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Posted By: canvasback Help Identifying Damascus - 04/14/18 01:22 PM
Hoping someone can help identify the Damascus pattern on these barrels. Nitro proofed from between 1905 and 1910 from my preliminary investigation. I know nothing.

Thanks for any help.

Posted By: LeFusil Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/14/18 01:26 PM
4 iron Crolle, Turkish. Best quality. Barrels built by T. Kilby?
Posted By: canvasback Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/14/18 02:00 PM
Originally Posted By: LeFusil
4 iron Crolle, Turkish. Best quality. Barrels built by T. Kilby?


No idea. Would there be initials or any kind of marking that indicates Kilby's involvement?

Not mine yet so don't feel like spending the 50 pounds to get info from Boss just yet.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/14/18 02:05 PM
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/21596890
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/14/18 02:19 PM




Probably akin to the above from:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post313068




Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: canvasback Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/14/18 03:34 PM
I'm not seeing anything on the flats that I can identify as relating to Kilby. There is nothing on the tubes but serial numbers and the words BOSS.



Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/14/18 08:48 PM
No "CL" anywhere?
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/14/18 09:33 PM
Since "Boss" is stamped on the tubes ahead of the flats and near the short rib I'm wondering if Boss stitched the barrels themselves. Their name is where one frequently sees the initials for the outworker.
Posted By: LeFusil Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/14/18 09:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Lloyd3
No "CL" anywhere?


By the time this Boss was made...CL was long out of the commercial barrel building business. The only guns with a CL, would’ve been CL guns.
Posted By: Stallones Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/15/18 01:06 PM
I believe the barrel is 3 bar Oxford. Too open for 4 bar
Posted By: RichardBrewster Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/15/18 01:33 PM
Canvasback notes that the barrels were "Nitro proofed from between 1905 and 1910 from my preliminary investigation." But what is the date the gun was originally made per the Boss records? The Damascus pattern is Turkish or so-called English Best. I am very familiar with a Boss side-snap made in 1886 that has the same Damascus pattern. The barrels on the Boss I am referring to were stamped 'CL', indicating that barrel work was done by Lancaster. That does not necessarily mean that the Damascus tubes were manufactured by Lancaster. Based on sources Doc Drew has provided, the tubes themselves could be Belgian. Here are his wonderful quotes:

Thomas Webley c. 1879, in John Henry Walsh's "The Shotgun" said "Quite three-fourths of the tubes used in Birmingham are Belgian make, and nearly all the London trade use them."

And James Purdey II admitted as much c. 1890 when he wrote that he preferred Damascus to steel barrels, but acknowledged that "...weight for weight steel is stronger than iron and shoots harder, though not of so handsome an appearance as damascus barrels." He favored Belgian damascus because "...not that when thorough sound English damascus can be obtained they are not superior, but because Belgian workmen are more careful than English, and there is thus less risk of slag and rubbish getting into the welds." I don't think there is a visible trace of "slag or rubbish" in the barrels shown in Canvasback's pictures.

Very difficult, if not impossible, to know for sure, but tubes made by a London maker, at least from the time of the Webley quote (1879) forward, could have been Belgian tubes finished and fitted by the English trade in London or Birmingham, since no less than James Purdey II favored Belgian Damascus over English because "Belgian workmen are more careful than English."
Posted By: canvasback Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/15/18 02:00 PM
I'm basing the age on the serial number guide in Nigel Brown's British Gunmakers. He lists serial # range from 4700 to 6000 as dating between 1900 and 1910. These numbers are 5819 & 5820.

Brown also notes Boss had a habit of assigning serial numbers from when the "barrels are first lumped up together". I'm not sure how that tidbit would affect the dating of the barrels. However the gun could have been made years later if that's true.

The seller and I can't agree on a price so I most definitely will not be getting the Boss records.

Thanks all for your input.
Posted By: LeFusil Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/15/18 02:17 PM
Originally Posted By: RichardBrewster
Canvasback notes that the barrels were "Nitro proofed from between 1905 and 1910 from my preliminary investigation." But what is the date the gun was originally made per the Boss records? The Damascus pattern is Turkish or so-called English Best. I am very familiar with a Boss side-snap made in 1886 that has the same Damascus pattern. The barrels on the Boss I am referring to were stamped 'CL', indicating that barrel work was done by Lancaster. That does not necessarily mean that the Damascus tubes were manufactured by Lancaster. Based on sources Doc Drew has provided, the tubes themselves could be Belgian. Here are his wonderful quotes:

Thomas Webley c. 1879, in John Henry Walsh's "The Shotgun" said "Quite three-fourths of the tubes used in Birmingham are Belgian make, and nearly all the London trade use them."

And James Purdey II admitted as much c. 1890 when he wrote that he preferred Damascus to steel barrels, but acknowledged that "...weight for weight steel is stronger than iron and shoots harder, though not of so handsome an appearance as damascus barrels." He favored Belgian damascus because "...not that when thorough sound English damascus can be obtained they are not superior, but because Belgian workmen are more careful than English, and there is thus less risk of slag and rubbish getting into the welds." I don't think there is a visible trace of "slag or rubbish" in the barrels shown in Canvasback's pictures.

Very difficult, if not impossible, to know for sure, but tubes made by a London maker, at least from the time of the Webley quote (1879) forward, could have been Belgian tubes finished and fitted by the English trade in London or Birmingham, since no less than James Purdey II favored Belgian Damascus over English because "Belgian workmen are more careful than English."


Was the Boss you mentioned rebarreled by Lancaster? I find it odd that a gun made during that time would have CL barrels. There were after all, competitors. CL marked barrels on other guns would usually be older hammer guns, muzzle loaders, etc.
Like I mentioned earlier.....Ive found during research I’ve conducted on CL (my favorite maker) by the time the 1880’s rolled around, CL was out of the barrel making business and making actual guns and competing with other top London makers.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/15/18 02:47 PM
c. 1824 Purdey 20g percussion fowler with Charles Lancaster Stub Twist barrels



The barrels are indeed 4 Iron (Turkish) British Best; 3 full scrolls between two 1/2 scrolls. IMHO they were Belgian sourced.
BTW Bro. Culver would see 3 'zipper' welds between each straight ribband edge weld wink



I wonder if the barrels were originally 'black & white' and intended for the North American market
Posted By: canvasback Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/15/18 02:47 PM
LeFusil, it has been speculated here that the barrels may have been by CL. Zero markings to that effect. The ONLY markings on the barrels, other than what can be seen on the flats in my photos, are the serial numbers and the name "BOSS".

There is no CL anywhere.
Posted By: LeFusil Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/15/18 03:05 PM
Originally Posted By: canvasback
LeFusil, it has been speculated here that the barrels may have been by CL. Zero markings to that effect. The ONLY markings on the barrels, other than what can be seen on the flats in my photos, are the serial numbers and the name "BOSS".

There is no CL anywhere.


CB,
I was referring to the 1886 Boss that Mr Brewster was talking about...not “your” gun. Sorry for the confusion.

Yes, in 1824.....CL was arguably the best barrel maker in England. Lots of panache attached to the CL barrel brand.
Posted By: RichardBrewster Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/15/18 03:46 PM
LeFusil, The Boss I mentioned has serial number 3857, which appears on the barrels, forend iron and the receiver. On the underside of the barrels on both tubes "CL" appears in front of the serial number. The top rib is marked "Boss & Co. 73 St. James's Street London". The Boss has a Perkes side snap action. Nothing to indicate it was ever rebarreled. According to Boss's records, the gun was one of a pair sold in 1886 to J.C. Ingram of Hyde Park, London.
Posted By: canvasback Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/15/18 03:49 PM
LOL, So it's me who can't read. Sorry about that. blush
Posted By: LeFusil Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/15/18 04:11 PM
Originally Posted By: RichardBrewster
LeFusil, The Boss I mentioned has serial number 3857, which appears on the barrels, forend iron and the receiver. On the underside of the barrels on both tubes "CL" appears in front of the serial number. The top rib is marked "Boss & Co. 73 St. James's Street London". The Boss has a Perkes side snap action. Nothing to indicate it was ever rebarreled. According to Boss's records, the gun was one of a pair sold in 1886 to J.C. Ingram of Hyde Park, London.


Pretty cool. This Boss is definitely the latest gun I’ve ever heard of bearing the CL mark on the barrels that was not an actual C. Lancaster made gun. I’m speculating that the tubes might have been “old stock” that sat around for years until they were made into a useable barrel set. Totally possible. Wasn’t too long ago G. Greener, Tandy, Dryhurst found a good number of “new” Damascus barrels that were stored in barrels, perfectly preserved.
Posted By: SKB Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/15/18 04:29 PM
Johnson's just posted a photo this morning on Facebook of some just finished Greener 8 bore barrels. I'm sure from the find you referred
to. Pretty sure Peter Higgins was the barrel man. What a beauty.
Posted By: Roy Hebbes Re: Help Identifying Damascus - 04/16/18 03:13 PM
Canvas back,Best English Stub Damascus.
Posted By: RichardBrewster Re: Boss side snap - 04/23/18 11:26 AM
Canvasback, I have a beautiful Boss with a Perkes side snap, c. 1886. If you are interested, please email me at RichardBrewster41@gmail.com.
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