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Posted By: topgun Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/02/18 05:38 PM
A gentleman from Syracuse, NY called recently to tell me he’d just taken in a Syracuse Arms 12-bore gun described as a Grade "D3" Live Bird gun; made an offer I thought fair, and here it is. I’m not sure that any of us have actually seen a SAC “live bird” gun other than the pics of the early Grade BE example at the NRA museum; thus I suppose we can assume examples are certainly uncommon, and certainly this is the only example I’ve ever handled. Although the story can’t be authenticated, the seller said the gun came into his shop from an individual who had purchased the gun from an old estate there in Syracuse, NY; whether that meant this gun had remained within the family of the original owner or not since it was new he couldn’t say, but the gun was never abused and remains in very nice condition. This gun was obviously built for trap or pigeon shooting, as it is noticeably heavier than normal; and was made with the following stock dimensions: 14 3/4” LOP x 2 ¼” drop at comb x 2 ½” drop at heel. It also features a differently shaped comb than the typical SAC gun from this period, and the comb on this example closely resembles the combs featured on post-1900 Smith guns. But straight stocked SAC guns of any style seem to be very uncommon (I’ve recorded 5 examples). This SAC gun is an early example and probably made around 1895 or 1896, as it features the early “V” spring forend fastener. When the seller initially gave me the grade as “D3”, I was super excited as the only other Grade D3 I’ve recorded was the presentation grade 10-bore featured in a DGJ article 4-5 years ago. And although this gun has nice wood and an unusual feature or two, it’s otherwise about as plain as an old shoe; and for whatever it’s worth I’ve not a clue as to the meanings of the Syracuse Arms Co "D3" Grade stamp, nor any of the other early Hollenbeck and Syracuse Grade "D" stamps for that matter. Thus far I’ve seen two SAC guns stamped “D3”, two stamped “D2”, and several stamped “D”; no two have been alike and all have varied in decoration from very little (such as this example) to presentation quality. That changed after 1900, as from about 25XXX and up there is much more consistency within the features of the "D" Grade SAC gun examples I’ve seen).

This "D3" gun features virtually the same engraving coverage and style seen on the early Grade 1 Twist barreled SAC guns (I’ve actually seen Grade 1’s with more engraving), the wood quality would be equivalent to what I’ve observed on early Grade A and Grade B guns; and so is the quality of the Damascus barrels. The double line border around the checkered panels is a nice touch, as is the manner in which both grip panels meet at the top of the wrist behind the top strap. One nice touch was the way in which the tip of the lower tang is finished off; as opposed to being finished with a sharp point, it has been rounded and reshaped a bit. The only thing I could determine as to after-market modification/repair is that the original opening lever was replaced at some point, as the replacement lever and screw are not presently engraved; but would have been originally. The gun still retains a high percentage of its original Damascus barrel pattern/finish, traces of case color, bores are in great condition, screw slots still remain sharp; and the original early style dog's head butt plate has survived in superb condition. Dr. Drew will lend a hand by posting pix soon; but for now, and since my cell phone efforts were pathetic, he's suggested I come up with pix that will actually be legible. Although certainly not the prettiest SAC gun I’ve ever owned, this example is still a very, very nice piece; and a seldom seen and extremely unusual SAC gun. Perhaps this unique piece will make for an interesting discussion; and I'll get those photos as soon as possible.
Posted By: Chris Baumohl Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/02/18 07:29 PM
certainly a nice tease.................
Posted By: 67galaxie Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/02/18 08:15 PM
I would love to see it! Great find! Since we have so many members from GA we need to get together and come up with an event
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/02/18 08:30 PM
Sporting Life began reporting the gun, powder and shell used by competitors at major shoots starting in 1895.
The first listing of a Syracuse Arms was at the 1899 GAH, used by the well known shooter George S. Mosher, of Syracuse, N.Y. and manager of SAC
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1899/VOL_33_NO_05/SL3305013.pdf
He had the only Syracuse at the 1900 GAH
None listed at the 1901 GAH

Made manager of SAC
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_25_NO_05/SL2505015.pdf

1895 Sportmen's Show
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_25_NO_09/SL2509025.pdf

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_26_NO_04/SL2604011.pdf

He competed at the 1895 N.Y. State Ass. Championship but the report doesn't list his gun
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_25_NO_15/SL2515025.pdf

1895 "shooting a 10 1/2 # Hollenbeck gun"
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_26_NO_02/SL2602013.pdf

1896 Sportsmen's Show
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1896/VOL_26_NO_26/SL2626012.pdf

1897
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1897/VOL_30_NO_14/SL3014024.pdf

1898
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_26/SL3026021.pdf

He ended his association in 1901
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1901/VOL_37_NO_12/SL3712030.pdf

1905 he was a Lefever rep
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1905/VOL_45_NO_08/SL4508022.pdf
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1905/VOL_45_NO_10/SL4510023.pdf

1907 A.H. Fox
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1907/VOL_48_NO_18/SL4818013.pdf

COULD IT BE GEORGE'S?

When other than "through a glass darkly" images appear, they'll be posted wink
Posted By: topgun Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/02/18 09:22 PM
That is an interesting question Drew, for while inspecting the gun last evening; I removed the butt plate and found what appears to be a name lightly written in pencil on the butt. Unfortunately, my eye balls, as is the case with the rest of my bod, are old and I simply couldn't make out the inscription well enough to read what had been written. The primary reason, besides my eyes, was that the name/inscription was written over a very rough surface; seems a router bit had be used on the end of the butt for some unknown purpose, and that factor combined with the lightest of the pencil mark made reading a challenge. At any rate I'll keep trying; but it sure would be nice if the name did indeed turn out to be an individual we know from history.
Posted By: John E Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/02/18 09:42 PM
Tom,

Certainly a very nice and rare example of a Hollenbeck gun. Photograghy in varied lighting might lift that name. Anxiously awaiting more pictures and history.

John
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/03/18 02:26 AM
Tom is working on images that would do the gun justice, but in the interim

Posted By: B. Dudley Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/03/18 12:40 PM
That forend loop looks interesting...
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/03/18 02:07 PM
Bro. Tom is trying. I had to get a neighborhood 10 year old to help me when I first started at this wink

Posted By: topgun Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/03/18 03:41 PM
Thanks Drew, and for the curious, the above SAC gun is grade stamped "O1"; the "O" designation indicating the gun shipped with Twist Steel barrels ("New Twist"). As to the "1" stamp, best I can theorize is that the "1" stamp denotes engraving coverage equivalent the early and discontinued Grade 1 Twist barrel model (this gun is numbered in the 18XXX range). I'm assuming this grade moniker was used because 1) the Grade 1 had been dropped by this time frame; and 2) the frames on the Grade O Twist barreled guns (Grade O in production since company inception,)never featured engraving. At one time I speculated that this gun represented a special ordered given it's engraving and outstanding English walnut stock, but I've recently seen two other examples for sale on GB with the same "O1" Grade stamp. Both were ragged-out relics in the same serial number range, both had very plain wood; and one was not engraved at all? So now I'm inclined to think these guns were custom built to fill a order for one of their dealers; or perhaps part of a sales company promotion? Who can say; but one will see a large number of high grade guns of all makes that won't have figured stocks equal to the color and figure found in this piece of English (photo doesn't do this wood justice). And for whatever it's worth, this is one of my favorite SAC guns; and is memorable to me in that I used this piece to bag the only collared doves I've had a chance to shoot.
Posted By: Ghostrider Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/03/18 04:36 PM
Tom thts one great looking gun. Nice find.
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/03/18 08:13 PM
Always love their "duck bill" forend and "Yuge" trigger guards.

Tom, it would be such a blessing if you allowed a shop to make a pattern from a graded SAC gunstock. Even if it was just for the next guy. Their lines are quite unique.
Posted By: topgun Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/03/18 10:01 PM
CZ, I know of no reason why we couldn't arrange to make a pattern stock at some point; and I'll work with you to do so as soon as time permits. The neatest SAC stocks in my opinion are found on the later Grades B, C, and D; and one will often find unique differences. Some of the nicest stocks I've seen have been on the second model B Grades (and probably because one seldom sees a late C or D Grade). These guns usually feature very nicely figured and colored stock wood, and those with carved layering around the checkered cheek panels are the most appealing. The most unusual B Grade stock I've seen to date is on a battered and abused BE in the 32XXX range. In addition to the standard beautiful wood, checkered and carved cheek panels, "S" shaped full pistol grip, and uniquely shaped SAC comb; this gun was ordered without the ebony forend tip, and the "S" shaped full pistol grip was ordered capped so that it's surface is now flat. Never seen another SAC gun with either of these features; and it must have taken some time to shape and fit the back side of the pistol grip cap to the "S" contour of that stock. This gun was also ordered with the pointing dog on the left side of the frame looking backwards towards the shooter; but I've seen that backwards dog theme on two other Grade B guns. I probably bore the hello out of many folks when it comes to SAC guns; but I personally find them extremely interesting.
Posted By: Ian Nixon Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/04/18 02:53 AM
Tom, you don't "bore the hello" outta me.
Keep it coming, man!!
If'n a "Show & Tell" at Sanford (a la Dr. Bill) - count me IN.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/05/18 05:03 PM
Bro. Tom is trying, and I'm trying to enhance the images

Looks like it was G.W. Harrison



No hits in Sporting Life under C.W. or G.W. so he apparently was not a prominent shooter

Possibly him in 1893
West Virginia Central and Pittsburgh Railway
https://books.google.com/books?id=2wpPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA161&lpg

In 1912 he was Secy. of the New York State Association of County Agricultural Societies
https://books.google.com/books?id=0WV4n21P09gC&pg=PA841&lpg

1915 represented the New York Dept. of Agriculture
https://books.google.com/books?id=KAf4SVzXrHMC&pg=PA362&lpg
Posted By: Karl Graebner Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/05/18 07:15 PM
Fascinating possibility of the gun's history.
Karl
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/05/18 09:30 PM
Best we can do, which is not quite fair to this neat gun



For Brian



Forend tip. The barrels are 3 Iron "Oxford" similar to Parker D3 on GH



No safety

Posted By: topgun Re: Syracuse Arms Live Bird Gun - 04/05/18 09:45 PM
Brain
Frank Hollenbeck designed the "V" spring forend fastener seen on this gun. That feature/device was in production beginning with Frank's prototype, but had been entirely discontinued prior to serial number 8,000; and replaced by a "J" spring type fastener (Hollenbeck was long gone from the gun works when that change was made). It's a great feature as far as providing a very easy way to get a forend on and off a set of barrel, but it didn't serve to keep the forend tight against the knuckle of the frame; and, at least from my personal experience, it wasn't a stout enough spring and allowed the forend to occasionally spring loose on recoil. The SAC gun was improved when the "V" spring fastener was dropped.
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