer 16 Gauge German Bird Gun.

Beautifully explained and stated, Stan. Good, clear thinking on this.
JR

I love a man with a plan, several of them in fact. And with such nice looking guns to play with.

Stan, I agree that due to circumstances the 3" 12 has a place since we can't use lead. But the 3" shell was invented before the need for steel came along. It was meant to replace the need for a 10. Gun makers sell versatility like shell length or screw in chokes so one gun or one gauge can do it all.

I also know you shoot a lot of 3" .410, where I shoot a lot of 2 1/2". Understanding the difference is 20-30% at best, not the 50% the increase in payload suggest. Pellets just wont distribute perfectly. I have to limit range more than you do. But in a .410 what does that mean in range? Five yards or eight yards max. On my best day a .410 is a 30-33 yards option, using 1/2 ounce, in a full choke, my average day 23-28 yards. I don't think I'd get more than a couple more yards with a 3".

I dislike 3 inch loads in 20 gauge because I prefer light weight 20 gauge double guns.
I see no reason to force 1 1/4 ounces of shot down a 20 gauge tube.
I cannot see a reason to lengthen the 28 gauge hull either.
I do shoot 3" 12 gauge steel out of an ugly camo gun.

No argument from me on your reasoning, buddy. I approach it from a little different perspective. I think I get 5+ yards more out of the 3" load, but maybe for a bit different reason. As I said earlier, I grew up shooting 3" .410 loads, and quickly learned their range limit in my J C Higgins Tenite stocked double. When I came back around to the little guns some years ago, for doves, I naturally began using 3" factory loads. My grandson was ready to begin his first season on doves with a Stoeger double 410. I decided to limit myself to one for "his sake", to show him the range limitations and that the little gun could really do the job on doves. We ended up, one day, using up our few 3" loads and only had 1/2 oz. loads to finish our afternoon. I was admittedly surprised at how well it knocked them down, but in reflection realized that almost none of the doves were DOA, but many were floppers and runners. Going back to 3" loads the next time, and comparing them to some more 1/2 oz. 2 1/2"ers, it was very apparent to me that I had way more dishragged doves with the heavier loads..................same size shot.

So, rather than hoping to extend range drastically with the magnum loads, I am using them to help ensure more DOA doves in the sunflowers, peanut and corn fields. My Cady was killed by a truck a little over a year ago, and I've not replaced her. So, it is incumbent upon me to help myself find every dove I knock down. As you know, they can run a few yards and hide amazingly well in a sunflower field with bare ground underneath.

Interesting discussion, but I'd sure rather be shooting them than talking about them!! 41 days and a wake-up...........

SRH

Stan, what size shot do you favor in the .410, 8 1/2, 8, 7 1/2 or 7’s? It’s all about trade offs sometimes. Shooters want more pellets, to have a better chance for hits but the smaller the pellet, the less energy to penetrate and penetration kills Dove. I tend towards 7’s if I can get them to reload with, 7 1/2 if I can’t. I won’t shoot anything smaller than 7 1/2’s at Dove but I know many swear by 8, 8 1/2 or 9’s. In a 12 you get so many more pellets to work, with even less penetration can be offset by multiple hits. No so on a .410 I’m afraid. On a passing Dove you only have two thirds of his body as a target. You can hit a Dove 20 times in the rear and he will fly off to die elsewhere.

I’ve done a lot of patterning of .410 loads. I’ve found with the 2 1/2”, 1/2 ounce load, if you drive it faster than about 1275 FPS my patterns fall off. I have had some loads which went 1350 FPS but the patterns were not at all consistent and everything has to be consistent with the .410. What I see with the 3” seems to hit that sweet spot at about 1125-1150. While slower works well in bigger bores for patterns it does not with the .410. I get too much center density with slower loads and not enough overall usable patterns. Too fast and you get blown patterns or one pattern which looks good and one which does not. Again, all about trade offs.

KY Jon,

You are right on the money, my testing with .410 shells shows the same thing yours does, and it can vary from gun to gun also. Now I just purchase the Win .410 shells off the shelf, making sure they are under 1275 FPS. I use the .410 for introducing my Gun Dog pups to gun fire, usually shooting Chukar for them after they do every thing correctly. When using the 2 1/2" shells to start out with, the gunner must be dead on the bird, having guys miss a number of kill shots with the old Savage O/U DT/DH gun, I started to investigate the shells I was using. Turns out the patterns were no where near consistent, so I started looking for different shells.

Ryman Gun Dog

I favor 8s in the early season, 7 1/2s after that. No other size for doves or quail in a .410. Anything larger than 7 1/2s would make my pattern too sparse I'm afraid, and I don't want anything smaller than 8s, because they shed energy too quickly. 8s out of a 410 are just as deadly as 8s out of a 12 ga.. If the bird is hit with the same number of shot it dies the same. I'd rather go with more choke to get the pattern density I need than with smaller shot. Just my experience. I am always open to suggestions, however.

The reason I don't like 9s is that I tried them once on doves and wild quail in a Powell 16 ga. m/l. The lower velocities I was loading them to didn't impress me at all, especially a going away quail. Doves would falter, lose feathers and keep flying. Didn't take me long to swear off 9s for my hunting. 8s or 7 1/2s did far, far better at the same mv.

I agree about the velocity for .410s. Most of mine do best at about the 1150 fps mv mark.

All my best, SRH

I was curious as to why the one "above" the 20 was a 12, with the 16 being skipped. I realize 14 ga guns exist, but the 16 is still in common enough use to count as the next one up from a 20. My 16's were all in the safe, and thus there were no hurt feelings.

Mike

Mike, it is simple numbers. 16's just are not that common any more. I have them and others do as well, but 98-99% of ammo sales are not in 16 gauges. The 12 has to be 70+% of ammo sales, then 20 are 20%. The 28 might be 3-4%, the .410 is another 4-5%.

As to the 20-16-12 difference. The 16 is stuck in a too small gap. A highly efficient 20 can duplicate a middle range 12 shell and the entire range of 16's. The 16 can be loaded up to 12 middle range range or down to 20 but not that well unless you reload. There are still a very limited number of factory shells to choose from. I did not mean to hurt any 16's feelings and please accept my apologies if I did.

Stan, I agree about shot as there is very little difference between 7, 7 1/2 and 8/'s in high quality shot. If I had to shoot a open choke .410 hunting, I would leave it at home, period. Like you I like choke and am not afraid of it in the .410 which is why I figured you were so concerned with convergence and POI in your guns earlier. If I wanted a big ass pattern I'd bring a 12. I find tight chokes, in a .410 are more workable, than many think. It is all about knowing where your POI is, getting a decent pattern density, with a workable size pattern.

You don't get good 20-24" wide .410 patterns, even with a 3" shell. Too much center density or the pattern just is too weak every where. Again with the trade offs. 2 1/2" ammo can give you 15-18" patterns with with enough density, you might get a little more with your 3" shell's heavier payload, but I have not had that much success getting that much of a wider pattern, without loosing center density.

A 3" shell, in a Skeet choke is not the answer. Been there and tried that. I think you have to drive that 11/16 or 3/4 ounce payload faster than 1125-1150 fps, in a tighter choke, than you are doing. With 300-mp, Remington hulls, Remington SP410 wads you might be able to do it but more likely at 11/16 than 3/4. But there is no published data so you need to create your own. I have loaded several loads in the past and had them pressure and velocity tested. If you are into uncharted loads, test ones both high and low, once you know the pressure is in a safe range you can try multiple loads in between, knowing you are safe. Then it is more about patterns, than velocity, after a point.

I've loaded 2 1/2", 1/2 ounce loads, which chronograph at almost 1425 fps. The patterns got better, when I backed them down into the 1250-1275 fps range but went bad again (too much center density) much below 1200, (1225-1150). I call it the sweet spot of velocity. I suspect you might get a 11/16 ounce, 3" load to push 1250 fps, without too much pressure and a decent pattern. I don't know if you can with a 3/4 ounce load. If not you best load is your best load, even if it is not what you set out to load.

Jon- Like I said, mine were all asleep in the safe- no harm, no foul. Maybe one reason so few 16 ga shells are sold is cuz we're stingy, and like to roll our own. It's been five to seven years since I bought any new shells in 16.

Also, as has been bashed around before, you can stuff a ton o' lead in the smaller bores, but what happens to the patterns? Also, the most vicious kicking gun I ever had the displeasure to shoot was a 20. Reminded me of the short time I owned a 375 H&H.

Anyway, good thoughts, and I always enjoy your posts.

Mike

I was born and raised a Farmer. I have been a firearms enthusiast from my first gun (a SxS dart gun and a wind-up rabbit) at age three. I was assigned pest control duties at age 7 to keep the rat, pigeon, starling and sparrow numbers at a minimum in the out-buildings. I started hunting on my own at age 9 with a .22lr. At age 11 I was given my first shotgun, a 12ga, 2-3/4", Coast-to-Coast pumpgun. I took every type of legal game with that gun. By my 16th year the short stock was making every shot taken a pain as my thumb would bust me in the nose. I bought my first gun that year, 1976. It was a Savage/Valmet 20ga, O/U. It was my only shotgun for the following ten years.

Where this is leading? I have never bought into the magnum mentality. If you can not hit your target; more shot, more velocity, and thus more recoil will not improve your condition. I have fired less than one box of three inch shells in my lifetime. I don't own a rifle labeled "Magnum".

Disclaimer: I have never been a habitual Waterfowl Hunter. Had I been, a 12ga would have come sooner.

Well written article on chamber lengths by Terry Wieland in the latest issue of Gray’s Sporting Journal (August 2018).

I don't consider myself as having bought into the magnum mentality either. The term magnum, as applied to ammunition, is rather vague anyway.............mostly hype. It certainly doesn't necessarily mean higher velocity. I certainly am not a proponent of trying to make super-duper hotrod loads out of all standard ones. This project of trying to create a 3/4 oz. nickel plated load for the .410s is not a crutch to make me a better shot, in order to improve my condition. It is being done simply because that load cannot be bought anywhere, and it's fun creating it. Winchester has been offering a 3/4 oz. regular lead shot loading for many years, and they shoot very well out of some of my .410s.

I tip my hat to the man who is a superb wing shot. I care not whether he is using something that has had the "magnum" label attached to it. If he can shoot a "magnum" really well, he can probably wipe your eye with a shortie load, too. But, sadly, many cannot, and think bigger is always better.

SRH

Yep, bigger is better won. When I mentioned three-inch Model 500 SKB 20 ga in starter gun-thread, length-distinction intended it's there only if the shooter felt it was needed. Lighter guns are important at each end of life's engagement.

With the forced change to non-tox, 3" shells came in to their own. Especially in 20ga. Bismuth and the other steel substitutes help but are expensive and still not up to lead unless you spring for the heavy weights like TSS or Heavy-shot.

High speed steel in 3" number twos bring down prairie mallards and big Canadas with authority in 12ga or 20ga. High speed steel kicks a lot though. I've never been recoil shy until lately. Could be I'm getting into the wrong end of 'life's engagement'...Geo

More like this recoil is not required to do the job than gun-shy, Geo? I wouldn't own hard-kicking when there are lots of shotguns, rifles and ammunition to provide satisfactory results without it. My experience on geese with 20ga Bismuth 3" 1 1/8, 1250fps No 4 relates to yours. The sight of it has always taken away recoil, and I'm really getting up there..

Ryman Gun Dog, could you elaborate on this gun please? This is a Syracuse gun? Do you know what year Smith began offering 20 bore?

Anyone else who can add color, please chime in.


- NDG

LC Smith guys? Can you chime in on when 20 bore and 16 bore were first offered? And is it known (or best guessed) the number of Syracuse Smiths which were sub-gauge?

Thanks for thoughts.

- NDG

Most grouse in Maine are road or tree-wrenched. Spend time walking the unpaved woods roads and rail beds and note the 3" .410 empties. Lots of them.

Not just that - they're mostly stamped #6 or #4. There's a reason: put such loads on paper at 40 yds using a "full" stamped 42, 37....or any of a slew of other single shot hammerguns.

Nudge,

The Baker Gun Company sold it's business to the Hunter Brothers who had some unknown silent investors backing them in 1888. However in 1884 L.C. Smith started making Hammer Guns in Syracuse, Ny. It was estimated by Bill Brophy from the old records he found that about 3,792 Hammer guns were built from 1884 to 1886 in Syracuse. In 1887 2,165 L.C. Smith guns, both Hammerless and Hammer guns were sold, before L.C. Smith sold the company to the Hunter Brothers. All this information is in Bill Brophy's Book, The L.C. Smith Shotgun. These guns were 12 and 10 Gauge guns. See the full historical write up in Bill's Book.

Unfortunately the only other remaining artifacts/documentation on the Syracuse operation are the hand written notes from Lyman C.Smith to his brother George, in a little note book that Bill Brophy recovered long ago from the Hunter Arms building in Fulton, NY.

The Hunter Arms - L.C. Smith 20 Gauge #1 Gun was available in 1907. However in 1892 the L.C Smith A2, 20 Gauge could be special ordered. Some Hunter Arms pre production 20 Gauge guns were special made to order, prior to 1907.

My Great Grandfather's 1898, 20 gauge #2 gun was a pre production Special ordered gun. The only one of it's kind known to Bill Brophy.

I recommend you purchase both Lt Col William S. Brophy, USAR Retired - The L.C. Smith Shotguns and John Houchin's - L.C. Smith "The Legend Lives" Lots of great L.C. Smith historical information in both books. As Bill Brophy indicated it was impossible to provide all the historical information in his L.C. Smith book.

Nudge I accidentally wrote 1889 instead of 1898 in the prior post you quoted when talking about the special order #2 Gun.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

Ryman,

OK, your clarification on 1889 vs 1898 likely is explanation enough. Thanks for that.

As for the timeline of events you depicted, if that is an accurate account of what Brophy wrote, he was in error regarding the Smith-to-Hunter transition. It omits the entirety of the "LC Smith,Maker" years. LCSCA guys can jump in and explain more succinctly than I likely can.

Brophy and Houchins are both well known to all on this forum.

- NDG

Nudge,

Bill Covers the L.C. Smith, Maker years also, purchase both his L.C. Smith books. He also wrote a parts and Spec's book.

Bill made no errors, in what he wrote, some omissions as he noted.

Dave B. - L.C.Smith Man