For years I have looked at the barrels and I have always seen the frame size,ie,1, 1.5, 2, 3, ect. I just picked up a "P" grade with Parker steel barrels and it is marked 12? Can anyone provide some insite into this marking?

Thanks bill

Half frame.(edit: this was supposed to be a question, not a statement of fact.)
JR

The PH-/PHE-Grade was several years discontinued before the 1/2 frame came along.

The gauge was often stamped on the bottom of the lug as well as the frame size as on this 0-frame 20-gauge --

Sometimes the gauge is stamped along with the frame size. So that is what the 12 may be. But the frame size would be there also. Or it was removed or worn off.

1/2 size stamps would be stamped exactly like that. Not as 12.

Sometimes, not often, the frame size was not stamped on the lug and just the gauge was... other times the frame size was stamped there but the gauge wasn't. Most often both the frame size and the gauge were stamped. Measure the exact distance in sixteenths of an inch between firing pin centers to determine the frame size.

The action is within a few thousand of an inch of a 1.5 frame. 12 is the only number other than the weight of the barrels.

Bill

Bill, what is the exact distance between firing pin centers?

A frame size 1 and a frame size 1 1/2 share the same measurement between firing pin centers of 1 1/16"

1" would make it a 0-frame
1 1/8" would be a 2-frame
1 3/16" would be a 3-frame....

Usinng a dial caliper and an experienced eye ball, I get 1.170
At the widest point the standing breach measures 2.290. sn is
192706, straight stock and 28 inch tubes.

Bill

Using an online converter 1.170" falls somewhere between 1 2/16" and 1 3/16" so it is most likely a 2-frame (1 2/16"), there having been scarce few 3-frame 12 gauge Parkers made.

Dean

A 2 frame = 1.125"
A 3 frame = 1.1875"
1.170" is thus .045" larger than a 2 frame but only .0175" smaller than a 3.
It is thus about 2½ times closer to the 3 than the 2.
I guess one could just say "It Is What it Is".

It MUST be one or the other.... Parker Bros never made a 2 3/4 frame.

"" sn is 192706, straight stock and 28 inch tubes.""

Who has "The Book" and what does it say?

The Serialization Book won't give the frame size.

Bill, it is very hard to measure hole centers with a Vernier caliper. Such a device is used to measure objects with square ends. You are better to measure hole centers in breech faces with a machinist's scale. You don't have to identify the center of the holes, just identify the edges of the holes, a much more accurate measurement.

I have no problems at all measuring firing pin hole centers using a set of calipers. Matters not if they are Vernier, Dial or Digital except as to how they are read. Vernier's are the hardest to read but have the advantage of having nothing what-so-ever to get out of adjustment. I still have 2 or 3 vernier calipers from my machinist days which I use rather frequently. Also have a 6" Starrett Dial caliper which I use a lot for the ease of reading with my Old Eyes.

The calipers all read to .001" while the smallest graduation I recall ever seeing on a machinist scale was .010" so a bit of interpolation is need if you want it closer than that. If the scale is all in fractions, which many are, then the smallest increment is normally 1/64" (.0164"). I can Certainly read it closer than that with calipers.

eightbore, as a former engineering supervisor at Chrysler's Trenton Engine Plant (2.5 million sq. ft. machine shop) I agree with you. Also my method was a bit casual. By carefully checking from the outside of one hole to the inside of the other and then reverseing directions I get an average of 1.128. I believe this a good solid number and seems to indicate #2 frame. We had a tolerance of 3 light bands on water pump seals, try to measure that!
bill

Without seeing just how "Casual" your first method of measuring was I will not comment on that.

I will say though having used measuring tools, including micrometers, calipers, scales etc on a daily basis for 35+ years an error of .042" (1.170"-1.128") was not a direct result of choosing dial calipers for the measurement.

While we are Bragging, Closest parts I ever had to build had a tolerance of +.00005 -.00000. They were measured on a Browne & Sharpe Super Mic which one looked into a window & watched for a light beam to bend to get consistent pressure on the anvil. Thimble was at least 6" in diameter so even the .0001" (1 ten thousandths inch) marks were around .075" apart.
I have also lapped parts where we had a tolerance of "1" light band. Is that a match??

.042" is near 3/64", I could measure a firing pin hole's spacing closer than that with a Harbour Freight Tape measure.

PS; I'm through patting myself on the back for now, pass the linement Please.

Guys, it's not that complicated - we're talking sixteenths of an inch. No, it's not going to be precise but it will be closer to one sixteenth or the next...

Eightbore pretty much nailed as for ease of measuring - that being from the edge of one hole to the corresponding edge of the other hole... pretty simple really.

One thing I try not to do measuring is convert. While I like to work in decimal inches with a micrometer/dial/digital caliper, I have metric mikes and dial/digitals as well as fraction veneer calipers.

Looking for Parker pin spacing in 16ths machinist rule calibrated in fractions gives me fast accurate readings.

Boats.

Are you sure about that, Dean?

1 inch = 25.4 mm's. I keep my little Casio pocket calculator handy at all times. I can convert easier than reading those metric tools unless it is a digital, which I have not acquired one of. I still use my "Old Fashioned" tools to measure Old Fashioned guns.

It is utterly amazing the fits old timers gut using nothing nothing but a pair of spring joint calipers, one inside & one outside. When I was an apprentice one old timer told me about working in a railroad shop in his younger days. He described how he had to fit a large diameter wheel for a Shrink fit to an existing band using spring joint calipers. The inside one was set to the ID of the band & the outside one set to the inside one. The wheel was turned down until the caliper could be "Sprung" across the top. When he got ¼" Drag, IE the distance from where the caliper got tight on one side to here it loosened after dragging over the top on the other side the amount of Shrink was perfect. The band would then be heated & placed on the wheel & when cool it was shrunk to Stay, Permanently.

Never sell old timers short.

I can tell the difference between a 1 1/8" & a 1 3/16" firing pin spacing using nothing more than a cloth tape measure from Joann's, I can certainly do it using a precision set of calipers, & that's just stating facts, not bragging, just to keep the record straight.

Nope - you caught me. I was mistaken, it's the 1 1/2 and the 2 frames that share the 1 1/8" measurement.

naughty, naughty, naughty...

where is mr know hit awl dudley? bout time for him to chime in...

Sounds like a set of home-made gauges would go a long ways for anyone who frequently checks Parker pin spacing. Do Parker frame heights correspond to their sizes as well, or did they primarily focus on width?

Several measurements of the frame are frame-number specific.

Pin separation.
Width of an individual barrel tube at the breech.
Height of firing pin centers (bore center) from water table.
Width of extractor.
Width of beads where they contact the water table.
Height of bottom of rib extension from water table.

Page 47 of the Parker Gun Identification & Serilization book covers all of this and lists the measurements for each.

Piss off ed.

point well taken dudley...same to you...

This is the kind of crap we get on a forum with no moderation!

Where is Gladys Kravitz and the other Thread Police when we need them?

speaking of crap...keet has appeared here once again...we all like keith so much better...

Did you see his use of Newton and Hook laws from mechanics to explain recoil? He's probably upset we still use outdated and stupid English system to measure and weigh things. Using metric (SI) would make our lives so much easier.

jager: your criticism of keith and his choice of measuring systems is not appropriate...if you continue this practice, keet will surely resurface...

What about height from water table to bottom of frame? Or top of standing breech to bottom of frame?

The dimensions of the different frame sizes that Parker made are well documented and available.

It makes me wonder how we are up to 4 pages on this topic.

could be dudley, that because you nor anyone else has posted a link to the parker frame size documentation that you allude to above...we just continue to babble on here, like the social and gregarious creatures that make us normal human beings...

Buy a book...

Or visit the PGCA site.

or share your knowledge here...wid us babblers...